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posted by janrinok on Saturday August 30 2014, @05:24PM   Printer-friendly
from the always-read-the-small-print dept.

Techly.com.au are leading with a story about Valve falling foul of Australian legislation:

The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) has commenced a lawsuit in the Federal Court of Australia against Valve Corporation, alleging that Valve made “false or misleading representations” regarding consumer guarantees by its popular online games service, Steam.

The ACCC’s case alleges that Valve has failed to comply with Australian Consumer Law by refusing to refund games purchased through the network, for any reason.

The very fact that they refuse to refund purchases "for any reason" contravenes Australian consumer protection legislation.

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  • (Score: 2) by jasassin on Saturday August 30 2014, @06:01PM

    by jasassin (3566) <jasassin@gmail.com> on Saturday August 30 2014, @06:01PM (#87606) Homepage Journal

    They have great DRM free games. For $5.00 I got a bunch of excellent games and they even work on Linux and Mac.

    --
    jasassin@gmail.com GPG Key ID: 0xE6462C68A9A3DB5A
    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Hairyfeet on Saturday August 30 2014, @11:24PM

      by Hairyfeet (75) <{bassbeast1968} {at} {gmail.com}> on Saturday August 30 2014, @11:24PM (#87680) Journal

      Uhhhhhh....I guess you haven't kept up on current events? Most of the Humble Bundles are now for Steam games, in fact looking at my past purchases I have over 40 steam games and the DRM free games i can count on two hands with plenty of fingers left over. Sure you still get some indie games that are DRM free but Steam has petty much become the de facto game delivery system, as noted by EA who is having a sale on Steam for their CoD franchise, even though they had been pretty much origin only since that service came out.

      That said I have to say I really REALLY like Steam, for it is DRM done right. it never gets in my way and what they give me in return is IMHO well worth letting Steam call home once a month. I get hassle free matchmaking, that alone is worth it as the old way was a fucking mess of incompatible services and a SHITLOAD of router tweaking just to get a game up and running. Then add to that the best damned service in the business, show me anybody else that will give you a tier 1 service guy to help you fix a connection issue at 10PM on Xmas eve during a sale? that's unheard of in this age of "did you try a reboot?" tier 23 card reading lackeys. Then there is the auto updating hassle free, the excellent support of the modding community with Steam Workshop, the hassle free management of DLC, and of course the near constant sales going on which lets me grab titles I missed or was on the fence on for crazy cheap. After switching my family over to Steam the "Hey I can't get this game to work, come help" calls disappeared, all in all I can't think of a thing to complain about when it comes to Steam.

      As far as TFA? I'm kinda torn, because on the one hand if you sell in a country you have to follow their rules but considering that I have had friends deal with Valve over a game that just wouldn't run on their PC and it was handled quickly and hassle free I have to wonder how many are abusing this to make the Steam store into a "try before you buy" kinda deal which frankly just isn't right for valve OR the consumer. If you were to force every game to go "guns blazing" right out of the gate it would just ruin the pacing of many games and punish devs who tried to build up rather than charge full speed ahead, and that would kill any incentive for devs to offer free weekends of their games which is what you really SHOULD use as a try before you buy because you have enough time to really put it through its paces and see if its your cup o' tea.

      Does Australia have this same rule for other consumables like movies? if so I now understand why prices are higher there as what is to keep people from just watching or ripping the flick and returning it? And I'm sure that just because the game is digital doesn't mean Valve can just wave a wand and do this cost free, as I'm sure that the costs of dealing with the CC companies and devs getting money back isn't getting passed onto the consumer. Maybe Valve ought to charge Australians $10 a year and return the money at the end of the year if you don't do any returns? Seems more fair than passing the costs onto everybody with higher prices.

      --
      ACs are never seen so don't bother. Always ready to show SJWs for the racists they are.
      • (Score: 2) by SlimmPickens on Sunday August 31 2014, @12:11AM

        by SlimmPickens (1056) on Sunday August 31 2014, @12:11AM (#87690)

        Does Australia have this same rule for other consumables like movies?

        We don't even really have that rule. According to the herald [smh.com.au]

        "It is a breach of the Australian Consumer Law for businesses to state that they do not give refunds under any circumstances, including for gifts and during sales. Under the Australian Consumer Law, consumers can insist on a refund or replacement at their option if a product has a major fault," Mr Sims said.

        In my opinion it has nothing to do with the cost of returns, it's just that it once was expensive to ship things here, staff and offices are expensive, until the internet there was SFA we could do about it, and now we have a lot of income others feel they are entitled to it. Of course, any economist will tell you something is worth what people will pay.

        There's this strong concept of "a fair go" in Australia, and I'd suggest many wouldn't return the game even if it wasn't working just because they feel that they bought it "fair and square" and it's not the shop owners fault so why should he pay for it? I certainly don't hear people I know saying "I don't like it, I think I'll return it" the way I see people discussing PC components online.

        The gouging is really against our national ethos. To be fair though, there are Australians doing it too, like Gerry Harvey and Frank Lowy.

        OTOH, when the drug companies justify gouging us on the basis that they distribute stuff in africa at cost, I usually think they're lying but at least its a reasonable argument.

        • (Score: 1) by sjwt on Sunday August 31 2014, @01:21AM

          by sjwt (2826) on Sunday August 31 2014, @01:21AM (#87714)

          I got a return for LOTR online, I bought it fro $20 well after it came out, and the updates where 80+gigs, or I could download the latest DVD bundle at 18 gig and just the latest updates at 20gig..

          totally unacceptable with out forewarning for back when we still had 20 gig ADSL internet accounts, and a refund was issued after a call to State manager.

      • (Score: 2, Informative) by deimtee on Sunday August 31 2014, @12:13AM

        by deimtee (3272) on Sunday August 31 2014, @12:13AM (#87691) Journal

        The law says that if something is "not fit for purpose" the vendor must provide a process to fix, replace or refund it.
        Steam saying "no refunds for any reason" is a blatant defiance and they will get their arses kicked.

        The ACCC has both big balls and sharp teeth, and is quite popular with citizens in Oz.

         

        --
        If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
        • (Score: 2) by Hairyfeet on Sunday August 31 2014, @09:33AM

          by Hairyfeet (75) <{bassbeast1968} {at} {gmail.com}> on Sunday August 31 2014, @09:33AM (#87797) Journal

          The problem is the rule and reality? VERY different as I have had friends whom for one reason or another a game simply wouldn't run and after Steam support couldn't fix the issue they gave them back the money, hassle free. I think the rule is because there are some game companies (Ubisoft I'm looking at YOU) that just use Steam as a bootloader and then hand off to their own service so in those cases there really isn't any way for Steam to "take back" the game as you can just launch it through the other service.

          But I try to help out on the Steam forums and I don't think I've come across anybody who legitimately couldn't run a game that didn't get a refund, valve has been frankly one of the best companies I've ever had to deal with. Like I said show me any other company that would get a tier 1 tech with extensive networking exp on the horn on 10pm on Xmas eve just because you are having an issue with a $20 gift from your kids. Honestly he really impressed the hell out of me, he even emailed me a link to a dev only alpha build of Steam because he thought (and was correct) that some of the new networking code they were working on would fix the issue I was having with the game. When you go THAT far above and beyond to make things right? You have earned yourself a loyal customer who will happily sing your praises, as you just don't se that kind of dedication to customers anymore.

          --
          ACs are never seen so don't bother. Always ready to show SJWs for the racists they are.
          • (Score: 1) by deimtee on Sunday August 31 2014, @11:54AM

            by deimtee (3272) on Sunday August 31 2014, @11:54AM (#87819) Journal

            I'm not a gamer, and I don't use Steam. If you say they are a wonderful company, fine, no problem. I believe you, ok.
            But under Oz law they cannot say "no refunds for any reason".
            Even if they then ignore it and give refunds, they are not allowed to say it.

            --
            If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
            • (Score: 2) by Hairyfeet on Sunday August 31 2014, @07:56PM

              by Hairyfeet (75) <{bassbeast1968} {at} {gmail.com}> on Sunday August 31 2014, @07:56PM (#87915) Journal

              So they just do what everybody else does and add a 40% "tax" on Australians for having to support an "any reason" refund law. I'm starting to see why Australians get screwed when it comes to just about everything, because they ignore the fact that every additional burden you stick on a company WILL be passed right back to the customer.

              --
              ACs are never seen so don't bother. Always ready to show SJWs for the racists they are.
              • (Score: 1) by deimtee on Monday September 01 2014, @09:49AM

                by deimtee (3272) on Monday September 01 2014, @09:49AM (#88053) Journal

                It's not an "any reason" law. It's a no "no refunds for any reason" law.
                If something is offered for sale in Oz by a business, it must be "fit for purpose".
                If it doesn't work, doesn't do what is claimed, or breaks down unreasonably quickly, then the seller must make good on it.
                No exceptions.
                That can be repair, replacement, or refund, depending on circumstances.

                When Steam said "no refunds for any reason" they were claiming the law didn't apply to them. The ACCC takes a dim view of that.

                --
                If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
  • (Score: 1) by Username on Saturday August 30 2014, @06:28PM

    by Username (4557) on Saturday August 30 2014, @06:28PM (#87615)

    I hope they win. I’ve purchased a few games I wish I could refund.

    If this lemon law can help get people who did the same get a refund, I’m all for it.

    • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Lagg on Saturday August 30 2014, @06:32PM

      by Lagg (105) on Saturday August 30 2014, @06:32PM (#87617) Homepage Journal

      Yeah, I'm usually a big fan of Valve but they need to rethink their strategy in terms of refunds because of the recent saturation of shovelware. Either they need to stop allowing it through (and kill greenlight because even though it's given us great games it mostly just enables shovelware crap. It's a failed experiment) or give people a chance to refund because this is getting really bad.

      --
      http://lagg.me [lagg.me] 🗿
  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by meisterister on Saturday August 30 2014, @06:42PM

    by meisterister (949) on Saturday August 30 2014, @06:42PM (#87624) Journal

    ...is speculation. The only benefit that I see in steam is that there are frequent and often very aggressive price cuts on various games. If the amount refunded is the current asking price for the game (unlikely), then some users, myself included, would use the refund system to make money by buying games while heavily discounted and waiting.

    --
    (May or may not have been) Posted from my K6-2, Athlon XP, or Pentium I/II/III.
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by c0lo on Saturday August 30 2014, @10:38PM

      by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Saturday August 30 2014, @10:38PM (#87668) Journal
      The same record that keeps your account associated with the game you purchased, can be added another field of "the price of purchase" - how hard can it be?
      As long as the refund is done in full (money returned in the same amount as paid), the Australian law is satisfied.
      --
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford