The National Secular Society reports:
Hundreds of thousands of German tax-payers are leaving their officially designated religions to avoid paying a 'church tax' levy on capital gains.
In 2010 officials estimates that 70% of church revenues come from 'church tax', which has until now been applied directly on top of German citizen's income tax -- where they are members of 'church tax'-collecting denomination.
When registering for a German Tax ID, applicants need to specify if they belong to one of the 'church tax'-collecting denominations. In the case of some nationalities or if they have been baptised, the Finanzamt (federal tax office) will assume an individual's religion and deduct the tax unless they opt-out. The tax takes the form of a levy (typically 9%) of any tax paid.
A range of religious communities benefit from the tax, but the changes predominantly affect Roman Catholics and Protestants as other smaller religious groups choose to collect taxes themselves to save government collection fees.
The 'church tax' premium dates back to the 19th century and has always, officially, also applied to capital gains tax -- but until now this has largely been unenforced as the majority of the 'church tax' comes from payroll deductions. From January the tax will be applied directly by banks on capital gains tax. In preparation for this change, banks have written to their customers to find out their religion. Although official figures are not available, Catholic and Protestant dioceses have reported up to a 50% increase in the numbers of people officially deregistering, in the run up to the changes.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 11 2014, @01:48AM
Huh? The "Churchgoers Decrease In Germany Due To Changes In" title makes no sense!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 11 2014, @02:41AM
FTFS: until now[...]the majority of the 'church tax' [came] from payroll deductions. From January the tax will be applied directly by banks on capital gains tax
The title of the original submission also ended with the word Collection.
The editor chopped that off.
My guess is that landlords and other people who don't have traditional paychecks are now getting close scrutiny from the gov't--as opposed to wage earners (who make their money from labor and who don't belong to the making-money-from-money class)--aka shifting the burden from the Proletariat to the Bourgeoisie.
-- gewg_
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 11 2014, @01:58AM
The reaction of these people makes perfect sense. If being part of something disadvantages you, and you have the ability and willingness to move on, then off you'll go.
It isn't limited to just membership in religious organizations in Germany, of course. We only need to look as far as Debian to see that this is true.
Lots of people have been using Debian for a decade or more. It has worked superbly the entire time. Yet some rotten politics causes systemd to be forced upon these users. They protest, and they fight against it, but they are crushed by these political machinations.
Their only option left is to abandon Debian. They are moving to Slackware, or even FreeBSD.
A once proud and robust distro, Debian is now on its way to the grave. It is losing the most important members and contributors: the sysadmins, the developers, and the powerusers. It cannot survive this, I'm afraid to say.
If the work to integrate systemd goes ahead, I fear that there is no way that Debian can remain a viable, useful operating system.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 11 2014, @02:11AM
lol.
well done ac, well done.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 11 2014, @04:48AM
speak for yourself
(Score: 2) by morgauxo on Saturday October 11 2014, @06:12AM
Totally offtopic but impresive transition. Well done!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 11 2014, @12:05PM
I don't think it's off-topic. It is the same phenomenon in both cases. It's always useful and on topic to compare and contrast related cases and situations.
(Score: 2) by velex on Saturday October 11 2014, @02:17PM
I would like to join the others in congratulating you. This is a truly impressive troll! I never would have figured out how to work systemd into this topic.
(Score: 2) by cykros on Saturday October 11 2014, @04:42PM
Some of them just re-enable sysvinit on Debian, as it is still in the repos, just simply discouraged as a move by the dev team (because they're watching as more and more software in the upstream winds up depending on systemd). Frankly, I think this might be worth encouraging, as Debian is all the more likely to entirely rip it from the repos if everyone jumps for Slackware, while there may be a halfway decent likelihood they'll both continue to be supported in parallel with enough folks making use of it. Worth pointing out though is that you'll really likely be wanting to make sure to have a partitioned filesystem for easy migration to another system if you go this route, because trusting the roving mobs of hipster zombies at the helm not to entirely cut off sysvinit isn't something I'll say is the best idea...
Don't forget, there are those users who are fine with systemd on the specific systems they're working with (I can only assume they all are using laptops with limited battery life where every split second of time spent booting may as well be made of gold). The catastrophe here isn't really its existence (there is PLENTY of bad software in the open source world...and when it stays out of the way, it doesn't bother anyone), but that the distros did the same damn thing they did with pulseaudio, applying a modest coat of lube before carrying it along with a double fisting motion into their system...making sure to remove what was in there before lest it confuse the users. What should be default only in specialized distributions (or perhaps alternate install ISO's) thus has instead forced additional complexity and a featureset most people either are indifferent about or actively will fight off of their system. If one day I saw systemd pop up on Slackbuilds.org, it'd really not even a little bit bother me, any more than pulseaudio's existence there does. It's the attitude/behavioral problem that ultimately is the source of MY rage on the matter.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 11 2014, @08:05PM
re-enable sysvinit on Debian
I remember folks saying that Kubuntu was a bloated mess and seeing a bunch of posts mentioning as an alternative
sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop
When Tomboy got included in Ubuntu (sucking in Mono with it), I immediately saw the old hands posting a method to de-Mono systems.
I'm surprised I haven't seen mention by some of the stalwarts of a build script to automate the process to de-systemd Debian.
...or maybe I'm just not hanging out in all the right places these days.
-- gewg_
(Score: 2) by Bot on Sunday October 12 2014, @10:13AM
>They are moving to Slackware, or even FreeBSD
FreeBSD? Impossible because:
It is now official. Netcraft has confirmed: *BSD is dying
One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered *BSD community when IDC confirmed that *BSD market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of a recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last [samag.com] in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.
You don't need to be the Amazing Kreskin to predict *BSD's future. The hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood.
FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers. The sudden and unpleasant departures of long time FreeBSD developers Jordan Hubbard and Mike Smith only serve to underscore the point more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: FreeBSD is dying.
Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.
OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.
Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.
All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS dilettante dabblers. *BSD continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, *BSD is dead.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 11 2014, @02:25AM
(Sorry I can't be bothered to reset my password I'm not usually Anon.)
I for one would not dream of declaring my religion on a government tax form.
I'm puzzling over a first amendment lawsuit against the US State of Washington, as washington jail inmates are only permitted hardcover books if they are either legal texts, or religious books - whose religion falls on a specific list that's issued by the state's department of corrections.
WTF?
"Congress shall make no law respecting a religion" is part of the First Amendment to the US Constitution. It is flatly illegal for US government entitities to regulate religion!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 11 2014, @02:53AM
It is flatly illegal for US government [entities][1] to regulate religion
Sue the bastards. (Good luck showing that you "have standing".)
...and next time you vote, make sure you DON'T vote for people who will appoint judges friendly to viewpoints you despise.
You DO vote, don't you?
[1] Typing "tities" seems to have gotten you a bit excited.
-- gewg_
(Score: 3, Informative) by Silentknyght on Saturday October 11 2014, @10:53AM
Great. I know the US likes to throw its weight around, internationally, but this Germany and all, where the US constitution means squat.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by wonkey_monkey on Saturday October 11 2014, @11:24AM
Great. I know the US likes to throw its weight around, internationally, but this Germany and all, where the US constitution means squat.
Shh. Don't interrupt someone on a barely tangential rant.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk
(Score: 4, Interesting) by kaszz on Saturday October 11 2014, @11:17AM
"I for one would not dream of declaring my religion on a government tax form."
Well just ask the Nazis when they invaded their neighboring countries. Records of who had what religion that was created with the original intention to aid the placement of churches got used to select who to send to concentration camps instead.
Makes you wonder how the records in these new times will be used if the government gets replaced or changes direction..
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 11 2014, @04:32PM
Silly American, unless you're a buisness you'll never need to fill out tax forms yourself in most of Europe.
(Score: 2) by cykros on Saturday October 11 2014, @04:48PM
You are aware that prisoners lose their constitutional rights while incarcerated, correct?
I mean, I'll agree, it's a shitty policy. But that's why they get away with it there, as well as plenty of other places around the country.
(Score: 1) by GeminiDomino on Sunday October 12 2014, @06:19AM
It's worth pointing out that the whole "shall make no law" bit isn't a constitutional right on the part of the convict, but a restriction on the scumbags who are doing it. Can't really blame you, though: it's not like those fuckers can keep the concept in their tiny little brains any longer than it takes to yell at somebody in the other team's jersey for ignoring it.
"We've been attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of our culture"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 11 2014, @11:41PM
"I for one would not dream of declaring my religion on a government tax form."
Yeah, well you don't live in Germany then, do you?
"I'm puzzling over a first amendment lawsuit against the US State of Washington"
Irrelevant, since this story is about Germany, and how if you declare a religion that has a particular tax status you pay what is euphemistically known as a "tithe" to that organisation. What this has to do with the US State of Washington is quite beyond me.
", as washington jail inmates are only permitted hardcover books if they are either legal texts, or religious books - whose religion falls on a specific list that's issued by the state's department of corrections."
What this has to do with jail inmates in the US State of Washington is even more beyond me. To quote the parent, "WTF?"
""Congress shall make no law respecting a religion" is part of the First Amendment to the US Constitution. It is flatly illegal for US government entitities to regulate religion!"
Yeah, well, it might fucking AMAZE you to learn that the German states are not subject to the fucking US Congress, or the US fucking constitution, let alone the US fucking government.
(Score: 2) by cmn32480 on Saturday October 11 2014, @04:28AM
FTFS: "reported up to a 50% increase in the numbers of people officially deregistering, in the run up to the changes"
Even money they are still going to church, temple, or whatever and giving what they want in CASH. Everybody takes cash.
"It's a dog eat dog world, and I'm wearing Milkbone underwear" - Norm Peterson
(Score: 3, Interesting) by tftp on Saturday October 11 2014, @05:20AM
It doesn't make much sense to pay the church with after-tax money. It's far more likely that people finally realized that they are paying considerable money for nothing. It only makes church leaders rich [csmonitor.com].
(Score: 4, Informative) by aristarchus on Saturday October 11 2014, @06:22AM
If you belong to a religion, you should pay 10 % of your income to support the child molesters that run your religion. This is ancient. It is so ancient that the Mormons, who wished sincerely to appear to be ancient, adopted it as well. Medieval practice was, 10% to the church so you don't go to hell, 10% to the Lord, so he defend you from barbarians (__not attack you, take all your stuff, rape your livestock and ride off on your women). Good deal, all told, if you can actually live on 80% of what you produce. Of course, the Peasant's Rebellion argues otherwise. If only Martin Luther hadn't been such a prick.
(Score: 2) by cykros on Saturday October 11 2014, @04:55PM
It's tithing, but modernized to use the government to handle the roll of payment processor (and naturally, get their cut in doing so).
And if you're leaving your religion because you don't want to pay your capital gains tithe, then I'm not really sure why you were there in the first place. What part of "sell everything you have, give the money to the poor, and come follow me" was unclear? It'd be one thing if this were Spain, but then, Spain's religious leanings were bad enough to get the angry populace murdering nuns at at least one point in their history, so that should tell you how well the Christian with moneybags doctrine works out.
I'm sure they'll be looking for the next social club post haste, making sure to keep an eye on membership fees a bit closer this time. Kudos to Germany for doing their part to clean the rats out of the temple.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 13 2014, @01:35PM
Many people are there just because social customs and peer pressure. And, if you are going to cite the bible, a more appropiate part would be "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar's", since that is the part specifically about taxes.
Also, you are quite wrong about religion in Spain and latin countries in general: There are many stablished customs about it, from "Saint Patrons" to brotherhoods, baptisms, weddings, funerals... but their main point is social and not religious, it's about showing how social customs-abiding you are. It's not uncommon to find great sinners in those events, Corleone-like, although they don't comply with the precepts, but it's usually not life-directing like it seems to be in anglo-saxon countries.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by kaszz on Saturday October 11 2014, @11:09AM
Those taxes usually cover maintenence of cultural heritage in the form of old churches and services like funerals. Meaning that if people drop this tax the government will have to foot the bill eventually and thus taxes will be raised. So back to square one ..
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 11 2014, @06:18PM
No, even if that were to happen it still wouldn't be the same. Skydaddy wouldn't get his slice.