toygeek writes:
This lighter than air wind turbine flies atop tethers to supply power for remote villages, bases, mines, or disaster zones. It can also lift communications equipment such as cellular transceivers or meteorological devices and other sensing equipment. From the article:
Unlike its earth-bound brethren, the airborne turbine is not intended to supply power for large electric grids. Instead, its sweet spot is serving far-flung villages, military bases, mines, or disaster zones. Various researchers have been developing floating wind turbines for years, but the 18-month project in Alaska will be the first longer-term, commercial project to test the technology, according to Altaeros.
Altaeros' Buoyant Airborne Turbine (BAT) is an inflatable, helium-filled ring with a wind turbine suspended inside. It will float at a height of 300 meters, where winds tend to be far stronger than they are on the ground. The altitude of the BAT is about double the hub height of the world's largest wind turbine.
The BAT has a power capacity of 30 kilowatts and will create enough energy to power about 12 homes, the company says. But that's just the beginning. It can also lift communications equipment such as cellular transceivers or meteorological devices and other sensing equipment. Altaeros said additional equipment does not affect the energy performance of the turbine.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 27 2014, @04:32AM
highly flammable but nevertheless circumvented the globe.
why not let the turbine self-inflate itself by using its electricity
and some water? just don't place it around new york.
(Score: 3, Informative) by wonkey_monkey on Thursday March 27 2014, @08:11AM
Back to Chem 101 for you.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk
(Score: 5, Informative) by aristarchus on Thursday March 27 2014, @08:41AM
Back to Physics 99 for you! Parent was proposing hydrogen rather than helium. Though that does pose something of a "chicken and the egg" problem: turbine cannot get aloft until enough Hydrogen generated, and turbine cannot generate any Hydrogen until aloft. See what I mean, there?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 27 2014, @10:41AM
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 27 2014, @02:40PM
> AC made a dumb post
Or is dumb as a post.
(Score: 2) by SleazyRidr on Thursday March 27 2014, @02:20PM
I'll agree with the sister AC that the OP was probably just making a dumb post, but maybe if you kicked it off with a cylinder of helium, then it generated it's own hydrogen to offset the losses. You could probably run it for a while before you had a dangerous gas mixture.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Solaarius on Thursday March 27 2014, @04:50AM
This is neat! Good idea for disaster relief, especially if they add cell towers to it.
Wonder what the typical time aloft is, before they have to top up the helium?
It's not really in the same category as permanent wind generators, though. Only 30kW vs 8MW for the biggest offshore ones today.
(Score: 5, Informative) by frojack on Thursday March 27 2014, @04:52AM
I've seen first hand the winds in some of the rural Alaskan villages. I've seen them blow up in ha hurry and die just as quickly. When you look for your floating wind turbine in the morning you will find it in the Yukon Territory or further east.
Regular [fireislandwind.com] windmills work just fine in Alaska [kodiakelectric.com], and they are still there in the morning.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Thursday March 27 2014, @07:02PM
I'm more worried about people passing the long cold days with too much alcohol and too many guns.
Finding your turbine in the Yukon is a lot better than on top of your house.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 27 2014, @05:57AM
The last I checked we are using up helium faster than it is replenishing. We shouldn't be wasting helium on balloons (there are cheaper alternatives).
Seems like a solution in search of a problem.
The only valid one seems to be a meteorological device that itself requires a balloon/blimp to do its main job. But that'll be really niche - I don't see big market for meteorological devices that use lots of power and only need to float to a max of a few hundred metres or so (can't generate as much electricity from the wind if drifting with the wind and not tethered to the ground).
The rest all can be served by ground based ones - just need to design them to be easily transported and deployed.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by ls671 on Thursday March 27 2014, @11:38AM
The problem is the foundations of the turbines. It is really hard to move around. Foundations are massive because you do not want steel cables to keep the turbines straight; it constitutes a hazard for the blades and steel cables would have to clear the bottom of the blades anyway.
https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=wind+turbine +foundation&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=aQs 0U_2DCuHesAT3zIG4Cg&ved=0CDAQsAQ&biw=1152&bih=673 [google.com]
Everything I write is lies, including this sentence.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 27 2014, @09:16PM
You don't seem to realize that most of that URL is noise.
Next time, try trimming out all the obviously unnecessary parts in your Address Bar and run the search again.
Observe how that gives you the same results.
-- gewg_
(Score: 2) by ls671 on Thursday March 27 2014, @10:28PM
You must be an HTML designer who puts more emphasis on the looks than on functionality.
Good luck in your career ;-)
P.S. Of course I know what you are talking about. Do you think I have time to waste on making it look pretty?
Everything I write is lies, including this sentence.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 28 2014, @12:22AM
Had you posted that ridiculously long nonsense to the old /., it would have made the page 3x as wide.
It would have taken you 1 second to trim off what was to the right of the search string.
The sad part is that you don't even realize how goofy your actions are.
-- gewg_
(Score: 2) by ls671 on Friday March 28 2014, @12:33AM
OK, OK. Next time, I'll take your show-off point into consideration. I won't post any link!
I know you are trolling. I just reply because I can.
Everything I write is lies, including this sentence.
(Score: 2) by ls671 on Friday March 28 2014, @12:35AM
Also, I suddenly feel insecure. Could you please help get trough it?
Everything I write is lies, including this sentence.
(Score: 1) by HiThere on Thursday March 27 2014, @07:12PM
If it's producing that much power, why don't they use some of the power to heat the gas, and just have it be a hot-air balloon? That would solve the problem of helium dependence, and plausibly make it more portable. It's hard to believe that if it generates a usable amount of power it wouldn't still produce a positive amount of power as a hot-air lifted device.
My suspicion is that they just didn't want to innovate in too many directions at once. This is reasonable. If so, the use of helium is an intermediate step.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by evilviper on Thursday March 27 2014, @08:02AM
I have yet to see one reason for this thing to exist... The summary and FTA tout how "big" it is, and NOTHING ELSE.
At just 30kW, you can buy a more powerful wind turbine for $60k on EBAY, and stick it in your back yard...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/39KW-Wind-Turbine-Generato r-on-Rohn-Tower-/161255121988 [ebay.com]
And yes, you're free to install communications equipment on top of that nice big tower, just as easily as a balloon. Sure, there's stronger winds high up, but when you've got such a tiny unit, you're not really taking advantage of them, and you can easily do as well at ground-level.
Renewable like wind, solar, tidal, etc., are great for isolated areas, and can easily cost half as much as traditional power generation methods, but that doesn't mean you need to resort to silly gimmicky toys to do so.
Hydrogen cyanide is a delicious and necessary part of the human diet.
(Score: 4, Informative) by wonkey_monkey on Thursday March 27 2014, @08:20AM
The company that's spent 18 months and $1.3 million researching and developing it appears to disagree.
And the expected cost of the electricy it generates - "about half the price of off-grid electricity in Alaska."
systemd is Roko's Basilisk
(Score: 3, Funny) by evilviper on Thursday March 27 2014, @10:32AM
Half the price of off-grid electricity doesn't mean it isn't MORE EXPENSIVE than a conventional turbine.
Your circular logic isn't helpful.
Hydrogen cyanide is a delicious and necessary part of the human diet.
(Score: 2) by wonkey_monkey on Friday March 28 2014, @12:16PM
Your assumption that because you can't see how something could have a positive impact (after reading a single article) therefore means that anyone who's spent 6 months and millions of dollars developing it must be mistaken is not helpful.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk
(Score: 2) by evilviper on Friday March 28 2014, @09:07PM
I made no such assumption. You, however, assume the opposite, which is just as untenable. It's called the "appeal to authority" logical fallacy.
There is simply nothing suggesting ANY benefits this may have, which makes this story a load of trash.
Hydrogen cyanide is a delicious and necessary part of the human diet.
(Score: 2) by wonkey_monkey on Saturday March 29 2014, @12:11AM
Neither does it mean it is. Or rather, that it will be in the future, given that this is an experimental project.
At the risk of repeating myself:
"the company expects to provide power at about $0.18 per kilowatt-hour, about half the price of off-grid electricity in Alaska."
Why, in the absense of any other information on the cost of the final product, would that not be beneficial?
The pretty obvious implication of your scornful tone is that you believe these people are wasting their money, based on one article written for the casual reader. Surely you would concede that they know far more about the project and its potential benefits than you?
systemd is Roko's Basilisk
(Score: 2) by evilviper on Saturday March 29 2014, @01:50AM
At the risk of continuing this pointless stupidity...
If it costs more up-front than a conventional wind turbine, or has higher operating costs than a conventional wind turbine, then it has a negative benefit.
No, you've completely imagined that. And last comment spelled out my position in unmistakable detail.
I am, however, "scornful" of your baseless and irrational comments.
Of course they know more about this project than I do.
That does NOT suggest that:
A) Those involved believe there is some major benefit to this project, in this situation, over conventional wind turbines.
B) That they are infallibly correct about the point above, even if they do believe that to be the case.
Hydrogen cyanide is a delicious and necessary part of the human diet.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Thursday March 27 2014, @07:05PM
18 months a a very short time to put together something so radical, for such extreme environment.
I'll think about it when Rev 2 comes out.
(Score: 3, Informative) by iWantToKeepAnon on Thursday March 27 2014, @01:50PM
That's why. Some "remote villages" are only accessible by plane or riverboat. Some bases won't be around long enough to make a permanent solution viable. Mines, probably a combination of the above. Disaster zones because it is needed FAST.
"Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." -- Anna Karenina by Leo Tolstoy
(Score: 5, Informative) by Covalent on Thursday March 27 2014, @01:57PM
I gather the reason for this to exist has to do with construction and maintenance costs.
A 60 foot tower out in rural Alaska is going to have to be assembled on site (hard), anchored in the permafrost (very hard) and maintained (expensive). A floating turbine could probably reduce those costs as it would be built in a factory, inflated on site, and could be lowered to maintain. Since this is early in the game, I would say the jury is still out on whether this is "worth it" or not.
Also, your assumption that the benefits of higher wind speeds at 900 feet are not being taken advantage of as compared to a 60 foot tower may not be valid.
You can't rationally argue somebody out of a position they didn't rationally get into.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 27 2014, @04:22PM
You're also going to have to anchor that blimp against strong gusts if you want to keep generating useful electricity from it.
(Score: 2) by evilviper on Friday March 28 2014, @09:11PM
You'll have to anchor this balloon every bit as well as a tower, perhaps even better, so that's not an argument in support of this device.
Hydrogen cyanide is a delicious and necessary part of the human diet.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 27 2014, @11:13AM
The chosen location is not due to the huge amount of hot air emitted by Sarah Palin, a spokescritter uttered.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Daiv on Thursday March 27 2014, @02:04PM
Of course people are already complaining about this not being the best solution because of x, y or z. But this is how things start. It's already a faster solution to get up an running than shipping, installing (and getting permits in many instances) a ground based wind turbine. With time and testing, costs should go down and efficiencies should go up.
If you can't think about future potential and just shout "WHY?!" then point to something similar, you've lost your imagination and there's no point in talking to you.
This is cool and hopefully leads to raising the standards of living or at least health care in all sorts of inaccessible parts of the world.
(Score: 5, Funny) by skullz on Thursday March 27 2014, @03:37PM
I'm American, I reserve my right to run around screaming "WHY?!!1" like my hair is on fire without even READING the article or the summary and judging the title with an un-informed knee jerk response.
'Merica!
(Score: 3, Informative) by TK on Thursday March 27 2014, @08:25PM
I'm an American, and I reserve the right to use English units for my back-of-the-envelope calculations.
Eyeballing the balloon, and based on the assumed height of the guy in the photo, it looks to have dimensions in the range of 18'ID, 30'OD, 56'Length.
That's a volume of 19000 ft^3.
Assuming air at 15 deg F and an altitude of 300m, density is 0.081 lbs/ft^3
Assuming He at 15 deg F and 1 atm, density is 0.011 lbs/ft^3
The buoyant force is about 1300 lbs.
A commercial 30kW electric motor weighs about 500 lbs with a cast-iron case, so let's say 400 lbs for an aluminum case and a high-efficiency, low-weight motor design.
The blade would be aluminum and fairly light-weight, let's call it 100 lbs to be on the safe side.
I'm considering the balloon itself as made of double-layer nylon, with 0.004" (0.1mm) (0.00033') thickness. That gives about 4.8 ft^3 of nylon, or 330 lbs. 68 lbs/ft^3*pi*(2/4*(30^2-18^2)+56*30+56*18)*0.00033)
I see seven segments of balloon, so I would guess six sets of ribs, one for each ID and one for each OD. Assuming 1/2" diameter nylon rod, that gives a volume of 6*pi/4*(0.5/12)^2*(pi*(18+30))=12.3 ft^3, or 84 lbs.
The balloon also has to support the weight of the power cable. Let's say 300m+10% for slack (1083'). A quick look at McMaster and I select a harsh environment 4-wire power cable capable of 63A at 600V. Unfortunately they don't give a per-foot weight, but it is 8 AWG wire (0.129" dia) and a 0.7" dia polyethylene cable. Assuming what isn't copper (560 lbs/ft^3) is polyethylene (59 lbs/ft^3).p i/4*((0.7/12)^2-4*(0.129/12)^2)))*1083
W=(560lbs/ft^3*(4*pi/4*(0.129/12)^2)+59lbs/ft^3*(
W=368lbs
Sum of the forces considered
+1300 buoyant force
-400 motor weight
-100 blade
-330 balloon
-84 frame
-368 cable
---------
18 lbs
Assuming I'm in the ballpark, it wouldn't take a lot of helium (percentage-wise) lost before it starts to sink. I know very little about the permeability of helium through blimp materials.
The fleas have smaller fleas, upon their backs to bite them, and those fleas have lesser fleas, and so ad infinitum
(Score: 2) by skullz on Thursday March 27 2014, @11:00PM
From what I could tell the turbine is this guy at 170 lbs:
http://www.skystreamenergy.com/products/skystream/ skystream-3.7 [skystreamenergy.com]
Source: http://www.altaerosenergies.com/pressrelease_2012_ 03.html [altaerosenergies.com]
And their brochure says that if a cable snaps or it goes flying off it will automatically vent the helium out so I imagine they would have to have someone with a recharge can come by every now and then.
(Score: 2) by evilviper on Friday March 28 2014, @09:19PM
In this case, neither the summary nor TFA lists any reason or benefits for this thing, at all.
Hydrogen cyanide is a delicious and necessary part of the human diet.