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posted by janrinok on Wednesday August 27 2014, @02:05AM   Printer-friendly
from the and-teachers-can-work-later... dept.

American teenagers, rejoice ! The American Academy of Pediatrics wants all US schools attended by children aged 10 to 18 to delay their opening times to 8.30 am or later. Currently, only 15 per cent start after this time.

The aim is to tackle widespread sleep deprivation by helping teenagers manage the shift in their body clocks that coincides with puberty. This turns them into "night owls" who favour going to bed and rising 2 hours later than when they were younger. Research has shown that this results in more car accidents, increased late arrivals at school as well as lower grades, and higher risks of depression, moodiness and obesity.

A poll published in 2006 ( http://sleepfoundation.org/sites/default/files/2006_summary_of_findings.pdf [PDF] ) by the US National Sleep Foundation found that 59 per cent of middle school students and 87 per cent of high school students were failing to get the recommended 8.5 to 9.5 hours sleep on school nights.

[Additional Research] http://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/11299/162769/1/Impact%20of%20Later%20Start%20Time%20Final%20Report.pdf [PDF]

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  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @02:12AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @02:12AM (#86010)

    The purpose of schools is to teach teens to OBEY. Sleep deprivation makes them more compliant.

    Remember, kids, if you don't learn to obey by the time you graduate, you're going straight to prison, where you belong!

  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday August 27 2014, @02:32AM

    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday August 27 2014, @02:32AM (#86023) Journal

    Blame piss poor parenting. Mom and Dad can set a reasonable curfew, and Mom and Dad can pull the plug on all the entertaining nonsense that keeps kids up late. Changing the school hours to accommodate those kids who want to roam the streets late at night simply makes no sense. The COPS certainly don't want hordes of teens wandering the streets after around 9:00 PM.

    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @02:37AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @02:37AM (#86024)

      Yeah, because whatever makes life easier for the COPS is best for society.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @02:45AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @02:45AM (#86031)

        Keeping the cops happy is better for society because grumpy cops are more likely to murder with impunity. You think you're safe on the sidewalk when a cop drives by? Think again! Cops love to drive on sidewalks, and if they kill a pedestrian, it's always the pedestrian's fault.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @01:52PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @01:52PM (#86228)

          So you are saying that we should be submissive to police?

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by compro01 on Wednesday August 27 2014, @02:40AM

      by compro01 (2515) on Wednesday August 27 2014, @02:40AM (#86026)

      Setting a curfew doesn't mean they're actually going to be getting to sleep rather than just lying in bed.

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Dachannien on Wednesday August 27 2014, @03:17AM

        by Dachannien (2494) on Wednesday August 27 2014, @03:17AM (#86041)

        Setting a curfew doesn't mean they're actually going to be getting to sleep rather than just lying in bed.

        This. I haven't been a teenager for about 20 years, but back when I was, it was pretty common that I would stay up until 4am reading a book in bed because I just couldn't get to sleep. I was probably worse off in that respect than most of my classmates, as I've continued to have sleep problems all my life, but if their natural clock is tuned that way, their schedules should be tuned to match it. Teenagers are old enough to walk/bus/drive themselves to school (as applicable) without adult supervision, so we should stop putting them on a schedule that's more convenient for their parents than it is for them.

        • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday August 27 2014, @03:47AM

          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday August 27 2014, @03:47AM (#86052) Journal

          This. I haven't been a teenager for about 20 years, but...

          Maybe it's time to do it again? (being a teenager, I mean).

          --
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
      • (Score: 3, Informative) by tftp on Wednesday August 27 2014, @03:18AM

        by tftp (806) on Wednesday August 27 2014, @03:18AM (#86042) Homepage

        Indeed. Per Wikipedia:

        Researchers have found that the genetic make-up of the circadian timing system underpins the difference between the early bird and the night owl.[5] Some night owls who have great difficulty adopting normal sleeping and waking times may have delayed sleep phase disorder. Light therapy may be helpful in shifting sleep rhythms for the night owl.[6]

        While it has been suggested that circadian rhythms may change over time, turning lark to owl (or vice versa),[7] evidence for familial patterns of early/late waking would seem to contradict this.[8]

        Or, rephrasing a well known wisdom, you can put the child to bed, but you cannot make him sleep. Not until his own clock tells him. And that clock is out of alignment, as the TFA points out.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday August 27 2014, @03:03PM

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday August 27 2014, @03:03PM (#86274) Journal

        That is a fair observation. And, in fact, one of my sons always had that problem - he can't just turn his lights out, and go to sleep. His mind continues whatever, and he can't just turn it off.

        But, I will argue that lying in bed is still more conducive to rest and/or sleep than being out in the living room, watching television, or banging away on the keyboard, or going down the road to visit his buddy. Sleeping or not, being stretched out on your own bed is generally restful. Having looked at the boy morning after morning, I believe that his state of mind in the morning proves my opinion. With curfew, his main frustration was an unreasonable father. Without curfew, he may have stayed up all night long rebuilding a motorcycle engine, or skateboarding, or just anything at all.

        • (Score: 2) by Vanderhoth on Wednesday August 27 2014, @03:40PM

          by Vanderhoth (61) on Wednesday August 27 2014, @03:40PM (#86304)

          I have to disagree. I was a night owl when I was a teen, but since my 20s I've been a morning person. That said, I still have nights where I've been working on a problem and just can't shut my brain off. Often lying in bed is *worse* for me than just staying up to finish what I was working on because:

          1) All I do is toss and turn in bed thinking of the problem
          2) I'm extremely tired the next day, which makes it hard to focus
          3) When I can't focus I stress out, which makes it hard to sleep

          It was pretty much the same when I was a teen. So just lying in bed, IMHO, can be worse than actually doing something "productive" to at least take my mind off what I was thinking about when I couldn't sleep. Sometimes just 10-15 minutes of TV or reading is enough to get me off whatever train my thoughts were on. Other times a problem just has to be solved before I can sleep. I'd definitely discourage video games, that's more of an amping up activity rather than a winding down.

          Although I don't like the idea of forcing people to go to bed if they're not ready, making allowances for them to sleep in so they *can* stay up later because they don't have to get up as early is just as bad. So I still don't think school should be based around teens sleeping habits. I, along with a lot of teens I knew, could easily sleep until 1:00-2:00 in the afternoon. If we moved starting time to 8:30 today, then tomorrow the optimal time will be 9:30, then it'll be 10:30 and so on. Eventually teens ill prepared to cope with the "real world" where their schedule is dictated by a boss who wants them up and at work for 7:00 AM.

          --
          "Now we know", "And knowing is half the battle". -G.I. Joooooe
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 28 2014, @05:09AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 28 2014, @05:09AM (#86608)

            Although I don't like the idea of forcing people to go to bed if they're not ready, making allowances for them to sleep in so they *can* stay up later because they don't have to get up as early is just as bad. So I still don't think school should be based around teens sleeping habits. I, along with a lot of teens I knew, could easily sleep until 1:00-2:00 in the afternoon. If we moved starting time to 8:30 today, then tomorrow the optimal time will be 9:30, then it'll be 10:30 and so on. Eventually teens ill prepared to cope with the "real world" where their schedule is dictated by a boss who wants them up and at work for 7:00 AM.

            Actually the research suggests night owls handle shift work better than early birds

            That's the trend, more shift work, less regular hours

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by gman003 on Wednesday August 27 2014, @03:12AM

      by gman003 (4155) on Wednesday August 27 2014, @03:12AM (#86039)

      What the fuck? Have you actually met any teens since you were a teenager?

      "Wandering the streets" isn't something teens do anymore, except maybe some poor ones with literally nothing better to do. The average teen is probably staying up late playing video games or watching TV or chatting on Facebook or watching porn or doing something that's actually interesting (my teenage years were spent staying up late programming and watching shitty anime). If they do go out, they're more likely to loiter in a parking lot than wander the streets, mainly BECAUSE of those trigger-happy cops you're so eager to please.

      The fundamental problem is that schools start to early. I just checked the schedule for a nearby high school - the first class starts at 7:20AM. Some of the earliest bus stops were at 6:10AM. Sunrise right now, btw, is 6:35AM.

      Can you honestly tell me that you would be ready to learn at 7AM? If your office changed from nine-to-five to seven-to-three, would you be able to do your job as effectively? I know I wouldn't. Even the military seems to agree with me - in Basic Training, the actual training starts at 0830, with the preceding time being PT, breakfast, and hygiene, aka things you can do with zero brainpower.

      If that's a fine schedule, why don't we operate by it in the business world? Why shouldn't the eight-hours-a-day start at eight? Because the human body isn't built for that - we're daylight creatures, not dusk/dawn or nocturnal. Our body thinks the time to be active is when the sun is bright and high in the sky - you can fight it, but you're going to pay some price for it. There are plenty of health studies that show increases in various ailments for night-shift people. It's not a stretch to imagine that affects early-birds as well.

      • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Darth Turbogeek on Wednesday August 27 2014, @04:51AM

        by Darth Turbogeek (1073) on Wednesday August 27 2014, @04:51AM (#86072)

        It worries me deeply that the definition of "something better to do" is Facebook, playing games and watching TV.

        What the hell happened to booting a footy around or playing cricket / soccer / basketball etc? That's what I associate with wandering the streets.

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by sjames on Wednesday August 27 2014, @01:55PM

          by sjames (2882) on Wednesday August 27 2014, @01:55PM (#86230) Journal

          Getting hassled by the cops.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by zafiro17 on Wednesday August 27 2014, @06:51AM

        by zafiro17 (234) on Wednesday August 27 2014, @06:51AM (#86104) Homepage

        I'm not a teenager, I'm an employer. And I can guarantee you this generation of teenagers will be totally unprepared for real life and the working world. Can't get up and be at work when we start business? You're fired. Take your stupid 'rights to be coddled' and go the hell home.

        Pathetic.

        --
        Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis - Jack Handey
        • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Wednesday August 27 2014, @06:57AM

          by aristarchus (2645) on Wednesday August 27 2014, @06:57AM (#86106) Journal

          So, no employees for you? Happy going out of business sale!

        • (Score: 2) by Common Joe on Wednesday August 27 2014, @10:17AM

          by Common Joe (33) <{common.joe.0101} {at} {gmail.com}> on Wednesday August 27 2014, @10:17AM (#86149) Journal

          Many teens may be totally unprepared for real life, but I doubt it's because we're telling them to be at school for 8:30. Indeed, many businesses start between 7:00 AM and 9:00 AM -- a time slot which includes that magic 8:30 suggestion that teenagers be at school.

          I can say this from personal experience: it was a bear to go to night class. I'm a morning person and I had no choice but to go to night class. (I was forced to go to language class by the German government if I wanted to stay with my wife here in Germany and I had to get through as quickly as possible for personal reasons. The only option we saw at the time was the night class.) I did not learn as much as I could have if I had gone during the day... or even better, in the morning. It was a loss not only for me, but for Germany as well.

          Sometimes we all have to suck it up. I did and I got through that class, but we don't have to coddle the kids to make society a better place. That's all gman003 was saying and I agree with him.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @05:28PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @05:28PM (#86367)

          I'm sure this generation of employers is the first to ever say that as well.

          (Hint, they're not.)

      • (Score: 2) by Magic Oddball on Wednesday August 27 2014, @08:11AM

        by Magic Oddball (3847) on Wednesday August 27 2014, @08:11AM (#86126) Journal

        The class taking place at 7:20am is almost certainly the *optional* extra space known as zero period, with normal required class then starting around 50 minutes later at 8:30am.

        That would also match the schedule that the high school a couple of blocks from my home has had since long before I was a student there in the 90s. It never seemed excessively early to me as a teen -- I went to bed at around 10:30pm on school nights with rarely any trouble falling asleep, then shifted to a bedtime closer to 11:30-11:45pm after that. I slept in until around 11am-12pm on weekends, and that seemed like enough.

        My friends and younger brother all followed a roughly similar schedule, FWIW, so I know I can't have been all that anomalous. The big difference compared to kids/teens now is that most of us couldn't easily use a computer or play video games after dinnertime, which made it easier for us to doze off, and there wasn't a hell of a lot on TV after midnight at the time.

        • (Score: 1) by pendorbound on Wednesday August 27 2014, @02:25PM

          by pendorbound (2688) on Wednesday August 27 2014, @02:25PM (#86250) Homepage

          It wasn’t zero period when I was in high school (1998). I got stuck taking Calculus at 7:30 AM. Let’s just say it wasn’t the best grade I ever got in a math class…

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @11:39AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @11:39AM (#86175)

        The fundamental problem is that schools start to early. I just checked the schedule for a nearby high school - the first class starts at 7:20AM. Some of the earliest bus stops were at 6:10AM. Sunrise right now, btw, is 6:35AM.

        The whole reason for school starting at 7:30 is to give parents time to get the kids off to school before they have to get themselves off to work. This gets school buses off the streets before the worst of rush hour, and it provides parental supervision for actually showing up for class. After-school programs keep the kids occupied and supervised until the parents return from work. The world does not now, and never will, revolve around your circadian rhythm. If it did, there would be no such thing as 3rd shift.

        Can you even imagine how disruptive it would be to have the whole crowd of 9-to-5ers stuck at home until 8:30 to see Johnny and Jane off to class? Buses stopping traffic on major roads while the little tykes cross the street?

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @05:30PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @05:30PM (#86369)

          Definitely less disruptive than the hundreds of extra vehicle-hours on the road per day from everyone driving to school, then away from school, then to work.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 28 2014, @04:06PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 28 2014, @04:06PM (#86779)

          1. Teens are old enough to be trusted with the keys to the house. So there is no reason for parents stay until they leave.
          2. They are also old enough to ride a bike to school or walk to the bus stop. So there is little reason to drive them to school in normal situations.
          3. Teens go to school for learning, which is very different from most night shift jobs. Mindlessly stocking store aisles is easy when you are half asleep, unlike learning maths for which you need clarity of thought.

          If you think 7:30 is such a great time to start school, then surely going to work at 7:30 should feel no different, right? Why not do a thought experiment, test it out and switch things around, ignoring logistics. All offices will start at 7:30 and all schools at 9:00. How would it effect the grades of students? How would it affect office productivity? How long do you think it will take for every adult to screem bloody murder?

    • (Score: 2) by mrider on Wednesday August 27 2014, @03:18AM

      by mrider (3252) on Wednesday August 27 2014, @03:18AM (#86043)

      That sounds reasonable and intuitive, and I expect lots of people feel the same way. However, a physician that I highly respect gave a talk about this very subject some years back. His premise was that teenaged children tend to be hard-wired to stay awake later than adults. I was only there to provide audio visual assistance (as the computer geek), so most of it bounced off. But he made a pretty convincing argument that later schooling would help.

      I do recall that I never went to sleep before midnight when I was 16 or so. And I definitely was not a hooligan - I just wasn't sleepy. (I know that the plural of "anecdote" isn't "data")

      --

      Doctor: "Do you hear voices?"

      Me: "Only when my bluetooth is charged."

      • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @05:05AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @05:05AM (#86077)

        I read an interesting article in a psychology class that when they study groups of indigenous people without clocks two interesting phenomena emerge. First is that people don't sleep eight houses straight but rather sleep in chunks with wakefulness inbetween. Second is that given a group with a gamut of ages and above a certain number, around a dozen IIRC, that at least one person will be awake at all times.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @09:41AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @09:41AM (#86141)

          Which makes perfect sense considering that our sleep pattern evolved at times where it was of great advantage if at all times someone in the group was awake to warn of dangers like hungry animals approaching.

        • (Score: 2) by cafebabe on Wednesday August 27 2014, @11:33AM

          by cafebabe (894) on Wednesday August 27 2014, @11:33AM (#86169) Journal

           

          Segmented sleep [wikipedia.org] is the natural pattern but urban life and commuting make it difficult.

          given a group with a gamut of ages and above a certain number, around a dozen IIRC, that at least one person will be awake at all times.

          And it would appear that the fastest and most fearless ones are more likely to be awake at the most dangerous times.

          --
          1702845791×2
    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @05:00AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @05:00AM (#86075)

      Wow what a tool fuckin response. You are offered a scientist presenting scientific data and you respond with 'Get off my lawn' bs rant. Forcing kids to get into the bed at 7 pm won't magically make their bodies go to sleep. You are the cancer that's killing my country, a head-up-your-ass-know-it-all that actually knows diddly squat. You are trying to dictate human biology with your own retarded prejudice. I will not even ask your views on sex education, because I'm sure you are in favor of abstinence because hormones be damned, those kids should just magically control millions of years of evolution with pure will power.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by wonkey_monkey on Wednesday August 27 2014, @07:25AM

      by wonkey_monkey (279) on Wednesday August 27 2014, @07:25AM (#86111) Homepage

      Blame piss poor parenting.

      Or, you know, you could do some actual science and find out that it's more complicated than that. In case you missed it:

      The aim is to tackle widespread sleep deprivation by helping teenagers manage the shift in their body clocks that coincides with puberty. This turns them into "night owls" who favour going to bed and rising 2 hours later than when they were younger.

      I'm not sure why you think better parenting is going to undo millions of years of evolution.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk
    • (Score: 2) by sjames on Wednesday August 27 2014, @01:45PM

      by sjames (2882) on Wednesday August 27 2014, @01:45PM (#86224) Journal

      The time shift is biological. All you would accomplish that way is to make them permanently jet lagged. Unless, of course, you make sure they are NEVER exposed to natural sunlight (which would reset their clock).

    • (Score: 1) by pendorbound on Wednesday August 27 2014, @02:21PM

      by pendorbound (2688) on Wednesday August 27 2014, @02:21PM (#86244) Homepage

      Hey Gramps, chill out! The kids aren't messing up your lawn when you turn in early. It'll be okay. Just go back to your shuffleboard, grab the early bird special at the diner, and turn in by 8 PM. Leave parenting and health concerns to people who actually have kids and/or doctorates.

      If you'd read TFA (or even the summary!), you'd understand that this has nothing to do with discipline and everything to do with the fact that human bodies change as they mature. Teenagers work and learn better if you let them sleep in the morning and stay up later. Their most productive time in terms of brain function and energy is late afternoon into the night. If you force them to get up early, they're either forcing their own clock to go to bed and rise too early or (much more likely) they're staying up late anyways because they literally *can't* fall asleep any earlier. Then they end up sleep deprived for having to get up early to meet arbitrary start times for school. They will learn better and excel in school if you just let them sleep when their body is telling them to sleep rather than forcing them to go against their own natural cycle.

      Quit blaming "piss poor parenting" and start blaming people who confuse good parenting with imposing arbitrary misery on kids out of some twisted idea that you can't be a good parent unless you're saying NO all the time. Sometimes being a good parent means denying kids something they want, but much more often (and this is where REALLY good parent excel) it's a matter of figuring out WHY your kids don't want to do exactly what you expect them to and finding a compromise that works for everyone. You're teaching them an *extremely* valuable life skill (the ability to empathize with others, understand others' motivations, and find a mutually agreeable middle ground), you're showing them respect by treating them as individuals with their own valid wants and needs rather than treating them as serfs beholden to your will. There's a difference between parenting and S&M....

      The most destructive thing you can do to an adolescent is to dismiss their concerns out of hand and make them feel like their opinion has no value to you. A major part of the process of maturing through adolescence is learning who you are, what role you play in the world, and how you can influence the world around you. It sounds like your idea of good parenting is to smash any glimmer of independence under your boot. Then in your next breath, I'm sure you'll complain about how "kids these days" just roll over and take whatever invasion of privacy or destruction of rights the government wants to shove down our throats this week. You have to *teach* kids to think independently and to assert their own individual agency. "Quit complaining kid, get up, and go to school," just reinforces at home the idea that they exist only to serve the State and that their own wants & needs are immaterial.

      There are valid reasons to starting school early for younger kids. First & foremost, younger kids naturally wake up and have the highest level of brain function early in the day. Sending them to learn in that time makes sense! Second, younger kids generally need more help getting ready, and parents need to do that before they go to work themselves. Getting them on the bus in time to run to work is a necessity for any household where all parents work. For older kids and teenagers, chances are they can manage to handle most of their morning routine without Mom or Dad watching over them, so the need to have them off & out the door early isn't there. Refusing to acknowledge the changes in their bodies and minds serves no purpose and hinders their education and overall social development significantly.

      • (Score: 2) by velex on Wednesday August 27 2014, @02:37PM

        by velex (2068) on Wednesday August 27 2014, @02:37PM (#86260) Journal

        That's not the point and you know it. It's part of a weed-out system, and that's how this species likes it. Life ain't fair ya know, so we're going try to make you fail!

        The only thing that's confusing to me is that this comes from the same organization that believes infant male genital mutilation is an effective vaccine against sexually transmitted diseases and even went so far as to make it a matter of women's health in 2012 (because there's totally not a vaccine available for HPV—oh wait, we were all in a tizzy in 2012 because somebody suggested vaccinating girls against it).

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @06:16PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @06:16PM (#86396)

      The COPS certainly don't want hordes of teens wandering the streets after around 9:00 PM.

      Maybe in the 60s and 70s and 80s. But sure as hell not today. Have you looked outside during the summer (or other time)? No kids playing! No kids at all! All locked inside, watching their "entertainment".

    • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday August 27 2014, @07:28PM

      by DeathMonkey (1380) on Wednesday August 27 2014, @07:28PM (#86424) Journal

      Blame piss poor parenting.
       
      Great idea! Let's ignore the science because your gut tells you it's the parents.

  • (Score: 1, Troll) by nyder on Wednesday August 27 2014, @03:28AM

    by nyder (4525) on Wednesday August 27 2014, @03:28AM (#86047)

    If you don't want to sound like english is your 2nt language, use sleep instead of lie in.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @03:32AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @03:32AM (#86048)

      > If you don't want to sound like english is your 2nt language, [wikipedia.org] use sleep instead of lie in.

      • (Score: 2) by SlimmPickens on Wednesday August 27 2014, @04:07AM

        by SlimmPickens (1056) on Wednesday August 27 2014, @04:07AM (#86058)

        = I thought it was a joke, but no matter, because if not, being wrong about something else doesn't invalidate his point.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @04:13AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @04:13AM (#86060)

          It being a british phrase [oxforddictionaries.com] does though.

          • (Score: 2) by SlimmPickens on Wednesday August 27 2014, @05:16AM

            by SlimmPickens (1056) on Wednesday August 27 2014, @05:16AM (#86085)

            Well who am I to question the Oxford Dictionaries? (I referenced it last week lol)

            However AC didn't call him on that did he, so you should have replied to OP.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @04:23PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @04:23PM (#86328)

      What part of Alabama are you from?

  • (Score: 2) by mendax on Wednesday August 27 2014, @03:44AM

    by mendax (2840) on Wednesday August 27 2014, @03:44AM (#86051)

    Ambrose Bierce defined "dawn" in his Devil's Dictionary [pangyre.org] as "The time when men of reason go to bed." He was a very wise man who knew the truth. We would be doing our youth a great service by letting the school day start at noon.

    --
    It's really quite a simple choice: Life, Death, or Los Angeles.
  • (Score: 1) by hendrikboom on Wednesday August 27 2014, @04:34AM

    by hendrikboom (1125) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday August 27 2014, @04:34AM (#86066) Homepage Journal

    About a decade or so ago I heard of a study that indicated that shifting school hours an hour later was enough to yield a full grade-point improvement in grades.

    • (Score: 2) by cafebabe on Wednesday August 27 2014, @12:03PM

      by cafebabe (894) on Wednesday August 27 2014, @12:03PM (#86188) Journal

       

      That makes the matter very clear cut. Countries/states/regions/individual schools which adapt will have better results than those who don't. Actually, this may be one of the advantages of home schooling.

      --
      1702845791×2
  • (Score: 1) by malloc_free on Wednesday August 27 2014, @09:04AM

    by malloc_free (3034) on Wednesday August 27 2014, @09:04AM (#86132) Journal

    Back in my day, I had to get up at 4am to trudge 20km to school in in bare feet in the snow, uphill both ways. The little shits can harden up.

    P.S. Get of my lawn!

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Covalent on Wednesday August 27 2014, @09:12AM

    by Covalent (43) on Wednesday August 27 2014, @09:12AM (#86137) Journal

    We followed the advice of this research. Two things happened:

    1. Students stayed up later.

    2. Attendance got much worse.

    Why? #1 is probably poor parenting mostly. Kids up until 3am on their phone instead of 2am. #2? Kids were now coming to school during rush hour traffic.

    I teach chemistry and am all for improving the quality of education. But there is more to consider than just biology. Also noticeably absent is the degree of improvement. How much better did the late risers do? Probably not very much.

    My easy solution: gym class first hour. Kids get much needed exercise, are not required to do major thinking, get a chance to fully wake up, etc.

    --
    You can't rationally argue somebody out of a position they didn't rationally get into.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @11:36AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @11:36AM (#86174)

      Won't work. At my local high school Gym is never held first period as no one shows up for first period anyway. They have to take attendance for the school day/state funding second period. It is a waste of resource to have a class taught and have 15 percent show up. Everyone has to take gym and therefore attendance rates are the worst out of the classes offered. Making it first thing in the morning only decreases the poor attendance rates.

    • (Score: 2) by sjames on Wednesday August 27 2014, @02:13PM

      by sjames (2882) on Wednesday August 27 2014, @02:13PM (#86240) Journal

      As for 1, naturally, they weren't exhausted from getting up much too late. As for 2, perhaps school should have started AFTER rush hour.

      But the key question would be how were their grades? You say probably not much better, but you seem to lack the certainty of your first two statements. How is it you know less about the thing you could measure than you do about something you couldn't (or did you visit their homes in the night to see when they went to sleep?)

  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Snotnose on Wednesday August 27 2014, @02:37PM

    by Snotnose (1623) on Wednesday August 27 2014, @02:37PM (#86261)

    On the news they interviewed some kid that had to get up at 6 for a 7:30 class. She said she only got 5 hours of sleep. Being a math major I concluded she had gone to bed at 1 AM.

    It was at that point I lost sympathy for her, and all her other "sleep deprived" classmates. I'm up at 6 every morning and guess what? I'm in bed by 10. It ain't rocket science.

    --
    Why shouldn't we judge a book by it's cover? It's got the author, title, and a summary of what the book's about.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @03:32PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @03:32PM (#86295)

      Great advice when that actually works. I'll try to dig up some studies that suggest the hormone changes within teenagers pushes their natural rhythm back so they can't just go to bed earlier without drugging themselves into a coma.

      And as someone that's had life-long sleep issues, it's still a ridiculous idea.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @08:41PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27 2014, @08:41PM (#86452)
    There's a lot of information out there which tells adults how to sleep, which suggests that there's a significant number of them which have never learned. It's human nature to avoid work and instead either blame nature or look for easy solutions. But sleep is a skill which can be learned; infants can be sleep trained, by and large. If you're spending a significant part of the night in stimulating activities, it should be no surprise that you then have difficulty falling asleep. Adjusting school schedules won't help when the real problem is that teenagers are committing akrasia by staying up late. I say this as a night owl myself. My morning self may hate night self, but I have no one else to blame but myself, if I feel ratty in the morning.

    I doubt cave parents had problems with their teenage offspring painting the walls of the cave long after the sun has gone down.