posted by
LaminatorX
on Monday September 08 2014, @08:12AM
from the tell-us-how-you-really-feel dept.
from the tell-us-how-you-really-feel dept.
I've been reading with horror the mainstream games journalists attacking en-mass the people who put butter on their bread and finally someone has written what I was thinking. Gamers are not dead, but games journalists are running scared.
From the article:
I’m writing you an open letter, because you really seemed to enjoy the one you received the other day. Unfortunately, you might not like this one as much, because it doesn’t allow you to pontificate to your readership in a belittling and condescending manner, but at least if I am going to outline some painful truths I’ve done so in a manner you may find more palatable. After all, it is customary to make the dying as comfortable as possible during their final moments.
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Gamergate without the Sexist Smokescreen
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(Score: 5, Funny) by aristarchus on Monday September 08 2014, @08:14AM
After all, it is customary to make the dying as comfortable as possible during their final moments.
Not really relevant with gamers, since they are just going to respawn anyway. However, they have my condolences.
(Score: 4, Informative) by jimshatt on Monday September 08 2014, @08:22AM
(Score: 4, Informative) by quadrox on Monday September 08 2014, @08:37AM
I read TFS and I read three quarters of TFA, and I still have no idea what this thing is about. Perhaps a link to the previous open letter that is referred to in TFA might help, but as is, this story is completely meaningless for people who don't already know.
I realize that there is a lot of (too much) bitching about editing lately, but seriously, this article is not useful at all.
I'll go back to RTFA now, but I don't think I'll understand it any better afterwards.
(Score: 2) by GlennC on Monday September 08 2014, @02:29PM
I R'd the FA, and I still don't understand much.
The only thing I got is that someone is upset that the games publishers are advertising directly to the gamers, and not using "gaming media."
It also seems that people are up in arms about the fact that some people just can't get along.
Sorry folks...the world is bigger and more varied than you want it to be. Deal with it.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 08 2014, @08:41AM
These should explain everything.
Quinnspiracy Theory: The Five Guys Saga
http://youtu.be/C5-51PfwI3M [youtu.be]
Quinnspiracy Theory: The In-N-Out Edition
http://youtu.be/pKmy5OKg6lo [youtu.be]
Quinnspiracy Theory: White Castles and Ivory Towers
http://youtu.be/Km3DZQp0StE [youtu.be]
(Score: 3, Informative) by DMS on Monday September 08 2014, @03:48PM
http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/bitwise/2014/09/gamergate_explodes_gaming_journalists_declare_the_gamers_are_over_but_they.html [slate.com]
(Score: 2) by velex on Monday September 08 2014, @10:00PM
Mod parent up. I had a feeling from some of the comments there was a bigger issue than just a shitstorm of sexists blaming entire genders for the actions and words of other sexists with a heaping helping of white knightism, and that was an enlightening read that fleshed out the issue pretty well without being obtuse and longwinded like TFA. (or me!)
TFA actually kind of makes sense now. Thanks
(Score: 3, Insightful) by cosurgi on Monday September 08 2014, @10:39AM
maybe the problem is that in gaming industry there are only positive game reviews or no reviews at all.
And the games are much worse than 20 years ago, excluding fancy graphics of course.
#
#\ @ ? [adom.de] Colonize Mars [kozicki.pl]
#
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 08 2014, @07:06PM
Oh noes!!!11!1! Games are much worse than they were 20 years ago! How will civilization ever be able to move forward?!? Maybe the real problem is that there are a bunch of people who are in desperate need to get real lives?
(Score: 3, Informative) by Kilo110 on Monday September 08 2014, @10:56AM
Some woman named Zoe Quinn that made a game called "Depression Quest" got called out by ex-boyfriend for cheating on him with a bunch of dudes and being an all-around nutjob. A lot of those guys were video game columnists and included her boss. Woman and gaming has been a contentious topic for keyboard-warriors for some time now so the typical types formed their ranks and started hurling shit at each other. Complete with the usual hyperbole and cherry picked arguments, of course. One side claims "gamers" are all vile 16 year-old white boys that are all conspiring to keep women down and the other side is going on about how this is proof that all video game columnists are terrible people and the industry is full of corruption.
Of course everyone who is sane and/or employed continues to not give a shit either way.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by wantkitteh on Monday September 08 2014, @12:10PM
The less hysterical (but ironically highly depressing) version:
A woman releases a fairly simple video game that aimed to raise awareness of mental illness. It did it's job fairly well and got covered by various folk on magazine sites and blogs. Her ex boyfriend then accused her of cheating on her with everyone who reviewed the game. Pretty much all the coverage of the game was then bombarded with hate-comments and Zoe herself is targetted by hackers and doxxers who generally ruin her life over something that was never any of their business. This generated more coverage, some of which posited the sexism angle - that none of this would have happened if the game had been released by a guy. Cue further coverage and a huge comment firestorm anywhere the topic is covered. Many of the comments are of such poor quality and moral integrity that the sexist gamer angle is proved almost instantly. This leads to accusations that this whole thing is a big cooked up conspiracy to discredit all male gamers as sexist pigs and drum up as much publicity for the game as possible. The possibility of continuing a rational debate on the topic immediately shrinks to zero and the whole argument is left resembling the shot in Animal House just after Bluto yells "Food fight!"
Anyone who actually cared about the subject of sexism in computer games and/or had more to say other than "no shit, Sherlock!" and the Bilbo Bagshot effect rides again.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday September 08 2014, @01:15PM
It really has nothing to do with her game unless you're just looking for an avenue to shout about sexist little peckerheads. And since sexist-little-peckerhead "Gamers" are a minority of the gamers subset which is itself majority female [dailydot.com] and majority 30+ [theesa.com], you really have to be looking for one. It does however have a hell of a lot to do with corruption in the entire indie gaming development/journalism/awards industries and how Zoe's friends and clients always seem to win the awards and get their way in gaming coverage.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by Sir Garlon on Monday September 08 2014, @01:43PM
The sexist little peckerheads are indeed a small minority of gamers, but holy shit you do not need to go looking to find one. They are all over the place, trolling forums and getting in your face like they were waiting in ambush. Any "community" that tolerates and defends people like that is no place for me.
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 08 2014, @02:28PM
One might say the same thing about the current breed of vocal "feminists".
(Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday September 08 2014, @03:20PM
The point was, the whole "OMG! Trolls are being trolls!" thing is a red herring to cover up an insane amount of corruption in the gaming industry. Trolls are always being trolls. It was only brought up this time as a distraction so the Powers That Be in gaming don't get their collective nuts roasted over the fire.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3) by Sir Garlon on Monday September 08 2014, @03:48PM
That point did come across. I guess what I object to is downplaying how vile those few trolls are, how toxic and pervasive their presence is. I am not following "gamergate" but it seems from the outside that the presence of this blight (the sexist dickhead trolls) is making it impossible to have an adult conversation about something that matters, namely, corruption in the industry and most especially the media. So the gaming industry seems to have two problems: the corruption, and the toxic environment that makes it unpleasant to try to talk about anything.
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday September 08 2014, @04:56PM
Fair enough. Maybe they should start using slashcode so they can deal with their trolls like we do ours.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by mojo chan on Tuesday September 09 2014, @07:19AM
The trolls are just a symptom. Anita Sarkeesian made this point in her series of videos. Games don't deliberately set out to be sexist most of the time, it's just the designers being lazy and throwing in some strippers or necrophilia to make their title more "mature" and edgy.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
(Score: 1) by wantkitteh on Tuesday September 09 2014, @10:27AM
Thanks for that, I read that article but couldn't for the life of me remember who wrote it or where I saw it ;)
(Score: 1) by wantkitteh on Tuesday September 09 2014, @10:00AM
There seem to be certain games that attract them like (moths to flames / flies to crap)*, check my last journal entry for an example regarding the treatment a friend of my sister got when he was using his SO's account to play CoD.
*delete depending on your opinion at time of reading
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 08 2014, @03:27PM
There was never any proof she was attacked by hackers, she cried wolf and like the stupid little lemmings you are you all believed her, grats. The first "attack" she claim came from wizardchan, they denied it, and if you cared to do any research, (instead of talking out your ass), you'd know they are an actual online group of people with real depression. The going "theory" is she started the attack against herself, to draw attention to herself. I wonder where she learned to do that? The same with 4chan and the #gamergate tag they started, until it was hijacked by the SJW and their all might Zoe Quinn super Hypocrite, it was meant to shine a light on corruption in gamer journalism, which was actually due in part to Zoe sleeping around. So she is useful in one aspect I guess.
She's a proven narcissist and pathological liar, but give her a free pass, because you know... she's only a woman, and all the White Knights need to stand up for someone. Anyone that criticized the Journalist that slept with her were immediately attacked and labeled as sexist assholes. Because you know name calling wins every argument when the facts are against you. Then said shitty "Journalist" started White Knighting for her everywhere calling all "Gamers" sexists assholes, to cover their own asses of course...
But hey believe whatever helps you sleep at night little lemming, the internet doesn't forget.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 08 2014, @07:16PM
I just wonder why you are so very emotionally invested in this "controversy". It's not like she's just a heartbeat away from the presidency or anything. What's up with that anyway?
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 08 2014, @09:40PM
I'm more mad about what the SJW and the gamer journalist did in her name.
If a man bribed judges and critics we'd hold them all accountable for it, but if it's a woman we're all just sexists assholes.
Feminism is not a shield for corruption.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 08 2014, @06:17PM
Zoe herself is targetted by hackers and doxxers who generally ruin her life over something that was never any of their business.
There was never any evidence provided that she was the target of any serious threats. She never filed any police reports. She did get quite a lot of angry hate messages for what she did, many of them crossed the line of decency. Let's just move over that. I don't have to address it other than to say I don't support that sort of behavior. Let's look at her behavior then. She did cheat on her boyfriend. That alone isn't any of my concern. It's a pretty horrible thing to do, but plenty of people do it and it's never any of my business unless I'm the one being cheated on or someone close to me. She also traded sex for favorable reviews and publicity. This absolutely IS my business if I'm a potential customer for her game or a reader of one of those sites. I happen not to be, but plenty of people were and are and they have good reason to be angry.
So that's what we have. Death threats and doxxing: never OK. Thankfully it doesn't appear any of that actually took place. Trading sex for publicity, also never OK. That DID happen. Trying to distract people from your corruption by faking being attacked for being a woman is also never OK. And the worst part of the whole mess is the legions of white knights and SJWs who bullied the rest of the media into towing that line.
She's not being attacked for being a woman. She's being attacked for being unethical, a liar, and using sex to pay for publicity.
(Score: 1) by wantkitteh on Tuesday September 09 2014, @10:05AM
...and the wall of flaming trolls continues it's march across the Internet, one stop behind any kind of coverage of this case.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 09 2014, @05:13PM
This just in, anyone everywhere that doesn't agree with me is a sexist troll asshole because I can't discus the topic like an adult or admit a woman slept with men for favors.
(Score: 2) by cafebabe on Monday September 08 2014, @12:45PM
I thought this might be related to http://www.returnofkings.com/42109/how-zoe-quinn-screwed-her-way-through-the-video-game-industry [returnofkings.com] [NSFW] and http://www.returnofkings.com/42399/why-is-the-zoe-quinn-scandal-blacked-out-across-the-internet [returnofkings.com]
Regardless, this 1/10 game is getting terrible reviews from players on the Steam website. See http://steamcommunity.com/id/chasemo/recommended/270170/ [steamcommunity.com] and http://steamcommunity.com/id/Drivershaft/recommended/270170/ [steamcommunity.com] for examples.
1702845791×2
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Monday September 08 2014, @02:44PM
It looks to me that the summary has nothing to do with the headline...without the headline, I have no idea what it's about at all. I can't even tell what the hell this "buttering bread" nonsense is supposed to refer to.
Heh, and the site is blocked from work. Nice.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 08 2014, @08:23AM
TFS is meaningless to anyone not already in the middle of whatever it is and TFA made my eyes glaze over after about 3 paragraphs.
Is there anything meaningful here or is it just navel gazing?
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 08 2014, @09:14AM
Here's the most important paragraph:
TL;DR: The "traditional" gaming press is obsolete. They can't be trusted to comment on "issues" like the Quinnspiracy. Their reviews can't be trusted, because they are either being paid off or told what to publish by game companies (or out of fear of not getting the next exclusive interview). With Twitch, Steam et al. there's no need for smart gamers to preorder a game or rely on traditional reviews to evaluate a purchase.
Mine:
There's a lot of bad apples [slashdot.org] in the media. But gaming media are particularly spoiled. News media outlets arguably produce real journalism. Gaming media outlets often just exploit the gamers. So the Internet can, should, and will wipe them out.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 08 2014, @10:43AM
There's a lot of bad apples in the media.
Yes the green site you just linked to is a bad apple. Please don't link there.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 08 2014, @10:59AM
(not the GP) It was relevant and illustrated a point, so it was probably a reasonable link.
I've had it with that punk-arse site, though.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 09 2014, @02:29AM
It took me a minute because I thought the person was claiming that the story they linked involved a "bad apple" journalist, except that the story is about a journalist who was falsely accused of being a bad apple, and has been exonerated.
Then I realized, oh, yeah, the link is that beta site from the 90s. Definitely rotten by now. The sellout was bad enough, but then when the sellouts sold out, it was like... "woah."
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 09 2014, @03:10AM
Exonerated? By whom? [huffingtonpost.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 09 2014, @03:36PM
Splitter!
(Score: 4, Interesting) by cafebabe on Monday September 08 2014, @03:08PM
This type of debased journalism extends beyond gaming and into much of the computer industry press. On an unpaid basis, I've worked with two people who later became editors of computer magazines. One of the magazines was fairly reputable. That editor rightly looked down upon the magazine which was ad-supported junkmail. Unfortunately, since printed computer magazines have been in decline, the trashy editor and his buddies are now offering their "journalism" direct to companies.
Specifically, for a fee, they will review a product or service and submit the review to the company which makes it. The company can then modify their offering, ask for changes in the article or bury the result. If the review is released and someone checks the credentials of the author, they'll find articles and awards from when the journalist had a shred of integrity. Essentially, the journalist is trading on past glories. However, even this is dubious.
Before the editor is the least credible publication was promoted, he was tasked with obtaining a press release from Microsoft. However, Microsoft had arranged this as a deliberately time-consuming junket which involved a flight to Seattle, a round of minigolf with fellow journalists and drinking at the 19th hole prior to distribution of the press release. Total time consumed: three days, during which time, the ability to cover competitors was deliberately impaired.
Furthermore, this publication accepted double page adverts from Microsoft, ostensibly for brand awareness, but with the implicit understanding that the scoops and advertising money would cease if there was unfavourable coverage.
1702845791×2
(Score: 2) by cafebabe on Monday September 08 2014, @05:43PM
It seems that Microsoft's Public Relations tactics are now standard in the game industry. From the comments of http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2014/09/06/do-you-still-think-that-gamergate-is-a-spontaneous-movement-against-game-industry-corruption-zoe-quinn-has-some-screenshots-to-show-you/ [wehuntedthemammoth.com] found via https://twitter.com/DavidFutrelle/status/508423161734381568 [twitter.com] found via https://twitter.com/search?q=zoe%20quinn [twitter.com] :-
1702845791×2
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 08 2014, @07:33PM
You actually trust a reviewer to tell you which games to buy?!? This is your problem right here. You should always take any review of any product with a huge grain of salt. Most of the time, the reviewers have no clue what they are talking about. This should be obvious to anyone with a clue. I'm actually surprised (and disappointed) that I even need to point this out.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Monday September 08 2014, @08:39PM
Except for when they've played the game and you haven't yet, in which case, yes, they have more of a clue than you do, technically.
Whether they accurately *communicate* this clue is, as described above, the problem...
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 1) by Horse With Stripes on Monday September 08 2014, @09:25AM
If TFA was by one of these "journalists" then I think I know why they aren't relevant anymore: they suck donkey balls. I bet this guy makes asking the time of day into an encounter and asking for directions take longer than whatever you were going to do in the first place.
He must get paid by the word and have serious gambling debts that he's paying off.
(Score: 1) by IndigoFreak on Monday September 08 2014, @01:04PM
I agree. I read the first few paragraphs and gave up. It was like I was reading something by a student trying to make his 10 page essay with only 2 pages of content. The art of writing only relevant information is dead and has been replaced by people that like to hear themselves type.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by lennier on Monday September 08 2014, @09:28AM
I've been following the Gamergate trainwreck over the last week, also with horror - but for precisely the opposite reason as the article submitter believes. The horror comes from watching a collective madness seizing the self-described 'gamer' community, as bizarre conspiracy theories coming from 4chan are used to harass actual, human game developers and journalists on Twitter. Most of the posts are coming from brand-new Twitter sockpuppet accounts with fake identities, giving the impression of a vast movement when it's only a few obsessed individuals, and they simply make no sense.
I have nothing but sympathy for the game developers and journalists who are speaking out against this insane conspiratorial backlash, and I have absolutely no time for the self-described 'gamers' who are causing this harassment. Real people in the indie games industry are being hurt by this. And they are the very best of the community: the ones who've lived games for decades, who care deeply about it, the ones who believe that gaming is a true artform and want it to mature and grow. You don't want these guys being hounded out of the industry by a raving mob. But that's what's in danger of happening if we don't stand up and confront the elephant in the room: the trolls among us.
Yes, we in the tech and gaming community collectively have a huge abuse and misogyny problem in our subculture. It's centred around the consequence-free anonymous-trolling culture of 4chan and reddit, but the voice chat of games is also pretty awful. Women are hugely underrepresented and are treated abysmally in the game industry, compared to other creative industries. We all know this. Those of us who care, have known this for decades. It's time we faced this perfectly criticism and grew up.
Here are a few articles from the adults in the room describing the chaos and pain this outburst of insanity - there's really no other word for it - is causing.
TechCrunch: The Gamergate Question [techcrunch.com]
Vice.com: Will Trolls Always Have A Home? [vice.com]
LA Times: Gamergate-Related Controversy Reveals Ugly Side of Gaming Community [latimes.com]
Time Magazine: Sexism, Lies and Videogames: The Culture War Nobody Is Winning [time.com]
Screen Crush: Reel Women: How Misogyny In Gaming Culture Hurts All Of Us [screencrush.com]
Extending The Branch - a conversation between a game developer and a 'gamergater' [storify.com]
Please, if you want to contribute sensibly to this debacle, use the #GameEthics hashtag on Twitter. There's an actual conversation occurring there, about the ethics of game development and journalism (turns out there's a lot of issues which game developers would love to talk about, starting with the work conditions in the industry). But avoid #gamergate. It was started by 4chan trolls, for trolling, and it continues to be used as a mechanism for harassing the best developers and writers in the industry who make games with heart, soul and love.
We absolutely need this conversation. But we need the senseless abuse of women in this industry to stop, right now. Female developers and writers are getting huge numbers of abuse and rape threats on Twitter right now over this, and it is absolutely not cool.
Delenda est Beta
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Jiro on Monday September 08 2014, @10:25AM
Did you ever notice how the countries with the biggest penalties for crime also have the largest amount of police corruption?
There's a reason for this. The more you "need to stop" some crime and the more you decide to stop it "right now" no matter what, the greater the incentives you create for corruption (and false outrage), and because you've making it easy to levy accusations of crime and hard to defend against such accusations, the greater the opportunity you create for corruption as well. This is no less true when the crime is sexism.
(Score: 2) by MrGuy on Monday September 08 2014, @02:52PM
Did you ever notice that people frequently support their arguments with alleged widely-known correlations that they never actually back up with actual facts or research?
I've been to several countries where there is extreme police corruption (India and Mexico spring most immediately to mind). I'm not aware of either having substantially more "penalties for crime" on the books than the US has. That's anecdotal, of course, but it makes me doubt the correlation you claim. There are a wealth of problems that lead to police corruption.
I somewhat agree with the point that "a desire to fix things RIGHT NOW OMG!" can lead to short-sighted or misguided policies. Why not just make that point instead of using pseudo-facts?
(Score: 2) by Geezer on Monday September 08 2014, @10:36AM
Wish I had mod points. You are spot-on.
Seeing some of the gratuitous misogyny spewing from certain segments of the community, it answers the age-old question, "What do griefers do when they're not in-game?"
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Monday September 08 2014, @01:48PM
I have a pretty strong guess as to what these kind of misogynistic jerks don't do: Date real live women, at least more than once. Most women I know don't tolerate this kind of thing, especially from a basement dweller who has basically nothing of value to offer her. These rejections, while completely understandable, also reinforce their misogyny.
Also, it is unlikely they have a sister or had a close female friend before puberty hits: Having a strong peer relationship with at least one girl in childhood by all appearances makes it much more likely that boys will not grow up to be a misogynistic jerk. It has a lot to do with learning to relate to women as equals before your reaction to a woman is "nice rack".
I feel sorry for them, I really do, because chances are these guys will never know what it's like to wake up in the arms of someone they're madly in love with.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 08 2014, @02:34PM
Or perhaps they *have* dated a real life woman, but they were so madly in love that they didn't see that she was a total narcissistic cheating bitch. That kind of experience, combined with the human tendency to group "others", can certainly colour ones' perspective of women in general. Rather comparably to a claim of "all men are rapists", because of one bad experience.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Monday September 08 2014, @03:03PM
That's part of the point: An opposite-sex sibling or close friend before puberty cements the idea that people of the opposite sex are people first and foremost, and have a lot of variations. You may have dated a narcissistic cheater, but you also know your sister isn't a narcissistic cheater, so you're less likely to conclude from that that all women are narcissistic cheaters.
Also, most women, including the vast majority of feminists, even those who have had terrible experiences, don't claim "all men are rapists", they claim, for good reason, that enough men are rapists that women have to treat all men as potential rapists until proven otherwise.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by Vanderhoth on Monday September 08 2014, @03:36PM
Your last statement doesn't pass the sniff test. If we were to say,
"Also, most men, including the vast majority of feminists, even those who have had terrible experiences, don't claim "all women are rapist", they claim, for good reason, that enough women are rapist that men have to treat all women as potential rapist until proven otherwise."
it would be blatant sexism. Men are actually more often than women the victims of rape and violent crime, but that's glossed over because it doesn't fit and extremist view and justification for misandry.
It's as untrue that "most women" see "all men as rapist" as it is that they have to, or actually do, treat all men that way until proven otherwise. That is the crux of the problem with "femnazis". Who are not the same as feminist, but they use "feminism" as a soap box to spread hate and misandry. It's the whole reason the feminist movement is now failing, a lot of people, women included, are refusing to associate themselves as feminist simply because their movement has been hijacked by hate mongers that don't want equality, they want superiority and power. They are as bad as chauvinistic men that are only out to protect "their territory" and use misogyny as a tool to do so.
The only way sexism gets fixed is if we work together and call out the extremist on either side of the argument that parade around pretending they're part of one movement or the other as a disguise, not by pointing fingers and claiming one gender is worse than another or that one gender is justified in being more hateful/distrustful than the other so it's ok for some of them to propagating false stereotypes.
"Now we know", "And knowing is half the battle". -G.I. Joooooe
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 08 2014, @05:12PM
enough men are rapists that women have to treat all men as potential rapists until proven otherwise.
That's some sexist bullshit right there. It's no different than saying not all blacks are murderers but enough are that we need to treat them all like potential murderers until proven otherwise.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 08 2014, @10:01PM
Remember it's only sexist if a man says it, if a woman says it you better STFU while she speaks her mind you misogynistic lowlife nerd!
(Score: 1) by schad on Tuesday September 09 2014, @02:25AM
I get that you're trying to be sympathetic to the plight of women and perhaps playing a bit of the white knight. But you're wrong. Anyone who claims that does not have a good reason for doing so.
I also find it unlikely that all women, everywhere, got together and elected you their spokesman. So maybe you should stop claiming to speak for "most women" and instead admit that you're speaking for yourself. Have the courage of your convictions. Don't try to hide behind a claim that, oh, these aren't your views, they're views of most women; why, you're just the messenger!
People may not respect your opinions, but they might respect you for being brave enough to state them openly.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by lhsi on Monday September 08 2014, @11:03AM
Twitter is great and all in some cases, but as demonstrated by your informative although somewhat lengthy post, is it the right medium for this sort of discussion? The first three paragraphs of your post would take at least 13 tweets, not including adding in a #GamerGate and "(1 of 13)" to each one.
I've not been following any of this, and it looks like for me to get up to speed (which I have made a brief attempt to do once or twice) I will have to spend a good hour or so just reading up on it. The jist I have gotten from it so far is "some people are dicks", and from this story that there are likely some issues with game journalism.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 08 2014, @12:19PM
I'm betting that if we show lennier the screencaps of Zoe, Maya, et.al, sending abuse and rape threats, he'll deny that the links work.
People who regard themselves has being highly intelligent are more susceptible to being conned.
(Score: 1) by art guerrilla on Monday September 08 2014, @01:39PM
1. don't really do games (will waste some time on bejeweled or zuma, or other 'games' like that), gamer kultur, or care about it one way or the other...
2. read the shit storm about this, and have occasionally snorted in derision at most of the parties involved... find that anita sarkeesian rubs me the wrong way, and seems quinn is borderline; on the other paw, the stereotypical basement-dwelling, cheesy doodle scarfing, pimply-faced mama's boy shrieking you will take his soft-core porn from his sticky fingers over his couch-potato body, are out in full farce...
3. what interests me are the many layers of hypocrisy (both sides), as well as the extremism of third-wave fembotz which have me burning my feminist card... um, gamers and gamer kultur may be 'big' in some ways, but it is miniscule in comparison to so many other BLATANTLY and OBSCENELY sexist media... um, teevee or movies anyone ? ? ? cheese and crackers, talk about swallowing camels and straining at gnats...
4. uh, GAMES called "FIRST PERSON SHOOTERS" (gee, such a nice name, i'm sure it will be a swell, family-themed and educational experience which is inclusive and respectful of all and has plenty of sparkle rainbows and unicorns !) where you fucking splatter the brains of virtually EVERYONE/THING, and we're concerned the game doesn't offer a choice of wearing a pink tutu when you are splattering said brains ? ? ?
*that* is the 'problem' with that game/fantasy ? ? ?
woman all over the planet got REAL clitorectomies, REAL shootings, REAL rapings, REAL beatings, REAL kidnappings, REAL horror, and -talk about 1%'ers- we got people going full bull-goose looney over the game industry and games not having enough nerd chicks involved...
yeah, i put that at about priority number 4 233 455 423 to get to work on...
the discrimination against having woman digging ditches is plenty despicable, too...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 08 2014, @05:55PM
>on the other paw, the stereotypical basement-dwelling, cheesy doodle scarfing, pimply-faced mama's boy shrieking you will take his soft-core porn from his sticky fingers over his couch-potato body, are out in full farce...
Grep for "#notyourshield"
The 'Corruption' have already been called out on trying to use the gormless doormats to parrot the above.
>woman all over the planet got REAL clitorectomies, REAL shootings, REAL rapings, REAL beatings, REAL kidnappings, REAL horror, and -talk about 1%'ers- we got people going full bull-goose looney over the game industry and games not having enough nerd chicks involved...
Try again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Monday September 08 2014, @02:30PM
Sexim and misogeny is a people problem. It goes far beyond the sphere of video game culture. The problem is global human condition. I fear we are focusing too heavily on the video game aspect when in reality this is coming from all over. Stamping out misogyny and sexism in video game culture is like trying to bail out a boat without plugging the hole(s). You have to get to the source. It all boils down to sexual frustration and tension. It's a stupid problem that is a human condition and fixing it is a challenge all of humanity must tackle.
Time to rant a bit:
"We absolutely need this conversation. But we need the senseless abuse of women in this industry to stop, right now. Female developers and writers are getting huge numbers of abuse and rape threats on Twitter right now over this, and it is absolutely not cool."
I see sexism everyday outside of video games. From the men who openly resented my mother for taking over my father's position as boss when he passed away to the pigs I have worked with who string along women with lies just so they can get laid, ruin their lives and laugh at it. I see these stupid articles about "oh the horrors in the video game industry" when it goes on all around you every day and you dont say one fucking thing. That is what pisses me off about these articles, it's just about video game land. The trolls are all around us and we have to fight them at all angles. Not just in video game land. How about women in the construction industry, trucking industry or any other male dominated industry? How many women out there would be more than happy to drive a big rig or turn a wrench but are too afraid to apply for because of male chauvinism? Because of cat calls, rape threats and other bullshit? This isn't just a problem in IT and video games. The fight has to be united across the board for all industries in which women face sexism and oppression.
(Score: 2) by velex on Monday September 08 2014, @04:23PM
This. The demographic of the single male "nerd" who's not "good with women" (dating being the sole criteria for this, so sexist, such homophobia) is easy to beat up on, so they do it.
That being said, don't discount the woman who chooses a traditional gender role of her own free will. There's nothing either of us can do for her no matter how much we want to. There's a person over there who would have cured the common cold if she hadn't decided to become a housewife, so let's blame every individual who had nothing to do with her decision. That's been working great for the last 20 years... er... well... if it's not working, we're clearly not doing enough of it!
Sexism is soo, sooo pervasive, and I see no solution. We're all individuals, and we're constantly trolled by sexists of both genders.
Some drama happened, someone painted with a pretty big brush, and got some paint on me. By now I'm used to it, but it does make me slightly more wary every time it happens of being in the same spaces as women when I'm being forced to present as the male gender. (Most strangers just think I'm a woman.) Just as women have to be afraid of me, I have to be afraid of them and their white knight champions.
Where is there room for individuality in any of it?
Two wrongs never make a right, and right now I see a bunch of people shouting and screaming about how they want a dialog but aren't willing to listen any time somebody points out that being a man isn't as great as they think it is or that there might be privileges on their part they may be overlooking. They certainly won't consider the idea that they might have done something sexist themselves or might need some "sensitivity training" of their own.
All we ever see is the desire to bash an entire demographic. And I'm looking at the immature jerks on both sides here.
What's worse, I have almost no idea what the fuss is about. I just don't have these problems when I go online. But I'm probably just a sexist pig because I'm not willing to play white knight or because I don't subject myself to games that are infested by 12 year old cussing and swearing boys. I just can't feel sorry for somebody who doesn't know where their /ignore command is.
There's too much sexism from everybody here.
(Score: 2) by metamonkey on Monday September 08 2014, @07:29PM
That's what bothered me about this whole mess. Particularly with regards to Anita Sarkeesian (I think I spelled that right). She claims someone (must be a gamer!) on twitter threatened to rape and murder her and this "drove her from her home." The evidence is rather dubious as the screen shot she posted was taken immediately after the threats were made, on a screen with no search term and a logged-out account. Immediately the SJW alarm is sounded and we have to hear from 15 different blogs about how terrible and misogynistic "gamers" are. And that's bullshit. Gamers cut a broad swath across the population. Young, old, male, female, married, single. And yet everybody gets called out.
Sexism absolutely exists. There are those who will, upon learning that Steve is bad at math, say "Wow Steve, you suck at math." But if Amy is bad at math they will say "Girls suck at math."
Well, if a woman (or a man) credibly threatens a man with sexual violence ("I'll cut your dick off and kill you") that person is called a deranged psychopath. But when a man(?), who may or may not play video games makes an almost certainly not credible threat against a woman, then "gamers are deranged misogynists."
And the woman-friendly blogs make this sweeping generalization without irony. And of course they do, because their aim is not to fix the "problem," whatever that may be. Their aim is to wrack up clicks and ad revenue. Nothing ever happens when the media takes on a social justice cause except the media makes money. It's always about the money.
If Anita or Zoe or whoever had worked for, say, Blizzard, and they were credibly harassed by someone for doing their job developing games, you know what would happen? She'd complain to her boss who would say "Oh shit, I need to solve this lady's problem so she can keep working and making me money!" He'd call the police, they'd contact Twitter and get the perp's IP and follow up with the ISP and have the guy arrested or get a restraining order or whatever. They would solve the problem and there would be no "story."
But since that's not the case, those who can profit off this mess do so by writing hand-wringing article after hand-wringing article about how gamers and the gaming industry as a whole have some problem because of the actions of one asshole. Clickbait clickbait clickbait, collect the money, file the articles away so when another opportunity pops up in six months they can whip those right back out, change the names and run the whole show all over again. Nothing is actually "fixed" because there's nothing to fix.
Okay 3, 2, 1, let's jam.
(Score: 1) by wantkitteh on Tuesday September 09 2014, @10:40AM
While the screenshot in that case may have been "dubious", the serious/pro/hardcore gamer online environments are painfully easy to provoke sexist behavior in - generally, all you have to do is log in and do something that reveals your gender as female, like speaking into a microphone.
I've noticed one of the issues is that the gamers who have been up in arms about all this and flaming anyone who even breathes a word about all this into the stone age seem to have this group blindness to the fact that online gamer culture has a powerful divide straight down the middle on gender lines. The female gaming market seems from my perspective to be firmly entrenched in the smartphone / social media market while the male gaming market continues to hog the majority of AAA PC/console releases. While this is more to do with the development of computer/device usage patterns of either gender, it's also reinforcing this divide with both sides looking down on each other - boys don't play Facebook games because they aren't "real games" and girls don't play console games because they're "immature". (Actual words used in a 6 person gamer discussion split 50:50 on gender)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 08 2014, @08:10PM
Uh, yeah. Sure. Have at it, dude. No one is stopping you. Go for it. Just because some are calling out misogynist jerks in the gaming world doesn't mean that we all uniformly turn a blind eye to misogyny in other areas of the world. Many might even applaud you for it. Whatever. Like I said, go for it.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Monday September 08 2014, @02:57PM
Oh, is this supposed to be Gamer-gate as in the annoying convention where every scandal has to be appended -gate because the U.S. public won't recognize it as a scandal otherwise? I initially assumed it was the name of a magazine, like GamerGate = "portal to gaming."
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 08 2014, @02:59PM
That is an extremely biased post.
All it boils down to at this time is a case of journalistic corruption for sex and game developer corruption for publicity. There is even solid evidence and admissions of the parties in question. What has blown this whole ordeal out of proportion is when the journalists and game developers that have had their integrity questioned went on an all out blitz campaign, of which can be seen in the parent post. Numerous stories, censoring, and claims of overwhelming misogyny amongst a group that is hundreds of millions strong all to push away the evidence and uncomfortable ethical questions. Honestly one huge red light should have gone off in your head as soon as someone claims a large group of heterogeneous people is misogynist. It is as much hate speech as saying African-Americans have a culture of crime. Thinking about it in another way, it is the equivalent of someone disagreeing with the Israel's military policy being branded an anti-Semite.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Monday September 08 2014, @03:15PM
"giving the impression of a vast movement when it's only a few obsessed individuals, and they simply make no sense."
This didn't just appear out of the blue, this is how video game journalism has been since I was a kid.
No one wants to call it what it is... so to save money, the big game producers outsource their PR to "journalist" wannabes that take sponsorship and favoritism and outright money in exchange for acting as outsourced PR department. This mostly works pretty well, it seems marketing grads really will work for peanuts and free early release copies of games, but once in awhile the lack of direct upper management support means the children misbehave and there's no parental figure to apply much needed corporal punishment, think of the fraternity paddling scenes from hollywood movies. So inevitably the loudest children are the guys cursed by genetics with tiny weiners who compensate by shitting all over women (because obviously its their fault, somehow...), and the closeted gays shrieking homophobia like only closeted gays can shriek it (think congressional republicans, till they get caught and outed) and they also compensate for their feels by again shitting all over women as a group (because they don't want them anyway, those guys want young boys or trannies or male furries). And with no direct parental supervision the out of control house party isn't going to stop until either the parents come home or the cops break it up.
That's really all their is to the meta story, although there's a lot of blather about one little incident or another. Its just the first ten minutes of Animal House but with lame actors. And it'll happen again and again until business conditions change.
The only way to change it is for EA to just outright buy their complimentary copy PR team "psuedo-journalists" and then provide some minimal level of parental style oversight on the children, or stop buying them off to encourage them, so they wither away. Follow the money, its all the big games development house's fault, and things are going just they way they want it, including all the rage not being directed at them.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 08 2014, @03:39PM
Your champion is a whore, and your adult journalists are only defending her to defend themselves by proxy. They fucked up, but instead of addressing the corruption issue which #gamergate was really about. They decided to scream sexism as loud as possible to turn the whole thing toxic. Why try to defend your actions when you can just scream instead.
Quinn did they same thing. Corruption? what corruption, I only see attacks from white male suppressors. I must have missed the section of feminism about fucking your future boss. A proud day for all.
There was and never has been and never will be any proof that anyone hacked, tried to hack, or anything along those lines.
But she can scream wolf and you idiots will come running, good little doggies all of you.
You wanted to believe in a champion. Well guess what it's not her. She's a liar, a slut, and she's doxxed others that got in her way, but grats though, you choose a real winner there.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 08 2014, @05:03PM
[Men] are hugely underrepresented and are treated abysmally in the [early childhood education field], compared to other [fields]. We all know this. Those of us who care, have known this for decades. It's time we faced this perfectly criticism and grew up.
How is what you said any different from saying this? Men and women are different. Maybe those differences will manifest themselves in unequal representation in various fields. So what? Division of labor and recreation. The entirety of humanity doesn't have to be split down the middle of every demographic.
You don't just have to demonstrate a disproportion number of men in gaming, you have to explain why I should care, why it's a bad thing. It doesn't seem to matter at all in the end.
(Score: 2) by Boxzy on Wednesday September 10 2014, @01:25AM
No matter how much you and fellow feminists try to push #GameEthics on twitter your efforts are known and deprecated.
Go green, Go Soylent.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by acharax on Monday September 08 2014, @11:11AM
There's hardly such a thing as actual game journalism, most of it is (and has always been) paid advertisment. Back in the day gaming magazines were either owned by the very firms that they were supposed to write about, or at the very least funded by their advertising. Nowadays, it's either the latter or the reliance on early demos and such provided by developers. Gamers began to realize this and went to get their game related news and information (actual information, such as game footage that isn't a prerendered or at least prescripted sequence that's irrelevant to the game's actual content; or reviews that weren't written by someone who's obviously only played the game for 15 minutes) from alternate channels.
Paid journalism was posed with a problem when this trend began to gain traction and had to in turn direct its efforts onto another focus group (one that's only into gaming for the social component, not for the games themselves). Flamboyant articles certainly helped in accelerating this trend and eventually led to an inconvenient outcome, they painted gaming in a light that wasn't hip and cool anymore so their new audience moved on to the next hip and trendy social activity (whatever that might be this month), leaving these portals in a struggle to maintain readership or trying to regain some of it (as it would appear).
Should "game journalism" vanish entirely I for one can only think of one phrase, and nothing of value was lost.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 08 2014, @12:28PM
I spent an hour reading up on this shitstorm in a teacup and came to the conclusion that everyone involved is a complete moron. Take Zoe Quinn's blog for example.
Agree completely. But how seriously do we take a complaint about pictures of her breasts being shared on social media when they're coming from a woman who features topless self-portrait photography on her public deviant art gallery? I wasn't looking for shots of her tits, not that I was bothered by it nor was she bothered about publishing these pictures. Can we just leave exhibitionist, attention seeking and dramatic personality types to enjoy the dramas they create for themselves? None of this is any of my business so why is it news?
(Score: 2) by RaffArundel on Monday September 08 2014, @01:08PM
But how seriously do we take a complaint about pictures of her breasts being shared on social media when they're coming from a woman who features topless self-portrait photography on her public deviant art gallery?
This is very close to the "she was wearing a short skirt, so she was asking for it" argument. The answer to your question is - her body, she can chose to share or not share as she wishes. If she believed the pictures were private (don't get me started on what a dumb idea that is, especially in this day-n-age) then at a minimum it is a violation of trust. If it was being used to discredit or embarrass her, which I don't know I am not following this "story", then it goes from violation of trust to attack.
None of this is any of my business so why is it news?
I was wondering that myself, since TFS was an incoherent mess, and the link to the article suggested it was yet another rant on how bad game press is. Fortunately, there are some actual information in the posts here. A couple of interesting points to discuss:
1. Gaming journalism, and whether the way the industry hands out exclusives has destroyed any semblance of actual reviews or if they have simply become the marketing channel of the big guys.
2. Women in the gaming industry. Regardless of how this unfolded, or how blown out of proportion this specific case is, it sounds like "woman produces game, ex-boyfriend wants revenge, attacks ensue". Note the tactics (apparently) - call her crazy, a slut, show private pictures. Maybe I'm still thinking about the green site, but there were some really old fashion views about women programmers every time the subject came up over there.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 08 2014, @03:00PM
Women wearing short skirts very often are "asking for it" or at least advertising availability. In no way does that justify sexual assault, neither would it justify a complaint about men being able to see the womans legs. Let's check for mutual exclusivity:
And you can check her twitter, she's not exactly playing the victim role. So we have a bunch of abusive bullies masking their activities behind a load of bullshit about corruption in games journalism. And the target of the abuse who appears to be something of an exhibitionist and remains more or less un-fazed while milking the publicity for all it's worth.
If they'd all kindly fuck off, I wouldn't have to read about this stupidity ever again.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 08 2014, @03:44PM
Those masked bullies could very well be her attacking herself for sympathy. Which is likely what happened at the start to gather outrage and support for her. A real sicko IMO.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by tangomargarine on Monday September 08 2014, @03:42PM
But how seriously do we take a complaint about pictures of her breasts being shared on social media when they're coming from a woman who features topless self-portrait photography on her public deviant art gallery?
This is very close to the "she was wearing a short skirt, so she was asking for it" argument. The answer to your question is - her body, she can chose to share or not share as she wishes. If she believed the pictures were private (don't get me started on what a dumb idea that is, especially in this day-n-age) then at a minimum it is a violation of trust.
If you don't think they were public, just say so. Don't twist it around.
If it was being used to discredit or embarrass her, which I don't know I am not following this "story", then it goes from violation of trust to attack.
I'm not sure I follow. Using information you have freely distributed to the public against you is wrong? Other than in a court of law vis-a-vis the Fifth Amendment?
I'm probably missing some subtlety somewhere, but you seem to be pretty directly talking about that dumb idea you said you didn't want to get into.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 08 2014, @06:32PM
The pictures were available to anyone willing to pay to see them... like a typical...
(Score: 2) by mojo chan on Tuesday September 09 2014, @09:40AM
The photos being posted were not the ones from her public site, they were private ones.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
(Score: 2) by RaffArundel on Tuesday September 09 2014, @12:32PM
The various comments suggest that the pictures making the rounds are private pictures from her ex, not the publicly posted one. So, public ones SHE shared on DA vs. private ones HE shared to the world. My comment about what a dumb idea is because the moment you trust someone (ANYONE) with private information you could be asking for trouble.
So, if that is the case, and the argument is "but she already shared OTHER pics" then I am in fact saying that her ex is a scumbag and likely using them for the sole purpose of discrediting her and/or revenge.
Clear now?
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Tuesday September 09 2014, @02:19PM
Ah, okay. Fair enough.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2) by cafebabe on Monday September 08 2014, @10:09PM
I take issue with dismissing an argument comparable with "she was wearing a short skirt, so she was asking for it" because I cannot dismiss the latter as easily as I used to. My change in opinion may not be expressed concisely but I hope it stops a conflation in some cases between some blame and zero blame.
There was a crime program presenter who, as part of his work, spent a lot of time with police officers. He summarized his expertise in a book which explains how to reduce crime and how to reduce being the victim of crime. Unfortunately, he was lambasted for publishing the combined wisdom of many law enforcement officers because the observations weren't politically correct.
Specifically, he made the argument that it was foolish to leave a laptop visible in a parked car because an opportunist thief can smash a window and steal the laptop. Likewise, if a woman wears a short skirt then she may increase the risk of opportunist sexual assault. Well, that was deemed to be a regressive, misogynistic opinion and I initially agreed.
However, upon reflection, he's right. Rape is very wrong and most males have been lectured about it whether they had any intention to do it or not. However, not everyone plays by the rules or acts rationally in every situation. The result is that wearing provocative clothing brings a very small element of doubt to the matter. Would a situation have been less likely to occur if a woman dressed more conservatively? Possibly.
Historically, choice of clothing has been used by defence lawyers as part of a character assassination which itself was for the purpose of introducing reasonable doubt. Unfortunately, this often went too far and left victims traumatized. A common sentiment was that a rape victim felt on trial rather than the rapist. Nowadays, we have the opposite situation. Women have unimpeachable character if they dressed like prostitutes, get paralytically drunk or do things which are foreseeably risky.
Anyhow, to address the argument of "she was wearing a short skirt, so she was asking for it", I agree with it to a very, very limited extent. A small but non-zero portion of blame should assigned to anyone who wears provocative clothing or engages in risky behavior. Returning to the earlier analogy, we take simple steps to minimize the theft of electronics and anyone who doesn't is deemed to be reckless. However, when the same approach is applied to personal safety, people who wish to minimize the downside are deemed to be medieval and oppressive.
Full disclosure: I've had a laptop stolen. I've had a car window smashed, I wear short skirts (and get called a hussy), I've been sexually assaulted and I've been on anti-rape marches.
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(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 09 2014, @02:36AM
Well, all those people who died on 9/11 already knew there were people in the world who hate Americans, and that the World Trade Center was a symbol of Western Culture. Therefore, they should have known better than to work there.
No. No. You should not give up your freedom, or stop defending the freedom of others, because some "expert" said you'd be safer with less freedom. (in this case, a policeman! People who don't even follow the law, and aren't trained in the law)
(Score: 2) by cafebabe on Tuesday September 09 2014, @04:14PM
Despite pop culture references about the destruction or threatened destruction of the World Trade Center [wikipedia.org], people arguably under-estimated the risk.
My argument is that risk should evaluated rationally, obvious quick wins should be followed (such as putting property out of temptation) and people should proceed if they find the risk to be acceptable. As an example, I wear clothes which increase my risk of sexual assault (or worse) but I also take steps to minimize this risk. Even if I wore very frumpy clothing, it would be my choice to do so.
1702845791×2
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 09 2014, @05:07AM