Jon maddog Hall blogged:
I am never again going to tell people why they should be using Free Software.
Instead I am going to ask them why they insist on using closed source software.
Is it because they love paying lots of money for software that does little more (if anything) than suitable Free Software?
Do they use closed-source software because they love waiting weeks and months for patches that they might have gotten much sooner in the Free Software community?
Perhaps they love getting new versions of the software thrown out at them every so often, instead of being able to directly interact with the developers through forums and mailing lists.
I will wait for these people to tell me that they use closed-source software because of the software warranty (laugh) or the support they get (bigger laugh).
What I really expect is that when I ask the question, I will get a sort of puzzled look and they will say "I do not really know why I use closed source software" and I will be most of the way to converting them.
There's also an old adage along the lines of "Tell me and I will forget; show me and I may remember; involve me and I will understand." Has anyone here attempted the above approach? What results have you had?
(Score: 4, Interesting) by kaszz on Sunday September 21 2014, @02:33AM
This "able to directly interact with the developers through forums and mailing lists" also requires that you have a certain knowledge and IQ-level or you will be served the RTFM! or something similar. It's understandable since highly skilled people don't have the time to deal with something that won't benefit the project enough. But all the documentation usually means there's other people that know and may help you longer down on the skill ladder.
The other reason why people use pay-ware is because it's bundled and just works. Catch is that when it stops working as you expect. You are truly fucked. Examples include developer tools under Microsoft, Smartphone operating system, setup-boxes, ADSL modems etc..
But in general, he's right.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 21 2014, @07:08PM
Maddog is one of those idiot "evangelists" who blame the users. Good luck getting more users from your competition when your approach is implying they are the problem.
I don't insist on using closed source software. I try to use works for me and the situation at hand. Whether it's open source or not.
The other reason why people use pay-ware is because it's bundled and just works. Catch is that when it stops working as you expect. You are truly fucked.
When GNOME/KDE doesn't work as I want I'm kinda fucked too. I don't have the time to modify GNOME or KDE till they work the way I want. Nor do I want to spend time trying all the other different desktop linux combinations out there. Might as well stick to using Windows for desktop stuff instead.
FWIW Microsoft appears to be backpedaling a bit with Windows 9. Do the OSS Desktop and related apps bunch even listen? Too many seem to prefer going "WORKSFORME" or "WONTFIX" and giving their userbase the finger AND continue doing so even when their users start leaving. That's nice for the developer (he can do what works for him), but then stop asking really stupid questions.
Android has a bigger share than Windows Phone and IOS. Are people using it because it's open or closed source? Does maddog believe that the people using OS X instead of Windows or Linux are doing it because OS X was closed source? Given that OS X has gained more desktop marketshare in a shorter time than the Desktop Linux bunch perhaps we should ask the Desktop Linux developers, project managers and "evangelists" (like maddog) why they "insist" on sabotaging the progress of Desktop Linux? ;)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 22 2014, @03:04AM
Bingo! We need a few less evangelists in the FOSS community. Believe me, I would just love it if the Windoze cartel were thrown on the scrap heap forever. But making a pitch for FOSS with all the charm of a used car salesman trying desperately to move a lemon off the lot so he can make quota for the month is not helping anything.
(Score: 2) by choose another one on Sunday September 21 2014, @10:42PM
For typical FOSS project - yes. Not so elsewhere. I've been a developer, tech lead, dev manager, product manager and a few other job titles over the years (*cough*, decades), and in every job I (and at least some of the dev team - if it wasn't already that way, I made it so) interacted directly with our customers / users through forums, mailing lists, user groups, ticketing systems, those weird old things called phones, and face to face on site. Even the stupidest questions were to be answered politely and professionally. Why ? - because those customers are paying your wages with their support contracts, that's why.
Flip side is that if you aren't paying for support (whether it's FOSS or proprietary) then you'll get exactly what you pay for, unless your question happens to be interesting to one of the devs.
Same again, most "bundled" stuff is not actually paid for, and in some cases the developer actually pays the bundler to put it on there, hoping for up-sell or cross-sell later. When/if it stops working you'll get the support you paid for.
No, he's wrong on every point. For a user, software is a tool, the means to do a job, not an end in itself.
When deciding what software to use:
* work out what you need it to do, your features, from must-haves to would-be-nice to don't-cares
* cost, support levels (and cost), source availability etc. are all just features that come into the above
* research what is available and draw up shortlist
* evaluate, test and rate each solution and its supplier against your features list, and score it
* make your informed decision
It really isn't rocket science, and it really doesn't depend on open vs. closed source, at all.
Is it because they love paying lots of money for software that does little more (if anything) than suitable Free Software?
Or maybe they scored their required features (including cost) and made an informed choice. _How_ it does what it does is also important - a free tool which does the job but in an inefficient way that costs you time can easily be more expensive than a paid tool which does the job properly.
Do they use closed-source software because they love waiting weeks and months for patches that they might have gotten much sooner in the Free Software community?
_Might_ have. I have seen exemplary and poor closed source support and the same with Free software. How is X.Org 865 coming along, just to pick one major decade-old one ?
Or maybe just buy a support contract with a proper SLA. I have worked on closed-source software where time-to-fix SLAs were sold (yes, time-to-fix not time-to-respond). Not nice pressure for a developer or team, not cheap for the customer either. Pay your money (or not) and take your choice.
Perhaps they love getting new versions of the software thrown out at them every so often, instead of being able to directly interact with the developers through forums and mailing lists.
Not dependent on open/closed source either - see beginning of comment.
I will wait for these people to tell me that they use closed-source software because of the software warranty (laugh) or the support they get (bigger laugh).
I have worked on closed-source software that shipped with a full warranty, and support contracts with SLAs as above. Tell me, what warranty does free software provide again (recalls GPL, laughs).
(Score: 2) by urza9814 on Monday September 22 2014, @03:10PM
Well, you can get all of that with open-source, you just have to pay for it. Often from a separate company. You can't expect to have developers on-call to fix your specific issues immediately without paying them a dime.
The difference is, with closed-source software people assume that's included in the purchase price. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. On a corporate level, you figure out exactly what's included, and you can figure out what the same support level would cost for something open-source. For home users though, most people make assumptions and get screwed.
(Score: 2) by choose another one on Monday September 22 2014, @10:34PM
So, same as closed source - which was my point. I don't understand why maddog thinks it is some kind of advantage or difference.
Seems that some people do though, looking at some of those aforementioned forums and mailing lists. Maybe they didn't read the licence...
Most intelligent consumers these days would assume they get the minimum warranty required by law unless it's advertised as a major selling point, or sold separately. The "no warranty" section in bold or caps or both in the licence you have to say you have read to install the product is also a bit of a giveaway. Other consumers are most likely the same ones who expect open source devs to fix their specific issues without payment.
So, it seems the same in both cases so I don't get maddogs bit:
I will wait for these people to tell me that they use closed-source software because of the software warranty (laugh) or the support they get (bigger laugh).
" Why are you laughing ?
" You bought closed source software and thought you'd get a warranty and support, sucker - you'll have to pay developers extra to work on your specific issue!
" So what should I have done ?
" Used Free Software of course !
" So do I get a warranty and support with that then ?
" No of course not, stupid - you'll have to pay developers extra to work on your specific issue
Just don't see how that helps convert anyone.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by doublerot13 on Sunday September 21 2014, @02:37AM
Put two opaque boxes on a table, one with a $10 price tag and one with a price tag of $100 bucks. Ask a hundred people which one they think is better even though they have no idea what is in each box, they will pick the $100 one the majority of the time.
It's how people are wired. They make judgements on the appearance of relative value and just can't accept the possibility of free > not free.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 21 2014, @03:15AM
Not all closed source software costs money.
Tell me a program that is better at editing mp3s than mp3tag (and I have tried many)? How about a better more flexible derfragmenter than mydefrag (and I have tried many)? Show me the multitudes of open source games better than what I can buy on steam or for my ps3? Or even humble bundle (which is not free btw).
I give that there are better software out there in the open source world. I use many of them like 7zip, xbmc, one of the many distros of linux, my android phone etc etc etc.
But some people confute that free is better than not free. Just because it is free does not mean it is better. It just means it is free.
I insist on using closed source software because sometimes the open source flavor is just not as good. Less features or broken in some odd way. I *could* fix it but why waste my time when I just want to get something done? The other way around is just as true too. For example IE vs Firefox or Chrome.
This whole 'post' is nothing more than something to start a flamewar between two factions. I admit I got baited into it.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 21 2014, @03:40AM
If you stop using M$'s 4th-rate filesystems, that process becomes unnecessary.
Most people's complaints about FOSS are actually complaints about the EULAware they refuse to shake and its incompatibility with everything else.
(In contrast, Linux has had perfect compatibility with NTFS since 2007--for those who find that they must interact with a filesystem without proper permissions.)
.
free
Go back and substitute **freedom from anti-competitive predators** everywhere you used that.
If your sentence has the same meaning, you're golden.
Otherwise, you're missing the point.
Not all closed source software costs money
You're definitely missing the point.
-- gewg_
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 21 2014, @08:48AM
Are you telling me ext* filesystems never get fragmented? Or that NTFS doesn't have ACLs?. Also, ntfs in Linux sucks; you need ntfs-3g, which uses fuse (and doesn't support some things like encryption).
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Sunday September 21 2014, @10:58AM
Are you telling me ext* filesystems never get fragmented?
Yes.
(Amazing, ain't it?)
(Score: 4, Interesting) by TheRaven on Sunday September 21 2014, @02:43PM
It's also not true. FAT-based filesystems are more likely to become fragmented because they store free space in a linked list (each table entry contains the address of the next free block). The simplest and most memory-efficient algorithm for finding free space is just to pop the first block off the head of the list. It's not intrinsic to the filesystem that you have to use this strategy - you can walk the entire list and find the best fit, or you can build some in-memory structure from it storing free ranges.
FAT on DOS was notorious for fragmentation because of a combination of two factors. The first was that there was no disk cache, so you got blocks allocated as soon as you started writing to a file, with the filesystem not knowing if you were going to write one block or a thousand. The second was that memory was scarce and the FAT was a relatively dense encoding of free space if you didn't want to keep any in-memory data structures.
More modern filesystems address this by storing the free space in a data structure that is efficient to search for ranges, so you can quickly find, for example, a 1MB chunk of free space. They also store things in a disk cache for a while so that you can let the application write to the file for a bit before you decide how big it's going to be. Applications also (sometimes) cooperate by seeking to the end of the file and writing one byte before writing the rest, which helps the OS work out the amount of free space.
On a modern system, fragmentation is far more a factor of usage patterns than of the on-disk representation, unless the filesystem does block-level deduplication (which has to increase fragmentation as an intrinsic property of its operation).
sudo mod me up
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 21 2014, @02:07PM
Oh good I can play all my latest games from steam in linux? Whats that, only a handful? Oh. All of them come with the source code right? Oh they dont. Hm...
I can write .net apps in linux (my job)? Whats that oh I cant? Oh.
I can use a decent editor for SQL Server in the open source world (again my job)? Whats that oh I cant? Oh.
I can use a decent editor for OracleDB in the open source world? Oh I can because they bothered to port it over? Well ok.
I can lock down a laptop using a decent one stop shop in the open srouce world? You know like AD? Oh there isnt.
You're definitely missing the point.
I get the distinction. You want to argue it apparently. Many people confuse free/open with better. That is not true. You are falling prey to a logical fallacy. I get the distinction between free and open. But there is tons of software out there where open source sort almost works as good. But then it doesnt. The opposite is true too. I have bought this supposedly wiz bang software only to go back to an open solution because of failure to meet expectations.
If you stop using M$'s 4th-rate filesystems, that process becomes unnecessary.
Fragmentation is not as bad in ext4. However you are a damn fool if you dont think it doesnt happen. I have ended up with files that have 20,000 extents in them. They take a decent amount of time to read out and or delete. When the extents are low it takes seconds to minutes for the *exact same file*. It is provable that you can fragment any ext4 drive. As ext4 does not do data movement to ensure fragmentation does not happen. I heard the same lies when people switched from FAT16 to NTFS. We know how well that went. I can in NTFS with the use of mydefrag carefully place where I want my files to land and help with boot speed (20-30 seconds cold boot on a 7200 rpm drive). There is NO tool like that in the open source world or in linux. Just lots of promises of 'trust me its better'. Well I bothered to test it. They only way to 'fix' a drive that ends up in that state is to copy the whole thing out then copy it back. Oh just like a defragmenter does. If you think SSD's will fix the issue you deluding yourself there too. I have tested that condition too. Walking an extent tree takes time.
You are also assuming I do not use linux. I use it every day. It is part of my job.
You also assume I do not test and do A/B/C comparisons of features, speed, and usability with what I do. I need software to do work. Not push a philosophy. I know what is 'good' vs 'bad' vs 'crap'. I have seen crap from all sides. There are many broken promises on all sides.
You live in this weirdo binary world where everything is black or white. I live in a world where I pick and choose tools based on what I want to do. In the real world I deal with what my customers/employers want. You know so I can get money to pay for things like my house and families needs.
(Score: 2) by rts008 on Sunday September 21 2014, @02:16PM
While I agree with your point 99%, I would like to draw attention to the sentence: "It's how people are wired."
*the remaining 1%:
I would disagree here. I would replace 'wired' with 'trained/conditioned'.
I also think it is an important distinction to make in this context: advertising and marketing.
If you are aware that you are being manipulated, then that may affect your decision.
BTW, I'm not trying to pick a fight, highjack the thread, or twist what you said.
I just feel that 'wired' clouded the issue...like we have no choice about the matter.
That doesn't change or diminish your original point, IMO. :-)
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Monday September 22 2014, @01:21PM
I agree it's a learned behavior. I believe it can be unlearned. To teach people to think about economic activity differently, though, is a long project. The status quo is so heavily stacked against change, you need to present an alternative that's orders of magnitude better (cheaper, easier, freer, etc) and then do it. If the status quo helps you out by self-destructing to an extent, the bar will be lower. But don't expect anyone in your lifetime to ever look at you with anything but an expression of quizzical non-comprehension.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 21 2014, @03:30AM
But I'm curious - are you completely satisfied with that old car you drive now?
(Score: 2) by urza9814 on Monday September 22 2014, @03:21PM
Actually...I for one certainly am. You can have my Pontiac G6 GT when you pry the steering wheel from my cold, dead fingers!
...Or when gas goes up a few more bucks I guess...hoping this baby holds out long enough that my next car can be a used Tesla though :D
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Horse With Stripes on Sunday September 21 2014, @03:39AM
You're never going to "convert" people by talking down to them or treating them in a condescending manner. Educate them respectfully and let everyone choose what's best for their own needs.
Let's not forget that familiarity with a product has value. Learning something new takes time and a user's time is just as valuable as Jon Hall's. If paying for something they are familiar with is a better fit for the user then that is the right choice for that user.
Hall's "they're just to stupid to know better so I'll try to paint them into a corner by outsmarting them" approach is not going to win the hearts and minds of the masses.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 21 2014, @04:10AM
talking down to them
You have a very slanted view of someone asking an honest question and waiting for an answer.
Q: Why are you hitting yourself in the head with that hammer?
A: Because it feels so good when I stop.
Sure, that answer is truthful--but does it make sense?
If examining your logic reveals a flaw in that logic, that's an opportunity for improvement.
something they are familiar with
eXPee just EoL'd.
Learning a newer M$ OS will have its gotchas.
I've seen enough gripes about Tiles8 to know "familiar" is a big stretch.
In addition, many old boxes won't have device drivers compatible with the newer M$ OS.
A whole new box is an unnecessary expense that can be avoided--if you select the software that allows that.
(The hardware support offered by Linux is legendary.)
...and, of course, this would be a good point to mention that Linux is gratis.
Learning something new takes time
Point & click interfaces are more alike than different.
The time is ideal to learn the $0 software that will run on your old box.
Hall's "they're just [too] stupid[...]
Projecting much?
-- gewg_
(Score: 2) by quacking duck on Sunday September 21 2014, @04:58AM
This. As example, one thing I found incredible was the sheer volume and vileness of anti-Apple comments during the recent lead-up to the iPhone 6 launch. Some had truly legitimate points, the majority did not and were nothing more than personal insults or accusations that don't stand up to scrutiny. They were as bad as, if not worse, than the Apple fanbois.
I've disliked a number of Apple's recent decisions, so I've been ambivalent about my next personal phone. I asked for an HTC One M8 for work, so I'd be up to speed on one of the best Android had to offer. But the attitude and behaviour of the haters has me thinking of getting another iPhone just to spite them, especially since the Android experience hasn't blown me away.
(Score: 2) by frojack on Sunday September 21 2014, @06:31AM
I agree, belittlement, and well practiced verbal entrapment NEVER makes friends.
Maybe if Santa [kalovskihost.com] shaved, but on a suit and tie, and looked like something other than a hay-seed he might have more success convincing CEOs and CFOs of the cost effectiveness of Linux.
Until then, they guys on the IT staff who are sneaking Linux in the back door are doing a much better job of proving the worth of the OS to the bean counters than all the pontificating in the world. Most CEOs don't realize how much Linux they are already running.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by gman003 on Sunday September 21 2014, @04:34AM
I use whatever works. Ideologically-driven decisions are rarely *good* decisions.
Much of the time, open-source development creates a better product at the lowest price. But it has weaknesses - either things it just doesn't do well, or in a niche it hasn't filled yet. I'm still waiting for a good open-source video editor (the best I've found is the NLE in Blender, which is hardly a good solution). In those cases, I use proprietary. And even in some cases where there is a comparable open-source product, sometimes the proprietary one is just better enough for me to use.
I am a programmer, but I've never read the code to any of the dozens of open-source programs I use daily. The ability to "fix it myself" is the same as my ability to run for President - theoretically I could, but it's not going to happen. Similarly, pretty much every mistake I've seen a proprietary program make, I've seen an open-source one make.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 21 2014, @05:50AM
I use whatever works
...right up until it doesn't work.
At that point, if you're using closed-source, you're at the mercy of the folks who have the source code.
That's a hell of a way to run your operation.
I've never read the code[...]The ability to "fix it myself" is the same as my ability to run for President
Don't sell yourself short.
This guy's main job isn't scribbling code, yet, because the code was open, he pulled his own fat out of the fire. [googleusercontent.com] (orig) [goodbyemicrosoft.net]
If he had to depend on a closed-source vendor, he might still be waiting to use his shiny new kit to its full spec.
-- gewg_
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 21 2014, @08:52AM
I'm still waiting
I am a programmer, but I've never read the code
Ideologically-driven decisions are rarely *good* decisions.
Keep waiting buddy. To pass the time you might want to read this http://mako.cc/writing/hill-when_free_software_isnt_better.html [mako.cc]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 21 2014, @05:30AM
Those programs help people get a lot of stuff done in the real world, and they are worth their often substantial cost. Why shouldn't companies make money from writing useful software? It seems weird to expect programmers to give away the most valuable fruits of their labor.
(Score: -1) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 21 2014, @06:08AM
September 15, 2014
Launching Today: Mathematica Online! [wolfram.com]
"accessible just through any modern web browser"
...and for the people who constantly mention M$Orifice, that's online too.
Same deal: any modern browser.
-- gewg_
(Score: 3, Insightful) by davester666 on Sunday September 21 2014, @07:16AM
how is paying to access closed-source software via a web browser even remotely similar to using open-source software?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 21 2014, @07:41AM
He has made the decision that only that closed-source app will do.
Mathematica wasn't available at all to Linux users last week. Now it is.
Waddaya want? A rubber biscuit?
He *could* use R. *Lots* of folks do.
-- gewg_
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 21 2014, @12:59PM
I've used Mathematica since some time in the 90s. The only instances that weren't running in Linux computers ran on "real" Unix systems (DEC, IIRC). I've never used Mathematica on a Windows or Mac system.
So I apparently was using a non-available system all the time? ;-)
(Score: 1) by mj on Sunday September 21 2014, @02:16PM
actually there was a free version for the Raspberry Pi [raspberrypi.org]
The nihilists have such good imaginations.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 21 2014, @05:48AM
No systemd.
A lot of opensource software now does not respect user freedom.
The whole reason for free software's existence is user freedom.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 21 2014, @06:17AM
No systemd at all: Funtoo, LSD (Less System D)
systemd not used by default: Gentoo, Slackware, CRUX
Debian also has kFreeBSD.
...and, of course, there's always Linux From Scratch.
FOSS is still about freedom--if you shut your mouth and open your eyes.
-- gewg_
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 21 2014, @01:04PM
So now it's no longer free as in speech, but free as in view? :-)
(Score: 3, Insightful) by TGV on Sunday September 21 2014, @06:42AM
Does he want an honest answer? Well, that answer is that –for most people– OSS sucks big time. For many mundane tasks, there is no decent OSS. Text processors, spread sheets, presentation packages, video editors, picture editors, and drawing programs are all chunky and buggy, or don't run on your hardware/OS, or require some technical skill to install and use, or any combination. And the user interface almost always lacks. That's why. And of course the non-existent or hopelessly outdated and unreadable documentation.
People also don't care about the principles behind OSS. They reason: if you want a product, you have to pay for it.
> Do they use closed-source software because they love waiting weeks and months for patches that they might have gotten much sooner in the Free Software community?
I you open the bug list of LibreOffice, or Firefox, you'll find bugs that are years old. I've filed a few for Firefox, and they just don't get resolved. There are long standing bugs in Chromium.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 21 2014, @08:47AM
chunky and buggy
Name some actual apps that *you* tried and the shortcomings that *you* discovered or you're just blowing smoke.
no decent OSS
The City of Munich is over 94 percent FOSS.
They would say you're full of shit.
The Brazilian public school system is 100 percent FOSS (500,000 seats in 2011).
They would say you're full of shit.
Text processors
Text editors? Linux has well over 1000; if you can't find one that suits you, that says a lot more about you than it does about FOSS.
Format shifters? Head over to inconsolation.wordpress.com. K.Mandla has them by the score.
long standing bugs
Describe how even 1 of those affects *you*.
Again, you're just blowing smoke.
...and M$ only recently stopped making you wait until the 2nd Tuesday of next month to get CRITICAL patches.
bugs that are years old
When 1 of those surpasses the Windoze bug that remained unsquashed for 17 years, be sure to holler Bingo.
Meanwhile, point to the bounty that *you* put on even 1 showstopper.
Again, you're just blowing smoke.
People also don't care
Talk to the folks running an old M$ OS who bought hardware recently and found out there wasn't a device driver compatible with their obsolete M$ OS.
The only people who don't care are the ones with lots of spare money.
In the midst of the Bush-Obama Depression, those get to be fewer each month.
-- gewg_
(Score: 3, Interesting) by TGV on Sunday September 21 2014, @01:29PM
> Name some actual apps that *you* tried and the shortcomings that *you* discovered or you're just blowing smoke.
If that's your answer, then you're part of the problem. The post is about someone who doesn't want to reiterate the advantages of OSS any longer, but wants to insult people's intelligence by asking why they used closed source. Who cares about what shortcomings I've discovered? There are multitudes of posts and bug reports and feature requests out there describing all kinds of bugs and problems, some by me. But it's not about the shortcomings I care about, it's about what the person who "maddog" is addressing thinks.
> The City of Munich is over 94 percent FOSS.
> They would say you're full of shit.
http://www.zdnet.com/after-a-10-year-linux-migration-munich-considers-switching-back-to-windows-and-office-7000032714/ [zdnet.com]
> The Brazilian public school system is 100 percent FOSS (500,000 seats in 2011).
500k? That's not that many. There are about 200M people in Brazil, and by my estimate, 20 to 40 million of them should be school going (25.4% is in the age 0-14). And the Argentine, the Peruvian, the Surinam, the Ecuadorian, the Chilean, and the Colombian school systems are apparently of a different opinion, and that's just staying in South America. If we just look at one or two small countries in Western Europe, you'll see that each has more than .5M seats, nearly all of them Windows based. If numbers matter, you've lost.
> > long standing bugs
> Describe how even 1 of those affects *you*.
Ah, please ask maddog first. He brought the item up.
> Talk to the folks running an old M$ OS who bought hardware recently and found out there wasn't a device driver compatible with their obsolete M$ OS.
Those folks are surely be going to have a device driver for their old Linux machine, that they can install all by themselves by compiling it for their machine, oops, catching a bug or two, trying to get those committed into the main trunk, and installing a kernel patch. But, as usual, you're not addressing the topic at hand. If you want to fix that problem, write OSS Windows device drivers for new hardware.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 21 2014, @06:44PM
Ed Bott?? ZDNet?? Are you fucking kidding me?
There is no more ridiculous example of a M$ FUDster.
Know how you can spot a fact-free Windoze fanboy?
He keeps repeating that swill.
It was debunked here already.
ONE newly-elected 2nd-tier functionary said something to a "reporter" who didn't check it for veracity but did repeat it.
The circle-jerk of Windoze fanboys repeating it ad infinitum didn't make it any more true.
After getting 94 percent conversion and saving €10M, the city council of Munich is definitely NOT going backwards.
No, Munich Isn't About To Ditch Free Software and Move Back to Windows [soylentnews.org]
.
The reason that boot-to-a-desktop Linux disks work (and have worked since last century) is because they discover and set up the hardware flawlessly.
Knoppix working without installing it and without having to run around rounding up device driver disks is a great counter to the falsehood your denialism.
Not finding ONE DEPLOYMEMT with half a million Linux desktops significant is called trolling.
-- gewg_
(Score: 2) by TGV on Sunday September 21 2014, @07:17PM
I am really not getting you. Yes, I get that you're spitting foam at seeing a link to ZDnet, but for the rest, you don't counter any argument. Yes, Knoppix can boot very well on a number of devices. Congratulations. Did you read the instructions? Do you think anyone who's not interested in it can understand it? Do you have any idea how extremely user-unfriendly the "cheat code" is? And then it still won't have that fabled device driver for new hardware you were talking about.
And after you boot Knoppix, there still isn't a decent text editor. And don't start about the 1000 unfinished MS Word wannabes out there. They all start optimistically, implement about half the features, and then quit. Nope, Linux is not ready for the desktop.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Monday September 22 2014, @05:07AM
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Sunday September 21 2014, @07:18PM
"flawlessly" is overstating the case. There have repeatedly been instances of an install disk that got something wrong on some system.
That said, most of the time I haven't had any trouble, and in one case of persistent trouble I traced it to a bad CD drive. But sound has often been misconfigured, and I've even had one case where the internet connection was misconfigured. (There were two ethernet ports, and it picked the wrong one.)
I'd say the install disks are quite good, but perfection should not be expected in this world. Aim instead to see how many 9's you can attach to 99.9% good.
N.B.: Even math isn't flawless. There have been accepted proofs withdrawn because someone else found a mistake...sometimes a decade later.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2) by choose another one on Sunday September 21 2014, @06:40PM
No outline mode in Writer (reports go back to 2002 at least, took the devs you can interact with on forums five years or so to understand the issue and then we got:
I agree with everybody here that this is an important feature and so does the whole team.
This is one of the bigger features that we will try to implement as soon as some resources will be available.
That was in 2007, still waiting, and people have indeed offered to pay for it on those same forums.
Calc has no pivot tables / charts (show stopper). Never found any FOSS tool that does anything like OneNote.
And that's just a couple of quick ones OTOH.
http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/Blogs/Off-the-Beat-Bruce-Byfield-s-Blog/The-oldest-bug [linux-magazine.com]
[bingo]
But that isn't the point is it, what you need is fast response from the time you actually run into the bug and reporting it, to fixing it. Like this one for instance:
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xorg-bugzilla-noise/2004-July/001091.html [freedesktop.org]
- or maybe not. A decade and counting from reporting it, patches written and contributed by people, but _still_ not fixed in the distribution.
And then there is kernel bug 12309... marked closed but still people reporting on it
And how old is this xkcd, http://xkcd.com/619/ [xkcd.com] ? and yet it takes seconds to find people still reporting problems with flash video.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 21 2014, @10:44PM
The-oldest-bug
go[es] back to[...]StarOffice
Hmmm. I missed that one.
bingo
Indeed. I guess it's true:
Humans who dwell in vitrified abodes should not pitch lithic objects.
fast response from the time you actually run into the bug
Amen.
No outline mode in Writer
There's a giant table somewhere (can't seem to find it now) that lists every single feature of the 2 competitors.
The FOSS side has a bunch of green cells where the M$ side is red.
Obviously, it's a matter of deciding which features are a requirement.
-- gewg_
(Score: 2) by choose another one on Monday September 22 2014, @08:42AM
:-) Me, I still want to find a bug in TeX while Knuth is still alive, but I am not getting very far with that.
I think you mean: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Feature_Comparison:_LibreOffice_-_Microsoft_Office [documentfoundation.org]
The red-green is not all one way. As with any such tables done by others, you need to ensure they cover your particular requirements and then score with your priorities. Open Source is one of those features and for some people it will be a show stopper requirement, for others it may be one of the other features where availability goes the other way.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 22 2014, @11:57AM
Calc has no pivot tables / charts (show stopper).
that's just plain false, in current libreoffice calc, under the dat menu, submenu pivottable
(and btw openoffice used to _call_ it 'data pilot' instead of pivot tables, but the feature itself has been there for ever)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 22 2014, @07:48PM
Wow, this thorough beatdown gets "score 0" while the closed-source proponents are being modded up.
I guess soylent has its [paid] shills now too...
(Score: 2) by Hairyfeet on Sunday September 21 2014, @11:41AM
To me this article [narod.ru] along with the Hairyfeet Challenge, now celebrating eight years without a single consumer desktop passing a challenge that should be trivially easy (which was first passed by Windows with Win2K BTW) frankly says all that needs to be said. That list of major show stoppers started way back in 2009 and you can see by comparing the 2014 to 2009 that most of the 2009 bugs remain they have simply been joined by NEW bugs.
Now I always get hate for pointing out this makes perfect sense, but lets see if Soylent prefers logic over propaganda shall we? You see this makes absolute sense because working on a new piece of software? That is fun and exciting and thus easy to get people to do on their own time for free whereas bug fixing, regression testing, documentation? Those things are thankless, tedious, and boring as hell so naturally they aren't getting done unless you pay for it.
The reason FOSS is only good for a few niches (that are nearly all corporate sponsored and controlled BTW) is what I call the "busted shitter problem" which is simply a fact about the human animal. If I ask you to write me a song, paint me a picture, or write me a poem for free? Not only will I get several submissions I have no doubt that several will be quite good and that is because humans are creative animals that take pleasure from making something. Now how many do you think I'd get if the request was to fix my nasty busted shitter I broke taking a super dump? Probably none and that again is human nature, we don't like being called in to clean somebody else's mess or in this case fix code we didn't write!
This is why corporate funded OSes like Windows on the desktop and OSX and Android (which yes Virginia its 100% corporate controlled and in fact Google is pulling a EEE [arstechnica.com] and with their pushing of corporate controled Android One and pulling support for AOSP they are about to pull the last E) on mobile are #1 with users, because things just don't get better with non corporate FOSS, they just get different. This is what the Hairyfeet Challenge illustrates, which is frankly what should be considered the bare minimum any system that calls itself an OS should be able to do, to update itself for 5 years and have the drivers function at the end, yet no mainstream consumer distro is able to pull this off..why? because regression testing and driver debugging is a thankless job and too many in control of vital subsystems have the busted shitter problem and throw things out (Pulse, KDE 3, Gnome 2 anyone?) rather than do the thankless job of fixing bugs which then fucks drivers, again its just human nature.
This is why Linux is good on the server, corps pay for somebody to fix the busted shitters, why its good in embedded, because its so thin its more like fixing an outhouse and you really only have to fix it once and never update it, but sucks on the desktop...nobody is paying like Apple and MSFT to fix the busted shitters so they just don't get fixed, its just the way things are.
ACs are never seen so don't bother. Always ready to show SJWs for the racists they are.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 21 2014, @06:21PM
It has been pointed out to Hairyfeet over and over again that RedHat, CentOS, and Scientific Linux have all demonstrated over 9 years of support and meet his challenge, yet he continues to repeat this fiction.
LTS releases are also becoming more common (Debian, currently) and those have 5 years of support.
Now, how often do you see a Windoze install that lasts 5 years without a reinstall?
-1 Troll
-- gewg_
(Score: 2) by Hairyfeet on Sunday September 21 2014, @10:27PM
BTW I purposely lowered my threshhold just this once just so I could show this fucknuts THAT YOU HAVE FAILED SIR by ignoring THE FIRST FUCKING CONDITION of the challenge!
Now what is the first condition of the challenge FOSSie? Would you like me to quote it to you? "Take ANY mainstream (not LTS, because even Ubuntu advises against mainstream users using LTS) from FIVE years ago, this simulates a 5 year typical lifecycle. This BTW is less than HALF a windows support cycle, so I'm cutting linux a break." Are you so fucking retarded you don't know what the word mainstream means? It does NOT mean "a development framework for cloud providers, the hosting community, and scientific data processing" which is taken from the CentOS website it does NOT mean "a continuing effort to support scientific research by providing a reliable computing platform. which is from SciLinux about page, and it does NOT mean an OS that costs $500+ that is focused on,m and I quote "We believe open, hybrid technology is the future of IT. " because yes fuckwad, the average user of desktop and laptop computers is building hybrid cloud server solutions or doing research for CERN...are you REALLY that fucking stupid? Or has your God [youtube.com] failed you SO FUCKING BADLY that the only way you can sleep at night is to delude yourself by pretending that OSes built for CERN and Hybid Cloud computing are normal everyday desktops? Are you REALLY that insane?
So why don't you step up to the plate, take Any of the top distros on these [efytimes.com] lists [makeuseof.com] of the top MAINSTREAM distros and take the challenge? Are you afraid that you will fail? BTW the lists that had RH on them, guess what its listed as? The best enterprise server [linux.com] because those billions of desktops and laptops aren't being used for desktop tasks, nope, because inside every desktop server is a corporate IT administrator, just begging to join the circle of the loon [tmrepository.com] which you so amply illustrate by trying to claim that a HPC built for CERN is a suitable fucking desktop....BTW where is the second half, the proof that all including wireless was functional after 5 years worth of updates? Oh yeah you forgot to mention the wireless and sound FAILED just like it did for those that tried to replicate your supposed "success" didn't you?
If anybody wonders why I call 'em FOSSies here ya go, like Moonies and Scientology they are able to completely ignore reality and delude themselves to insane levels to justify their religion, no matter how much reality cockslaps them in the face.
ACs are never seen so don't bother. Always ready to show SJWs for the racists they are.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 21 2014, @11:13PM
RedHat isn't mainstream?
You'd be comical if you weren't so pathetic.
Mint has gone to all-LTS releases; "not recommended" is way off the mark.
We'll see how it goes with Debian's LTS efforts as the years go by.
I'd put Debian's reputation for quality up against Redmond's any day.
...and again, in my observations, a Windoze install that lasts 5 years without a reinstall is the exception.
Just quit trolling.
-- gewg_
(Score: 1) by tftp on Sunday September 21 2014, @07:47PM
If you remember, Microsoft under BG was not interested in fixing security bugs until the situation got so bad that it started threatening their business. Only then they allocated people, established a plan, and made a client to download updates. (At first it was just an ActiveX control for IE.)
As Linux developers have no such threat to their wellbeing, they cannot be forced into this activity. They can only do that voluntarily. But some of these bugs are hard to duplicate; some require buying special hardware that triggers the problem. I spent more than a week on some bugs. I'm tracing a bug right now that is in part in FPGA, in part in the PCB, and in part in firmware (interaction of all three causes problems on physical level.) This stuff is expensive and boring. If the developer is not motivated, he won't be doing this. In for-pay world, for example, the customer of Quicken pays the company to enter and code and verify huge tax tables and calculations that no sane F/OSS developer would even want to touch. It's a work for ten techs, not for one highly educated person. One person simply cannot do it well in any reasonable time. Who would want a F/OSS tax planning s/w if it sometimes produces wrong answers?
(Score: 2) by Hairyfeet on Sunday September 21 2014, @10:01PM
Actually that is incorrect, you see BG like a lot of nerds built a tool for a task and then didn't understand why anybody was using it for something else. Remember BG thought the net was "a fad" and folks would quickly grow tired of messing with it for anything more complex than weather and celeb gossip (which is why they bought WebTV) so IE was designed for the INTRAnet not the INTERnet which is why ActiveX was so heavily pushed back in the day. If you look at IE and ActiveX as INTRAnet technology? Its fucking brilliant, it makes even the most complex networked program simple as hell (which is why so many corps hung onto XP for so long) but since BG and co were focused on intranet applications they just didn't see the rise of Internet based malware. Many other companies have had this fault, hell to this very day Mozilla runs their browser with user privileges while Chromium based have been running by default with low rights for almost 7 years now.
As for FOSS I just don't see why so many delude themselves into pretending the busted shitter problem doesn't exist. The last Linux Insider roundtable there were those with a straight face trying to argue that there was zero difference between a server and a desktop, that merely adding a few desktop oriented packages meant Linux was a desktop when again the reality is the busted shitter problem because Linux in the server role? Gets millions thrown at it so naturally the kernel on up is designed to maximize performance in server role. What do we see on the desktop? Just as I outlined, they take a stack built to maximize server performance, just slap a pretty DE and a few desktop apps (because this is easy and fun, hence why you have hundreds of distros with the "Taco Bell" recipe of 'this new distro is (insert Debian/RH/Ubuntu) based with (insert KDE/Gnome/E17/etc) and (insert FF/Chromium) along with all you need for daily tasks (insert Gimp/LO) and there you have it') and think that this is actually an equal to something optimized from the ground up for the desktop role. I remember when Win 7 was in beta they had an interview with the main sound engineer and he gave a 45 minute interview on all the changes to the kernel and sound subsystems they did just to maximize smoothness and minimize jitter...think anybody at Distrowatch is completely reengineering the kernel and sound subsystems to maximize desktop performance? Hell the guy at the kernel level working on desktop performance quit in frustration [digit.in] despite his mods being the most popular by far, simply because if it came down to server or desktop performance he always lost!
At the end of the day people just aren't gonna fix the busted shitters for free, especially when the busted shitters we are talking about would be the equivalent to building a new sewer system over the next decade. This is why Linux has a billion FOSS text editors (those are simple, easy, and fun to write) and last I checked ZERO medical transcription and billing software, why despite ID giving them the engines that made dozens of AAA single player games the only games you see coming from those engines are more Q3 Arena clones, those are easy for a couple guys to bang out in a few months...it ALL comes down to what you can get highly skilled people to do for free and fixing busted shitters? Not one of those tasks!
ACs are never seen so don't bother. Always ready to show SJWs for the racists they are.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 21 2014, @07:01AM
because I dont just think different but because I use different and I am different ... in my countrys border im 1%.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 21 2014, @07:06AM
It takes a massive effort to convert work processes from proprietary, established ways to new ones based on FOSS. Munich - nearly a decade. My work from home setup - two years. And then ... some asshole developer changes the packages that are in every single Linux distro and renders the previously brilliant software useless. Before someone cleverly pipes up and sings "just fork it and make your own", as a business/user I have not got the time to delve into development. I have a job that needs done and these crazy people have broken my tools. Problem is that 10,000 other twits think the change is fantastic and so the new broken version becomes the standard. The move to FOSS was to get away from MS's version of this idiocy, but it spills over. What the heck are the colleges and universities teaching them?!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 21 2014, @08:09AM
Munich - nearly a decade
The autonomous region of Extramedura in Spain:
Converted 80,000 Windoze boxes to Linux in 1 weekend.
Monday morning everybody just picked up where they left off.
Munich did a ridiculous amount of handholding with their personnel; damned Germans and their anal attention to detail.
They also changed the apps and the OS at the same time.
Not advised; do the apps first.
.
convert work processes from proprietary
You have no one to blame but yourself.
*You* allowed yourself to get locked into purposely-incompatible stuff.
.
some asshole developer changes the packages
Static linking, dude. Fat binaries. This isn't rocket surgery.
There are guys at at PortableApps that figured out how to do Windoze apps without the Windoze Registry.
It's even easier to have Just-Works-eternally stuff when everything is open.
-- gewg_
(Score: 2) by TGV on Monday September 22 2014, @09:22AM
> Static linking, dude. Fat binaries. This isn't rocket surgery.
You really are part of the problem. It's that attitude which will make sure that Linux never gets further.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 21 2014, @11:42AM
Dunno... but without the little piece of paper they give you when you jump through all their hoops, you stand little chance of getting a job...
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Sunday September 21 2014, @07:26PM
Sometimes that's the right answer. Other times the answer is that the software the government approves for the job run on MSWind. That keeps many doctors, e.g., locked onto MSWind and not even considering alternatives.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 22 2014, @08:58PM
It takes a massive effort to convert work processes from proprietary, established ways to new ones based on FOSS. Munich - nearly a decade. My work from home setup - two years.
Munich didn't take 10 years. They just had a phase-in type of a setup. As for you, two years? Why would you spend $100k on moving stuff then? Or maybe it was not quite 2 years?
some asshole developer changes the packages that are in every single Linux distro and renders the previously brilliant software useless.
You probably should have specified the change that "asshole developers" f'ed up in what software. Otherwise, it's just sour grapes. Commercial software get f'ed up plenty of times too. Old versions replaced by new ones, features changed and removed. That's not specific to proprietary or individual.
As for idea of "fork it", yes, you can fork it. And then you can keep using that old version for as long as you want without any further changes. OSS, if you want to have your own changes made and have to pay someone, may not be cheaper than non-OSS software. But, with OSS, you have that option of making changes.
The move to FOSS was to get away from MS's version of this idiocy, but it spills over. What the heck are the colleges and universities teaching them?!
Well, if you believe that software developers (or anything else) comes out of "universities teaching them", you probably don't deal with anyone graduating from a university. Someone out of university knows very little in comparison to someone that has 10+ years experience doing the job. And since most FOSS are hobbies, or done as "summer project" or something like that, you get what you get.
There are other FOSS that are heavily used by industry and are rock solid. These get support directly or indirectly by experienced individuals. But this is something you are probably not bitching about. Some example here would be Linux kernel, PostgreSQL, MySQL, Qt, GCC, clang, java, Apache related stuff, and other developer tools. On there other hand, plenty of half-assed projects get packaged too. Or things that are just pet projects and end up unmaintained.
PS. You can install Apache OpenOffice from their website, if that is your grumble. You don't have to use LibreOffice or whatever is providing by some distribution. Windows doesn't even have a distribution and people live with it.
(Score: 3, Funny) by wonkey_monkey on Sunday September 21 2014, @09:32AM
wonkeymonkey: Who are you, and why do you think being a dick is going to get people on your side?
I'm going to ask who these mythical people are who are insisting on using closed source software. Are you sure they aren't instead insisting on using the most reliable, useful software for their needs, which in some cases does have to be closed source?
And what, exactly, is so funny about that? Plenty of people pay for support on open-source software.
There's also "act like a condescending douche and people will treat you like a condescending douche."
systemd is Roko's Basilisk
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Sunday September 21 2014, @11:07AM
Um, wonkeymonkey, remember we had that little chat about how throwing your feces was not really appropriate behavior? Remember that you asked me to remind you, if ever you should forget? Well, you are doing it now. Please stop. You are embarrassing Solyent News.
(Score: 2) by wonkey_monkey on Sunday September 21 2014, @12:12PM
No, funnily enough I don't remember it. I think you might have made it up to justify a sanctimoniously belittling and off-topic post.
a) who put you in charge of what "Soylent News" thinks?
b) why would anyone believe that Soylent News sanctions the views I express anyway? SN has no reason to feel embarrassed, and I don't feel embarrassed. If you think I should feel embarrassed, tell me why.
If you actually want to discuss something I've said like an adult, go ahead, but if all you want to do post snide, irrelevant replies in the hope of getting a +1 Ooh, Snap!... well, go ahead and do that too. That's why we have Moderation.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Sunday September 21 2014, @07:07PM
Yeah, I thought you didn't remember, but I did promise to remind you, and now my work here is done.
But oh, since you ask:
If you think I should feel embarrassed, tell me why.
Seriously, dude! You do not know who Jon "maddog" Hall is? Wow! Just Wow.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Monday September 22 2014, @05:33AM
"they might have gotten much sooner in the Free Software community" *is* "talk[ing] about the benefits of free software".
"being able to directly interact with the developers through forums and mailing lists" *is* "talk[ing] about the benefits of free software".
"I am never again going to tell people why they should be using Free Software" was a lie.
He may think it's just rhetoric, but it's still using a lie as a rhetorical device. Why does he think he can lie in the name of FOSS software? Do you suddently get a lying licence when you reach a certain age? Does he think I, and others who care passionately about FOSS, want liars representing the community?
This is his style. Almost everything of sufficient length he writes I take some issue with. (Yes, NTS fallacy.) People aren't critical enough.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Monday September 22 2014, @08:45AM
Well, evidently you are beyond intervention. I tried. I hope you do not try the same strategy against ESR, or Stallman hisself. Lying about liars is still lying, as I trust you know, and it is the human equivalent of flinging your feces. What part of the Free Software community are you? What code have you written that has been included in the kernel, or in any relevant distro? But then again, I promised wonkeymonkey, not you, FatPhil, and so we have not connection, no basis of dispute, no ground for criticism, Some people are not critical enough, and some are FatPhil. Nothing personal. I don't want to be too critical of your total lack of ground on this, as opposed to someone like Jon "maddog" Hall. Next you will be telling us that Knuth is overrated, Hawking is full of it, and Einstein was a fraud. OK, we get it. Thank you for your insight, as pathetic as it was.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Monday September 22 2014, @07:47PM
Sure that's a few years back now, and I'm less into kernel work now, and, to be honest, I don't think a patch of mine has been sent to the LKML for at least 5 days:
http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ports.ppc.embedded/73627
I haven't done anything *but* open source development as a profession for about 5 years.
And your credentials were?
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Tuesday September 23 2014, @02:40AM
And your credentials were?
Ha ha! I am nobody. Or I am Aristarchus of Samos, maybe you have heard of my helio-centric model of the cosmos? No? See what happens when you do not have free software! Darn Ptolemys and the Catholic Church kept us using the wrong celestial system for centuries!! Well, that is Windows for you!
Mostly, however, I am just someone who made a promise to wonkeymonkey. N900, huh? I guess I will have to hold you in higher regard. Still don't understand why you would accuse maddog of lying.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Tuesday September 23 2014, @09:17PM
I quoted the precise phrases where he contradicts himself in my earlier post.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by umafuckitt on Sunday September 21 2014, @10:46AM
Maybe it's easier to have this stance if you're a technical user, but personally I don't give a shit if the software is FOSS or closed source. I use what works for me and what gets the job done quickly. For instance, I've now moved from Emacs to Sublime Tex, because I find it suits me better and the licensing model is very reasonable. Moving up in price, I do most of my my technical work in MATLAB. I've tried twice switching to Python/numpy/scipy, but it hasn't worked out for me so I've given up. On the other hand, I prefer R (FOSS) for fitting and exploring linear models. MATLAB has historically been crappy for mixed-effects stats models (although it's slowly getting better). For simple hardware control I quite like throwing something together with an Arduino, Teensy, with FOSS libraries, and talking to it via a serial terminal or logging data to a text file, etc. For complex stuff I use NI hardware and with MATLAB or, increasingly, LabVIEW [shudders]. If possible, I write my documents in Latex. If not I use either LibreOffice or, if that fails, some version of Word. Everything ends up hanging together just fine in the end.
(Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Sunday September 21 2014, @12:30PM
Lot of people firmly believe in the dogma "you get what you pay for".
Convincing them that FOSS really is better is tough. They practice confirmation bias when they seize on any detail in which FOSS is not better.
To get anywhere, they have to be shown that we're talking about software, not physical widgets. And show them the FOSS model, not the results so much. Don't waste time pointing out all the ways Firefox is better than IE. Point out that software only has to be written once. Software is not made on a production line. You can hire any competent programmer to make fixes and improvements, and every one can be quickly spread and adopted. But if the software is proprietary, and the source is locked up, then only the owners can work on it, with the consequence that fixes and improvements simply cannot happen as often or as quickly.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 21 2014, @12:44PM
You mean, like Firefox?
(Score: 1) by pnkwarhall on Sunday September 21 2014, @06:02PM
**oh, snap!**
Lift Yr Skinny Fists Like Antennas to Heaven
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 21 2014, @06:33PM
Pale Moon is popular and becoming well known.
SeaMonkey is another example of a Mozilla fork that can replace Firefox.
Picking an example that already has counter-examples wasn't the most powerful of arguments.
-- gewg_
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Monday September 22 2014, @01:27PM
About 15 years ago in my FOSS journey, I evangelized for FOSS. I tried every approach and tone and argument I could. They were the heydays of RMS and ESR and /. was always abuzz with the discussion, so I borrowed ideas from other FOSS advocates, too. Then after several years of getting nowhere I woke up one day and decided that using FOSS gives me a competitive advantage, and it's a very good thing that most of the rest of the world doesn't. Now I realize that I would actually like for this state of affairs to continue, because it means that advantage continues to help me in my quest to make the world a better place.
So let's not waste energy, my fellow FOSS believers, on trying to convert the heathen. Let's instead make FOSS ever better and brighter so that it may buoy us higher.
Washington DC delenda est.