Lennart Poettering gave a talk recently in Beijing about the state of systemd and its future ahead.
Lennart keynoted at the joint FUDCon Beijing 2014 with GNOME.Asia 2014 event and he talked about the current position of systemd and its future going forward, while acknowledging it's evolved more than just being a basic init system to being "a set of basic building blocks to build an OS from."
Among the expressed objectives of systemd are turning Linux from "a bag of bits into a competitive general purpose operating system", building the Internet's Next Generation OS, unifying "pointless differences" between distributions, and causing greater innovation within the core OS. Systemd developers want to reduce administrator complexity, make everything introspectable, provide auto-discovery and plug and play, and fix things when they are broken.
Read more on Phoronix, including a link to (a badly converted) PDF with slides from the talk.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by frojack on Monday July 07 2014, @06:37PM
Twerp comes along and decides its his mission in life to kill Unix, which he considers to be "a bag of bits", and by extension, broken bits at that.
Probably the first link in TFA, about Kernel devs being fed up with these guys [phoronix.com] (which was oddly omitted in this story posting) says it best.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 1) by CRCulver on Monday July 07 2014, @06:51PM
The kernel devs might dislike systemd bugs, but they seem to be going along with systemd as an architecture. Maybe they just don't have much choice when Red Hat's behind it and Debian has already switched.
Personally, I'm fond of the old school Unix approach. I don't mind if people want to elaborate something else -- diversity is good -- but it looks like most major projects are taking systemd as the future. So, if you tried to preserve the traditional init and logging approach, you won't be able to run many of the applications that you take for granted nowadays. Your computer is reduced to a toy, like a Hurd install, through no fault of your own.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by frojack on Monday July 07 2014, @07:29PM
I'm slowly moving to OpenBSD.
I've been through so many Forced Marches with Linux, that I'm losing patience, always chasing the next broken thing, and waiting three releases before it gets fixed enough to make it usable again. How many sound architectures have we been through? ( Poettering had something to do with that too, as I recall).
But the point here, is that these guys will (within 4 years) simply replace every functioning part of Linux including the Kernel if left to their own devices. All of it done in a hurry, with untested code being given very little security reviews.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2) by tibman on Tuesday July 08 2014, @12:40AM
Maybe Gentoo will pick up some new users (and donations!) in the next few years then : )
SN won't survive on lurkers alone. Write comments.
(Score: 3, Informative) by My Silly Name on Tuesday July 08 2014, @02:33AM
(Score: 4, Informative) by VLM on Monday July 07 2014, @07:52PM
"Debian has already switched"
Your optimism is touching. Debian moves at its own speed. The Debian wiki is a good resource on how to install/test systemd at this time on a Debian box. Works for me. Being able to install systemd and real init in parallel and select one or the other at boot by editing your grub, most of the time, doesn't necessarily mean the switch is complete. Still quite a bit of work to do, last time I checked.
I have not used debian-installer off testing lately, but I'm not sure its installing only systemd at this time.
The part of the switch that has been completed is setting the goal to move to systemd.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Monday July 07 2014, @08:27PM
"Maybe they just don't have much choice when Red Hat's behind it and Debian has already switched."
There is a second mistake in that, the actual problem is some overgrown window managers (aka desktop environments) require systemd. So if you want gnome 3.8 the system needs to be systemd and early on the os devs decided supporting multiple init scripts is just a little unreasonable.
That puts enormous pressure on the OS devs, either drop gnome ... or switch init systems. As a guy who doesn't use gnome, I'd say drop gnome like a hot potato and keep a real init system rather than switching to the toy, but I can understand the perspective of a gnome user not entirely agreeing with that.
As a philosophical point one problem with the systemd and Debian folks is the systemd are all into discipline and limiting choice as much as they can, whereas the Debian guys are all about not restricting users any more than necessary.
So without the pressure from the desktop people, the Debian (and presumably redhat) people would always have it as an option, much like installing GNU R in no way prevents you from installing Octave, or installing EMACS in no way prevents you from installing Vim. It would be trivial to intentionally introduce a conflicts: line to force sysadmins to select from only octave and R, or only vim and emacs, but that wouldn't be very "Debian-ish" The force against the users will is coming entirely from the desktop people.
In summary the "we have to switch" pressure is the direct fault of the desktop people, not the OS devs. The OS devs are victims just as much as the end users.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Monday July 07 2014, @09:47PM
I *WAS* a Gnome user before they screwed it all up in the name of tablet computing (yeah, there's a GREAT idea, follow Microsoft's lead!)
xfce4 is nice. I've heard good things about Cinnamon and Mate. I vote to give Gnome the heave-ho until they recover their senses and get rid of crazy dependencies and recover from their obsession with removing functionality.
If someone wants to cobble together a new init, I don't mind at all as long as they keep their hands to themselves. The crazy dependencies need to go.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday July 08 2014, @01:23PM
"The crazy dependencies need to go."
That is a good summary of the hatred toward systemd. Insane as it sounds the best analogy to the current situation is "you will expunge ALSA from your OS because EMACS will only use pulseaudio in the future so either get rid of EMACS or get rid of ALSA". And then blame the OS guys. Like an insane IT hostage situation.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Wednesday July 09 2014, @04:27AM
Exactly true.
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Tuesday July 08 2014, @02:44PM
I moved to Mate a while back but recently switched to Xmonad on my laptop(though not exclusively, yet). I must admit that at first I couldn't imagine a GUI without a desktop. But the more I use it the more I like it. In Mate I am always clicking, dragging, clicking, moving windows around. But in xmonad I use dmenu to launch stuff and have even moved to a few command line applications like audio players and chat programs. I can forgo using the mouse for most of my work and xmonad is not one of those cut the cord type WM's (which is good because I am a crap typist). You can use the mouse as much as you want. Believe me it is a much better way to work a desktop.
I would suggest giving it a try.
(Score: 2) by cafebabe on Tuesday July 08 2014, @12:44AM
So this could have been solved by making systemd start from init and making systemd a dependency of gnome3.8 but the disadvantage was longer boot time? Instead, known bugs in systemd which cause dmesg to crash require a workaround in the kernel? If that is the case then the flaming is entirely justified.
1702845791×2
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Theophrastus on Monday July 07 2014, @06:52PM
yep. add in "..young whippersnapper!" and/or "..you meddling kids" and i'm in complete agreement.
i don't mind having to learn a whole new boot-up system (and -other- associated stuff that i think has been tacked on), except when there's no good manual for it (yet)! almost all my requests for significant documentation have been met with "well, there's this guy's blog about it ...but it's now seriously out of date. -growwl-
however! i fear that "arrogance", and possibly no-basic-social-skills, are a nigh essential character feature in innovators of this sort. Linus h'sself being another example.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 07 2014, @07:17PM
> when there's no good manual for it (yet)! almost all my requests for significant documentation have been met with "well, there's this guy's blog
This is my #1 problem with modern linux. Once upon a time everything had a man page. Now documentation is spread all over the fucking internet. It is so god damn self-centered of these devs to expect that users should be experts in their little corner of the world if they want to do anything beyond use the defaults.
(Score: 2) by frojack on Monday July 07 2014, @07:23PM
What's wrong with All Over the Internet?
You just told us documentation is pervasive, and yet you somehow complain about it.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by CRCulver on Monday July 07 2014, @07:33PM
(Score: 2) by frojack on Monday July 07 2014, @07:54PM
Nobody installing Linux had ZERO access to another computer to check with.
Whip out that cell phone. Use your OTHER computer (saw a statistic some years ago that the average linux user has at least three computers, I have 8 within arms reach if I include smartphones and tablets), boot with the Live CD that you used to convince yourself to run linux in the first place.
Seriously, that issue is so fleetingly rare as to be non-existent. Its 1993 anymore.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 1) by CRCulver on Monday July 07 2014, @08:31PM
Of course that happens. Not everyone has a smartphone, even among SN readers. Sometimes one is travelling away from home for an extended period of time, and when your network is down, it's nice to have locally stored documentation instead of having to walk the streets looking for a "internet cafe", an establishment that is on the wane even in the Third World.
It's not even a matter of "installing Linux". Some mistake you make while tinkering with or administering your system, or botched upgrade pushed by a distro, could disable network access.
It's funny that you suggest that I am behind the times and then you talk about Live CDs. I haven't had a notebook with a CD drive in six or seven years now. That said, I should burn a rescue USB stick.
(Score: 2) by Popeidol on Wednesday July 09 2014, @08:53AM
Around 2006, I did some work at remote sites. On one occasion I was the only man staying on a site for a few weeks. It was outside mobile phone range and the only computer on site was physically locked away. There was one phone line. I had a box of old parts, a couple of OS CD's, and a pay-by-the-month dialup account.
I got a nice system up and running: 200mhz pentium pro, 32mb of ram, 4gb hard drive, and a 28.8k modem, running Damn Small Linux (I tried win2k, but at that point an unpatched win2k install on the open internet was compromised in minutes). There was not only no other computer, there were no reference materials at all. Until the modem was working I was stuck with whatever the distro came with.
Things are different now and it was an edge case even then, but sometimes you are genuinely cut off from the internet. At times like that your references need to be local.
(Score: 2) by Leebert on Tuesday July 08 2014, @03:14AM
Never been on a mission trip to a developing country, I see...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 08 2014, @10:17AM
or had a job on a boat ...
(Score: 2) by VLM on Monday July 07 2014, @07:56PM
You can file a bug with your OS (at least with Debian) and the version of the manpage you find really absolutely should match the version of the software you have installed on that box with near 100% accuracy.
Some random LVM tutorial from '03 that google dredged up isn't much help with some (emphasis 'some') LVM2 problems happening in 2014.
Also if someone bothered to localize the manpage, most OS will have it (Debian will, anyway). So if you only speak Klingon and there's no Klingon translation of the online tutorial, there might be a translated Klingon manpage. Some languages are a little more thoroughly translated than others, of course. Good luck with that Klingon thing.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 07 2014, @08:19PM
> You just told us documentation is pervasive, and yet you somehow complain about it.
Pervasive [merriam-webster.com] does not mean what you think it means.
The documentation isn't EVERYWHERE, it is randomly squirreled away in random formats with with random amounts of completeness and correctness.
The only thing worse than no documentation is incomplete documentation because it narrows your focus. You are better off reading the source code which only a dumbass would think was anything better than a last resort.
(Score: 2) by frojack on Monday July 07 2014, @08:50PM
Pervasive means everywhere. The net is everywhere. Even on the ISS. Even on Antarctica. Even in African villages. Even on ships at sea.
And the documentation is highly organized, and indexed, and easily found.
And no, reading the source code is virtually never required, even for SystemD.
In fact Linux and BSD documentation is FAR more accessible than Microsoft Documentation.
You can get it in book form for free by downloading a pdf and printing it, or for a few bucks in pre-printed form. Every DVD set (again free if you look) of Linux had a mountain of documentation, not limited to man pages.
Stop repeating the old fud about no linux documentation, which any fifth grader demonstrate as idiocy with one single google search. Surely you are smarter than a fifth grader?
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 1) by fnj on Monday July 07 2014, @09:05PM
You seem to be purposely missing the point. Documentation is SCATTERED. Yes, if you methodically look EVERYWHERE, you will eventually find the piece you need. Unless your internet connection is down, of course.
Linux devs make a point of not thinking man pages are important. The official line is "read the info page". I have personally never met anyone who can face running info without throwing up. It is a vile, repulsive, unintuitive piece of garbage, and info pages are terribly organized.
FreeBSD takes man pages seriously and do not deprecate them.
(Score: 2) by frojack on Monday July 07 2014, @10:48PM
You do not have to methodically look everywhere.
You see, while you were asleep, mankind invented search engines. If you can't find the hit in the FIRST PAGE of results you are probably being deliberately obtuse in your search terms.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 08 2014, @12:57AM
His point still stands though. Just because access to the documentation is pervasive, does not mean the documentation itself is pervasive.
In more than a handful of cases, if one or two websites go down, suddenly the documentation for a project (or, depending on which sites, A LOT of projects) is suddenly almost completely unavailable from anywhere, for anyone.
(Score: 1) by CRCulver on Monday July 07 2014, @09:08PM
Care to link to it then? As far as I know, systemd still does not have an official manual updated for each new release. There are man pages for the individual components, but the systemd architecture itself is so complex than they don't help you until you can get a view of the big picture. And for that view of the complete system, you basically have to glean information from the tips and tricks wiki pages of individual Linux distros. That's hardly "highly organized" or "easily found".
(Score: 1, Troll) by frojack on Monday July 07 2014, @10:53PM
http://bit.ly/1oeZKpL [bit.ly]
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 1) by CRCulver on Tuesday July 08 2014, @08:49AM
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Tuesday July 08 2014, @04:39PM
Why would you shorten a LMGTFY link? That's like a layer of asshole nested inside a layer of smugness.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2) by frojack on Tuesday July 08 2014, @06:46PM
Exactly the effect I was going for.
When someone tells you they can't find anything on the web and google finds it instantly, LMGTFY is exactly the proper delivery mode.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2) by Theophrastus on Monday July 07 2014, @09:08PM
yet that is the opposite sense of my original complaint. it is not "highly organized" or "indexed" (not sure what that even means starting with a net search). the large majority of 'user manual', let alone, 'developers manual' material about systemd on the web is out of date. it's in the form of a once helpful blog by someone which has long been superseded by changes made to systemd. for example, choose one small service which used to depend upon a crufty old shell script to bring up its daemon, (oh say, an rsync daemon), "systemctl enable" it ...etc; try that and if you get some funky error message, you're likely screwed.
spent all afternoon to find one damn -footnote- on an arch wiki which explained the matter and how "the error message was not at all helpful"
any savvy proponent of systemd could make themselves a small fortune by publishing a full "how-to' text about it; or at least i'd buy a copy (if it weren't a Packt publication, that is)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 07 2014, @11:11PM
> Pervasive means everywhere. The net is everywhere.
It seems you have some sort of vested interest in systemd. Otherwise I am hard pressed to understand how someone could be so aggressively stupid.
> Stop repeating the old fud about no linux documentation,
Stop being an idiot. I'm complaining about absolutely shitty documentation. I've been running linux since before you even heard of it. My name is in the release notes for XFree86 from before it was even named XFree86. Same thing with Mosaic before it was even ported to Windows. You are in no position to lecture me about linux advocacy.
(Score: 2) by frojack on Tuesday July 08 2014, @12:55AM
Your reading comprehension on this list is horrible. Can you not follow a thread, or is there some other impairment. Have you noticed who started this thread?
There are a number of reasons to hate systemd, but not being able to find the documentation is not one of them.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 08 2014, @01:20AM
> Your reading comprehension on this list is horrible.
That's rich. Your writing comprehension on this 'list' is horrible.
You are the one who wrote "the old fud about no linux documentation" - if you weren't on board with the expansion of the topic beyond the scope of your original post then you shouldn't have participated in that expansion.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 08 2014, @10:25AM
> Even on Antarctica. Even on ships at sea.
I work on ships at sea. I also work in Antarctica. I do not work on the ISS, but I've known logistitians who help run it.
No the net is not in these places in any meaningful way. Mirror as much of the debian stable archive as you can before leaving the confines of home is your best bet. The satellite phone is $14/minute by the way, and the network access is about 28k -- IF the geosync satellite which has wobbled out of orbit is above the horizon.
The Internet is not nearly as available and work not nearly as connected as you think it is. Amazingly connected yes, but only in population centers. Can you tell me where that 777 got to?
(Score: 4, Informative) by Thexalon on Monday July 07 2014, @07:34PM
FTFS:
Let me think here for about 3 seconds:
"competitive" - I'd say Linux is most definitely competitive, since it dominates on servers, runs on about half of all mobile phones, and is even making inroads on desktops and tablets (especially where backed by Google).
"general purpose" - Linux can run on everything from mainframes to embedded systems, and can run just about any application your little heart desires. I don't think it gets much more general-purpose than that.
All of this was true before the systemd switch.
I think Mr Poettering greatly exaggerates the benefits of his work for users. My own limited experience suggests that systemd can be useful if someone who knows what they're doing sets it up just right, but $DEITY help you figure things out if there's a problem. While I'm waiting for him to document it well enough that I can fix problems, I'll just let that bag of bits that runs my phone, home desktops, and servers just keep doing what it's supposed to do without making a fuss, like it has since before systemd came along.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 07 2014, @07:59PM
It's also worth noting that this is the guy who foisted the pulseaudio abortion on the Linux community. It boggles my mind that anyone would think using an init replacement written by this guy would be a good idea. Fool me twice...
(Score: 2) by sjames on Monday July 07 2014, @09:57PM
Hear Hear!
It's disturbing how often the solution to an audio problem is to kill -9 pulseaudio. ALSA has fixed enough OSS shortcomings that PA is more trouble than it's worth.
(Score: 1) by My Silly Name on Tuesday July 08 2014, @06:42AM
PA is just bolted on top of ALSA, getting between the excellent job that ALSA does and your ears. The sad thing is that so many distros are going down the track of building in dependencies to systemd and PA where they needn't exist.
Since Poettering works at RedHat, I guess he is in a position to influence that, since he is apparently not ashamed to tootle his own flugelhorn.
Although Slackware has been my primary distro since it was SLS over 20 years ago, I do experiment with others from time to time. My other favourite to date, ArchLinux used to have a great many similarities to Slackware, but not so much any more, and has adopted both systemd and pulseaudio.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Tuesday July 08 2014, @07:12AM
I am seriously considering giving Slackware a try. I have been using Debian for years and I like it, but if they're really going to stick me with systemd, I need a good fallback plan.
It won't be entirely new, I started out with SLS a zillion years ago.
(Score: 1) by My Silly Name on Tuesday July 08 2014, @03:03PM
Well, there's one thing I can give you a cast-iron guarantee on when it comes to Slackware: It will never be new. I doubt if the init scripts have changed much since SLS.
That said, you'll find the applications contained in Slack are pretty much current, and there are plenty of current packages supplied by reliable individuals such as Eric Hameleers (Alienbob) if you don't feel like compiling stuff for yourself.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 08 2014, @10:13AM
it seems to me that we have to research a better brand of tar. the feathers fell off him too fast last time.
why anyone would touch anything this bozo comes up with with a 10 foot pole is completely beyond me.
(Score: 2) by meisterister on Monday July 07 2014, @09:44PM
>Among the expressed objectives of systemd are turning Linux from "a bag of bits into a competitive general purpose operating system"
Let me fix that, at least based on what I know of the issue:
...are turning Linux from a competitive general purpose operating system to a competitive general purpose operating system with a bloated init system maintained by a dictator contrary to the principles that UNIX was founded on.
(May or may not have been) Posted from my K6-2, Athlon XP, or Pentium I/II/III.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Monday July 07 2014, @11:34PM
Products usually can't be better than their customers..
(Score: 1) by ticho on Tuesday July 08 2014, @05:51AM
The link wasn't "oddly omitted", it was omitted because you should click on it from TFA. Nothing sinister going on here, I dislike systemd too.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by VLM on Monday July 07 2014, @07:35PM
So the good news is you won't have to use shell scripts for init. Well, I mean a handful of OS devs who just use templates anyway. Or something. And there's a big list of features no one wants, no one is interested in, but sound OK in a PHB sense that we're about to get stuck with. And I will admit that dumb as the whole idea sounds as a goal, the code has worked ok for me on some test machines. Its trivial enough to set up in Debian and so far it just works. The biggest problem I've had was a weird kernel panic when upgrading systemd on a debian stable machine upgrading to testing that killed systemd so hard I had to boot into "real" init to complete the upgrade, although after that a reboot worked fine with the new systemd. Grats guys, you just turned linux upgrading into a bad windows NT joke. Aside from that the testing really has been painless.
On the downside this is the most succinct summary of dealing with the systemd people I've ever read "I can do whatever I want, others have to clean up after me". What an absolute joy to work with, I love those guys (sarcasm).
(Score: 1) by GeminiDomino on Tuesday July 08 2014, @01:52AM
I seriously considered moving back to FreeBSD when this all started (I changed jobs, and with it, platforms, back in the 4-STABLE days). That didn't last long, though, when I tried to set up a testbed and saw how badly screwed up some of its package defaults are: Apparently, if I want a LAMP stack without X, I'm stuck with the horror of ports - it's a great system for adding in the occasional software package, but constantly recompiling the core services... no thanks.
It still makes me very sad.
"We've been attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of our culture"
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Tuesday July 08 2014, @03:03PM
Hmmm, I think I see your problem: installing a ->L-AMP stack on FreeBSD. I didnt know you could 'pkg_add -r linux'.
(Yes, I joke)
(Score: 1) by GeminiDomino on Tuesday July 08 2014, @04:27PM
I just thought saying I was trying to install a "FAPP stack" would send the wrong message. ;)
"We've been attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of our culture"
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 08 2014, @10:00AM
> So the good news is you won't have to use shell scripts for init.
I know you were being sarcastic, but can anyone explain why the [expletive deleted] does anyone think would be good news? Because they got taught C# and JavaScript in school and never took the time to understand Bourne? The existing way works perfectly, or at last well enough, the bugs are long worked out, and shell scripts are a well known quantity for decades. I mean what the fuck? [expletive preserved]
It's like, well the good news is that we're adding this registry thing so that you don't need to use Unix to use Linux now, it's just the the way things work in the system I used to use.
fucking cunting prick already. [expletive enhanced] this crap needs to end, and the LKML is the group with the moral authority to make it happen. Redhat is obviously doing its own thing, debian is too busy discussing bylaws, and Linus is more interested in the next layer down.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by VLM on Monday July 07 2014, @07:46PM
The future of systemd is BOS.
WTF is BOS, you're asking? BOS is a psuedo-init for AFS, openafs, that starts up the file server, volume server, permission server, all that stuff. For no reason I can understand, AFS has to use some weirdo system to start stuff up instead of just shoving fs, ptserver, and vlserver into normal init scripts. Its kind of a PITA. No, not kinda, it really is a PITA.
Another thing BOS is good at is if you're insane enough to install an irc server or anything else that grabs BOS's favorite ports, it freaks out and outputs nonsense error messages rather than starting, which is hilarious to debug given the cruddy error message. Debian used to have a conflicts: line with one of the ircd servers, it was pretty funny. I think AFS was there first before IRC, but good luck getting either side to move first, LOL. Its a political thing so neither side will put in debugging code to prevent it or at least document the conflict because the other side is Wrong with a capital W. There's a funny debian bug report from like 15 years ago about this.
This is the eventual position systemd will be in. Here's a PITA no one really wants, but we're stuck with it to start some stuff people haven't yet ported out of it. So it'll sit there and rot and piss people off and confuse them and generally make things worse than if it never existed. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, maybe in 10 years, who knows, but its the eventual situation of systemd as much as its today's situation for good ole BOS.
I'm sure at the time it sounded like a good idea, but at some point you gotta pull the plug. I'm talking about both BOS and systemd.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 07 2014, @07:47PM
Who know about the better alternatives to init? There was a guy with a minimal replacement for init - minimal compared to systemd and in a unix sense of doing one thing and one thing well. Can't rememeber the name. Perhaps there are others?
Let's talk cures, not the systemd disease.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 07 2014, @08:38PM
(Score: 2) by chromas on Monday July 07 2014, @09:48PM
Epoch [universe2.us] is the one we had a story about awhile back.
(Score: 2) by jimshatt on Monday July 07 2014, @10:28PM
I like it already!
(Score: 2) by Subsentient on Tuesday July 08 2014, @04:49AM
Somebody mentioned me!!!!!
:^3
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." -Jiddu Krishnamurti
(Score: 2) by cafebabe on Tuesday July 08 2014, @01:05AM
If you want to log, start and restart services in a portable manner, there's a role for DJB's daemontools. It co-exists with init and it is fairly robust.
1702845791×2
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 08 2014, @06:02AM
What is with all the Daily Heil submissions man?
(Score: 2) by forsythe on Tuesday July 08 2014, @01:44AM
Gentoo's OpenRC [gentoo.org] is sort of an extension around sysvinit that addresses every actual concern I've ever heard raised about sysvinit.
My initial reason for switching to Gentoo was to escape Consolekit (a mess I considered worse than Pulseaudio), and when systemd hit I was pleasantly surprised that I didn't have to jump through any hoops to avoid it.
(Score: 2) by jasassin on Tuesday July 08 2014, @03:18AM
I've looked at some of its logging capabilities, very impressive. It is so complex though, I think I'd rather write a sendmail.cf from scratch.
jasassin@gmail.com GPG Key ID: 0xE6462C68A9A3DB5A
(Score: 2) by TheLink on Tuesday July 08 2014, @04:07AM
Nor was it the lack or presence of systemd that made Linux popular in the server market.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 08 2014, @07:35AM
srsly. if I don't have Xorg server installed why then does my gui-less server need systemD?
maybe we can make this a new official standard: no gui = no systemD -OR- cli only = sys5init
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Tuesday July 08 2014, @03:20PM
It seems that every day we move further and further from the Unix Philosophy [wikipedia.org]. Scroll down to Eric Raymond's 17 Unix Rules and then Mike Gancarz: The UNIX Philosophy. Notice how they are taking those founding ideas and tossing them away. Sounds like the US constitution and bill of rights. Politics has bloated the Linux project as much as politics has bloated the United States government.
Believe me, I understand that these are not real rules that are enforced. Rather, they are a guide setup by the original developers of Unix. And I think I would trust their outlook on software and OS design more than some dude who works at Redhat who already has a bad track record.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Tuesday July 08 2014, @04:49PM
Bear in mind they didn't just pull the Unix Philosophy out of their asses, either; they did in many cases the opposite of a previous monolithic effort they had worked on.
Multics [wikipedia.org]
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 1) by knorthern knight on Friday July 11 2014, @02:58AM
Why did Linus allow this to happen?