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posted by azrael on Thursday July 31 2014, @11:32AM   Printer-friendly
from the how-many-dead-children-will-it-take dept.

The Independent reports on the secret report that aids Israeli public relations:

"Israeli spokesmen have their work cut out explaining how they have killed more than 1,000 Palestinians in Gaza, most of them civilians, compared with just three civilians killed in Israel by Hamas rocket and mortar fire. But on television and radio and in newspapers, Israeli government spokesmen such as Mark Regev appear slicker and less aggressive than their predecessors, who were often visibly indifferent to how many Palestinians were killed."

The booklet is "...highly illuminating about the gap between what Israeli officials and politicians really believe, and what they say, the latter shaped in minute detail by polling to determine what Americans want to hear."

"The booklet is full of meaty advice about how they should shape their answers for different audiences. For example, the study says that "Americans agree that Israel 'has a right to defensible borders'. But it does you no good to define exactly what those borders should be. Avoid talking about borders in terms of pre- or post-1967, because it only serves to remind Americans of Israel's military history. Particularly on the left this does you harm. For instance, support for Israel's right to defensible borders drops from a heady 89 per cent to under 60 per cent when you talk about it in terms of 1967."

Related Stories

Rocket Strikes in Israel — There's an App for That 7 comments

Paraphrased from a Foreign Policy blog (sign-up required):

The popular mobile app "Yo" has been described as the most pointless tech start-up to recently receive major funding. The idea is like a parody of post-modern life: An app for "post-text" communication that does nothing but send the message "yo" to your friends. That's it and it has $1 million in funding. Now, it's been reimagined as a tool in Israel's war against Hamas.

Developed by Israeli coders, Red Alert complements the army's warning sirens that alerts Israelis to incoming rockets. Now, Red Alert has partnered with Yo to send "yo"s anytime a siren sounds in Israel. Each time a rocket triggers the system, you get a "yo."

So far, no word on whether any enterprising developers are monitoring strikes in Gaza using Yo.

Lessons from Gaza: High-tech Military Power Less than it Seems 60 comments

With the UN calling for a ceasefire between Israel and Palestinians in the Gaza Strip an article written by Gary Brecher and first published in 2012 by NSFWCORP (now part of Pando), lessons from Gaza - suggesting that Palestinian durability may beat Israel's high-tech weaponry, remains remarkably relevant today.

What's going on in Gaza is war, but not the kind any commander from the past would understand. On paper, Israel should be winning easily, because they've got the weapons, the numbers, the organization. The weapons Hamas is firing into Israel are primitive things, unguided rocket artillery, the kind that couldn't hit the ground if it wasn't for the law of gravity. On the other side, the Israelis get the best weaponry the US can give them.

But it's not that simple. Israel may win this battle, but it's lost the war already. You see that in the confusion the IDF shows about what to do. They've tried stomping hard on Gaza. In late 2008 through early 2009, "Operation Cast Lead" sent IDF troops and planes smashing into this tiny overpopulated slum. They killed 1400 Palestinians, and it didn't do much but make everybody sick to their stomachs - including even some Israelis, once they got over their initial gloating.

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  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @11:40AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @11:40AM (#75863)
    I don't care about either side in this fight anymore.
    They're both guilty of terrible crimes and of killing many innocent people.

    Neither side has the moral high ground any longer.

    Plus they've been killing each other for longer than i have been alive.
    And will continue long after i'm dead.

    The only way it will end is if one side wipes out the other.
    And then whoever is left will find a new party to attack.
    • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Covalent on Thursday July 31 2014, @12:03PM

      by Covalent (43) on Thursday July 31 2014, @12:03PM (#75871) Journal

      Sadly I agree with your last statement. See US vs. Native Americans or UK vs. Aborigines. Neither native group was wiped out entirely, but their numbers were decreased so much that they were easily manhandled by colonial powers and their concerns were mostly ignored. They were given pieces of land nobody wanted and mostly forgotten.

      In Israel / Palestine, the killing is slower than the birth rate (by a great deal). Neither side will ever kill the other if they continue their current tactics. Instead, both sides will get overcrowded (particularly the Palestinian side, as they have a very high birth rate). The result will just be more fighting and more violence and more unrest.

      The only way this gets settled is if it escalates into real war, but I don't see that happening in your lifetime (and I don't need to know how old you are to guess that). Real war is probably over for a long time now.

      --
      You can't rationally argue somebody out of a position they didn't rationally get into.
      • (Score: 1) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @02:04PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @02:04PM (#75912)

        Here, take this Most relevant sig award.

        Sad state of affairs.

        • (Score: 1) by Wootery on Thursday July 31 2014, @02:05PM

          by Wootery (2341) on Thursday July 31 2014, @02:05PM (#75913)

          Oops, forgot to sign in. Must stop doing that...

      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @03:07PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @03:07PM (#75942)

        The Palestinians are already being put into reservations, now they need to be put on the bottle and the dole, and finally have them fight amongst each other for official recognition as Palestinian tribes -- that's how the US dealt with its natives.

      • (Score: 2) by mojo chan on Thursday July 31 2014, @07:19PM

        by mojo chan (266) on Thursday July 31 2014, @07:19PM (#76060)

        This is what happens when ancient texts promise real-estate. Incomplete religious documents from thousands of years ago are not valid title deeds.

        --
        const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      • (Score: 2) by isostatic on Thursday July 31 2014, @07:20PM

        by isostatic (365) on Thursday July 31 2014, @07:20PM (#76061) Journal

        I suspect in my lifetime the situation will be mostly irrelevant as global warming makes the area uninhabitable. The Israeli population will emigrate to the U.S, and Europe will become more and more islamic.

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by azrael on Thursday July 31 2014, @12:25PM

      by azrael (2855) on Thursday July 31 2014, @12:25PM (#75875)
      This sort of 'both sides are equally guilty' apathy is a part of what allows the problem to continue.

      The dead children weren't guilty. The next children to be killed won't have been guilty either.

      Maybe the leaders on either side are guilty - I certainly wouldn't want to defend them.

      But there has to be an answer. If the US had the political will to stop this, then things could improve.

      Flood the occupied territories with international peace keeping troops. Give them a mandate to protect civilians. Give them a mandate to protect themselves. Get agreement from Hamas that the peacekeepers can go after Palestinians firing rockets in exchange for agreement that peacekeepers will enforce a two-state solution and push Israel back to a set of borders agreed by Palestinians and the international community. Israel won't like that, but Obama should tell them right now that the next Palestinian child they kill will see him support pre-1967 or pre-78 borders.

      Time for the world to force a fair settlement onto BOTH sides and if Israel won't comply then total embargo. Nothing goes in or out, no money, no trade, no international recognition.
      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Dunbal on Thursday July 31 2014, @12:53PM

        by Dunbal (3515) on Thursday July 31 2014, @12:53PM (#75885)

        Guilt has nothing to do with it. War is about money. Period. If you're shooting or being shot at in a war, you are not the person making money.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @05:48PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @05:48PM (#76021)

          > Guilt has nothing to do with it. War is about money. Period.

          Of course guilt has everything to do with it. The money men are imminently guilty, evil even because they are acting out of greed. The people who blindly support them for ideology are guilty too, particularly those who do so out of ideology and fear rather than their right to sleep in their own homes, with basic infrastructure like electricity, fresh water, food markets and the ability to support their family.

      • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Ethanol-fueled on Thursday July 31 2014, @01:10PM

        by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Thursday July 31 2014, @01:10PM (#75895) Homepage

        " If the US had the political will to stop this, then things could improve. "

        If the US had the political will to solve the problem once and for all, it would nuke the entire Middle-east, including Israel, all the way out to North Africa and Turkey.

        • (Score: 2, Insightful) by azrael on Thursday July 31 2014, @01:25PM

          by azrael (2855) on Thursday July 31 2014, @01:25PM (#75899)
          Well if you define politics as swapping one problem for another, that would be the mother of all political solutions!
      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @03:50PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @03:50PM (#75962)

        you obviously haven't been around too long. your suggestions would just draw more innocents into the line of fire. the BEST thing that could come of your suggestions? WW3.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @06:33PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @06:33PM (#76039)

        > Flood the occupied territories with international peace keeping troops.

        In fact I think that Palestine will be the first territory to be in the one world government. Wonderful for propaganda purposes.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by nyder on Thursday July 31 2014, @02:20PM

      by nyder (4525) on Thursday July 31 2014, @02:20PM (#75919)

      Israel is a group of homeless people that decided to steal land from the Palestine's. Not once in history, but twice. And most recently in modern history.

      So does Israel deserve the hate? Yes. They earned it by their actions. I mean, look at them, they are murders. Sure, they think they are doing "Gods" work, but it is still murder.

      There is no justification that makes what they do right. They invaded someone else's land, been bombing and treating those people who's land they took and border on now like shit for 50 years. They are scum.

      And worse is America supports them, so that makes up scum loving idiots.

      • (Score: 5, Informative) by dublet on Thursday July 31 2014, @02:45PM

        by dublet (2994) on Thursday July 31 2014, @02:45PM (#75930)
        Not quite the Israelis who stole land from the Palestines.

        On 29 November 1947, the United Nations General Assembly recommended the adoption and implementation of the partition plan [wikipedia.org] of Mandatory Palestine [wikipedia.org]. On 14 May 1948, David Ben-Gurion, the Executive Head of the World Zionist Organization[9] and president of the Jewish Agency for Palestine, declared "the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz Israel, to be known as the State of Israel," a state independent upon the termination of the British Mandate for Palestine [wikipedia.org], 15 May 1948.

        Emphasis mine. Though you are right that the 1947 borders [wikimedia.org] don't reflect the current ones [wikimedia.org].

        • (Score: 2) by mojo chan on Thursday July 31 2014, @07:24PM

          by mojo chan (266) on Thursday July 31 2014, @07:24PM (#76062)

          The plan was pushed for heavily by the future Israelis though. They wanted that land and saw the UN was the way to get it.

          --
          const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 01 2014, @04:56AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 01 2014, @04:56AM (#76248)

            Yeah, I don't think the idea that the UN was the gun and the zionists were the ones pulling the trigger is any great secret. There was even a big debate within the jewish community about the wisdom of creating the state of Israel. It was even dramatized as the backdrop of the excellent Robbie Benson movie The Chosen. [imdb.com]

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Thursday July 31 2014, @03:31PM

        by GreatAuntAnesthesia (3275) on Thursday July 31 2014, @03:31PM (#75952) Journal

        Not going to disagree with you here, but to me the whole "who started it" thing is kind of moot - once the problem gets out of living memory (OK, we're not quite there with 1947 but not far off) the history stops mattering, you have to stop looking back and start looking forward. Otherwise you end up with crazy situations like in Northern Ireland where both sides feel they have a claim on the land because their fathers and grandfathers lived there... also, if we are going to go back and start re-drawing he map based on past injustices, then the world is very quickly going to look very different indeed, and most of us Europeans and Americans will wind up homeless.

        Anyway, before anyone goes accusing me of be pro-this side or anti-that side (fully expecting my comments elsewhere in this thread to cost me some karma), here's how I feel about the whole stupid situation: http://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=2871&threshold=0&commentsort=0&mode=improvedthreaded&pid=68755 [soylentnews.org]

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 01 2014, @02:41AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 01 2014, @02:41AM (#76217)

          once the problem gets out of living memory (OK, we're not quite there with 1947 but not far off) the history stops mattering,

          Only to Americans who think 100 years is a long time.

          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Friday August 01 2014, @09:46AM

            by GreatAuntAnesthesia (3275) on Friday August 01 2014, @09:46AM (#76303) Journal

            I take your point, people in the middle east have long memories. Too long. What I should have said was "the history should stop mattering."

            I mean where exactly do you draw the line? Should the Native Americans be allowed to claim back the lands stolen from them by Europeans? You want to give Australia back to the aborigines, New zealand back to the Maori and Peru back to the Aztecs? Plenty of people would say that sounds fair, but it sure would leave a lot of people homeless - people whose only crime was to be born twelve generations down the bloodline of some European settlers who dickishly moved in on someone else's land. What about the Caribbean? Should all those descendants of black slaves be sent back to Africa, so that the families of the original inhabitants (if any of them actually survived Colombus and his ilk) can sip rum in the sunshine? As a white Englishman descended from various French, Viking, Anglo-Saxon and Roman invaders, do I have a right to go and claim a piece of France, Italy, Germany or Scandinavia? Should only people of pure Celtic lineage should be permitted to remain on this little island where I live? Or did the Celts displace someone? Maybe we should abandon the whole damned country and leave it as a monument to some tribe of extinct Neanderthals. Hell, you want to go back in time just a few thousand years more, every single one of us, from Manilla to Manchester, is an African. There's a valley somewhere in central Africa that's going to get veeeery crowded...

            Saying "I have a right to live here because I was born & raised here" is one thing. Saying "I have a right to live here because my great great grandfather was here a hundred years ago" doesn't actually make any sense. And as for "I will kill you for that thing your great grandfather did to my great grandfather", well that's just fucking stupid. I'm sure that learning the history of your people at your grandfather's knee is a wonderful thing (not all of us get that opportunity), but history is just that - history. Gone, dead, hopefully remembered and learned from but ideally buried. The here and now is what actually counts.

      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by etherscythe on Thursday July 31 2014, @03:51PM

        by etherscythe (937) on Thursday July 31 2014, @03:51PM (#75964) Journal

        I think one of the big things dragging out the fight now is that even when Palestinian and Israeli leaders come to some kind of agreement, the Israelis do nothing to stop continuing forced eviction and settlement on Palestinian-owned land. I don't see rocket attacks as justified retribution for this, but you're not going to get peace from trampling your newly-mollified opponent's civilian base.

        I think if the US is going to insist on supporting Israel, we need to make it contingent on them not making stupid moves like that. It's clearly against everybody's national security interest (not to mention making us guilty by association). Sadly it seems to be an important part of Israel's right-wing political motivation, so it's going to be a tough sell.

        --
        "Fake News: anything reported outside of my own personally chosen echo chamber"
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @05:57PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @05:57PM (#76025)

          > I think if the US is going to insist on supporting Israel,
          > we need to make it contingent on them not making stupid moves like that.

          Some within Israel are starting to think they don't need the billions in dollars of US aid if it comes with strings. [newyorker.com]

          • (Score: 2) by etherscythe on Thursday July 31 2014, @09:06PM

            by etherscythe (937) on Thursday July 31 2014, @09:06PM (#76108) Journal

            That's an interesting sentiment. Maybe they wouldn't be so bold if Iran wasn't taking a softer stance on a lot of topics recently. Without US backing I suspect Israel would be in a really bad position, successful war in '67 or not. As we've seen in Iraq, it's one thing to muscle your way in, and another thing entirely to continue holding ground while surrounded by enemies...

            --
            "Fake News: anything reported outside of my own personally chosen echo chamber"
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @03:45PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @03:45PM (#75961)

      this echos my sentiments as well. for the past week, every time i see headline about a possible cease-fire, i've said to myself, "cease-fire? no. increase-fire. let the fuckers get it over with. quit prolonging the inevitable."

    • (Score: 2) by dcollins on Thursday July 31 2014, @03:58PM

      by dcollins (1168) on Thursday July 31 2014, @03:58PM (#75970) Homepage

      Yay genocide!

    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @05:42PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @05:42PM (#76016)

      > The only way it will end is if one side wipes out the other.
      > And then whoever is left will find a new party to attack.

      That is the coward's way out and it is really easy to say that when you aren't one of the people that will be wiped out. It inherently favors the side with overwhelming military superiority thus it is implicitly a might-makes-right argument.

  • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday July 31 2014, @12:09PM

    by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Thursday July 31 2014, @12:09PM (#75873) Homepage Journal

    You know what you call someone with a socialist philosophy who hates Jews, yes? Large parts of Europe are only "deciding on a master race" away from precisely adopting the entire Nazi Germany political platform.

    Here in the US we're split between racists on the right who cover hating Jews and thinking their race is special and socialists on the left who are all "shame on Israel for retaliating when attacked" but, thankfully they're smaller minorities than across the pond. Still, we're essentially one unifying, charismatic leader away from starting a fourth reich covering two continents.

    --
    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by NoMaster on Thursday July 31 2014, @12:36PM

      by NoMaster (3543) on Thursday July 31 2014, @12:36PM (#75880)

      You know what you call someone with a socialist philosophy who hates Jews, yes? Large parts of Europe are only "deciding on a master race" away from precisely adopting the entire Nazi Germany political platform.

      Hint to Americans and others ignorant of history: just because something has "Socialist" in its name doesn't mean it is.

      Kinda like "People's Democratic Republic", "Conservative Think-tank", "hamburger steak", or "pound cake"...

      --
      Live free or fuck off and take your naïve Libertarian fantasies with you...
      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Thursday July 31 2014, @01:21PM

        by GreatAuntAnesthesia (3275) on Thursday July 31 2014, @01:21PM (#75896) Journal

        > Hint to Americans and others ignorant of history: just because something has "Socialist" in its name doesn't mean it is.
        > Kinda like "People's Democratic Republic", "Conservative Think-tank", "hamburger steak", or "pound cake"...

        Or "land of the free, home of the brave"

        • (Score: 2) by dyingtolive on Thursday July 31 2014, @05:05PM

          by dyingtolive (952) on Thursday July 31 2014, @05:05PM (#75996)

          That one makes for a catchy corporate slogan though.

          --
          Don't blame me, I voted for moose wang!
        • (Score: 2) by isostatic on Thursday July 31 2014, @07:25PM

          by isostatic (365) on Thursday July 31 2014, @07:25PM (#76063) Journal

          Yes, "home of the brave", where the first sign of criminal behaviour (killing 3 people) leads to martial law while the population cowers in their homes watching rolling news.

      • (Score: 4, Informative) by metamonkey on Thursday July 31 2014, @02:36PM

        by metamonkey (3174) on Thursday July 31 2014, @02:36PM (#75925)

        Well, just for the record, a pound cake is called a pound cake because you make it with a pound of flour, a pound of butter, a pound of sugar, and a pound of eggs.

        --
        Okay 3, 2, 1, let's jam.
      • (Score: 4, Informative) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday July 31 2014, @04:04PM

        by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Thursday July 31 2014, @04:04PM (#75971) Homepage Journal

        Might want to double check your own history. Germany was very much socialist under Nazi rule. Everything was "the people's this", "the people's that", "the people's car".

        --
        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by urza9814 on Thursday July 31 2014, @04:56PM

          by urza9814 (3954) on Thursday July 31 2014, @04:56PM (#75991) Journal

          ...so you're rebutting "names don't always accurately reflect reality" with more names that don't accurately reflect reality?

          Also, by this same logic, democracy is bad because it creates the NSA. Capitalism is bad because it creates Bank of America. So the only good system is no system, right?

          ...although actually, as an anarcho-syndicalist, I'm inclined to agree with that last point myself!

          • (Score: 2, Troll) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday July 31 2014, @05:41PM

            by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Thursday July 31 2014, @05:41PM (#76015) Homepage Journal

            And you're casting doubt on their reflection of reality with absolutely nothing to back yourself up. At least I pointed to something, even if I was too lazy to research specifics.

            Democracy is bad. It is by definition oppression of the minority by the majority. Capitalism, however, is a happy thing and had nothing to do with the fuckwadery that's gone on with BofA. Every single bit of financial corruption can be logically shown to in fact fly directly in the face of capitalism.

            We're nowhere close on politics then. I'm more a fascist libertarian with a bit of rational anarchist thrown in for flavor. The People really should never be in charge of a damned thing except themselves. Half of them are of below average intelligence and I sure as hell don't want them having a say in laws. They do bloody stupid, oppressive things like requiring you to belong to a union to work somewhere. The People can't fucking wait to oppress each other and do it every chance they get by passing laws saying anything that they think is good is compulsory and anything they dislike is illegal.

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
            • (Score: 2) by urza9814 on Thursday July 31 2014, @06:31PM

              by urza9814 (3954) on Thursday July 31 2014, @06:31PM (#76035) Journal

              And you're casting doubt on their reflection of reality with absolutely nothing to back yourself up. At least I pointed to something, even if I was too lazy to research specifics.

              They were owned by the government. That's not socialism.

              Capitalism, however, is a happy thing and had nothing to do with the fuckwadery that's gone on with BofA. Every single bit of financial corruption can be logically shown to in fact fly directly in the face of capitalism.

              And yet, it still happened in a system that calls itself capitalist. That was my point.

              I'm more a fascist libertarian

              What does that even mean? That's a bit like saying you're a Christian Athiest...

              The People really should never be in charge of a damned thing except themselves. Half of them are of below average intelligence and I sure as hell don't want them having a say in laws.

              Right. The people should be in charge of themselves. And *only* themselves. I don't want "The People" writing laws either. I don't want *anyone* writing laws! :)

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @06:47PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @06:47PM (#76047)

                >> I'm more a fascist libertarian
                >
                > What does that even mean?

                It means he embraces all the ways libertarianism fucks up in the real world versus the idealistic libertarianism of the theoretical "best of all possible worlds." I can't believe someone would admit to being such a piece of shit. It's like saying the best part of Christianity is all the anti-science and oppression.

              • (Score: 3, Interesting) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday July 31 2014, @06:50PM

                by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Thursday July 31 2014, @06:50PM (#76049) Homepage Journal

                Owned by the government in a popularly elected form of government is the same as saying owned by The People. Look at every single example of socialist government that has ever been practised and that is exactly what you find.

                Yeah, the US has not been anything close to real capitalism in a long time, regardless of what is claimed. Chronie-capitalism, corrupt-capitalism, whatever you prefer. All of them mean other than capitalism because capitalism is competition without attempting to buy laws against, purchase, or financially ruin your competitors so that you don't have to compete. Anything that intentionally lessens competition is uncapitalistic.

                Fascist Libertarian means I acknowledge that some form of government is necessary and choose fascism as it is potentially less oppressive and easier to overthrow than any popularly elected government, should the need arise. This of course presupposes that you DO NOT disarm the populace. That is the very first step every tyrant takes to ensure their reign can not be challenged.

                --
                My rights don't end where your fear begins.
            • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Thursday July 31 2014, @10:28PM

              by bob_super (1357) on Thursday July 31 2014, @10:28PM (#76146)

              > Half of them are of below average intelligence

              Nope, they are below MEDIAN intelligence.
              Considering that in my observations the number of total idiots far exceeds the geniuses, there is hope that half of the people are actually above average. Call me an optimist...

              • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday July 31 2014, @10:38PM

                by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Thursday July 31 2014, @10:38PM (#76153) Homepage Journal

                On the IQ curve, mean and median match exactly, as do the up/down slopes. Though I'll grant you my statement only holds true for very large values of 49% and an extremely precise measurement of the mean/median rather than gauging average as say the first standard deviation.

                --
                My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Thursday July 31 2014, @10:56PM

                  by bob_super (1357) on Thursday July 31 2014, @10:56PM (#76156)

                  > On the IQ curve, mean and median match exactly, as do the up/down slopes.

                  Man, I gotta move.
                  As previously stated, my samples don't agree, and I'm already surrounded by engineers.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @05:24PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @05:24PM (#76010)

          Actually in the Third Reich the car was named "Kraft-durch-Freude-Wagen" ("Power-by-Joy car") or short "KdF-Wagen", no "people" found in that term.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @12:39PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @12:39PM (#75881)

      Hating Israel and hating Jews are different things.

      • (Score: 5, Informative) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Thursday July 31 2014, @01:24PM

        by GreatAuntAnesthesia (3275) on Thursday July 31 2014, @01:24PM (#75898) Journal

        Yup. However equating anyone who criticises Israel to Hitler is an easy way for Israel / supporters of Israel to avoid justifying their actions. It's like argument-proof Godwin-mail armour.

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by urza9814 on Thursday July 31 2014, @05:05PM

          by urza9814 (3954) on Thursday July 31 2014, @05:05PM (#75995) Journal

          The irony here is that people who *actually survived the Nazi concentration camps* are making comparisons between *Israel* and Nazi Germany.

          http://esperanzaproductions.wordpress.com/2014/07/22/holocaust-survivors-moving-condemnation-of-israels-treatment-of-the-palestinians/ [wordpress.com]

          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by bob_super on Thursday July 31 2014, @10:31PM

            by bob_super (1357) on Thursday July 31 2014, @10:31PM (#76149)

            I'm more interested in the South Africans who keep pointing out the parallels with Apartheid.
            Because that's a situation that was proven solvable without blowing up things everywhere, as long as the people involved are capable of a bit of humanity.

            • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @10:36PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @10:36PM (#76151)

              That took a US boycott which Reagan vetoed and was eventually over-ruled.
              Likud and friends have waaaay more pull in DC than South Africa ever did,
              especially with the evangelical influence on congress.

              • (Score: 2) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Friday August 01 2014, @09:55AM

                by GreatAuntAnesthesia (3275) on Friday August 01 2014, @09:55AM (#76306) Journal

                More to point, Apartheid in ZA was never about religion. Racists can be reformed, oppressed and angry people can be emancipated and calmed, compromise and reconciliation is possible. Religion puts its roots in a lot deeper. Israel and Gaza will never be resolved as long as God is up there telling them all that it's OK to bomb innocents.

      • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Thexalon on Thursday July 31 2014, @03:19PM

        by Thexalon (636) on Thursday July 31 2014, @03:19PM (#75946)

        Also distinct are disagreeing with the current policies of the current government of Israel, and hating Israel.

        One of the interesting phenomena around any discussion of Israel is that it is not uncommon for US media personalities to be accused of anti-Semitism for saying the same things that are printed in Haaretz [haaretz.com]. That's because AIPAC (by far the most powerful Israel-interest lobby group in the US) is not lobbying for Israel so much as the policies of the Likud Party and its allies, and are decidedly lukewarm to the Israeli government when it's controlled by Labor, Kadima, or other left wing parties. One reaction to that by some American Jews is to switch their contributions to other organizations like J-Street.

        --
        The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
        • (Score: 2, Informative) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday July 31 2014, @04:32PM

          by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Thursday July 31 2014, @04:32PM (#75979) Homepage Journal

          Please, "disagreeing with the current policies of the current government of Israel" is just a way to say "they're defending themselves too effectively" without making the speaker feel like a colossal douche.

          Point one, Israel essentially never fires first. Point two, Israel always stops while the threat still exists. Point three Israel avoids killing civilians whenever possible unless combatants are using them as human shields.

          None of the above can be said of the Palestinians. They are the aggressors. They will never cease being so as long as either Israel or themselves exist. They hide munitions and combatants in mosques, hospitals, and schools, using innocent human beings as bullet-catchers. There is no possible world in which they are the good guys.

          The truth of the matter is Israel is too gentle and respectful of human life and it has prolonged a terribly bloody war that should have ended decades ago. If they'd simply said fuck the cost of our enemies' lives, taken their land back, and won this war back in the 60s, there would have been very little loss of life on either side for over forty years.

          On the flip side, the Palestinians have exactly zero chance of ever "pushing the Jews into the sea". The only thing they can hope for by continuing this strategy of attacking and hiding behind civilians is to kill one Israeli for every hundred or so Palestinians killed. There is no up side to their fighting. None. Their cause does not even have any merit. When you are conquered, you no longer have a claim to the land you lost. They lost that land before the first Jew ever returned and need to wise up to the fact that it. Is. Not. Their. Land. And never again will be.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @05:10PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @05:10PM (#76000)

            None of the above can be said of the Palestinians.

            There is no "the Palestinians" just like there is no "the Jews". By using such a term in this context, you're already guilty of hate speech. It's not "the Palestinians" who shoot rockets, it's the Hamas (and a few independent splinter groups).

            When you are conquered, you no longer have a claim to the land you lost.

            That's a very interesting interpretation ... so I guess back then the Iraq had a right to Kuwait because they conquered it, and thus the U.S. intervention on it was wrong?

            • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday July 31 2014, @05:21PM

              by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Thursday July 31 2014, @05:21PM (#76007) Homepage Journal

              Hate speech? Get a life, over the top PC troll. Generalizations are not hate speech. I didn't call them the goat-fucking, baby-killing, motherless Palestinians, just plain old Palestinians.

              They conquered Kuwait, we conquered it back. I see no issue since we were able. Now if we'd tried without hope of success for decade upon decade? That would have been foolish and wasteful.

              --
              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
              • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @05:30PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @05:30PM (#76011)

                I didn't call them the goat-fucking, baby-killing, motherless Palestinians, just plain old Palestinians.

                You called them, collectively, aggressors.

                I see no issue since we were able.

                I see, you think might makes right. Well, I think most people already have reached a higher level of civilization ...

                • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday July 31 2014, @05:50PM

                  by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Thursday July 31 2014, @05:50PM (#76022) Homepage Journal

                  You called them, collectively, aggressors.

                  And, collectively, they are. Their society has continually spawned Destroy Israel groups over the decades and made no real effort to do anything about them. That is at the very least tacit approval of their goals but I'd go as far as to say it's affirmative support by cowards. It's damned sure more support than the US had within its own borders during the Iraq War and you lot have no trouble blaming an entire nation for that.

                  I see, you think might makes right. Well, I think most people already have reached a higher level of civilization ...

                  I think might makes fact. Right or wrong has nothing to do with it. As for civilization? Your ability to be civilized was and is continually paid for by the blood of those you consider barbarians. Shitting on them is suicidal.

                  --
                  My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                  • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @06:03PM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @06:03PM (#76026)

                    > And, collectively, they are. Their society has continually spawned Destroy Israel groups over the decades

                    You put a society under siege for decades, literally walling them in, and then you blame them for becoming crazy fucking angry about it as if any other tribe of people would behave any differently.

                    • (Score: 1, Troll) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday July 31 2014, @06:27PM

                      by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Thursday July 31 2014, @06:27PM (#76034) Homepage Journal

                      They're not walled in and they're no longer a nation. They need to disperse among the nations that will have them and GTF over it unless/until they can do something about it. Something besides make a bloody nuisance of themselves and get a hell of a lot of people, mostly their own, killed. If they had any realistic chance of making a fight of it, that would be another matter and another discussion entirely.

                      --
                      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @06:41PM

                        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @06:41PM (#76045)

                        > They're not walled in

                        That is an incredibly revealing level of self-deception.

                        > They need to disperse among the nations that will have them and GTF over it

                        Self-deportation it is!

                        • (Score: 2, Troll) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday July 31 2014, @06:54PM

                          by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Thursday July 31 2014, @06:54PM (#76053) Homepage Journal
                          Cry me a river. They were conquered. They could have either stayed and lived peacefully or left. They chose to see hundreds of thousands of their people die instead simply because their religion and their leaders tell them to hate Jews. They have nobody to blame but themselves.
                          --
                          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @07:11PM

                            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @07:11PM (#76059)

                            > Cry me a river. They were conquered.

                            Holy shit, you really took the wrong lesson from what happened to the cherokee.
                            Is there such a thing as a self-hating indian?

                            • (Score: 3, Interesting) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday July 31 2014, @07:26PM

                              by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Thursday July 31 2014, @07:26PM (#76064) Homepage Journal

                              Yes, they're the ones who whine about the Atlanta Braves and Washington Redskins.

                              Me, I am Cherokee and you don't see me going around trying to kill American civilians. We got the fuck over it, integrated ourselves to the new nation, and got on with our collective lives. Was what was done to us right? Hell no. But it was fact and nothing we can do will change it. There is bravery and then there is lunacy.

                              --
                              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                              • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @07:39PM

                                by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @07:39PM (#76070)

                                > Was what was done to us right? Hell no.
                                > But it was fact and nothing we can do will change it.

                                Man you are supremely damaged. But, now I understand why you are an asshole. Just like all those ultra gay-haters who are actually secretly gay. You can't change your own circumstances so you've internalized it as a coping mechanism. This has nothing to do with Palestine and everything to do with your internal conflict. It may be too late for you, but Palestine is far from a done deal. Stop projecting your issues on them.

                                • (Score: 3, Interesting) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday July 31 2014, @07:45PM

                                  by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Thursday July 31 2014, @07:45PM (#76073) Homepage Journal

                                  I don't hate myself or my people. I also don't hate people who never met an ancestor who did anything to my people. I'm not about the hate. You, me bucko, are the one with a belly full of hate if you're calling for continued bloodshed for a hopeless cause.

                                  --
                                  My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                                  • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @08:17PM

                                    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @08:17PM (#76086)

                                    > I don't hate myself or my people.
                                    > I also don't hate people who never met an ancestor who did anything to my people.

                                    And that's what the gay haters all say too, "Hate the sin, love the sinner."
                                    Go ahead and retreat into specifics, no combative AC is going to convince you into introspection
                                    But to anyone who has been reading along, wondering at your over-the-top vitriol, your illogic and your cold-hearted denialism, it is clear as a bell.

                                    > You, me bucko, are the one with a belly full of hate if you're calling for continued bloodshed for a hopeless cause.

                                    You've equated the experience of your ancestors from hundreds of years ago to what is happening now in Palestine. They aren't the same. One is in the past and is essentially a done deal. One is in the present and is far from over. Not just because it is in the present, but also because the world has changed. Acceptance of might makes right is a lot lower than it used to be. Ironically, the creation of the state of Israel is one the biggest examples of how the world has changed to be less accepting of that realpolitik. The problem was they should have carved out a piece of Germany.

                                    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday July 31 2014, @09:27PM

                                      by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Thursday July 31 2014, @09:27PM (#76117) Homepage Journal

                                      No AC is going to convince me of anything. I have the courage of my convictions and do not respect those without the same. And if you think there was any vitriol in anything I said, you are mistaken. I could give two shits about the middle east and everything I've posted should be read as an intellectual disagreement.

                                      You've equated the experience of your ancestors from hundreds of years ago to what is happening now in Palestine...

                                      Actually, you did that. I think there is no comparison. My ancestors were all but exterminated whereas the Palestinians would be living in peace if they would just stop attacking Israel. The Palestinians are the ones bent on genocide; Israel is largely content to simply be left the fuck alone and pursue any disagreements through diplomatic channels. So, no, there is no comparison. My people were wronged; the Palestinians are the ones doing the wronging.

                                      --
                                      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @09:48PM

                                        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @09:48PM (#76127)

                                        > I have the courage of my convictions and do not respect those without the same.

                                        You call it courage, I call it a lifetime's worth of cognitive dissonance. That is an enormous barrier to overcome. The "suck it up" blame the victim attitude permeates nearly every single post you make. It sounds like you've integrated that so deeply into your personality that acknowledging it would be a near breakdown level event. Just because you've had to suck it up doesn't mean other people should be expected to.

                                        > Actually, you did that. I think there is no comparison.

                                        Sure I brought it up because it was so glaringly obvious with that user id. Anyone who knows the slightest bit about cherokees knows the buzzard. When someone calling themselves "the mighty buzzard" is telling the palestinians to get the fuck out and go to some other country because they are the trouble-makers the comparison to the trail of tears is unavoidable. That you don't see it just proves my point about being in denial.

                                        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday July 31 2014, @10:18PM

                                          by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Thursday July 31 2014, @10:18PM (#76142) Homepage Journal

                                          You call it what you like because to do otherwise would mean admitting you are wrong and have been advocating in favor of continued hatred, bloodshed on both sides, and genocide. There is no other rational way to look at it. The Palestinians are victims of nobody but themselves for continuing a war they cannot hope to win whose stated goal is nothing less than the death of every Jew in Israel.

                                          We're through here, chuckles. You so badly want to disagree with daddy that you're advocating in favor of genocide. I can't decide if that is reprehensible or just sad. Either way, you're too much a caricature of Useful Idiots to continue a conversation with.

                                          --
                                          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                                          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @10:31PM

                                            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @10:31PM (#76148)

                                            > You call it what you like because to do otherwise would mean admitting you are wrong and have been advocating in favor of continued hatred

                                            Wait, are you talking to me there or to yourself? Because that sentence is so disconnected from reality that it could go either way.

                      • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Friday August 01 2014, @04:51PM

                        by Thexalon (636) on Friday August 01 2014, @04:51PM (#76440)

                        They need to disperse among the nations that will have them

                        There are two obvious and major problems with your proposal (notwithstanding the moral consequences of forcing something like 1.8 million people, many of them innocent civilians, to move at gunpoint):
                        - Egypt has sealed off the only other border from Gaza, at the behest of Israel and the US. So the residents of Gaza have absolutely no way to get to wherever they could disperse to.
                        - No country has expressed any kind of willingness to have them. Any country in the area that does so risks being turned into Lebanon, which has had basically no functioning government for years and has been repeatedly invaded and bombed by the IDF (What, you thought Hamas was going to disappear just because they had to move elsewhere?)

                        Also, you clearly need to learn more about what happened to your Cherokee ancestors: They actually assimilated pretty well into English southern society. Some started up successful cotton and tobacco plantations, and many converted to Christianity. When Andrew Jackson forced them out, he at least designated Oklahoma to be a place for them to live (although the people who were living in Oklahoma weren't so keen on the idea). Oh, and something like 30% of them died on the trip.

                        So, basically you're saying they're supposed to wander off to nowhere in particular, with 600,000 people dying in the process, by magically crossing a bunch of borders, and not even be annoyed that they had to leave. Nothing about this seems reasonable.

                        --
                        The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
            • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @06:15PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @06:15PM (#76032)

              >> When you are conquered, you no longer have a claim to the land you lost.
              >
              > That's a very interesting interpretation ...

              Obviously nazi plunder [wikipedia.org] should not be returned to the rightful owners either. Takers keepers!

          • (Score: 2) by SlimmPickens on Thursday July 31 2014, @08:54PM

            by SlimmPickens (1056) on Thursday July 31 2014, @08:54PM (#76102)

            LOL buzzard! I was inclined to look at your comments. You've got three insightful, no funny or interesting and a giant pile of troll and flamebait!

            • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday July 31 2014, @09:18PM

              by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Thursday July 31 2014, @09:18PM (#76111) Homepage Journal

              Yeah, every now and then I like to burn off some of my almost always max karma by getting a whole bunch of -1 Disagree mods. I absolutely never troll and if someone thinks something I said was flamebait then they need to take a good, hard look at why they're incapable of thinking someone disagreeing with them is anything but an attempt to piss people off.

              We've got an unbelievably intolerant crowd here over some subjects.

              --
              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
              • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Thursday July 31 2014, @10:44PM

                by bob_super (1357) on Thursday July 31 2014, @10:44PM (#76154)

                I'm pretty sure that many of your statements would make all but the staunchest West Bank settlers take a step back if you said them IRL.

                Unless you're taking a page from the recent "agree violently" post (where's that SN link? oh well, Poe's Law covers you anyway), you may want to consider that we wouldn't be still arguing 47 years after 1967 if your single-sided, AIPAC-approved posts were 100% correct.

                • (Score: 3, Interesting) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday July 31 2014, @11:02PM

                  by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Thursday July 31 2014, @11:02PM (#76158) Homepage Journal

                  Bob, I'm here thinking you're some sort of liberal type and mostly talk to liberals, because that very much screams echo-chamber belief to me. Truth of the matter is, most people in the US support Israel. Now I could very well be wrong about you but I am not wrong about where the nation stands. Check a poll. Any poll. You need exposure to intellectual diversity, my friend. Only hearing the same thing over and over does zero good for your critical thinking skills.

                  Why do I think like I do? Because I want to see an end to a bloody, pointless war. Because I realize that the only way to end a war for good is for one side to crush the other into submission. That is simply the nature of war. Both sides have to want to stop fighting permanently or it will not happen. Israel is already there but the only thing that will convince the Palestinians to join them is being shown they're fighting an overwhelming force they cannot hope to win against and exactly what it will cost them to continue trying.

                  Yes, it will cost lives in the short term but over even a decade a decisive victory by Israel would end up saving lives.

                  --
                  My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                  • (Score: 2) by evilviper on Thursday July 31 2014, @11:23PM

                    by evilviper (1760) on Thursday July 31 2014, @11:23PM (#76168) Homepage Journal

                    the only way to end a war for good is for one side to crush the other into submission

                    Which is why Germany was so peaceful and docile after the end of The Great War...

                    --
                    Hydrogen cyanide is a delicious and necessary part of the human diet.
                    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday July 31 2014, @11:31PM

                      by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Thursday July 31 2014, @11:31PM (#76172) Homepage Journal

                      Exactly. Not a crushing enough defeat. Note how civil they've been since the mid-40s. Ditto Japan.

                      --
                      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                      • (Score: 2) by evilviper on Friday August 01 2014, @12:17AM

                        by evilviper (1760) on Friday August 01 2014, @12:17AM (#76186) Homepage Journal

                        Exactly. Not a crushing enough defeat.

                        Pure circular logic. Completely historically inaccurate.

                        --
                        Hydrogen cyanide is a delicious and necessary part of the human diet.
                        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 01 2014, @02:54AM

                          by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 01 2014, @02:54AM (#76221)

                          It is that kind of utter obliviousness that convinced me the guy is operating on cognitive dissonance. The lies he has to tell to rationalize his position are just so blatantly obvious that either he's trolling (which I am sure he isn't because everything he's said on soylent has been consistently and vigorously far right) or he's just totally disconnected from anything that could cause the slightest bit of self-doubt. Nobody gets that confident in their cruelty on their own, something traumatic happened to the guy and what we are seeing is his coping mechanism laid bare.

                  • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Thursday July 31 2014, @11:50PM

                    by bob_super (1357) on Thursday July 31 2014, @11:50PM (#76180)

                    It's interesting that you would qualify my statements of "echo-chamber belief" after you posted about telling the Palestinians that they can pack and just move to neighboring countries since they lost. I merely pointed out that your posts go a bit further than most feel comfortable with, considering the long documented history of forced populations displacements, and that little paper people signed in Switzerland all those decades ago.

                    There is evidence that the unquestioning support of the US population for Israel is starting to change, as the internet allows people to reach a more diverse view than the media previously presented. The majority support in the US is not under threat, but the rest of the world is very different. one of top articles in quite a few European papers today? "Gaza: US resupplies Israel mortars and tanks" (as part of a long-term weapons stock sharing agreement). Why do you think that's news? Not because the US is eing applauded for helping crush evil terrorists...

                    Crushing the other into submission has already happened. Why do you think Hamas exists? The simplified version for the fairly recent creation of Hamas, is that the PLO angered some of its constituents by collaborating too much with Israel, in return for no peace progress and more settlements. So the very compliant and subdued Abbas lost control. Not just of the extremists, but the people fairly (per international observers) elected a Hamas that seemed less corrupt. We all instantly thanked them for voting, by making Gaza the biggest prison in the world.

                    I would recommend that you avoid the word "liberal". It's just too often used as a shortcut by the US right to dismiss anyone that they believe to be further left than they are, which considering recent US politics is at least 90% of the world.

                    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday August 01 2014, @12:50AM

                      by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Friday August 01 2014, @12:50AM (#76195) Homepage Journal

                      That bit of paper from Switzerland that the Palestinians ignore every single time they attack civilians has no part in this war. If one side is violating it at will, the other holding to it is the height of idiocy. We, for example, most assuredly did not sign it because it was The Right Thing To Do, we signed it in the hopes that our own soldiers would be treated with respect in return for treating those of others with respect. Quid pro quo. Personally, I think that bit of paper has caused more atrocities than it will ever prevent by prolonging wars with adversaries who pay it no heed whatsoever.

                      As for popular opinion, I expect Never Again will eventually become Here We Go Again, because as you said, people are bloody stupid. But this is not yet that time. As for what Europe thinks? What's a polite way of saying "fuck them and the horse they rode in on"? Europe has been at peace for far too long and have become cowards. They think the world will act civilized if they simply want it to badly enough.

                      That Hamas exists is obvious proof that they were not brought to submission. Witness the lack of submission in the people with every rocket and every bomb vest. The people are the ones whose will to fight must be crushed or this will absolutely never end.

                      I probably should avoid that word. It doesn't mean what the people claiming it embody. Historically, liberals have been about liberty in all aspects of life. Now they are for oppression of anything that does not meet their vision of how the world should be. I'll simply call them The Left then. The rest of the world I could care less about. The only opinion that matters is the one that I hold about actions taken in my name. When others have to bear the responsibility for my actions, then and only then can they have a say in my opinions.

                      --
                      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                      • (Score: 2) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Friday August 01 2014, @10:56AM

                        by GreatAuntAnesthesia (3275) on Friday August 01 2014, @10:56AM (#76321) Journal

                        > Europe has been at peace for far too long and have become cowards.

                        Shit, sorry about that MB. I'll go shoot some Portuguese immediately, will that help satisfy your bloodlust?

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 01 2014, @12:32AM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 01 2014, @12:32AM (#76192)

                    > the only thing that will convince the Palestinians to join them is being shown they're fighting an
                    > overwhelming force they cannot hope to win against and exactly what it will cost them to continue trying.

                    At least you are consistent. Referring to yourself as "daddy" and then spouting paternalisms like that which have no basis in reality. Humans as a group simply do not roll over. People will fight to the death and their children will too in order to avenge their parents. Your belief that pacification works is pure fantasy.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @10:15PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @10:15PM (#76140)

              > LOL buzzard! I was inclined to look at your comments. You've got three insightful,
              > no funny or interesting and a giant pile of troll and flamebait!

              "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
              Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely..."

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @06:12PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @06:12PM (#76029)

          > One reaction to that by some American Jews is to switch their contributions to other organizations like J-Street.

          That's because they are just self-hating jews. [wikipedia.org]

      • (Score: 2) by GlennC on Thursday July 31 2014, @04:37PM

        by GlennC (3656) on Thursday July 31 2014, @04:37PM (#75981)

        And some of us Jews aren't big fans of Israel either.

        --
        Sorry folks...the world is bigger and more varied than you want it to be. Deal with it.
        • (Score: 2) by Hawkwind on Thursday July 31 2014, @11:18PM

          by Hawkwind (3531) on Thursday July 31 2014, @11:18PM (#76165)

          And related to that, some Israeli-Jews aren't big fans of the dominant Jewish culture in Israel.

          Sigh, I've been lucky enough to know a fair number of people from the area (both Jewish and Muslim). This current mess just stinks.

  • (Score: 5, Informative) by RobotMonster on Thursday July 31 2014, @12:27PM

    by RobotMonster (130) on Thursday July 31 2014, @12:27PM (#75876) Journal

    Annoying that neither the article nor the summary provide a link to the actual document!
    You can get it here [stopdebezetting.com]. It's even in english.

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by evilviper on Thursday July 31 2014, @12:54PM

    by evilviper (1760) on Thursday July 31 2014, @12:54PM (#75886) Homepage Journal

    This is the kind of thing that happens inside any political organization. Republicans, Democrats, and Fox News anchors get their talking-points on a daily basis, replete with well-researched tips on how to best argue for things you don't believe, and wiggle out of trouble when confronted.

    Everything listed is downright obvious. Only thing new is Israel is getting a bit better at it. It doesn't seem to be enough, though, as I've seen a greater willingness to express views harshly critical of Israel in the past few years, even labeling their policies "apartheid".

    The heavy-handed tactics of bombing everything at the slightest justification, isn't going to go over well, no matter what. And I don't see the US public and media's views on Israel possibly improving, until Netanyahu leaves.

    --
    Hydrogen cyanide is a delicious and necessary part of the human diet.
    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @02:16PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @02:16PM (#75918)

      Besides all the suggestions, it helps that half of Israelis are US emigrants. Americans don't want to listen to Arabic-accented English, but they will identify with a pale-faced guy in a suit speaking perfect American English.

      For the non-Americans, some other things in this mix are a substantial population of Jews in states that are important to win in national elections, and a belief with some Christians that Jewish control of Jerusalem is a prerequisite for the second coming of Jesus.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @02:57PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @02:57PM (#75935)

        And from the document: "Religious fundamentalists are Israel’s “Amen Choir†and they make up approximately one-fourth of the American public and Israel’s strongest friends in the world."

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @04:13PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @04:13PM (#75973)

          Next time, stick to writing in English! ’s “, my arse.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @06:56PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @06:56PM (#76055)

            Yeah, fuck SN's Unicode support.

    • (Score: 4, Informative) by Thexalon on Thursday July 31 2014, @03:38PM

      by Thexalon (636) on Thursday July 31 2014, @03:38PM (#75957)

      And I don't see the US public and media's views on Israel possibly improving, until Netanyahu leaves.

      It sure seems to me like they don't care one bit about what the US public thinks. Congresscritters stand to lose so much campaign money if they so much as think about cutting off aid to Israel that as far as they're concerned John Kerry can be completely ignored. And they're doing just that.

      The other thing that doesn't help US public opinion towards the current policies of Israel are having cabinet members like Avigdor Lieberman as well as Netanyahu publicly expressing the idea that they don't believe the people in Gaza or what's left of the West Bank have a right to exist. Those kind of sentiments (which, according to Jewish friends of mine who have been there, isn't uncommon to hear in private conversations in Israel) destroyed the moral high ground Israel had back when it was Israel staying within the 1967 borders and getting hit by suicide bombs.

      --
      The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @07:44PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @07:44PM (#76072)

      > And I don't see the US public and media's views on Israel possibly improving, until Netanyahu leaves.

      The demographics of Americans that support Israel are surprisingly confounding. [vox.com] The more educated, especially on the specifics, the less sympathy for the oppressed.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @03:14PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @03:14PM (#75943)

    A few 100,000 Iraqi civilians dead vs 0 US civilians.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @03:31PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @03:31PM (#75953)

      What, you're not going to count the civilian contractors and diplomats?

      • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Thursday July 31 2014, @10:50PM

        by bob_super (1357) on Thursday July 31 2014, @10:50PM (#76155)

        Nah. Civilians scored in war zones abroad are not double points.
        In Gaza, it's more like shooting fish in a barrel than soccer anyway.

  • (Score: 0) by Kurses on Thursday July 31 2014, @05:06PM

    by Kurses (2545) on Thursday July 31 2014, @05:06PM (#75998)

    The part I hate about it most of it is the whining Hamas seems to be doing. If you're going to fire rockets at a clearly overpowering force, whether you feel it is justified or not, by all means do so. But don't start complaining when your target comes in to spank you into submission. What did they think was going to happen?

    I can trace back who does or does not own the land back to some arbitrary point in time that favors either side, but there comes a point where you've switched from viva la resistance to having gone full retard.

    • (Score: 2) by PinkyGigglebrain on Thursday July 31 2014, @05:57PM

      by PinkyGigglebrain (4458) on Thursday July 31 2014, @05:57PM (#76024)

      I think the whole Middle East has the knob stuck at 11

      Though the rest of the world has it pretty close to max too.

      I fear things are going to get a lot worse before there is any lasting improvement.

      Times like this I always remember a scene in Babylon 5.

      When the Centauri Emperor was dying and had just heard that war between his Empire and another started he asked Ambassador Kosh "How will it end?" Kosh replied "In fire."

      --
      "Beware those who would deny you Knowledge, For in their hearts they dream themselves your Master."
    • (Score: 2) by isostatic on Friday August 01 2014, @11:49AM

      by isostatic (365) on Friday August 01 2014, @11:49AM (#76332) Journal

      I haven't seen Hamas whining. I've seen the UN complaining that they were targetted and killed by american backed invaders, I've seen western news organisations show the horrors of war

      Gaza: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=18b_1405142226&selected_view_mode=desktop [liveleak.com]
      Tel Aviv: http://www.haaretz.com/news/features/.premium-1.604075 [haaretz.com]

      But I haven't seen much from Hamas at all, which is unsurprising as a bunch of thick cowards.

  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Freeman on Thursday July 31 2014, @06:32PM

    by Freeman (732) on Thursday July 31 2014, @06:32PM (#76037) Journal

    I hate to consider what the USA would do, if we were in Israel's shoes. The last time we were officially at war with someone who provoked us, we Nuked 2 cities, because it was easier. Israel has been fighting with it's neighbors more or less forever and they haven't resorted to mass killings of civilians. So long as there is a Jihad against Israel, the war will never stop.

    --
    Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @08:16PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @08:16PM (#76084)

      Israel has been fighting with it's neighbors more or less forever and they haven't resorted to mass killings of civilians.

      You mean Israel has been fighting with the people they are driving from their homes since Israel was created in '47? As for 'mass killings of civilians' what do you think they have been doing? The US gives them precision instruments of war and they decide to destroy entire city blocks to take out a single person firing soviet era rockets that have no chance to make it beyond Palestine's borders.

      Think of it this way, if you pushed a toddler down, then the toddler got back up and hit you in your shins, that does not give you the right to burn down the toddler's house with all of its family members inside.

      I hate to consider what the USA would do, if we were in Israel's shoes. The last time we were officially at war with someone who provoked us, we Nuked 2 cities, because it was easier.

      That is a pathetic oversimplification of the largest armed conflict in all of history. It also got three points wrong in one sentence.

  • (Score: 1) by Jiro on Thursday July 31 2014, @07:42PM

    by Jiro (3176) on Thursday July 31 2014, @07:42PM (#76071)

    Not explaining your actions and letting enemy propaganda go unquestioned really isn't a very successful course of action.

  • (Score: 2) by isostatic on Thursday July 31 2014, @08:19PM

    by isostatic (365) on Thursday July 31 2014, @08:19PM (#76087) Journal

    In Star Trek, the Enterprise encountered a ship threatening them with lasers

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4JUxQe4P4g [youtube.com]

    That's basically the position between Hamas and Israel. Israel has an Iron Dome, which offers extremely good defence against the rockets.

    In Star Trek, the Enterprise's response to being threatened by practically ineffectual weapons was not to blockade and bomb their homeworld.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @09:21PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @09:21PM (#76113)

      Israel has an Iron Dome, which offers extremely good defence against the rockets.

      Are you sure about that? I've looked and seen no evidence that Iron Dome works. None of the youtube videos are conclusive to my inexpert eye, and you can't really take Israel's word for it. OTOH, I'm also unconvinced by Postol's criticism, which seems to be based on many unjustified assumptions.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @10:09PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 31 2014, @10:09PM (#76135)

        Does it really matter? Hamas's rockets are so primitive that if they are just falling apart or if they are being knocked apart the end result is the same.

        But, if things continue to escalate and Hamas starts getting real hardware instead of the rickety crap they build by hand in underground caves it might start to matter. I wouldn't be surprised if the current conflict is creating exactly the kind of sympathy that will get them serious hardware smuggled in. Want to bet it turns out to be american-made systems that were sold to arab states? Maybe some stuff that ISIS captured?

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 01 2014, @03:11AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 01 2014, @03:11AM (#76226)

    i am the ac who submitted this story.

    i was expecting some forthright debate.

    i was not expecting comments which would make satan smile.

    i never did have much hope for humanity.

    i have even less now.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 01 2014, @04:48AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 01 2014, @04:48AM (#76247)

      Uh no, I am the ac who submitted this story.

      And I was expecting exactly these sorts of comments.

      The Israel Palestine conflict is a Rorschach test, what people have to say about it is a revelation of their own hearts and we all have some amount of blackness there. Just some have a darker heart than others.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 01 2014, @07:26AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 01 2014, @07:26AM (#76278)

        bizarre.

        in that case there must have been two submissions of the same story both of whom used ... in the second paragraph.