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posted by n1 on Thursday September 25 2014, @06:27PM   Printer-friendly
from the amateurs,-we're-working-on-6G dept.

El Reg reports:

Vendors are generally delighted to raise their profile by pretending to have "5G" systems just around the corner, but it was a CTO from Alcatel-Lucent who threw a welcome bucket of cold water over the 5G hype at last week’s CTIA Super Mobility Week conference in Las Vegas.

Michael Peeters, the company’s wireless CTO, told the conference’s Towers & Small Cell Summit stream that the current talk about 5G development was “ridiculous” because it was focused on the old issues of technologies to increase capacity and bandwidth, whereas the real revolution would come from an architecture which was open, federated and “invisible”.

He made a very good point – vendors and operators are largely staying within their comfort zones, thinking of 5G as an extension to 4G, with or without a brand new air interface, and focusing on extending current technologies, such as MIMO antenna arrays, rather than on a completely new approach.

I think he has raised very valid points. Do you people agree with this analysis?

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  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 25 2014, @07:07PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 25 2014, @07:07PM (#98369)

    its the ridiculously low data caps that are imposed on us.

    fix that before making a new standard that just makes our ancient data limits even easier to blow through in an hour.

  • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Entropy on Thursday September 25 2014, @07:27PM

    by Entropy (4228) on Thursday September 25 2014, @07:27PM (#98376)

    1. Idiotic data caps. 1gig? 2gigs? Are you joking? This is the same thing they tried with a 0.10$/text message charge. It will invariably go back to all you can drink data plans. What possible use do I have for higher speeds with such a silly cap?

    2. We never even got close to 4G. 4G specifications(from wikipedia) vary between 100Mb/s(trains, etc.) and 1Gb/s (pedestrian). 4G-LTE(et all) are a severely cut down imitation of such services. It's kind of silly to try to leapfrog to 5G, unless it's some silly plan to deny unlimited data rates under 5G.

    • (Score: 2) by Alfred on Thursday September 25 2014, @07:48PM

      by Alfred (4006) on Thursday September 25 2014, @07:48PM (#98379) Journal

      1. They want you to use up your data faster so they can hit you with overage charges, which is like free money to them.

      2. Yes, they are very silly. They should be working on hoverboards or something more practical.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by SrLnclt on Thursday September 25 2014, @07:55PM

      by SrLnclt (1473) on Thursday September 25 2014, @07:55PM (#98384)

      The whole cell phone industry has always been silly. In the beginning you could create a cell phone company, and charge users thru the nose for long distance and/or roaming. After a few years people complain too much about roaming, so you create a plan that includes nationwide long distance and no roaming - just charging an arm and a leg for going past minute caps. After a while people complain about minute caps and ridiculous overages - so you make unlimited minute plans or things like rollover minutes, making minute counting virtually obsolete - instead you charge $0.10-$0.20 per text message. Eventually people realize this is a scam charging so much for a few bytes of data, and complaints abound about kids rack up hundreds of dollars in bills, so you make an unlimited messaging plan - except now you have data plans with caps and can charge everyone for data overages.

      Every few years (which of course lines up to every time or two you get a new phone and/or switch carriers), the boogie man from you previous plan is no longer an issue, but there is a new gotcha in all the cell phone plans. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

      • (Score: 3, Interesting) by tathra on Thursday September 25 2014, @08:47PM

        by tathra (3367) on Thursday September 25 2014, @08:47PM (#98400)

        and everybody playing that game is an idiot. for at least the past 4-5 years, if not longer, i've gotten unlimited everything (voice, texts, and data at 4G) for $40/mo (with a smartphone; its $35/mo with a dumbphone) through Boost Mobile. the last time i used a different carrier (Verizon), i paid more than twice as much for the privilege of having shitty service (both coverage and customer service) and all kinds of arbitrary limits and extra costs & fees, and had to pay an extra $10/mo just for unlimited texts (which was a bitch to find, and they stopped letting new people get it once too many people found out it was an option).

        seriously, stop buying services from these scam artists. there are superior options, not just in price but in service and quality too.

        • (Score: 1) by Entropy on Thursday September 25 2014, @09:51PM

          by Entropy (4228) on Thursday September 25 2014, @09:51PM (#98414)

          How's the reception? Though I have no particular love for Verizon I originally switched to them after AT&T failed on numerous occasions to have reception in many, many areas I was in. I was forever missing calls and opportunities. Though Verizon is way more than double what you may(more like triple!) I do in theory have unlimited everything..(maybe my minutes are limited to 5,000, not sure) the new plans are abysmal though.

          I love how everytime I call them they want to "help" me save $10/month by switching to a terrible data plan.

          • (Score: 2) by tathra on Thursday September 25 2014, @10:08PM

            by tathra (3367) on Thursday September 25 2014, @10:08PM (#98419)

            i don't talk on the phone much (mostly rely on texts), but i've never really had any problems. they dont have coverage everywhere, but they seem to have most major cities [boostmobile.com] covered.

            back in may i got a text saying if you go over 2.5 gb data, you're dropped to 2G speeds for the rest of that month's billing cycle, but i'm pretty sure there's no overage fees (i've never gone over that limit). its pay as you go too, so you don't have to worry about getting stuck in shitty 2 year contracts or anything.

          • (Score: 1) by schad on Friday September 26 2014, @12:22PM

            by schad (2398) on Friday September 26 2014, @12:22PM (#98551)

            Boost Mobile is owned by Sprint and uses their network. Asking about or researching Sprint might yield better results. (That is, you've probably got at least one friend or coworker who uses Sprint, but you may not know anybody who uses Boost Mobile.) You should be able to roam on Verizon in the event of emergencies, which may or may not be enough to meet your requirements.

            If you like the idea of Boost but their coverage in your area is poor, you can also check out T-Mobile. Their equivalent plan is $50/mo. They appear to have a genuinely-unlimited plan now for $80/mo (lower plans will eventually throttle your data to EDGE speeds). They keep giving me free upgrades. I think I get 500MB/month for free on every device with a TMo SIM, even if I don't have a current plan.

          • (Score: 2) by urza9814 on Friday September 26 2014, @02:44PM

            by urza9814 (3954) on Friday September 26 2014, @02:44PM (#98577) Journal

            I switched from Verizon to Credo Mobile (runs on Sprint) and have unlimited data and texting. 700 minutes, but hell my usage is usually around 50, so I couldn't care less about that. I get better service with them than I ever did with Verizon -- my entire office building is a dead zone for Verizon, but I've got full bars and 3G data at least with Sprint. At home I get 4G at 15+mbps.

            My parents are a few states away and recently switched to Ting (also uses Sprint) -- they've had no issues with reception either, and are consistently paying under $30/month for two smartphones. No unlimited plans though with Ting -- they're a no-contract provider, but they have a bit of a unique billing system -- $6 per phone, then buckets like $3 for 1-100MB of data, $12 for up to 500MB, $19 for up to 1GB, etc...

            • (Score: 2) by urza9814 on Friday September 26 2014, @02:47PM

              by urza9814 (3954) on Friday September 26 2014, @02:47PM (#98579) Journal

              Oh, I should add that when I say I have unlimited data, I mean truly unlimited. I've used more than 10GB of data in a single week before, and have never had my data speeds throttled.

              Usually my data usage is quite a bit lower, but it's nice to know I can tether my whole freakin' house to the thing if I need to and it won't be an issue :)

        • (Score: 2) by Hairyfeet on Friday September 26 2014, @02:24PM

          by Hairyfeet (75) <{bassbeast1968} {at} {gmail.com}> on Friday September 26 2014, @02:24PM (#98572) Journal

          Not all of us live in an area where Boost actually works, so their $40 plan (which just FYI is no better than Net10 as their "unlimited" is only 2GB, after that you WILL slow down) isn't really useful for most of us. I ended up going with Ting where I only pay for what I actually use and its only been on average $32 a month and that is with the missus gabbing constantly.

          --
          ACs are never seen so don't bother. Always ready to show SJWs for the racists they are.
          • (Score: 2) by tathra on Friday September 26 2014, @05:27PM

            by tathra (3367) on Friday September 26 2014, @05:27PM (#98640)

            a slowdown is significantly preferable to, say what Verizon charges [verizonwireless.com], which is an extra $30 on top of what you're paying for the voice/text package* just for the initial 2gb + $10 for every extra 1gb (which is charged as soon as you're 1kb over your initial data limit).

            * i cant even find how much that costs; last time i used them it was $80 + another $10 for unlimited texts, so just for an equivalent package it'd be $120, assuming you don't actually use that 2gb of data, because then you get hit with overage fees.

            i know boost itself doesnt offer coverage everywhere, and thus isnt an option for everyone (and if they got that big they might get just as bad as verizon/att/etc), but the point is the big carriers are literally ripping people off. people need to stop letting them.

            • (Score: 2) by Hairyfeet on Friday September 26 2014, @08:07PM

              by Hairyfeet (75) <{bassbeast1968} {at} {gmail.com}> on Friday September 26 2014, @08:07PM (#98688) Journal

              And YOU sir need to complain about your carrier likewise lying their asses off because they have "unlimited 4G" as much as I have fairy wings. "Unlimited" data at early dial up speeds is NO bargain, and has nothing to do with how much bandwidth boost has at any given moment, so Boost is likewise jerking you around its just that you personally find the WAY they jerk you around tolerable.

              Personally I'll stick with Ting where I get to decide what I am going to use at 4G and know ahead of time what the rate will be with no overage crap. BTW my bill this month? $32 and that is WITH the $6 phone activation fee INCLUDED, and that is with the missus using the new phone for the whole month as my "worst case scenario" since she practically has a phone glued to her ear at all times. I'm definitely gonna take the $50 credit I get next month for referring a friend to grab me a refurb phone from Ting and cancel her old service, as my phone bill has never been lower!

              --
              ACs are never seen so don't bother. Always ready to show SJWs for the racists they are.
    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 25 2014, @09:43PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 25 2014, @09:43PM (#98412)

      2. We never even got close to 4G. 4G specifications(from wikipedia) vary between 100Mb/s(trains, etc.) and 1Gb/s (pedestrian). 4G-LTE(et all) are a severely cut down imitation of such services. It's kind of silly to try to leapfrog to 5G, unless it's some silly plan to deny unlimited data rates under 5G.

      Indeed. It seems kind of premature to talk about offering 5G when we haven't even got a real genuine 4G yet. I find it refreshingly honest that someone who works for the telcos actually publicly acknowledged this. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he privately gets a pretty severe tongue lashing when he next sees his boss. Meanwhile, we here in the USA are still living with a telecommunications infrastructure rivaled by third world countries. I wish Peeters would have talked about that too, but then that might have been just a little too much truth in the room.

  • (Score: 4, Interesting) by MrGuy on Thursday September 25 2014, @07:32PM

    by MrGuy (1007) on Thursday September 25 2014, @07:32PM (#98377)

    who doesn't realize he's trying to have a conversation with marketing people.

    Companies will start marketing "5G!!" as soon as they have something that's at least plausibly better than what they have. Whether it's truly a new generation of technology is a fairly arbitrary distinction, and frankly "what we set out to do technically" takes a back seat to "what we can make money off of by convincing people to buy new phones or switch service providers."

    While it has some significant changes from 3G technology, LTE (now the de-factor "4G" technology in much of the world) did not and has never provided the bandwidth and connectivity speeds that meet the ITU-defined spec for what "4G" technology would deliver. Telecoms didn't care - they started marketing the technology as "4G" and effectively it was accepted that This Was So.

    5G will be no different. Attempting to impose an arbitrary standard of "what I think 5G should be" on the discussion, no matter how technically correct or accurate it might be, is a fool's errand. 5G will be defined as "a protocol that's different than what's currently deployed and sufficiently faster that we can market it as the Next Big Thing." Expecting otherwise is a mistake.

    • (Score: 2) by Alfred on Thursday September 25 2014, @08:29PM

      by Alfred (4006) on Thursday September 25 2014, @08:29PM (#98396) Journal
      I bet the trade-off is the old business problem of more money this year or more money in several years. When you have pressure to turn out the quarterly earnings report you want bigger numbers right now. When you have time for profits later, then you don't have to sacrifice technical quality now.
      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by tibman on Thursday September 25 2014, @08:38PM

        by tibman (134) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 25 2014, @08:38PM (#98399)

        Which is sad because you can fit a whole research team inside executive level bonuses.

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        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 25 2014, @08:50PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 25 2014, @08:50PM (#98401)

          Which is sad because you can fit a whole research team inside executive level bonuses.

          Yachts, downtown ny condos, and small bungalow in the hamptons dont just buy themselves you know :)

    • (Score: 2) by Kilo110 on Thursday September 25 2014, @08:51PM

      by Kilo110 (2853) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 25 2014, @08:51PM (#98403)

      "Companies will start marketing "5G!!" as soon as they have something that's at least plausibly better than what they have."

      If only they had something to show for it. These days carriers will generation++ for the hell of it. Like att did a couple of years ago.

      http://techland.time.com/2012/03/09/att-iphone-gets-new-4g-icon-but-speed-hasnt-actually-increased/ [time.com]

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 25 2014, @10:23PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 25 2014, @10:23PM (#98422)

      Hurrah for the one lone voice of reason in a den of marketing thieves!
      Marketing always need the next big sales pitch word, whether in reality the technology is there or not.
      Its like i-Devices. They're lovely, but less than one year to obsolescence keeps my cash firmly in my pocket. (i.e. 'marketing' just backfired)
      We actually do not need all these new gadgets, but we are suckers for marketing's lies and are duped into lusting after the next shiny device. If people saw sense the tech companies would quickly 'right-size', along with their income offshoring efforts and stratospheric executive pay.
      Common sense, isn't common...

  • (Score: 1) by Arik on Friday September 26 2014, @03:51PM

    by Arik (4543) on Friday September 26 2014, @03:51PM (#98605) Journal
    Pretending is all these companies are any good at. They are pretending to provide 4g, and pretending to have 5g around the corner. I wonder if what they wind up selling as 5g will finally provide 4g?

    Shakespeare said shoot all the lawyers, but if he lived today he would say get the marketing department even before legal.
    --
    If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?