So, the US Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms sets up a fake storefront in Milwaukee as a honeypot to buy stolen goods. They don't put a burglar alarm on the the place—or even proper locks, apparently—and the contents get stolen by the truckload. Their expensive, ineffective operation is exposed by reporters when the Feds destroy the landlord's property and won't pay damages or even rent.
Repeat for similar stories in Wichita, Portland, Oregon, Pensacola, Albuquerque, Atlanta, and Phoenix.
Great stuff from TechDirt's coverage:
When [the Milwaukee landlord] tried to collect, they didn't pay up. In fact, an ATF lawyer warned him that if he kept asking for the money, it could be seen as harassing federal agents.
The other thing that becomes clear in all of this is that these "undercover" ATF agents aren't just sloppy and stupid, they seem to go out of their way to be ineffective and dangerous.
[...]The whole effort has resulted in some attempts to actually disband the entire ATF, which might not be such a bad idea. While we hadn't been following the agency that closely (and hadn't been aware of all of these fake storefronts and the crazy stories behind them), in the past we've reported on how the ATF made up an entire robbery plot in order to entrap a group of poor young men in a "crime" that wouldn't have existed, but for the ATF's fantasy.
It would be nice to trust law enforcement officials, but they keep giving us reasons not to trust them at all.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by mendax on Saturday November 29 2014, @09:27AM
Why would I trust the ATF when I don't trust the government?
I have a Census Bureau survey that has been sitting on a table in my house for over a month that I have yet to do anything about. I've considered scrawling in a magic marker the words, "Why don't you ask the NSA for this information?" The law forbids the Census Bureau from revealing the confidential information in the survey but I don't trust them because it's too easy for the government to break the law without those who are harmed by their actions to seek any recourse. When James Clapper goes to jail for lying to Congress about the NSA's snooping then I may fill the survey out.
It's really quite a simple choice: Life, Death, or Los Angeles.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Saturday November 29 2014, @09:36AM
Tell them, not only us.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by Jeremiah Cornelius on Saturday November 29 2014, @05:12PM
Disband the USA.
Horrible, failed experiment.
You're betting on the pantomime horse...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 30 2014, @06:41AM
It's just a fucking woman's cuntry forcing all other countries to be woman's cuntries too.
(Score: 1) by anubi on Saturday November 29 2014, @09:43AM
Well, the government does not have to be "nice" and play by the rules.
They have the guns.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2) by Dunbal on Saturday November 29 2014, @11:43AM
That can change within a week. Have you not been paying attention to the middle-east/ukraine?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Magic Oddball on Saturday November 29 2014, @01:10PM
There's a bit of a difference... In the Middle East and Ukraine, the government under attack doesn't have all that much in terms of fancy weapons or even a particularly large military, while the psychotically violent attackers in both cases appear to be receiving not only military-grade weapons, but training & soldiers from outside forces.
In contrast, the US government has a near-limitless supply of the most powerful weapons on the planet, and an impossibly huge, extremely aggressive military that makes our militaristic police look like kindergarten teachers. The chances of even the most eager second-amendment activists developing a large enough standing army & weapons cache to disturb the government are extremely tiny, and even then they'd be flattened in a hurry.
Anybody in favor of trying to outgun our government who isn't familiar with the details of the 1993 Waco siege should read, at the very least, the detailed Wikipedia article [wikipedia.org] to get a good idea of what the likely results would be.
(Score: 2) by Kell on Saturday November 29 2014, @02:50PM
In fairness, though, soldiers are not robots (and neither are police for that matter). They have families and friends outside the forces. When they see what's happening to wider society, they will be less inclined to follow the unreasonable commands of a corrupt government. Now, obviously there will be some who will pull the trigger on orders regardless. But, provided there are enough who will dissent, there is the prospect that a domestic insurgency or civil war will draw enough trained soldiers to the other side to create a more even conflict. Ultimately a military force serves the people of its nation, not any one government - even if it is not enshrined in law, it is mandated by the societal bonds that bind us all.
Scientists ask questions. Engineers solve problems.
(Score: 1) by anubi on Sunday November 30 2014, @01:23AM
Hence, the government's interest in drones and intelligence gathering so the banking (ownership) class can get some idea who they can trust. A machine, if you are its master, can be trusted to the limits of the physics governing its operation. However, as we have discussed all over the web, most of the commodity machines used by the civilian population cannot be trusted. The person who paid for the machine and in whose home the machine resides is NOT its owner in the computational sense of the word.
Personally, I feel my old DOS machines and my Arduinos can be trusted... simply because I can read their old codes and have some trusted BIOS UV EPROMS.
I get the strong idea that in the event of social turmoil, foreign troops will be brought into the USA to control the populace, so foreign soldiers-for-hire will not be asked to fire on their own families and friends. I think the banksters are all too aware tensions are growing and people are wising up to how the banksters have swindled the entire nation out of the so-called "ownership" of anything by working with a buyable legislature to set favorable ( to them, anyway ) banking and taxation law. They know the wagging of their pens may not be honored if they ask the people hired for the money they print to destroy their own hometowns.
Please do not get me wrong about confiscating something someone has worked for. If he earned it, its his.
What I have a big beef with is people getting a special charter to print what they do not have out of thin air, loaning it out, exacting interest on that which they never had, which can be repaid only in yet more tokens which must be "earned" in order to pay back usury - usury on that which only special people are chartered to print. Then the people who print the money foreclose on real properties acquired with imaginary tokens. Its a damn shell game and its rigged so one has to play in order to do any commerce. Wealth accrued through this channel wasn't earned.... it was swindled.
We pass laws to say those who have the biggest muscles can't use those to strongarm their way into taking other people's stuff... but the way capitalism works, those who have the biggest bank accounts can use that to strongarm their way into taking other people's stuff... and it just ain't right.
One of the greatest concerns I have for the youngsters growing up is how we rate them for "credit scoring", that is we are setting up these huge databases of young lives, and sorting them out for just how useful they will be for making a bankster rich by submitting to usurious activities. On top of that, student debt, and this endless array of banksters going after the inheritances that had been passed down for generations, but being sold off to the banksters in the "generation of the reverse mortgage".
I expect these kids to revolt. Shit, anyone given this circumstance would soon see through it and put their foot down. Our whole system has become a bunch of parasites all trying to find some young host to suck dry.
No, I am not a resentful young kid; I am an old fuddydud which is mighty pissed at world we are leaving for our kids - even though I do not have any. A lot of us kids of the 60's were in the hippie generation, and were really fed up with social injustice. A lot of us were idealistic; I still am. Listen to our 60's music get a pretty good idea of the social mores of the day. Many were about drugs - I did not go that route and resisted them just as I am resisting the things I discussed in this post. I was more down the line of building a nation of people doing what their heart leads them to do, as long as it doesn't come out of someone else's hide. What has disappointed me so is the grinches of greed and their henchmen ( Congress ) keep swooping in.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 30 2014, @06:45AM
I hope your prediction happens.
Atleast it will destroy feminism, even if we're all dead to the last man.
There's no women's rights in the ground.
And you can imagine marrying a young girl right before you die.
(Score: 1) by anubi on Sunday November 30 2014, @09:05AM
I do not want what I fear to happen.
That's why I am bickering so much. I am on the first box of liberty... the soap box. I also use the ballot box and jury box when I can.
I do not want to see the fourth box put into play.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Hairyfeet on Saturday November 29 2014, @03:05PM
Tell that to Uncle Mo-Mo in Libya...oh yeah you can't, he's dead. he too had plenty of tanks and planes but you see here's the thing, the military? They are made of of people, non rich people to boot. As someone who has gotten to know many a serviceman from working on their PCs I can tell ya they are real big on the Constitution,politicians, especially ones that treat the Constitution like a rag to wipe their ass with? Not so much.
ACs are never seen so don't bother. Always ready to show SJWs for the racists they are.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 29 2014, @11:19PM
Now, I won't say it was a *well*-reasoned position.
The way the Chinese gov't handles this is they bring in troops from a few provinces over so there are few blood ties with the people they oppress and kill.
Closer to home, the Ohio National Guard didn't seem to have any problem murdering a bunch of kids at Kent State in 1970.
If you haven't heard of Jackson State, you should look that up too.
...then there's the ever-more-militarized police forces.
Waco has already been mentioned.
In addition, at Ruby Ridge, a mom with an infant in her arms was shot dead.
Charges against the Fed sniper were dismissed, of course.
Sure, there have been some instances where a show of arms by the populous has deterred a gov't.
If shooting actually starts however, the guys with the uniforms will come out on top.
It would be interesting to see what an opposition that is "a well-regulated militia" could do in those circumstances.
-- gewg_
(Score: 1) by anubi on Sunday November 30 2014, @09:14AM
That kind of shit is scary, gewg_.
But it has to be remembered.
Lest it get repeated.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 30 2014, @12:10PM
The worst thing about empire is the trickle-down thing (again).
The nasty things the occupation troops do to the brown-skinned people over there, the people with the guns and uniforms soon start doing back here.
...and folks in the fatherland start thinking that's the way things are supposed to be.
The Exorbitant Price Of Empire On The USA (Blood, Treasure, Acceptance Of Violence As Normal) [googleusercontent.com] (orig) [antiwar.com]
Oh, and kudos for spelling "populace" properly up the thread. Damned homophones again.
-- gewg_
(Score: 1) by Mr. Slippery on Sunday November 30 2014, @01:09AM
Nukes are not much use in civil conflict. The U.S.'s WMD did not lead to victory in Vietnam, Iraq, or Afghanistan.
See also the use of armed resistance in the civil rights struggle, the Deacons for Defense and the Black Panthers.
(A note to my fans in domestic surveillance: I am not, at this time, endorsing the violent overthrow of the U.S. government or of any state or local government, merely discussing a theoretical possibility.)
(Score: 4, Insightful) by dlb on Saturday November 29 2014, @01:11PM
People by and large do not read up on the candidates, form logical opinions, and go to the polls to throw the bums out. Instead I see us brain rotting in front of screens, and voting maybe, if it's not to inconvenient. And when we do vote, it's only for those on our team (right or wrong, we're gonna win!).
That can change within a week.
Nope, I don't see that happening in the US anytime soon. Certainly not by anything so overly taxing as having to get up off the couch and drive some place.
(Score: 2) by Whoever on Saturday November 29 2014, @10:09PM
There is a problem with democracy in the USA -- without lots of money, it's very hard to be visible to voters.
On the other hand, the Mayor in Ferguson was re-elected after all the problems there. To vote, you have to register to vote, and it seems that many people in Ferguson can't be bothered to do this. Are these non-voters, the same people who are on the streets, protesting? I don't know.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 29 2014, @11:32PM
When i saw the comment by anubi, I was reminded of a lyric by Jim Morrison from the '60s.
They got the guns but we got the numbers [googleusercontent.com] (orig) [bestmusic.ro]
So, it's been over 4 decades since then without consolidating our power.
The elites' divide-and-conquer strategy is working well.
With the vast majority still getting their "information" from the boob tube, and the ownership of that being in the hands of the oligarchy, change doesn't look to be happening any time soon.
Your comment about apathy brought to mind the stats that among USAians, 30 percent don't bother to register to vote. [statisticbrain.com]
Of those who do register, only 64 percent actually vote in presidential elections.
In midterm elections, it's 36 percent. [thinkprogress.org]
The comment by Jeremiah makes me think what a proper reboot of the system would require.
Australia has ranked voting (if you don't get a majority, you don't win).
They also have mandated participation; [wikipedia.org] if you don't vote, you get fined.
This brings us back to your other point and mine about TeeVee.
The reboot will require that the public airways serve to inform and not just propagandize.
-- gewg_
(Score: 1) by http on Saturday November 29 2014, @06:09PM
Yes, where the USA spent billions backing everyone there that wanted the same coup the USA wanted. Don't hold your breath.
I browse at -1 when I have mod points. It's unsettling.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Sunday November 30 2014, @02:59AM
They're not the only ones with guns around here. Let's hope that doesn't become important.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by bradley13 on Saturday November 29 2014, @12:13PM
...nothing will be done. The US government is incapable of disciplining it's own. Maybe some low-level flunkie will get a slap on the wrist - mind - not for running a lousy program, but for letting the media find out about it. The people actually responsible? They will remain untouched...
Remember the acting director of the ATF, Kenneth Melson, who resigned after Fast and Furious? You don't think that had any sort of adverse impact on his career, do you? Among numerous other roles, he is now the chair of the Ethics Committee of the American Association of Forensic Sciences [aafs.org].
Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 29 2014, @03:51PM
The connection you're making between Fast and Furious and his current position is not apparent to me that I don't understand why I should be surprised or see this as a problem (the ethics angle).
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday November 29 2014, @05:41PM
The connection you're making between Fast and Furious and his current position is not apparent to me
It's a demonstration of his lack of fitness for a career in ethics. He wasn't directly involved (at least we don't have evidence to that effect), but he was responsible and failed to carry out his responsibility.
(Score: 1) by iamjacksusername on Saturday November 29 2014, @05:00PM
It is just another example of zero accountability for those in positions of high power. At least one Border Agent has been killed by a weapon that was supplied through Fast and Furious and who knows how many many in Mexico. The ATF funneled weapons to violent gangs in another country which has resulted in menay deaths but, so far, there has been no prosecutions. People should be in jail for this.
(Score: 1) by iamjacksusername on Saturday November 29 2014, @04:52PM
Ah yes, the Keystone Kops of the federal agencies. That is a direct quote from federal law enforcement agents. The ATF is where someone goes once all of the other agencies have said refused to hire you. There are other incidents where they used people with very low IQ to make purchases and then subsequently arrest them.
http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/watchdogreports/atf-uses-rogue-tactics-in-storefront-stings-across-the-nation-b99146765z1-234916641.html/ [jsonline.com]
Fast and Furious is par for the course for them. Because, yes, they decided to name their mind-bogging-ly stupid idea to ship thousands of arms to drug cartels after an action movie franchise that appeals to the type of person.... wait, that actually makes a lot of sense now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal/ [wikipedia.org]
Just Google "atf botched operation" and prepare to spend the rest of the day blown away with the fact that these people are allowed to have actual federal police powers.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 29 2014, @05:13PM
When I listened to this episode I was completely unsurprised. Not because I am some paranoid anti-government freak, but because this story is as old as the human race. Responsibility without accountability always leads to corruption. It doesn't matter if it is the government, public corporations, private business, non-profits, or churches. It isn't that the people involved are horrible, immoral and selfish - those things are in all of us, no one is a saint, even literal saints.
More generally, humans (and animals) are all designed to push the limits. Raccoons will get in your garbage if there is nothing to stop them, movie directors will make colossal, self-indulgent box-office flops if given an unlimited budget, bankers will take the money in their vaults and cops will behave like criminals if they are unsupervised.
On the other hand, too much supervision means there is not enough slack for people to exercise good judgement, they become rule-following automatons afraid to risk their job over making a minor mistake. So the trick of it is to find the right balance between the importance of the task and the risk of abuse. When we exaggerate the risk of a problem, we inappropriately reduce the oversight of the people working on the problem and end up creating worse problems under the color of authority.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Arik on Saturday November 29 2014, @05:48PM
They have not made it easier for law-abiding citizens to get alcohol, tobacco, or firearms! In fact, we are still cut off from the source of several of the worlds finest tobacco and alcohol products: Cuba!
And while their efforts at facilitating the purchase of firearms by south-of-the-border cartels have received attention, and proven that they are capable of facilitation, the elephant in the room here is that the cartels are clearly not composed of law-abiding US Citizens, so even there they got it wrong!
So as much as it seems like a great idea to have a federal agency devoted to serving our needs for alcohol, tobacco, and firearms - I am afraid this agency just isn't it.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 01 2014, @05:08AM
The only thing I do appreciate about the government getting involved in the moonshine business is that some moonshiners take a profitable shortcut and produce methanol and lead poisonings. At the least, in order to pay tax on it, one has to identify the product and its source and verify it is what they claim it is.
I would much rather buy a jug of taxed alcohol whose maker is known and liable for making bad stuff than have a jug of unknown spirits handed to me. Even for free.
The only place I would draw the line is my right to make my own stuff. If I want to make a run of moonshine for my own use, I do not believe the government should have any say in it. If I get sick off of it, no one's to blame but me. There is definitely an art to making good 'shine. However with Arduinos being so common these days, making good shine got a lot easier.
However, if its just 'shine you want, ask for "vodka" at the store. From all I can tell, vodka is high grade ( albeit diluted ) 'shine.
It takes time to make a good run. If you try to save every drop of likker, the first stuff that comes out will get ya. Methanol. If you run your pot too hot, you'll get fusel oil in your worm.
One has to know the pressures and temperatures at every point in the system if he has any hope of keeping just the good stuff. There is a lot of crap you also make and you really don't want that in your likker. One thing I found invaluable is a set of thermodynamic "steam tables" for ethanol, so you can run right at the edge where you are vaporizing and condensing just the ethanol. The rest of the run is best used for solvent and motor fuel; it ain't fit to drink.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday November 29 2014, @06:26PM
The other story they mention is a classic entrapment scam where a law enforcement officer encourages some chumps to do a criminal activity. What was a relatively rare twist is the considerable valuable goods that were along for the ride. Judge Otis Wright noted the presence of "arbitrary amount of drugs". Why the need for this to bait a hook? But it does create the opportunity to skim some off the top and sell it.
Finally, there's the notorious Fast and Furious case which was supposed to be a sting operation to catch firearm smugglers, but which didn't catch anyone major and simultanously allowed a number of high quality and untracked firearms to be smuggled into Mexico. While much has been made of the many deaths which have come to be connected with the firearms smuggled into Mexico, little has been paid to the Mexican-side benefactors, the Sinaloa Cartel.
How much would it be worth to them to have US to Mexico smuggling shipments that they know, due to ATF involvement, won't be intercepted by US law enforcement? They could smuggle out far more weapons than just the ATF ones. Or they could launder hundreds of millions of dollars.
Instead, every time we get these stories it's the same narrative. Grossly incompetent ATF officers act incomprehensibly. I think it's time to follow the money.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Thesis on Sunday November 30 2014, @01:15AM
Several ATF employees even call the department mismanaged. A few of them started their own website in effort to bring things to light. You can find find current and former employees right there dishing out the dirt about the politics of the administrative side of it:
http://cleanupatf.org/forums/ [cleanupatf.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 30 2014, @04:51AM
Why doesn't the ATF just hire some real retail employees? I hear how walmart employees get paid poorly. Walmart employees know how to run a store, real or fake. Why not hire some? They'll be cheap.
The sad thing is that an entry level ATF agent will probably make more than a Walmart supervisor. The ATF employees will probably get less punishment than Walmart employees.