from the well,-that's-certainly-different dept.
AlterNet reports
Forget plastic bag bans. Berlin is now home to a supermarket that's gotten rid [of all] disposable packaging. Original Unverpackt ("Original Unpackaged") [Google translation], which opened Saturday, is more of a shop, to be exact, but its 350-some products -- including from fruits, vegetables, dry grains and pourable liquids like yogurt, lotion and shampoo -- are dispensed into refillable containers. (Some liquids come in bottles with deposits on them, which is already standard in Germany).
The shop, backed by crowdfunding, is a creative experiment in a new kind of shopping, one that takes the ethics of stores like Whole Foods to a new level. It sells mostly organic products, each of which is labeled with its country of origin, and eschews brand names. Sara Wolf and Milena Glimbovski, the duo behind the project, were driven by the slogan[1] "Let's be real, try something impossible."
It remains to be seen if the store's scalable -- and whether it will catch on with the public. One "group of Germans" interviewed by NPR Berlin[2] complained that the store "looks too pretty and nice, and too bourgeois"; CityLab characterized such sentiments as reflecting a sense that "living a supposedly pared-down, less wasteful life is essentially a lifestyle hobby for people with enough spare cash to play at green dress-up." But while many of the products offered, perhaps because they're organic, tend to skew toward the pricier end of things, others are equivalent or cheaper than standard supermarket fare, one German newspaper reports [Google translation]. And a virtue of the fill-your-own-container model is that customers can purchase ingredients in exact amounts, meaning they don't have to overspend for food they don't need.
(Score: 1) by Username on Monday September 22 2014, @12:29AM
I bet they have specials on chicken with a side of typhoid.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 22 2014, @12:57AM
In the olden days, a country squire would age his pheasants for weeks before they were deemed fit for consumption.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by silverly on Monday September 22 2014, @12:35AM
So we as a consumer don't need just get a box of $foodstuffs. But we fill a container of $foodstuffs? Thats not too bad, i can stock up on heaps of almonds.
But my only question is why stop there. Why not just let the people grab their $foodstuffs directly from the dirt!
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 22 2014, @12:37AM
Mostly likely if we had to go from farm to farm, the cost in gas alone would outweigh the benefits.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 22 2014, @01:06AM
I used to live close to a co-op that was all bulk food -- bring your own containers or bags. Some members brought in used paper bags (perhaps originally from supermarkets) that were available if you happened to forget your own.
(Score: 2) by Aiwendil on Monday September 22 2014, @10:59AM
Here in sweden we have (or had? havn't seen it in a while) a thing called "självplock" (self-pick) which is pretty much that, it was very popular for strawberries (to be honest I've only seen it for berries, apples and peaches)..
The method was that you came with a couple of buckets, they weighed and tagged the buckets, assigned you a stretch where you were allowed to pick, and when you where done you went to the register with your buckets and got them weighed (and subtracted the bucket weight) and payed for the produce.
(Score: 1) by silverly on Monday September 22 2014, @12:00PM
Oh wow, that sounds pretty awesome.
Honestly, all funnies aside having stuff unpackaged and allowing the consumer self pick is the way to go.
Anything that keeps the food fresh and cutting out the middle man is good in my eyes. I like being able to control how much i consume and when and of what.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Monday September 22 2014, @12:34PM
Locally we have those and they simply charge volumetric. An empty labeled basket costs $X.YY and they don't care if you put in one raspberry or overflow it or fill it with rocks after they've made the sale. Lowers their labor cost, if nothing else.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 22 2014, @03:26PM
Called "you-pick" in the US. Also for fruits and berries mostly, but there are places you can pay to go shoot an elk for your freezer.
(Score: 2) by urza9814 on Monday September 22 2014, @05:08PM
Lots of places do that in the US too. Of course you're not gonna see it if you live in NYC or something, but drive down any rural highway and you'll see one every few miles. Been maybe ten years since I've been down those roads, but I clearly remember at least three on the route we used to take to my grandparents house in Pittsburgh -- a distance of about 60 miles. These days I'm living in Providence so there's not so much of that. Although I do know of three different farmers markets within ten miles of my apartment, so that's good too...
(Score: 2) by el_oscuro on Tuesday September 23 2014, @01:09AM
In Virginia, Delaware, and Maryland, you still see them every 10 miles or so.
SoylentNews is Bacon! [nueskes.com]
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Monday September 22 2014, @01:12PM
There are pick you own farms all over the USA. The problem is they are usually out in remote rural areas and driving to them is not practical and inefficient. Apple picking farms are the prime example and many feature other fruits and berries or sell local produce from other farms (fresh honey too!). But most of the people who go to these farms are city folk such as myself and the drive is usually an hour or more. So in the end it is more efficient to go to a farmers market where a single truck brings in all the goods for local distribution. Go to a farmers market or locally sourced food co-op instead.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 22 2014, @12:43AM
...welcome our new German overlords!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 22 2014, @01:01AM
East Germany had by far the best per economy per capita in the eastern Bloc; others were lagging behind the standards of Western Europe. Some officials back in Moscow whispered, "Hey, maybe Karl Marx's system works best for Germans..." Meaning that they have, in some sense, better citizens and workers. But take that system elsewhere and it might not work so well.
(Score: 2) by Nerdfest on Monday September 22 2014, @01:57AM
I think Germany does well because of a good balance between rewarding good work and fair social and economic policies. It seems to result in and healthy, productive workforce. There seems to be a good work ethic. Of course, I'm not an economist.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 22 2014, @02:04AM
Think of the German World Cup team. Were they the best athletes, have the most specimens? I'm not much of a soccer (or futbol) fan, but my guess from the little that I did watch is that the answer is no. They had the most discipline, both as players working on their own games and as players working to be cohesive as a team. That's what made them the best, this time around.
(Score: 2) by buswolley on Monday September 22 2014, @01:08AM
No brand names? I understand not taking Kellog's or whatever, but being able to identify the producer of a good seems like a good thing, not a bad thing.
subicular junctures
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 22 2014, @04:07AM
How is putting your trust in some faceless corporation half a world away better than trusting your local grocer?
...and you might rethink your statement if you knew more about that Kellogg dude. [wikipedia.org]
Dr. John Harvey Kellogg opened a sanitarium in Battle Creek, Michigan, where he practiced his unusual methods for maintaining health, including colonic irrigation, electrical stimulus and sexual abstinence, vegetarianism, and physical exercise.
-- gewg_
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday September 22 2014, @11:59AM
Except the abstinence (his views were quite extreme [wikipedia.org]), I don't see something that comparing with what one can see today:
- colonic irrigation - you reckon is weirder than faecal transplant [wikipedia.org]? The way I read, he used yogurt [wikipedia.org] as a medium for what he found as beneficial gut flora.
- electrical stimulus - see transcranial electric/magnetic simulation [sciencedaily.com]
- vegetarianism - I have nothing to object provided that we agree that pork and beef are some extraordinary tasty vegetables
- physical exercise - yes, is healthy, the only problem I have with it is that it steals to much time from the hard work of being a couch potato.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by EvilJim on Monday September 22 2014, @10:16PM
ha! over here Kellogg's and Sanitarium are competitors, Sanitarium is owned by the mormons. imagine naming your company after something as horrible as a sanitarium... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanitarium_Health_and_Wellbeing_Company [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 1) by tftp on Monday September 22 2014, @01:22AM
All these containers need thorough washing before they can be refilled. How many milk bottles do you know that support such washing without using abrasives, special brushes, and dangerous liquids? How would one wash a container at home? How would one be sure that the container is clean? Those people were born after the industrial revolution in food processing, and they simply don't know what happens after eating contaminated food.
This will lead to increase in food poisoning, but will save 0.5g of biodegradeable plastic that otherwise could be used to make a bag. But if someone is willing to risk his own health, and health of their family, in order to save a bit of energy, they ought to be free to do so.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 22 2014, @01:39AM
Some years back, we bought raw milk from an organic farm (before it was available packaged) in USA. We washed our own half gallon glass bottles, bought two or three gallons/week which were filled directly by the farmer from his metal container (he sterilized with steam). Must have done this for 10-15 years for a family of five and had zero problems. The milk tasted great, perhaps because it was several days fresher than anything in a supermarket?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by darkfeline on Monday September 22 2014, @01:49AM
You seem to have some horribly twisted conceptions of food poisoning and contamination. You do not need "abrasives, special brushes, and dangerous liquids". As long as you aren't shitting in your drinking water and deliberately letting things get dirty, there is absolutely no need for industrial grade disinfection. In fact, that's a really good way to breed a population that's allergic to damn well everything.
Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Monday September 22 2014, @02:04AM
Save 1 US$ on packaging. Pay up 1000 US$ for a visit to the emergency room at the hospital. Environmental savings, negative.
I wouldn't worry about the cleanliness of my own stuff. The big problem is that not all people have a sense of hygiene!
"Clean" your fingers with your mouth and then "clean" the tap of whatever fluid that you handle? or drinking by putting the tap end into the mouth. Or the simple scenarios of using fingers that has touched public environment with coliform bacteria (ass) and flue viruses that then ends up on your vegetables etc. Or just sneezing in the shop, you think they will discard their products? nope, they continue to sell it.
So packaging is bad. But there's a reason why it's used..
Can someone explain this "Some liquids come in bottles with deposits on them, which is already standard in German". Is there some kind of standard bottle system in Germany? Anyone that uses fluid containers of metal should be aware of the use of Bis phenol A in those.
Some people has taken the raw food concept to the extreme by making burgers with raw meat. It works with farms that pay good attention to hygiene and have good luck. But the risk for serious infections that can screw you up is then present.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 22 2014, @03:21AM
If it's anything like here in the Netherlands, it just means that any plastic bottle >1 liter has an extra charge (say 25 cents), which you get back by returning the bottle, which will then be recycled.
(Score: 2) by Magic Oddball on Monday September 22 2014, @08:21AM
Can someone explain this "Some liquids come in bottles with deposits on them, which is already standard in German".
That's probably one of the recycling setups where the customer pays a little extra per recyclable container, then can get the money back if they turn in the clean, empty container to a recycling center later on. I don't know how many other nations have it set up that way, but Wikipedia says there's eleven American states that have similar schemes [wikipedia.org]; in California where I live, for example, it's 5¢ for eligible containers under 24 ounces and 10¢ for anything larger.
(Score: 1) by jcm on Monday September 22 2014, @10:22AM
I don't know how many other nations have it set up that way
In France, there was a similar system a lot of years ago. It was called "consigne".
We bought glass bottles filled with liquids.
When we returned the glass bottles, we got some money back.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Monday September 22 2014, @06:41PM
Many drink containers have the list of states printed in tiny characters on a side, and sometimes the amount.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 22 2014, @02:40AM
We wash the dishes and use the same serial bowls over and over. We wash our cups and plates and pots and pans and reuse them. We use relatively harmless dish soap. It seems to work quite well. So now this is just one (or a few) more item(s) to wash.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Monday September 22 2014, @02:54AM
How do you know it works?
(Score: 2, Funny) by RedGreen on Monday September 22 2014, @03:47AM
Not getting sick and dying probably clued him in firstly, then the next 1000s of plus times nothing happened either so you get to trust you will get the same result every time you do it.
"I modded down, down, down, and the flames went higher." -- Sven Olsen
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Tuesday September 23 2014, @01:45AM
They're serial bowls! They have been used serially, one after another, for a long time! So of course they work! Some even work with cereal.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 22 2014, @07:54AM
How many milk bottles? My son used to use four simple plastic bottles since when he was an infant and occasionally until today (he's now six). We never used any serious abrasives to clean them other than those that come with a household sponge, I doubt you'd consider the little bottle brushes I used as anything special since you can buy a similar one at any supermarket for less than a dollar, and I don't think ordinary dishwashing soap qualifies as a dangerous liquid. My son's still very much alive and healthy. The same is true of all the plates and pans in my household. I don't think I've ever gotten food poisoning in my life, much less from eating food prepared in my own kitchen by my own hands. You overstate the need for industrial-strength disinfection you allude to. Just wash the same containers you bring to the supermarket just like everything else you use in your household.
Frankly, I think it would be great if more supermarkets did the same. I see discarded packaging make up an appallingly large fraction of my household's waste.
(Score: 2) by zafiro17 on Monday September 22 2014, @11:29AM
All the hate here makes me think SN is full of nerds who have been cozily lulled to sleep by the American agro-industrial marketing industry that has convinced you a disposable lifestyle is essential for your health and safety. There's room for innovation here, and leave it to the industrious and scientifically-inclined Germans to look into it.
I might not want to buy yoghurt in bulk, and I wand my chickens wrapped in something,, but there's no reason a lot of other things have to come in so much packaging. So much American food comes in layers and layers of unitizing packaging, all plastic. It's unsustainable, it leads to higher costs, and really shortsighted.
I agree healthy, organic, and ecologically-minded things remain somewhat of a luxury good, but it doesn't have to be that way. This is the way we all cooked and ate, once upon a time.
More science, less marketing, please! Also, more German bacon ... mmmm.
Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis - Jack Handey
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Monday September 22 2014, @01:01PM
I was raised by grandparents who grew up in the Great Depression; they always kept a large garden they used to grow nearly all their own produce, and we were dragooned even as small children to tend it. They taught us how to can, dry, and pickle anything we couldn't eat fresh. Since then I moved to the big city and live in an apartment with no yard, so those skills have fallen into disuse.
But I am starting to see concepts like urban gardening [urbanfarming.org], Local Dirt [localdirt.com], and 3Dponics [makerfaire.com] pop up and have begun thinking it might be possible for even apartment dwellers to grow some of their own produce. During the world wars when they had rationing Victory gardens were common, but those were really only practical if you had outdoor space to do it. Now with hydroponics, microcontrollers, and the Internet of Things you could really geek out on extreme locavorism. It has the lowest of all possible carbon footprints, you know exactly where the produce has been and what went into it, and as a bonus it usually tastes much, much better than stuff that gets picked to ship long before it's ripe. Prime example: tomatoes. Ones you get in the store are flavorless. Ones you grow yourself have amazing sweetness and complexity.
Combine it with aquaculture to make aquaponics [backyardaquaponics.com], and might even be able to supply some of your own protein.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Monday September 22 2014, @12:49PM
There is an eternal wheel in business that rotates where everything old is new again. Its not just in IT technology or software development fads, its economy wide.
First example I can think of is I'm just barely old enough to have participated in the glass bottle return economy. So you'd buy an (8-pack?) of coca cola in glass bottles made with real sugar (this is before nationwide consumption of gallons of corn syrup per year was even a gleem in some ChemEng's eye) and you'd pay like a buck (I don't remember exactly) and then you'd drink it and return the empties in their cardboard carrier for about a quarter (and traditionally you'd buy a pack of filled bottles for a buck for a net 75 cents at all subsequent transactions). I don't remember the absolute amount of money but for a grade school kid we're talking about "some pocket change" for the entire transaction. The used glass bottles went thru the same sterilization process new bottles went thru. From memory I can't tell if the soft drink industry transitioned to corn syrup first or transitioned to plastic non-returnable bottles first, but it was almost the same time so it doesn't matter. Perhaps related somehow.
The next example I can think of is "bulk food" became a fad in lets say the very late 70s or early 80s. So you'd shovel sugar into a bag from a barrel with a scoup that some other kid probably licked and pawed all over. This is less unsanitary than you'd think in that during that rotation of the wheel, most of the stuff was pretty much naturally anti-bacterial anti-fungal anti-everything. Nothing can live in sugar crystals or pure undiluted honey or salt crystals. Flour is pushing the limit but with some care they didn't get bugs in it, somehow (pesticides?) Sounds like this turn of the wheel has crazy ideas like raw chicken, so good luck with that. Self serve bulk food died out for a few decades but its back at the health food stores today. Non-self serve never died out and we call it a "deli" in a supermarket and you can ask someone to repack any mass you'd desire of bulk packed potatoe salad into little plastic tubs for you. None of it made on site of course and none of it fresh (I worked in a supermarket as a kid, I know these things). I never understood how it worked economically to pay a dude minimum wage to pack by hand vs a centralized operation with machines doing the packing. Sometimes supermarkets are weird. At least this makes sense with the meat department where all cuts of meat are not exactly identical.