Given the recent high-profile suicide of Robin Williams, perhaps this would be a good time to discuss this difficult subject in this forum. With that in mind, I submit for your review the following op-ed from the New York Times where the author discusses her own struggles with depression and bipolar disorder. The article is an attempt to describe just how devastating deep depression is to those who have never experienced it. But I bet there are many here who have experienced it and several who experience it on a regular basis who will have no difficulty understanding her.
As someone who has struggled with chronic depression and anxiety attacks throughout his life (and is not afraid to speak about it) and has managed to survive somehow one suicide attempt, this article struck home, especially after reading the suicide note left by Ralph Barton, the once well-known cartoonist, linked to in the op-ed.
There seems to be a close correlation between brilliant and talented people and mental illness that often leads to depression, alcoholism, drug abuse, unsuccessful marriages and relationships, and, often, suicide. Given the average IQ of those who patronize this fine forum is probably up near the genius range, I suspect this op-ed will resonate with many others here.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 17 2014, @03:53PM
I'll keep not suiciding myself, thank you. I have got too many bottles of wine in my cellar to die.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Nerdfest on Sunday August 17 2014, @04:32PM
I don't think this is a troll, it's little things like this that keep you going sometimes. I was hit pretty hard with Robin William's death. Much harder than I should be considering I'd never met the man, but he was successful and was a true genius (in at least his field). For those of us with depression problems, seeing someone like him kill himself really hits home about how seriously it should be taken.
(Score: 0, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 17 2014, @05:41PM
Ethanol?
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 17 2014, @06:46PM
Congratulations on having such a well stocked wine cellar! People are modding you down as Flamebait, as to your intent I have no idea. However if one takes you at your word then your getting to live your journey through life singing/living a wine version of the time honored tradition of singing "99 bottles of beer on the wall" during a long and mostly uneventfully boring road trip. If it keeps you moving it keeps you moving. Its when people stop grasping at straws to give themselves reasons to live that the journey ends by their own hand, is it not?
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 17 2014, @07:54PM
20% of my immediate family at this time are dead by their own hand. Half of the people that are left have some serious problems. It is somewhat expected that I will be next to kill myself. Severe chronic depression that just happens is my life. Thoughts like this one:
is the sort of clever, partially desperate dark humor that is really great. Normal people or those that have not been sufficiently crushed do not appreciate the value, even if it comes from someone that intends harm.
(Score: 3, Informative) by SlimmPickens on Sunday August 17 2014, @09:15PM
Thanks for this. My best freind has severe depression and I find it very difficult to understand. Kind of like that judge talking about porn, I don't know what depression is, but I know I don't have it. It's difficult for me because my freind and I think so alike, he's the only person that never needs my (often very dry) jokes explained, and yet he has a serious illness and I basically always feel good, even when stressed.
There's certain things I know about it. I know to some extent it has to do with what I've come to think of as "unhealthy thoughts". I never understood that until one of the triggers for my freind to come out of depression was that he had divorce papers served to his wife. I know that there's a couple of people he'll always open the door for, and that he likes us to be there even though he finds it irritating, but that doesn't extend to other peolpe he's close to like his sisters or parents.
He recently had an eight week depression (I think it's considered very serious after two) and actually rang me up to say goodbye. He later told me he was indeed serious about it. I spent at least three hours trying to talk him thourgh it. At one point he begged me not to ring his parents (who's house he was at, hadn't been to work for six weeks) and then turned his off his phone. I figured he'd need at least ten minutes to psyche himself up. Sitting there redialling trying maintain the restraint not call his father was by far the most difficult ten minues of my life.
I can not descibe the feeling of joy I had when the phone rang again.
(Score: 1) by r3dakted on Sunday August 17 2014, @11:50PM
Whoever keeps modding the parent down as flamebait: I don't think that you understand depression, in particular the black humour that can emerge from having to fight it for far too long.
Having lived with depression for too many years to count, I personally find the comment to be rather amusing. YMMV.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Common Joe on Sunday August 17 2014, @04:29PM
It's sad the first comment on here was crap, but I'll put something better on here. We are certainly not alone. I know it's partly about Robin Williams, but I also found this article [cracked.com] at Cracked. I found it somewhat uplifting, but it's best quality is that it describes this kind of suicidal depression to those who don't understand. It did a fantastic job of that.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Sunday August 17 2014, @11:35PM
Speaking about competence, a while ago I found a story on The New Yorker [newyorker.com] on a Japanese Budhist monk that dedicated his life to suicidal people (cf story "Japan's suicide rate is nearly twice that of the United States. From 1998 until 2011, there were more than thirty thousand suicides each year - one nearly every fifteen minutes").
Even if the story is quite long, it does worth reading in full, please do so. It does provide an insight on what a competent help requires and what are the risks of offering this help (don't expect rewards in helping others. While they may come, doing it for the purpose of deriving a reward - even if only gratifying your vanity - will multiply the risks)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 18 2014, @03:14PM
I've got it all.
I've got it all.
I've got nothing.
Because nothing feels good anymore.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 17 2014, @04:31PM
We so called geniuses should instead of meet each other at Google+, go to conferences and hackfests and talk face to face more often. Like the beer event the day before FOSDEM: more of it. Event sponsors can that way get a lot of feel-good about their brand by sponsoring this kind of events.
(Score: 5, Informative) by CRCulver on Sunday August 17 2014, @04:36PM
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 17 2014, @04:44PM
Yes, I agree that for some people it will not suffice to just meet peers in a bar or pub. I think in general, though, that it's not bad. I also think that one should not only meet people in the context of work (coding). A very nice hobby where you meet a lot of special people: diving. Just be careful when going deeper than 12-15 meters and listen to the advise of your dive club's dive instructor and to your dive computer :)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 18 2014, @07:42AM
About 13 years ago, I ran into a friend of mine I hadn't seen for years.
He shook my hand and told me how good it was to see me again, and then he said: goodbye.
At the time, I didn't think much of it, because people say that when you part ways. He even took my phone number.
Two days later, he was dead.
He had apparently been on suicide watch in a hospital for a while. One day, he buzzed the nurse and told her that he couldn't sleep, so she gave him bottle of sleeping pills which, obviously, he never returned. When he was released from the hospital he moved into a small flat and then swallowed the contents of the bottle.
I'll bet he thought nobody would turn up to his funeral. I hope I'm wrong about that, but it wouldn't surprise me. There was standing room only. In his short time with us, about 26 years, he had a lasting impact. I still think about him a lot.
I'll never know why he killed himself, and I do wish I'd realised what he was saying at the time, but at the funeral the man running it pointed out to us all that as much as we wish that we all need to know that it was his choice and even if we had known it's doubtful we could ever have talked him out of it. He was in a lot of pain (emotionally) and that was the only way he could imagine to stop it.
I still miss you, Quinn.
Now, on to the next part of the story.
I may not know why he killed himself, but I know that I've nearly done it many times. For many years, I've had emotional problems - possibly borderline bipolar at times. I've cried myself to sleep so many times, wondering what was wrong with me.
I was lonely, often isolated. I'd drive away friends, never met a female that was interested in me.
Over time, I finally met a few women who were interested, some of my friends were willing to put up with my issues, and things settled down.
After a few years, and a few ex-s, I had the fortune that so many of us don't get: I learned what was wrong with me.
I have a form of brain damage that means I can't read people, I have difficulty with new or unexpected situations, and I certainly have trouble controlling my emotions. This has been a problem with me for all of my life, although the symptoms certainly match brain damage resulting from head trauma. A few years after discovering that, I've isolated the cause with a high probability - parental abuse.
My father is an alcoholic and was a fighter, and my mother is an abusive self-centered bitch. She spent her whole life telling us that she was protecting us from him, but in reality she was setting him up so the police would arrest him.
She attacked him and - when he wouldn't hit her - she beat herself up, then had him charged for it. Many times.
My brother and I were hit with electrical cables, he was pinned down and suffocated until he ate undercooked food. She's tried to stab me and then started screaming that I was going to beat her up so she would have witnesses to my "unchecked aggression," or she'd take the pair of us out in public and then set us up so she could humiliate us.
She has admitted, with pride, that she stamped on my head when I was a toddler. That is the root of my problem.
As I've learned more about it, I've made many life-changing discoveries. For instance, being unable to read people means that I'm operating with just a small fraction of the information that anybody else has but I'm judged to be an aggressive trouble-maker by everyone around me when I get frustrated because I don't know what's going on. I can't follow instructions, so I was labelled as lazy by teachers.
Imagine, your whole life you're operating as best you can but no matter what you do you can't work out why you're being picked on by everyone, only to go home to a mother who - at any moment - might grab an electrical cable and whip the hell out of you.
To make clear just how badly I read people, one of my friends later on pointed out that most of the females around me were throwing themselves at me, and I just didn't get it. I still don't, and I never will.
For years, I've been working my way through this - I'm around 40 now, and it still dominates my life. It always will.
Recently, I've noticed a disturbingly dark trend in my thoughts. You see, I've got a very, very high IQ. I'm not sure what it is because I've never been tested appropriately to my disability, but I've recently been told that I will never achieve even a small fraction of my potential.
I'll never hold a full time job, and I'll never be able to use my degree. Even something as menial as office work is out, or shelf stacking, professional driver (truck or taxi). Bouncer, police officer, the lot. Just about anything you can come up with, I can't do.
As a kid, I wanted to be an aerospace engineer first and foremost, but physicist or mathematician would have done nicely. I'll never achieve any of these things.
I will never be able to achieve any of my dreams. Not one. I can't learn to read music with any proficiency, or even a map. I can't follow directions, I can get lost five blocks from my house if I don't know the area. I can't follow building plans. I wanted to write a video game, and so educated myself appropriately, but I'll never be able to.
Right now, you're most likely thinking that I'm just letting my disability get in the way, but I'm not. I've been trying to do these things my whole life, I've only found out about my disability recently. I won't go into specifics, but I've got a few games designed (or partially designed), but this is the nature of it all - I can't get beyond a certain point because of the limitations caused by my brain damage.
But this is the cause of my dark thoughts. The essence of them is that I wonder what's the point of living if I'm not able to do anything that I dreamed of?
And the truth is that I never will be able to, no more than will alone can help someone with spinabifida run a marathon.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Nerdfest on Sunday August 17 2014, @04:42PM
Not a bad idea, but social anxiety makes it difficult for many (me), and impossible for some. Having real friends helps though, not just people you interact with online. That said, I'm going to try to make it to Splash this year if anyone is going. I'd probably be up for meeting people.
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 17 2014, @05:17PM
The implication that people you interact with online can't be real friends is insulting.
(Score: 2) by Nerdfest on Sunday August 17 2014, @05:37PM
I didn't say that one precluded the other, just that it's important to have friends. Online friends are still friends, but there's a certain level of trust and familiarity that I would consider to define one as a friend.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Sunday August 17 2014, @10:57PM
After reading this, I would have second thoughts in calling a person like you a real friend, even in real life.
(thinking more about what's the impact on yourself than what's the impact on other, aren't you?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by Nerdfest on Monday August 18 2014, @02:09AM
Not necessarily; that's just one of the consequences of on-line communication. You lose the subtlety. The consequence of which is that it's hard to tell who is actually a friend. Of course, sociopathic people can fool you the same way in 'real life'.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Appalbarry on Sunday August 17 2014, @05:12PM
(Cross posted from elsewhere, in response to an idiot who equated "Depression" with "Being unhappy.")
Good lord - you really do not know WHAT you're talking about.
Depression is a complex thing, both in terms of symptoms and causes, and it is simplistic to the point of insult to describe it as "about unhappiness."
Dealing with depression takes a lot of things, and each person's clinical tools are different. Sometimes anti-depressants are the best choice, sometimes talk therapy, sometimes combinations of the two.
Similarity the root causes are not just about "brain chemistry." There are any number of conditions and life experiences that contribute to depression, and none are so simple as you believe.
Honestly the biggest challenge to anyone dealing with depression (REAL clinical depression, not the "Oh, I chipped a nail and I'm sooo depressed" idea that so many people have about it) is that seemingly everyone who hasn't suffered with the condition feels like they're an expert, and jumps right in with simple minded analysis and even simpler-minded solutions.
QUOTE: "OH, I used to have depression, but one day I just decided that I wouldn't be like that, and now I'm really happy."
Incredible nonsense, and of no value to anyone who really is dealing with depression.
In all seriousness, If you have never actually been diagnosed with clinical depression you really should shut up and resist offering opinions. Trust me, you come off being offensive and foolish.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday August 17 2014, @06:00PM
You got a +1 Interesting from me because your points are valid and worth discussing even if you didn't apparently RTFA or even RTFSummary. Nothing in either made light of Major Depression or minimized its impact and difficulty of treatment.
To expound on one of your points though, depression is really poorly understood by those that don't suffer it or work with it regularly. Depression is not sadness. Depression is hopelessness.
My theory on why intelligent people suffer from MD more often is that we're capable of seeing things more clearly and analytically; and the truth is that life is pointless and there is no hope that it will ever have a point. The smarter you are, the more thoroughly you can construct an argument against hope.
The flat, honest truth is that life only has the meaning you decide it does. And deciding that helping others, amassing capital, or whatever is meaning enough for you is extremely difficult when you can see all of that clearly.
Now add the fun bit where treating MD chemically is still in its infancy. There are pretty much zero tests that can be done to tell you which specific medicine will help you. It's quite possible to go through dozens of medications before you come across one that works for you, assuming you can stick out the side effects and fucking up of your brain long enough to find one at all.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3) by dcollins on Sunday August 17 2014, @11:37PM
"the truth is that life is pointless and there is no hope that it will ever have a point. The smarter you are, the more thoroughly you can construct an argument against hope."
Bingo. I don't expect to see truth everyday online, but there it is today.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Monday August 18 2014, @01:28AM
You fill it with your own points. If it got filled with other peoples point and they mismatch, you suffer.
(Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Monday August 18 2014, @05:38AM
"you fill it with your own points" is another way of saying that there is no external point. I totally agree that there is no purpose beyond that which we choose, but I think when people talk about the meaning of life, they are looking for some grand plan, god, whatever, and it just isn't there. So many times I've fervently wished I could believe in gods or fairies or santa -- it would give me an external purpose to strive toward. But I can't -- all I have is that which I give myself, and _that_, I know is ultimately pointless.
(Score: 2) by zsau on Monday August 18 2014, @01:50AM
If you're right then perhaps we need to have more intelligent psychologist to help people like you. But I tend to think it goes the other way around: depressed people are more likely to worry about the parts of life that look hopeless, in the same way that traumatised people think about their trauma. Then because the arguments in favor of hopelessness are so overwhelming, it makes the person look a lot more intelligent.
But then again, I'm feeling kinda hopeless this morning, so :/
[NB. I don't think I've ever had a major depression, but I've been suicidal and all this talk about suicide is making it sound more appealing. But on the other had I saw my uncle cry at the funeral for his son, my cousin, who was the same age as me less eight days.]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 18 2014, @10:06PM
How are you feeling today?
(Score: 2) by black6host on Monday August 18 2014, @08:46AM
And therein lie the reason so many suffer for so long. Psychiatrists might as well throw a dart at a dartboard and pick your meds that way. I've been on most all of them. The ones I haven't were too close to the ones I'd tried to make anyone think they might work. Fact is, none of them did. I was told that Electro Convulsive Therapy (ECT) was my last chance. And I was also told by my provider that my insurance had run out and I'd have to declare bankruptcy.
After spending every day wishing I weren't here, day after day, year after year I was desperate. And had made some serious attempts to end it and I can't figure out why they failed. So, I said OK. It helped. Quite a bit in fact but it cost me dearly. Lost my job, declared bankruptcy, etc....
They have ECT booster treatments you can take to keep up with symptoms. I didn't do so and regret it now. And now I've got doctors throwing darts again.
I find it very hard to explain to people just how debilitating major depression/bipolar disorder can be (The docs keep going back and forth on the diagnosis.) Basically the only ones who truly understand are those who themselves suffer from the same. I can't tell you how many times I've been told just to get over it. There's only one way I know that is 100% effective to do that. But suicide is not an option I care to take anymore for reasons I can't list. So I suffer. And many others do as well.
Some may not understand, but I'd bet there are some here who will.......
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Flyingmoose on Sunday August 17 2014, @06:24PM
I've been to psychiatrists over the years for anxiety, depression, etc. I've tried just about every antidepressant and narcotic in the book. But what ended up actually helping is the beta blocker that I was given after a cardiac illness. I can't believe that none of the psychiatrists ever though of it.
And don't even get me started on drug reaction testing. I am a 2D6 Poor Metabolizer and most doctors I've met don't even know what that means.
It seems that it's not that science hasn't advanced, it's that doctors are willfully ignorant of 20-year-old technology.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 17 2014, @06:45PM
> 2D6 Poor Metabolizer
I thought that was a robot from Star Wars, but then I'm clearly not one of "near geniuses" here.
(Score: 2) by mendax on Sunday August 17 2014, @09:31PM
I take a beta blocker (Atenolol) to help control my mild high blood pressure and I have long noticed a calming effect it has upon me, although I only recently became conscious of it. Ironically, it was my psychologist who first called this to my attention. He also regularly takes a beta blocker and, with the permission of his doctor, will take a double dose of it when he has to testify in court or do other things that cause anxiety. I started taking double doses of it, learned I could tolerate it, and have since started, with my doctor's permission, to take a quadruple dose of it regularly. It doesn't eliminate depression or anxiety but it helps to take the edge off it. The Celexa I take also helps with the depression and anxiety although, in the end, nothing really eliminates it. It's just something that has to be endured and lived with.
It's really quite a simple choice: Life, Death, or Los Angeles.
(Score: 2) by dry on Monday August 18 2014, @04:08AM
I doubt it is willful ignorance. There's only so much time in medical school and perhaps their priorities could be better (eg once read that only one day is spent on headaches) and then finding time to keep up with medical advances can't be easy. Sadly it seems most of the post-school educating is done by the pharmaceutical companies so it's also biased towards profitable drugs.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 17 2014, @06:31PM
I have first-hand experience with clinical, major depression. There's about as much similarity between major depression and feeling blue as there is between an orgasm and feeling happy. Until I experienced it, first hand, no one could have explained it to me.
Medications and therapy were necessary in my case. It was brought about by a traumatic loss. It was NOT something that I could just "shake off" or "get over". It took many months of hard work and persistence to get through. All the while feeling like doing *anything* was utterly and totally overwhelming. Felt like I had a 50lb sack of flour strapped to my back. It would constantly shift and throw me off balance, and any activity would cause it to absorb moisture and just make it even heavier. There was no joy or happiness. Anything and everything that every brought me happiness was darkened and dulled. I felt like I was a burden to everyone around me. Felt like the world would be a better place with me gone.
No happiness and not even a hope that things could/would get better.
I seriously contemplated suicide. It was *only* knowing how it would destroy those around me kept me from stepping over the edge.
Thankfully, a friend intervened and got me help. And, as skeptical and hopeless as I felt, I was able to accept the help, and worked long and hard to pull out of it. It was worth it.
And, as bad as I felt, I met others who had it worse than me.
Those are dark memories for me. Most of the time, now, I am okay, but there's a background 'noise' that still tends to pull me back into its maw. I have to actively seek out things that are rewarding and satisfying. I have continued to benefit from outside help. For whatever reason, I'm just 'wired' a bit different than most other people. Doesn't mean I'm bad or anything, just different, and at times just that thought can lead me back into a downward spiral.
I had to find what worked for me, and do it. Rest, exercise, and a good diet though not sufficient by themselves also helped.
I take comfort in knowing that by having made it through, I am uniquely able to connect with others who suffer with it; to give them hope through my first-hand experience. In a short while, they know I *know* what they are feeling; that I have been where they are, and through my own example, give them hope that they can get out of it, too. Just like others did for me.
I apologize for any incoherence... it is most difficult to look back into that time and a struggle to even bring these thoughts to mind.
But, if there is anyone out there who reads these words, and gets even a glimmer of hope they'll be well worth it.
Don't give up, no matter what. Hang on for just one more day, or hour, or even one more minute. Suicide is a permanent response to a temporary condition. You are NOT alone. You don't need to face this alone. People will help. Let them. I'm glad I did.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 18 2014, @08:00AM
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 17 2014, @07:08PM
http://www.metanoia.org/suicide/ [metanoia.org]
The content on this webpage can be a LIFESAVER!
I have nothing further to say in this post--the content at that webpage SPEAKS FOR ITSELF!
(Score: 2) by sjames on Sunday August 17 2014, @08:33PM
I am amazed how few professionals even consider sleep hygiene in mild to moderate depression. There are probably a lot of people on SSRIs right now who would be much better off just getting enough sleep.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Monday August 18 2014, @01:39AM
Psychiatric disorders like depression might wreck sleeping habits. So it might actually interact.
In case anyone mistakes people with an exam for professionals. Don't, some sciences hasn't acquired sufficient knowledge to even educate people in some subjects or is stuck in dogma. And some people might know but not apply what they been taught. Some with experience hasn't updated their knowledge.
Though, they may be useful. Just don't blanket assume it.
(Score: 1) by nyder on Sunday August 17 2014, @11:57PM
Look Robin Williams had depression, and yes, he commited suicide. But did he commit it because of the suicide? Not likely, he killed himself because he had Parkinson's.
Lots of us have depression, but have no desire to kill ourselves. But I will tell you now, if I got something like Parkinson's, I'd kill myself also before it got too bad. It's a messed up disease.
So saying depression caused Robins suicide isn't really the truth, is it?
(Score: 2) by mendax on Monday August 18 2014, @12:50AM
You probably have not had the kind of depression he or I have had. Depression tells lies to you. It makes you feel like you're utterly worthless and sucks any hope out of your life. It makes suicide much easier to contemplate because the sufferer doesn't see the alternative. Depression also creates a kind of amnesia that makes it difficult to remember the good things in life, or remember the things one can do to pop out of it such as writing gratitude lists, exercising, visiting a friend, going to a meeting if you're in AA or some other Twelve Step fellowship as he was, etc.
What is known is that he was deeply depressed and had been for some time. Furthermore, it's also known that he had bipolar disorder. It's also known that his career was not going well and that he was afraid of being able to continue working. Like many people with mental illness, what keeps them going forward is work and the ability to lose oneself in it. The Parkinson's disease might have been the last straw that put him over the edge, especially when he started seeing how the disease affected him.
There is something you may or may not understand; you just have to have the kind of depression I've endured most of my life. Like many people in his situation, Robin Williams had been killing himself slowly through much of his life through self-destructive behavior, bad relationships, alcohol, drugs, and perhaps other things we may never completely know about. Why? Because of depression. It killed him pure and simple.
It's really quite a simple choice: Life, Death, or Los Angeles.
(Score: 2) by Maow on Tuesday August 19 2014, @09:46AM
No amount of career success, financial independence, world-wide respect, talent, family, loved ones, access to medical treatment -- not one bit of it helps.
It does not get better.
That's what the message I got from his death, but some of us pretty much knew that anyway. Although perhaps there was a glimmer of hope that maybe having some loved ones and / or relief from financial stress (via career success, ideally) would bring alleviation.
Guess not.
No surprise, really.
Fuck everything, etc.