A little diversion from The Center for American Progress for those of us who got old but still refuse to grow up
Melissa Hunter is an LA-based comedian who noticed a little something about boys. Namely, how they seemed to stay... boys. Bros living with a dozen roommates. Guys eating Pop-Tarts for dinner. Dudes never buying toilet paper. Even when, perhaps, they should be men. Because they are 33 years old. Hypothetically speaking. Channeling her frustration into hilarity, Hunter, along with writer-actress Megan Rosati, wrote and filmed "1-800-Adopt-A-Dude," which asks us, "Will you be an angel for a fully grown, yet utterly helpless man?"
[...]
I called [up Hunter] to talk 1-800-Adopt-A-Dude, which went up [on YouTube] Wednesday.
What's the Adopt-a-Dude origin story?
It came about based on our single dating experiences in Los Angeles, and trying to find grown men who act like grown men. I would often date a guy and then find out he shared a bedroom, or didn't have a car, or a job. It just didn't make sense to me that there was this epidemic of men acting like they were still in college. So we started joking about that out of frustration, and how funny it would be to place them in one of those "adopt a child" or "adopt an animal" videos. I love those, like the Sarah McLachlan ones. They're so ripe for parody.
[...]
Aside from the cultural pressures and male expectations you've talked about, do you think some of this is a pressure women put on ourselves? That there are girls who go into relationships kind of excited about the prospect of, for lack of a better phrase, a fixer-upper?
I think we're all kind of complicit in it, and that's part of the commentary that we wanted to put forward: it's not anyone's fault, necessarily, it's just the way our society works right now. Maybe it's something that we want men to change, to be the guy that we want them to be, so being able to change the way they dress or eat is almost an easy way to think that they're going to be better people, better boyfriends, better partners. There's a satisfaction to teaching someone about something. I think that's true in any relationship. I've been in a relationship where someone knew everything about music, and he was so excited to teach me about classic rock. It was something he could bring to the table. And also maybe it's like, we can't control or change the way men think in a macro level, so maybe on a micro level, we can do that.
[...]
Which of these jokes in the video feel the most true to you?
I think there were two the roll of toilet paper, that's probably my favorite joke. Because it seems SO simple, and so basic, that of course, you can have toilet paper too! All it costs is the cost of a roll of toilet paper. It seems silly that it's so hard. And the other joke is the one where Megan is reading the book and it says "Donate in the next five minutes, and you'll get a text every day from your dude, asking, like, you know, how your day was. Really basic shit." Because I feel like that's something, when I'm dating someone, or my friend is dating someone, everything that we have to ask of them seems SO basic. If you're in a relationship, just checking in every day.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29 2014, @07:38AM
I think a lot of the struggles are financial when growing up. It wasn't until my career started to take off at age 28 and I could afford my own mortgage did I internally feel mature. Up till then I lived on friend's sofas and felt embarrassed whenever I went home to visit my parents. Now I go home and feel a certain inner pride of being the "good son who is making it on his own now".
The bar to that independent living seems to get higher each generation rather than smaller and I'm not massively surprised there are large numbers of men without their own homes and cars.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by anubi on Tuesday July 29 2014, @08:21AM
I feel for you.
I had to give up damned near everything to "get my financial house in order".
I get the idea there are a lot of women still looking for a finance. Not a fiancee - a "finance".
I avoid those type like the plague. They seem to be the type who are just looking for a "charge card charger".
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 3, Interesting) by VLM on Tuesday July 29 2014, @11:37AM
"I avoid those type like the plague."
I have to compliment female gold diggers as a class in that they're generally pretty honest and upfront about what they want. At least in my experience. Its efficient. My record shortest relationship was about 30 seconds long, maybe 20 years ago, this girl says hi, I say hi back, she asks what I do for a living, I tell her, she says "Wow I bet that pays well", "yeah, um, gotta go, bye". She was sorta nice looking but if I'm paying for it, I can get even better for less money from the "experts" in that field. No hard feelings or wasted time.
Its much worse with what men superficially want from women, they don't like talking about it in the first 30 seconds of the relationship, and even worse you can invest a lot of time only to find out she doesn't like what you like.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by anubi on Tuesday July 29 2014, @12:37PM
*chuckling*...
Yeh, I remember when I was a kid, we would be all plowing over each other for the opportunity to "take her out", which includes paying for everything. It was a real big social stigma to refuse the girl anything she wanted - as it was a "date" and she was giving you the opportunity to be *seen with a girl*. Yep, a real Wally Cleaver ( reference to old TV show "Leave It to Beaver"). The least a guy could do is pick up any tab she runs up.
I had fell for some of it too, but what broke me was the cell phone. I figured if I was paying, I deserved not to be continuously interrupted by her other paramours on the phone.
At that point, I quit paying. I felt I had best save up for a house. Let the people calling her on the phone pay for her dinners.
The worst ones were ones who had rich dads and never thought twice about how much anything costs.
They may have been gorgeous to look at, but I could never think of taking anything like that for a wife. No way was I going to be able to compete with her dad. She was only good for one thing. Wam bam thank-ya maam!
If I started mentioning how expensive something is and did we really need it, I was seen as a tightwad.
Ok.... so I am a tightwad. At least I am self-sufficient and not in debt. Not henpecked either. No hen.
Downside - it does get lonely at times.
I have heard it said before.... wimmen! Can't live with 'em! Can't live without 'em.
With the way the laws are written today, I consider it way way way too risky to be getting involved with 'em. So as far as I am concerned, the tables are now turned. If they want an electronic engineer for a husband, its them that are going to have to do the wooing. I am all woo'd out.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2) by nightsky30 on Tuesday July 29 2014, @01:41PM
Agreed. I'm tired of finding the crazies, gold diggers, those with no common sense, the spoiled daddy's girls, etc. What happened to the girls that had common sense, worked hard to get decent, self sufficient jobs, and lived within their means? I don't think this is a male dominant issue. I've met plenty of immature women. Look at Casey Anthony, WTF!!! I think most people, male and female, in my generation and the up and coming generation are just lazy, spoiled assholes who don't know the meaning of work or earned possessions.
I'm debt free and self sufficient as well...but sometimes lonely as hell.
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29 2014, @02:28PM
See, women having been dependent since the beginning of time. The joke is that it's a new thing for men.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Snow on Tuesday July 29 2014, @03:05PM
I think those women got snatched up in their late teens/early twenties. I am lucky enough to be married to a wonderful woman that works hard and takes really good care of me (she doesn't support me financially, but makes sure I eat not too terrible and of course the companionship). She works really hard (alot harder than I work sitting at a desk all day). We started dating when I was 18, and she was 19.
Yes, I got a great girl, but I also missed out on getting to sample the market. Life is a compromise.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 30 2014, @07:11AM
Mine left me after a couple of years to "sample the market". Even today she is utterly pissed that I never got back with her.
I still feel the rejection.
(Score: 2) by urza9814 on Tuesday July 29 2014, @02:31PM
Hah, times change though. As a 24 year old...I can't remember the last girl I dated who didn't *force* me to allow her to pay for things at least occasionally. Often if I put my credit card with the check and get up to use the men's room, I'll come back to find she swapped my card with hers! With my most recent ex it even turned into a bit of a competition -- I was raised to always pay for everything, but she wasn't having any of that patriarchy crap, so we'd literally be grabbing the card out of each others' hands as we walked up to the register :)
But yes, it also helps to stay FAR away from the spoiled rich girls...
(Score: 2) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Wednesday July 30 2014, @11:07AM
> so we'd literally be grabbing the card out of each others' hands as we walked up to the register :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk3ds-VFKBs [youtube.com]
(Score: 3, Informative) by bradley13 on Tuesday July 29 2014, @03:56PM
Wow, that's pretty bitter stuff. FWIW there are other reasonable women out there. For me, at least, the trick was to skip out on the whole traditional dating scene. Get to know women through normal activities. School and work are the obvious ones. For those of us in male dominated fields, we may have to make an effort to pick up other hobbies, where there are more women.
The important point: don't pick up a hobby because you're chasing skirts. Sure, you choose it because you will encounter women, but choose a hobby that genuinely interests you. You'll meet people, you'll make friends. That good stuff right there.
Sometime, when you least expect it, you may find one of the women romantically interesting. Bonus: you already know what kind of person she is, and you already have a lot in common. But even if this never happens, you have friends and a fun hobby.
Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday July 29 2014, @05:18PM
"FWIW there are other reasonable women out there."
Yeah but most single guys won't date married chicks.
"don't pick up a hobby because you're chasing skirts"
Why not? I like to hike and used to bicycle and so do some women and if you don't get any, at least you get a good workout. I'm not seeing a problem.
Also I admit in my youth to going to craft stores and asking chicks for help selecting a birthday gift for my mom. Think about it, here's a chick with money (at least enough to go to the craft store) and she's got a car (to get to the craft store) and she's cool with spending time and money on hobbies (admittedly mine are different, but at least she'll tolerate my interests). This isn't how I met my wife but I had some fun doing this. The clerks start looking at you weirdly once they figure out what you're up to.
(Score: 2) by Snow on Tuesday July 29 2014, @08:38PM
haha, that's a great Idea. What did you do with all the phony gifts after you left the store?
(Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday July 29 2014, @09:21PM
Well thats easy, I gave them to my mom, of course. I really am a nice guy.
Luckily the craft store was about 10% to 20% hotties and my mom likes crafty stuff. If my mom liked dungeons and dragons or welding I'd have been pretty much screwed, or more precisely, not-screwed.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 30 2014, @01:18PM
They're not honest.. they're not even honest with themselves. Normally if you have a roommate it should reduce your expenses. I've not once ever had a live in girlfriend without an increase in living expenses. They just start demanding a bunch of shit.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29 2014, @01:41PM
> It wasn't until my career started to take off at age 28 and I could afford my own mortgage did I internally feel mature.
I am in my mid-40's with two successful careers behind me, financial and social success, a family, and I still don't feel mature. I may look that way to the younger people in my life, but I'm pretty sure I'll go to my grave waiting to "grow up".
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Tuesday July 29 2014, @02:36PM
Eating pop-tarts and not buying TP is a sign of poor upbringing. Toilet paper isn't going to break the bank unless you are living hand to mouth on a crappy salary or rent a costly apartment because its in a happening neighborhood (a stupid move I see so many make). Most guys I know who don't buy TP and eat junk food are sloppy to begin with. Usually their apartment goes like this:
Their bathroom sink is covered in facial hair, your feet stick to the floor and the toilet has a nice brown film of feces and the seat and rim has a dried coating of urine. The kitchen sink is full of dirty dishes, floor filthy, trash can is overflowing and reeks of rotting food. Bedroom floor is carpeted with dirty clothes, bed linen rarely washed and reeks of BO, dirty dishes and takeout containers littering every surface. *BUT* Their going out clothes are always clean and ready, Axe or other BS toiletries, hair gels and colognes stocked, shoes shined. Work clothes are clean and neat too. So they have this phony outward appearance of being clean and neat but everything else is a mess.
And you wonder why girls/women don't want a man like that. Its a childish way to live and shows a lack of self respect. That shows their parents never taught them any better. That or they are incredibly lazy. Look, I am not Mr. Perfect myself. My room is a bit messy and I don't make my bed or fold my clothes, I hang them in a closet. If I have someone come by I can clean up in an hour or less. But the last thing I will ever have is dirt and filth. I keep my kitchen sink empty of dishes as I wash then as I use them. I own a vacuum, broom, dustpan, mop and I use them as often as possible. Trash is emptied every other day, nothing more nauseating than coming home to stinking trash. I have cats. They can make a real stink but I clean the litter box every other day or daily. I have a closet full of TP, paper towels, cleaning supplies and kitty litter. Again, I am not perfect but i'll be damned if a girl walks into my bathroom and sees a film of shit in my toilet, piss all over the rim and facial hair plastered around the sink all with no TP to top it off. And I'm sure its nice if the kitchen doesn't smell like 2 week rotten chinese takeout.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Snow on Tuesday July 29 2014, @03:13PM
Can I make a suggestion? Throw out your mop and buy a steam mop. It's super easy, cheap, and works REALLY good. When you are done, just rip off the pad and throw in the laundry, plus you don't have to buy any soaps/detergents.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 04 2014, @02:28PM
...And be GENUINELY grateful for them....
Proverbs 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
http://www.togetherweteach.com/TCB/Old/20Proverbs/o20pro16.htm [togetherweteach.com]
The Madness of King Nebuchadnezzar
http://www.togetherweteach.com/TCB/Old/27Daniel/o27dan04.htm [togetherweteach.com]
Too Much Of A Good Thing Can Be Deadly
http://www.togetherweteach.com/TCB/New/03Luke/03luke12.htm [togetherweteach.com]
So you can take the above to heart or ignore it -- your choice.
The Source of those words can change you or crush you.
Years ago, I was sorta in your position but people higher up
the socioeconomic food chain than me had other ideas when they saw the
global economy failing. So they 'saved' themselves and let
everybody else on the planet twist in the wind while they
'sat' on their cash mountains and watch inflation make them
a tiny bit less valuable rather than invest properly in the global economy and help make
things better for everyone on the planet. I basically lost everything material
I owned at the time but that was ultimately OK. The way I see it now, if it
is taken from you it wasn't really yours to begin with and ultimately not worth owning.
I lost it all because the 'higher ups' saw problems ahead, said to themselves 'What's in it for me?',
then took action to protect their interests at the expense of everyone else around them.
In exchange for all the stuff I lost, I got my basic needs met and peace of mind for which I am thankful.
Everything that is in existensce is either the product of a universe-sized 'washing machine'
that goes around and around and around in a cycle of life, death, and rebirth forever and ever
*OR*
the end result of random chance on a universal-scale
*OR*
the end result of an organized series of events caused by a higher, transcendent Intelligence.
http://www.togetherweteach.com/TCB/Old/01Genesis/o01gen01.htm [togetherweteach.com]
What you believe determines how you interact with other human beings on your journey through life.
(Score: 1) by pkrasimirov on Tuesday July 29 2014, @08:19AM
A woman brags how she prefer men to be, how to behave and what to possess. Also prospective men should call her daily because she wants so. She doesn't want to just stay in touch (she can easily dial them herself), she wants to receive calls. I guess it has someting to do with desire for attention.
I wonder if someone strongly believes women are totally not ok to not have a job, or a car, or to live with roommates. So not ok they make a website mocking them. Adopt a couch-potato/trophy-woman. Credits to Cameron [wikia.com] from Modern Family.
(Score: 1) by BsAtHome on Tuesday July 29 2014, @10:49AM
Oh come on. It is a hilarious parody piece. A good joke.
If I wasn't a dude myself, who is still refusing to grow up, I could surely think of adopting a dude, the poor sods need help and attention.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29 2014, @11:38AM
Weeeeeeeeeeeell.. I know comedy is subjective but it was bloody awful to me and cringeworthy - because scratch the surface there's a whole bunch truth of how some women are being silly with the concept of "grown up".... ie the video makers. I just looked at the video and groaned. I've seen their type before and it's to me ugly.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday July 29 2014, @05:37PM
"If I wasn't a dude myself, who is still refusing to grow up, I could surely think of adopting a dude, the poor sods need help and attention."
As of yesterday that's OK in Virgina
(Score: 4, Informative) by Thexalon on Tuesday July 29 2014, @12:28PM
To give you an idea of how seriously you should take this, the last thing Melissa Hunter was well-known for was a series of sketches called Adult Wednesday Addams [youtube.com], where she depicted Wednesday Addams (Christina Ricci style) dealing with common young adult challenges like getting an apartment and a job, walking dogs, and trying to date. So like all comedy, it's blowing things way out of proportion and exaggerating to make a point.
And the point (which certainly seems true to me) isn't all that complicated: Some guys don't grow up, they just grow old.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29 2014, @04:51PM
Wow, so Wednesday Addams grew up into Sasha Grey. Who would've guessed?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29 2014, @02:16PM
It's just a joke. Plus, you're supposed to be a man, not a whiny little boy who can dish it out, but can't take it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29 2014, @03:29PM
ya that was a funny joke, but it's been done before.
Get a job man (from American Psycho): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqllcsoRQqw [youtube.com]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Darth Turbogeek on Tuesday July 29 2014, @08:40AM
Not growing up????
I'm not seeing it. Frankly I'd rather be "juvenile" and give the finger to the concept of "growing up", even if I am 40+. And frankly I'd rather not be anywhere near a woman that wants me to be "grown up". If you cant accept me, warts and all, then fuck off. Seriously. There's more to life than being "grown up" and to being who you are than this shallow BS video wants to pigeonhole us to.
Life is short. Live while you can. Dont accept what society thinks you should be. Be who YOU want to be - Just dont be a asshole about it, you can be responsible and considerate while being yourself.
(Score: 2) by Hairyfeet on Tuesday July 29 2014, @09:04AM
That is why you need to not give up hope, there IS the perfect woman out there. I found mine, when I played a game in front of her she didn't say "oh that's for kids" she said "hey don't hog all the game time" so I built her a PC and while I'm blasting dudes in my FPS she is in her RPG going "come here cat bitch you are GOING DOWN!!"...it just warms my little black heart, sniffle. Oh and while the last GF tried to feed me rabbit food constantly the first time I went out with my princess? She said "meh this food is lousy, lets go back to my place and I'll make us some real food" which of course scared me...until she came out with this big old steakburger with fries. That is when I knew she was a keeper!
ACs are never seen so don't bother. Always ready to show SJWs for the racists they are.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29 2014, @11:02AM
Since you're sufficiently presumptive to assume that I have nothing of value to contribute because I won't give my email address so someone can crack the database and sell it off, this doesn't say much about you.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29 2014, @07:28PM
...who hates it when his prejudices are challenged. [soylentnews.org]
-- gewg_
(Score: 1) by Darth Turbogeek on Tuesday July 29 2014, @11:32AM
Two things -
a) Being single is perfectly fine, if I'm single or attached, life still is about living it. If people think that's juvenile.... dont care.
b) Not single - the SO is into a fair few juvenile things too, she's not perfect but that's not a problem. I'm not either and I'm not going to be :)
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29 2014, @12:37PM
You seem to be confusing "doing some juvenile things" with "acting juvenile".
Finger-painting is a "juvenile thing".
Throwing a tantrum because someone asked you to take out the trash is "acting juvenile".
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29 2014, @09:21PM
If I'm concentrating on Minecraft then you fucking well bet I'll throw a tantrum if someone asks me to take the garbage out!
(Score: 2, Interesting) by romlok on Tuesday July 29 2014, @10:46AM
If you're "responsible and considerate", congratulations, you've "grown up".
(Score: 3, Informative) by Darth Turbogeek on Tuesday July 29 2014, @11:27AM
No, that just means not an asshole. Responsible and considerate is something even kids can and should be.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29 2014, @02:40PM
A responsible kindergartener is one who hangs up his coat and puts his crayons away. A responsible adult is one who pays the rent/mortgage on time and mows the lawn.
That's kind of the point: "responsible and considerate" has age connotations. When you're in college, or just getting started, it's entirely appropriate to have some housemates. It may never be responsible or considerate to leave last month's milk on the counter or used condoms piled in the corner, but a lot of perfectly acceptable college-age behavior violates the social expectations we have for fully-integrated, middle-aged men. In very much the same way that perfectly acceptable behavior for a kindergartener violates the social expectations we have for college students.
It's perfectly fair to question whether society should expect men to live in packs, in hermitages, or in nuclear family structures, and it's perfectly fine to joke about people who choose not to live in or form a nuclear family. God knows we have enough humor mocking the nuclear family - if you're living in a bro-house, you should take this as evidence of social recognition: your lifestyle is just as valid as lesbians now.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29 2014, @09:24PM
You are reaaaaaaally over thinking this.
(Score: 1) by infodragon on Tuesday July 29 2014, @11:06AM
There is a difference between being "Grown up" and being responsible. I'm definitely not "Grown up," the only difference between a man and a boy is the price of his toy... However, I am very responsible, I have a full time job, we rent rather than own (due to moving from mid west to east coast), have two children that I am very involved in and of course a very loving wife.
We accept each other for who each other is, that's being responsible. We meet the physical and emotional needs of our children, that's being responsible (we do more than just meet the needs.) We pay our bills, take our our garbage, help our neighbors, pay our taxes... That's being responsible!
I will wtfbbq my friends in a "computer game," and I'll get the same from them. I play with my RC cars, rock crawling rocks! I tinker with computers and break them a lot, then have to fix them. I take my wife to the movies, out to dinners, to the park, spend money on frivolous things in the city, leave the dishes out to be done "later," buy more things for my RC cars. My wife has her own list of things that are not "grown up"
The difference is, we do all those things after what's in the first paragraph is satisfied. Being "Grown up" is not about doing anything in particular, it's about discharging your responsibility before you engage in other things.
You can be responsible and live with 30 other guys, you can be responsible and not have a job. It's how you present yourself and your show of responsibility. Not having toilet paper is a pretty telling symptom of irresponsibility.
I know this is a generalization but it is true for most; dating and marriage is about a family and what women are looking for is someone who will commit, i.e. be responsible, and provide stability and resources for the children she will bear. The time/energy that goes into physically growing a child in her womb is immense, delivery is catastrophic to the body and risk of death or severe injury is high. The caloric needs of breast feeding is astronomical. Post delivery women do recover in most cases. My wife had a level 3 tear with our first, it was horrendous. She is fully recovered but she needed significant extra support from me, on top of the extra responsibility of a mewling infant.
My wife would have left me in a heart beat long before we were married if she felt I could not be responsible. Even though she was not consciously aware of these things instinct was driving her to measure up the man to determine if he would be able to discharge his responsibility when the time came for procreation.
The perpetuation of our species is the underlining drive in all of this! Few are aware but it is what drives lust. Without it there would be much less perpetuation...
So I am not "Grown up" but I'm also not juvenile. However I live a rich, rewarding, AND responsible life.
Don't settle for shampoo, demand real poo!
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29 2014, @01:51PM
Not when you're dating again in your 40s after that first divorce, it ain't...
(Score: 1) by infodragon on Tuesday July 29 2014, @04:47PM
LOL! Was referring to the age range in the story... And if you are dating in your 40s what's stopping you from dating younger women?
Don't settle for shampoo, demand real poo!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29 2014, @05:13PM
Money.
(Score: 1) by infodragon on Tuesday July 29 2014, @06:38PM
Frequenting the strip club does not count as dating.
Don't settle for shampoo, demand real poo!
(Score: 4, Informative) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Tuesday July 29 2014, @09:27AM
Agree with what AC said above, in that the financial pressures on people (not just men) are much higher than they have been for a long time, so mocking people for sharing rooms or living with their parents or accepting benefits/charity is harsh.
However, I would like to add that commerce/industry has a vested interest in keeping men as perpetual teenage boys. In brief, they are a lot easier to sell to.
Just as media, advertising and culture attack women's self-esteem in order to try to make them obsessed about fashion and slimming and rubbing endless varieties of pointless expensive goop into themselves for no apparent reason, it manipulates men into becoming perpetual boys, who can be easily conned into parting with their cash using only the magic words[1] "tits", "beer", "guns" and "gadgets".
I make it sound like a conspiracy, but in fact it's simply the memetic ecosystem of the media trending towards the easiest way of getting under peoples' skins - namely to hack our minds via known flaws in the some of the most instinctive layers of our firmware.
The real question of TFA is, what makes a man? I fully agree that there are underdeveloped boy-men roaming about out there, but they aren't as easy to spot as simply looking at where they live, or how tidy they keep their room. It's a question I've thought about quite a lot. We've established that "manhood" doesn't automatically kick in at some arbitrary age. It's not getting married, because I've seen plenty of people continue to act like kids after (and during) their weddings. It's certainly not having kids, because we all know that it doesn't take much emotional maturity to get somebody knocked up. Hanging around afterwards and trying to be a good father though - now that is a good sign. It's not education or intelligence, but I think that does help, indirectly. It has nothing to do with having money or earning money but again, there are many paths to enlightenment and that can be one. I'm not even going to say that those people who focus their lives around partying and dressing up and spending frivolously are necessarily not "proper grown ups", even if there is a strong correlation.
The recurring theme I always come back to is making the link between behaviour and its consequences. Therefore the only answer I can come up with to "what makes a man?" is "taking responsibility". It doesn't matter what you are doing, as long as you are doing it in the knowledge that you will accept the consequences. In my opinion that's the measure of a man.
Of course the exact same applies to women as well - there are plenty of 'girls' out there living child-like lives, perpetually dodging responsibility for their choices, whining about petty things and blaming others for everything that happens to them. As soon as they stand up and accept that they are responsible for their actions, they become fully-fledged women, in my eyes.
Again, for both sexes, think about how much sense this makes commercially - people who act responsibly won't take out another credit card to buy the latest shiny that they don't need, they won't super-size every time without question. I hate to be that guy who starts hating on capitalism in every thread (and I'm not 100% against capitalism, don't get me wrong) but left unchecked it does do some weird and unpleasant things to society and culture.
[1] By "words", I mean of course "pictures".
TL;DR - Capitalism encourages emotional immaturity in the population because that it makes it easier to sell shit. Emotional maturity (ie true adulthood) is when people take responsibility for their own behaviour.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29 2014, @10:44AM
I don't think your problem is with capitalism; your problem is with marketers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDW_Hj2K0wo [youtube.com]
(Score: 2) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Tuesday July 29 2014, @11:09AM
Well yeah, but those marketers are just agents of capitalism - sell, sell, sell and acquire wealth for yourself and fuck everyone else.
Like I said above, I'm not entirely anti-capitalism. IMHO it is just a tool, and like any tool there are appropriate and inappropriate situations for its use, and like most tools it can be dangerous if proper safety procedures are not followed. Trouble with society today is that there is a powerful group of people who regard capitalism not as a tool, but as some kind of holy quest, and who believe it should be applied anywhere and everywhere as the solution to all problems[1], and that any kind of regulation is blasphemy.
Know what else is a tool? Socialism. Tell me, would you trust a carpenter who only uses a hammer to fix every problem[1], and who vilified any carpenter that dared to pick up a screwdriver?
[1] In fact it goes deeper than this. They don't use capitalism as a tool to fix problems, they use problems as an excuse to further the sacred cause of capitalism. The tail wags the dog!
(Score: 1) by romlok on Tuesday July 29 2014, @12:45PM
I'd argue that marketers aren't agents of capitalism. Buyers, sellers, and brokers are agents of capitalism.
Marketers exist solely to exploit a major flaw in common/purist capitalist thinking - the assumption that human beings are rational actors in the system.
Marketers are manipulators of capitalism, they are parasites.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29 2014, @01:07PM
Not necessarily - the problem is unscrupulous marketers. Honest marketing serves a genuine purpose: Informing people of the availability goods or services that may be genuinely useful to them but they may not otherwise know about. I know I've myself learned about useful things by marketing.
If we go a bit deeper, actually, I'd argue that GP has a point.. You say that the agents of capitalism are the sellers, and I'd argue that unscrupulous marketing is implicitly demanded for by the sellers that hire the marketers, and not by the profession of marketing itself.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29 2014, @02:13PM
Scrupulous marketing is a contradiction in terms.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29 2014, @02:40PM
No it isn't. Correlation doesn't equal causation. Just because something is uncommon in the status quo doesn't make it a contradiction.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29 2014, @05:17PM
Yea, well I'm sure there are some perfectly honest marketers and salesmen alike who are unemployed because they are less effective than their peers. And rightly so, as capitalism's ethical obligation is to make money for the share holders. Firing all the scrupulous marketers was the only ethical thing to do.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29 2014, @06:04PM
Exactly. This is what GreatAuntAnesthesia meant by "marketers are just agents of capitalism".
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29 2014, @08:08PM
I'm not entirely anti-capitalism
So, you're in favor of a family-owned restaurant
...but don't favor e.g. Philip-Morris (which has an annual income greater than Uruguay's GDP and is suing that country for requiring that cigarette packs be 80 percent "advertisement", noting the ill health effects of smoking)?
If so, it sounds like you're against Crony Capitalism (aka Fascism).
I think we could reach a meeting of the minds there.
N.B. The big problem with Capitalism is that it trends more and more toward concentrations of wealth and power (mergers and acquisitions rubber-stamped by a bought-and-paid-for gov't).
It's very anti-egalitarian.
...and it crashes and burns about every 80 years.
.
Know what else is a tool? Socialism
Many cities have a gov't-run Power and Water system that works quite well.
That's Socialism.
I'll bet you wish your municipality provided awesome broadband the way Chattanooga does.
Socialism again.
For some strange reason, I think you got your image of Socialism from American corporate media.
Socialism is practiced all over northern Europe and it works quite well.
You pay your taxes and you get your services.
They also have a Pay It Forward view of society (e.g. very affordable--even free--education).
Of course, they aren't spending trillions on "defense" and trying to project power to the other side of the planet.
Sweden, with its increasing dependence on weapons sales and its ever-closer association with USA (e.g. persecution of Julian Assange), has me concerned about them.
-- gewg_
(Score: 2) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Tuesday July 29 2014, @08:59PM
yes, I believe a meeting of minds is very possible. FWIW I live in northern Europe and strongly support the (remaining) socialist services in my country. I assure you I don't take my cues from north America. you're right about crony capitalism, but the
problem is that without powerful regulation all capitalism trends that way.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29 2014, @11:53AM
There are plenty of grown up men everywhere. It just happens that they are not the kind of guy those two girls would date.
For me, the funny part is how the whole story speaks about how their generation just likes to put the blame on anybody else (everybody else!) instead of trying to find out what THEY are doing wrong. So much easier.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by lonestar on Tuesday July 29 2014, @12:00PM
Gents, this is NOT something we should be analyzing.
Even a cynical SOB like me, who has a grave outlook on the direction our society is taking, can't get worked up about this.
But if forced to try, I'd say it confirms a lot of the things about women that makes feminists bitch so much.
(Score: 2) by GlennC on Tuesday July 29 2014, @01:16PM
It's a shame that my mod points expired yesterday.
I completely agree with you. This is intended to be comedy, and should be treated as such.
That some respondents are up in arms speaks more to them than to the parody.
Sorry folks...the world is bigger and more varied than you want it to be. Deal with it.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by JeanCroix on Tuesday July 29 2014, @01:59PM
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29 2014, @02:49PM
Very true, but the problem is not the parody in either case.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Sir Garlon on Tuesday July 29 2014, @03:24PM
I wish we could get to the point where a male could say, "Hey, this is sexist and in poor taste" without going on to imply he wishes men could get a free pass to retaliate in kind.
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by JeanCroix on Tuesday July 29 2014, @03:30PM
(Score: 2, Insightful) by GeminiDomino on Tuesday July 29 2014, @03:47PM
Saying "If men did X to women" is not inherently a wish to be able to retaliate, it's pointing out blatant hypocrisy.
"We've been attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of our culture"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 30 2014, @01:37PM
There is no female equivalent because men who live like this either can't take care of themselves or have a strong desire for simple living, the latter takes a bit of up front work to achieve comfortably.
In both of those cases the simplest thing for a woman to do is get knocked up or find some guy to take care of her.
(Score: 4, Funny) by kaszz on Tuesday July 29 2014, @01:50PM
So your own housing, car, and a job. It's all about the money. Her counter offer is the company and perhaps intimate relationship and all that follows. If that's the case there's more rational ways to make this exchange.
And if equality is worth anything. Why don't she provide this instead?
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday July 29 2014, @02:32PM
It's a humorous installment of a decades-long trend of male bashing. As a member of the Gen-X generation, I remember it beginning in the early 80's as the machismo of the 70's disco era, with its chest hair and gold chains, waned. It reached a crescendo in the early 90's when that gender studies professor asserted all heterosexual sex was rape. Now you have women graduating from college and graduate school in higher numbers than males, with higher GPAs, and having higher rates of employment than their male peers. Popular entertainment is filled with female archetypes who are strong, independent, and even muscular; Femininity is not prized or emulated the way it was in decades past.
Those things are neither good nor bad, but coupled with long-term trends of wealth concentration into the hands of a very few and a hollowing out of the American Middle Class through out-sourcing, union-busting, and shifting tax policies the role and identities of men from middle- and poor socioeconomic strata are under enormous pressure. Some will inevitably get angry, others will drop out. It happens to any group of people you systematically demean and disempower through words, messaging, and actions. In a larger sense it dramatically undermines the stability of a society, and history shows that if you do that enough, fast enough, bad things happen.
But in the narrower sense, within the scope of this conversation, we have a generation of women which has successfully sought and achieved greater power and status at the expense of their male peers. The men are reeling, and have fled the archetypes of the strong alpha male that now feel more a cruel lie than true to experience. The women, though, have not released the archetype of the strong alpha male in their own imaginations as the sort of man they would be satisfied with. In other words, women have destroyed the very sort of man they still want to be with.
It demonstrates the truth of that old adage, "Be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it."
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by Sir Garlon on Tuesday July 29 2014, @02:53PM
I thought you said in the preceding paragraph it was wealth inequality that was putting the role and identity of middle and working-class men under pressure. So who's to blame here -- women, or The Man? Or are you suggesting that women are equal partners with the billionaire oligarchy?
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday July 29 2014, @11:19PM
I wrote that the changing status of women vs. men has combined with economic pressures to challenge men on multiple fronts.
I'm curious--you've responded to some of my recent posts in a similar way, in what mostly seem to be misunderstandings. Is English not your first language? I know many Solentils aren't native speakers, so I don't want to assume you are and misread where you're coming from.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by Sir Garlon on Wednesday July 30 2014, @02:38PM
I'm from Boston. :-) I guess my responses are because your style can ruffle some feathers. When you clarify it becomes obvious your position is reasonable.
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
(Score: 2) by cafebabe on Wednesday July 30 2014, @06:35PM
That's a no, then.
1702845791×2
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29 2014, @08:22PM
It reached a crescendo
No, it did not reach a crescendo; it reached a PEAK.
A crescendo is the *process* of reaching that peak.
-- gewg_
(Score: 1) by jbWolf on Tuesday July 29 2014, @02:54PM
Based on the responses, me thinks a nerve was touched with this article.
I have a saying: "Better to be happily unmarried than unhappily married." A lot of times, society places too much emphasis on relationships and marriage. (See 50% divorce rate.) With that said, I am married and most of the time I am happy with the marriage. Don't get me wrong; we have our rough spots -- as all marriages do.
I ran across a great website [marriagebuilders.com] a few years ago when we were having some issues and it explains a lot -- not only about marriage but about relationships in general. There's a tremendous amount of great information here. The best place to start is with basic concepts [marriagebuilders.com]. (In a round about way, it explains the gold digging phenomenon and it's not always bad... which I'll explain in a moment.)
Basically, you find out what makes you and your partner tick. There are basic needs everyone has and we need it in varying amounts: affection, sexual fulfillment, conversation, recreational companionship, honesty and openness, physical attractiveness, financial support, domestic support, family commitment, and admiration. The idea is to find out which of these things (which may be more than one) that makes your partner most happy and you focus on those things for them. (Your partner should focus on the things you like most.)
One of those items was surprising to me: some people feel love through financial support... and quite to my surprise, my wife has that need although I had never suspected before we dived into this. (And we had been married for about 8 years by that point.) I want to emphasize that she is not a gold digger, but she likes when I can bring home the bacon. She saves money like crazy. (Sometimes I have to remind her that she is penny wise and pound foolish.) I think a huge problem in today's marriages is that the current financial crisis doesn't allow people to fulfill that need all the time. I have been out of a job for a while and my wife has adapted gracefully. Of course, I try to make her feel loved in other ways.
One surprise I found in myself was physical attractiveness. I kept telling her that her looks didn't matter... and honestly, I will love her even if she is ever disfigured. Still, I like her to be attractive and it is important to me that she try to make herself attractive to me even as we get older and can't help turning gray and wrinkly. It isn't important to me that she look like a supermodel. What's important to me is that she tries to be attractive for her age and it will make me love her all the more.
The big thing as one goes through what is on the website, is that you realize your needs aren't the same as your spouse's. I shouldn't be doing to her what makes me happy. I need to be doing to her what makes her happy and vice versa. Easy to say and hard to do. I also have discovered my needs change over time and as circumstances in life change so it's not a "forever" thing.
Sorry this is so long. I won't bore y'all anymore except to say I urge you to check out the website yourself. The man who made wrote this information has the background, did the research, and put in the time. He also makes a hell of a lot of sense me, a guy who likes logic. I think it will be informative for a lot of you as well.
www.jb-wolf.com [jb-wolf.com]
(Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday July 29 2014, @05:57PM
"physical attractiveness."
There must be some kind of training manual handed out to all women with the marriage license, where once the wedding ring goes on, its bye bye see thru lace, and hello comfy sweatpants. And the hair gets cut to about 4 inches long no matter how hot it was. For decades I've watched my female coworkers put on this show when they get married. I've gotten pretty good at looking at a bunch of women and picking out the single ones just by clothing style, don't much matter if they're 20 or 50, they're stereotypical enough that I'm pretty good at it. Ten seconds looking at the clothes and I know what I'll see, or not see, on the ring finger, probably about 4/5ths of the time. Give it a try, bet you'll agree with me.
I suppose this should be embarrassing, but outside of work I dress pretty much the same way as I did when I was 3. Other than newer clothes and recent styles. Clean jeans and a clean tee shirt, stuff like that. No bait and switch for me, and not for men in general.
I think this is part of the bigger issue where women assume men can be "fixed" or "fixer uppers" because they as women are planning to change everything about themselves and their wardrobe once they catch a man, so surely its not asking much for a man to change everything about himself also? Well it doesn't usually work like that.
(Score: 2) by cafebabe on Wednesday July 30 2014, @06:48PM
There's a famous quote on this topic:-
1702845791×2
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Bob9113 on Tuesday July 29 2014, @05:18PM
The video is funny, and I think the majority of guys can happily laugh about it.
Would the converse be as funny?
- The size of a diamond is not a valid measure of love, and it is a really bad investment.
- You have enough shoes.
- Your ass does look fat in that dress, but that's because your ass is fat. If you lose weight, it will make your butt look better. But that doesn't mean you are ugly; you still make us horny.
- That ridiculously hot woman over there? Your boyfriend wants to have sex with her. That doesn't mean he doesn't love you.
- Until the moment a man holds his first child in his arms, he does not want to have children. Men who are not fathers do not like children the way women do.
- The grandness of your wedding is not a measure of your worth.
(Score: 2) by velex on Friday August 01 2014, @05:27PM
I'm late to the party, but I wanted to share two lines of thought I had about this. I think the other comments have pretty well hashed out what may be going on here from the perspective of men: a young man in his 20s may not have the resources to appease Ms. Hunter, and there are clearly issues of poor hygiene probably stemming from poor upbringing. How could anybody live that way? Basic cleaning supplies and toilet paper aren't going to break a budget.
Nevertheless, I used to live with a guy who is pretty much what TFS is describing, so I know there are guys like that. I'll also admit to lapses in my own chores when the bottle of vodka in front of me was more important, but at least I always kept toilet paper stocked! I have not watched the video because it'd only fuel a misogynist rant.
And yes, it's supposed to be comedy. But things like these are why I stopped watching TV entirely. After a while I start to understand the feminists. It's not funny and it just gets old.
My first thought is that Ms. Hunter needs to examine her strategy in selecting potential dates. Is she desperate or something? From what it sounds like, I doubt any of these dudebros would get past a first date with me, much less progressing to hanging out at their place.
Then we move to dating. If we're going to have gender equality---and that's something I know I want because it'd make my life a lot easier---, real socioeconomic gender equality, equality of wages is what I'm getting at, then that turns Ms. Hunter's desire for her date to pay her way into a problem. She just turned herself into a sexual object! Is she honestly saying that the privilege of being seen with her is something bought and sold? Did she really just admit that she's a whore--or at least an "escort?"
Perhaps she merely didn't think that through all the way or perhaps she does not desire gender equality. That's fine. I know a lot of women who do not desire gender equality and work just for some extra cash. Those women are perfectly fine with the man being the breadwinner and providing the home and food, and I don't believe I've heard any of those women talk about wage inequality. They want the world of traditional gender roles, and being in the traditional role of a woman makes them happy. In that world of traditional gender roles, it makes sense that the man would pay for the date without necessarily turning the woman into a sexual object.
I think it makes sense at least. That's one place where the feminist world-view and my own greatly deviate.
Now woah there, white knights. I'm not saying traditional gender roles are what I want. I'm certainly not saying that's the world I want to live in. I'm an individual. These women who desire traditional gender roles are also individuals. An egalitarian framework should let us all be happy.
So that's one thing. Ms. Hunter needs to examine what she wants from a date and correct her method of selecting potential dates.
The other thing are the potential problems when things like this get popular. Sure, this is comedy, maybe not to me, but I'm sure her fans did plenty of rofling. I can ignore it.
The other group it's not going to be comedy to are the feminists who always seem to have a knack for blowing things completely out of proportion and somehow getting sexist policy implemented.
Now, the college I went to had---still has---a problem. It's a big problem. And if you're assigned the male gender at birth, you're going to hear about it. Formally. Because of policy. Because you can't move into your dorm until you attend a presentation and sign a form about it. They have a rape culture.
I'm still not certain what exactly a rape culture is. It has something to do with date rape. As far as I can tell, it's a culture that holds that a letter on a legal document (assigned gender at birth) can determine your sexual orientation, access to illegal drugs, and whether or not you're a rapist who has merely not been caught in the act yet.
Essentially, this is my problem. I'm an individual. I don't have the sexual orientation policies like that presume I have. I don't have the access to illegal drugs policies like that presume I have. Finally, I don't even have the desire to use illegal drugs to have sex with somebody at all, certainly not a woman. Disclaimer for white knights who can't read: no, I don't date women because I hate them; no, I haven't attempted and failed to date women and am angry with an entire gender because I think I just deserve to get laid; go back and read the part where I basically said I was gay.
(Of course, if you look at my posting history, that's not quite the case. It's complicated.)
What I'm saying is that this can be quite easily ignored as poor-taste humor from a woman who is clearly sexist herself right up until a feminist decides to run with it.
Will we see policies in dorms that men need to have their room inspected every week and if the toilet isn't clean enough for the Virgin Mary to eat out of, he'll be required to attend a workshop while women's rooms are left in peace?
Well, why even bother with inspections? We already know, just like my college knew, that anybody wanting to move into a dorm that was assigned the male gender at birth is not an individual. That person is going to engage in date rape if we don't tell him that we already know what he's thinking. Now we also know that person is not going to maintain a clean room and perform basic hygiene, thanks to the scientific research we have here.
Let's just implement a policy requiring all assigned males (remember, that letter on the birth certificate determines all, not messy stuff like biology, physiology, or even--eech--individuality) to attend regular workshops regardless of what their individual habits are.
Except we're not going to do it for their own good. No, why bother? We're going to do it because we know that all assigned males are going to date women, and we can't have these college-aged ladies exposed to their level of filth and squalor. It's an unpossible proposition that even if the individual is a slob that perhaps he won't be dating women (for whatever reason, I'm not just talking about homosexuality here, maybe World of Warcraft, who knows).
There. Done. We've just implemented yet another policy that isn't about improving anything or solving any problems but is simply a policy designed to turn anyone assigned the male gender at birth into a sexual object whose only purpose in life is to date, provide for, and otherwise appease women. If somebody assigned the male gender at birth does not live solely to appease women, then s/he is a failure and should be shunned.
(Which is what the white knight who replies to this is really thinking. Consider the raw sexism of the white knight, but that's a rant for another time.)
So, if there's ever a reader for this comment, does that make sense to you? We can say, ok, this is a work by a clearly sexist individual who isn't very good at dating, and it poses no real harm. However, we must always beware the feminists and our natural urge to devalue individuality in men. That is, at least, dear reader, if what we want is gender equality.
Maybe we don't. But, then again, what the hell do I care? I don't think I'll be considering living in a dorm when I finally get back to school. I'm too old. It'd be weird, and they wouldn't let me have my booze. So whatever.