from the breaking-up-is-hard-to-do dept.
The USA has been making life difficult for Americans residing abroad; FATCA causes plenty of problems; but so does citizenship-based taxation. The IRS and Treasury department have made the reporting and taxation more onerous, and stepped up their collection efforts.
The result should be a surprise to no one: more and more Americans are handing in their US citizenship. Total numbers are unavailable (the lists published by the government include only a portion of the total), but undisputed is the fact that the numbers are increasing rapidly.
Having lots of citizens want to leave is...embarrassing. One solution could be to review the policies leading to people to hand in their citizenship. Another would be to make the fee unaffordable, especially for people living on second- or third-world incomes. It's obvious, of course, which route the USA has chosen: It now costs $2350 to hand in your US passport; more than 20 times the international average.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 03 2014, @01:16PM
Total numbers are unavailable (the lists published by the government include only a portion of the total), but undisputed is the fact that the numbers are increasing rapidly.
If there are no accurate figures how exactly can that claim be "undisputed"? I heavily dispute it unless you can prove otherwise. I'm sorry but I don't just take your word for it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 03 2014, @01:26PM
WHAT--You're disputing it!? There's always a party pooper.
Rats, now we have to edit TFSubmission.
Thanks a lot, bub.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 03 2014, @01:27PM
Statistics don't always require you to have total numbers in order to know something within a great deal of certainty.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by VLM on Wednesday December 03 2014, @01:36PM
I heavily dispute it unless you can prove otherwise.
In the past if you wanted/needed to renounce it was a same day operation, more or less. Now the demand is so high that some consulates in Canada are booked for many months into the future. Go ahead, call the Toronto consulate and try to schedule a renunciation...
You can also look at a .gov provided graph of the fake data and see its going up pretty fast.
If you're a Canadian "for real" and an accidental American then you pretty much can't visit the USA anymore unless you file back taxes and massive punishment payments, and then spend a lot of time and money renouncing. Getting all freaked out about thousands of dollars is not a big deal, considering the IRS probably wants $500K or more for the income you earned as a lifelong Canadian citizen working in Canada, and you're going to have to take time off work and travel to Toronto, etc.
Its a really huge problem... go talk to some Canadians. Your crime is having a dad originally from Oregon, and next thing you know you're arrested when you visit the USA on vacation. Or your bank closes your account because you're a money laundering terrorist. "everyone has heard a story".
You probably won't be extradited, but you'll never be able to visit the USA (legally) unless you pay up.
The primary real world effect is if you're a retired Canadian old dude with a USA parent, you can go on vacation, as the foreigner you are, to the USA for the first time in your life, if you pay $50K, or you can say F the USA and go on vacation in .mx or ireland or whatever. Or just travel the USA illegally which has all kinds of interesting implications if you get caught.
(Score: 4, Funny) by zocalo on Wednesday December 03 2014, @01:45PM
It still can be, if you think outside the box. Book travel to some random ISIS occupied hell hole in Syria or Iraq and CC Senator Ted Cruz [time.com] your travel plans. Make your (soon to be ex-) government work for you, just for once!
There's a downside to everything though, right? :p
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 3, Interesting) by VLM on Wednesday December 03 2014, @01:52PM
"everyone has heard a story"
Oh I forgot my favorite story, the spammers and scammers have caught on and I've heard plenty of stories from Canadians about getting email and postal spam from "the IRS" requesting $500 fees and stuff because "everyone's heard about it". Often the spam claims the IRS accepts paypal or credit card payments, LOL.
(Score: 2, Informative) by curunir_wolf on Wednesday December 03 2014, @02:35PM
Often the spam claims the IRS accepts paypal or credit card payments, LOL.
In fact, the IRS does accept credit card payments [irs.gov].
I am a crackpot
(Score: 1) by Lunix Nutcase on Wednesday December 03 2014, @03:33PM
The IRS does accept credit card payments. Has so for years and years now.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 04 2014, @04:43AM
"everyone has heard a story"
Oh I forgot my favorite story, the spammers and scammers have caught on and I've heard plenty of stories from Canadians about getting email and postal spam from "the IRS" requesting $500 fees and stuff because "everyone's heard about it". Often the spam claims the IRS accepts paypal or credit card payments, LOL.
Elle Oh fucking Elle.
(Score: 2) by Geezer on Wednesday December 03 2014, @05:03PM
You write as if illegal entry into, and work/travel within the USA incurs any real risk of arrest or deportation these days.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Lunix Nutcase on Wednesday December 03 2014, @05:07PM
You seem to falsely imply it *ever* entailed much risk of arrest or importation. Illegals have been freely coming and going and working in the US with hardly any risk for decades and decades. You do realize that was part of the reason Reagan granted amnesty nearly 30 years ago, right?
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday December 03 2014, @06:24PM
I somewhat recently visited Ontario to attend a Catholic wedding because the American arch-bishop wanted a bigger pay-off than the Canadian one. The Canadian hosts at the Bed-and-Breakfast where we stayed expressed a desire for Canada to join the United States. I said, no that's horrible, we Americans need a place to go when stuff gets too crazy here. But now I know that even that would be insufficient. Humans who desire freedom need a new place, be it Antarctica, or Mars. America tried to be the place where innovators could succeed, but in the end it turned into the worst guarantors of the status quo there could be.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by dry on Wednesday December 03 2014, @09:52PM
It's all relative. Compared to our right wing government Obama is pretty transparent and is more supportive of your rights then our government is of our rights.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday December 03 2014, @10:18PM
Humans who desire freedom need a new place, be it Antarctica, or Mars. America tried to be the place where innovators could succeed, but in the end it turned into the worst guarantors of the status quo there could be.
Well, how much do you value freedom? I notice on this discussion forum there is a lack of people advocating for the freedom of developing world labor to displace expensive developed world labor (eg, complaining about the "race to the bottom" of unskilled labor competition), the freedom of people not to pay via taxes for certain pipe dreams expressed here (eg, free education, various Big Science projects, social safety nets, Robin Hood schemes, etc), and scary people (illegal immigrants, terrorists, criminals, racists, Ukrainians, etc). If you want the freedom to change the world in ways you like say via innovation, you end up granting a similar private someone the means via those same channels to change the world in ways you don't like.
The reason I mention the above is that I see a lot of people complaining about declining freedom and stagnation in the developed world while simultaneously advocating policies that make that problem worse. A typical example is the pension. These have the dual role of creating yet another reason for the public to ignore the future while simultaneously created a pervasive and sometimes intrusive service that can be used by the holder (public or private) to further their own schemes or merely to just get rich and powerful. I consider such things fundamental to the modern "bread and circuses" (here, on the "bread" side) that are used to keep a large portion of humanity controlled.
Consider this. In the US, there has long been greedy and unprincipled people. What's any different today that wasn't true with the monopoly trusts a century ago or the slave traders two centuries years ago? The answer is that via government they have access to far more wealth and power than they did in those olden days. For example, the federal government of 1914 had just started to abandon the long trend of consuming roughly 2-4% of the US's contemporary GDP (in the build up to the First World War). States have experienced similar increases in spending. Now, the federal government has over 20% spending relative to current GDP (including Social Security) with states spending similar levels. There's far more to fight over and exploit now than there was.
Regulation has similarly jumped [mercatus.org] with modern regulation (measured by the crude metric of pages of the official federal publication, "Code of Federal Regulations") having gone up by almost 150% between 1975 and 2012 (there are similar trends [ipa.org.au] in Australia). I wouldn't be surprised to read of profitable automated data mining of developed world regulatory/legal systems for novel tax loopholes, subsidies, and other profitable schemes in the coming decades.
I think a principle component of modern stagnation is the desire for security. The citizen wants protection from risks and scary people; businesses want a predictable, uncompetitive market for their products; and everyone wants a bailout when things don't go well. Freedom gets consistently compromised by implementation of all these desires especially when the system is gamed.
(Score: 2) by emg on Thursday December 04 2014, @02:31AM
Moving to Mars won't stop the IRS chasing you...
(Score: 2, Interesting) by brocksampson on Thursday December 04 2014, @05:35AM
If you're a Canadian "for real" and an accidental American then you pretty much can't visit the USA anymore unless you file back taxes and massive punishment payments, and then spend a lot of time and money renouncing. Getting all freaked out about thousands of dollars is not a big deal, considering the IRS probably wants $500K or more for the income you earned as a lifelong Canadian citizen working in Canada, and you're going to have to take time off work and travel to Toronto, etc.
When US citizens living abroad move back to the US they have a five-year grace period during which they can settle their back taxes without penalties. This process is triggered when you change your residence. How then is it possible that Canadians who have never resided in the US are slapped with a tax bill the moment they cross the US border? I think this is a case of a friend told a friend told a friend because unless you actually try to move to the US on your American passport the IRS isn't even informed of your presence in the country. (You do, however, have to settle your taxes when you renounce your citizenship.)
(Score: 2) by zocalo on Wednesday December 03 2014, @01:37PM
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 3, Informative) by bradley13 on Wednesday December 03 2014, @02:19PM
Thanks for the graph [typepad.com] - that's a prettier one that those I had found. These figures represent the numbers in the lists published by the government. Note the threefold increase from 2012 to 2013. For 2014, well, we'll see.
Why are these lists incomplete? Because they only include formal renunciations. They do not include relinquishments (loss of citizenship when naturalized in another country), and the government does not publish those numbers.
However, we can find hints. As an example, in early 2013, the US ambassador ambassador to Switzerland let slip that 900 Americans in Switzerland had handed in their passports the previous year (i.e., 2012). Yet for 2012, the total number of officially listed renunciations is under 1000 - how many of those will have been Swiss? Switzerland is tiny - there are much larger populations of Americans living in many other countries. There's no way to get any sort of exact numbers out of this, but certainly the total numbers are much, much higher.
To the AC who complained about my assertion that the rapid grown is "undisputed" - use Google, and find a single source that says otherwise. The government, the media, the expat organizations - all of them agree that the numbers are skyrocketing. The five-fold increase in the fee may reduce renunciations (or it may not), but it apparently does not apply to relinquishments, at least, not yet...
Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
(Score: 3) by M. Baranczak on Wednesday December 03 2014, @02:33PM
To the AC who complained about my assertion that the rapid grown is "undisputed" - use Google, and find a single source that says otherwise.
Sorry, that's not how it works. You're the one who's making a factual assertion, it's your job to provide the evidence.
(Score: 2) by urza9814 on Thursday December 04 2014, @05:43PM
Sorry, that's not how it works. It would literally require violating the known laws of physics for the submitter to prove that statement true. You can't prove a negative.
You're essentially asking the submitter to provide for your review every word ever written, every statement ever vocalized, every thought ever considered by any human being, living or dead. Where to prove yourself correct, all you need to do is provide a single link.
Although to be REALLY pedantic, you've already proven yourself correct. I suppose it can't be undisputed if you dispute it...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 03 2014, @03:21PM
A threefold or fivefold increase means next to nothing when you are talking in the hundreds of people. A couple hundred people out of 330 million is a statistical blip.
(Score: 1) by Lunix Nutcase on Wednesday December 03 2014, @03:27PM
Even with that many fold increase and assuming the numbers are underrepresented by a margin of 10:1 (which is way overly generous) we are talking a rate of renunciation rate of .00000023%. It's a tempest in a teacup.
(Score: 1) by Lunix Nutcase on Wednesday December 03 2014, @03:47PM
Oops divided instead of multiplying. That should be .0023%. Either way, as I said this is hugely overblown.
(Score: 1) by Lunix Nutcase on Wednesday December 03 2014, @03:31PM
Exactly this guy is overblowing the statistics. Even the most recent figures are only 10% the real rate we are talking a renunciation rate of around 3 people per 100000. Autoerotic Asphyxiation kills more people in a year than will renounce their US citizenship.
(Score: 1) by Lunix Nutcase on Wednesday December 03 2014, @04:36PM
Even *if*, that is.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 04 2014, @10:09AM
The actual number of your IQ is not available but undisputed is the fact that it's not very high.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 03 2014, @01:28PM
It is weird that US ex-pats have to file a tax report. A friend who is living outside US has to decide whether her new baby should get US citizenship - it is not an obvious choice. Condemn said child to file US tax reports forever... but get advantage of easier immigration, etc.
(Score: 3, Informative) by VLM on Wednesday December 03 2014, @01:47PM
It is weird that US ex-pats have to file a tax report.
We are also one of the few countries in the world who tax citizens based on total income, not where it was earned.
My understanding of this from working with international teams, is a Japanese citizen working in USA pays USA taxes on USA income but Japan doesn't care, what with the USA not being a part of Japan territory. The other way around, the USA wants its cut. There are various exceptions such that USA citizens often don't have to pay very much, often $0.
There is a huge racket in paying people $250 or whatever to fill out your tax forms in the USA, and overseas they charge about 10x as much because they can. So thats where you hear those stories about people paying a tax accountant $2500 to file forms with the USA paying the USA $0 or whatever.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by bradley13 on Wednesday December 03 2014, @03:02PM
They don't charge 10x as much internationally just because they can. The filing requirements really are pretty awful.
- You have to send information about all of your accounts, retirement funds, investments, etc. to the Treasury Department. You send the same information, of course in a different format, to the IRS. If those are jointly held accounts, this likely violates European privacy laws. Obey US law or obey the law where you live, choose one.
- You have all of the usual tax filing requirements, only you don't get 1099s and other IRS-ready statements from your employer, bank, etc. What exchange rates do you use - the rules are very unclear. Finally, there is a whole layer of special rules and forms just for the international taxpayer.
Sure, for Joe Average, the tax owed usually comes to $0.00. Unless your income is small enough that the standard deductions cover everything, getting to that bottom line is insanely difficult. Just to take a minor example: mortgage interest is deductible, right? Well, maybe. Depending on where you live, it will probably be capped. The cap changes based on your location and filing status; your filing status options depend on the nationality of your spouse. And on, and on, and on it goes...
I had always done my own taxes in the US, and I tried to do them here. Eventually, I just had to give up - the requirements had gotten insanely complex and there was no easy way to figure out what the changes were year-to-year. So the last few years before I renounced, I hired an IRS-certified tax preparer. Tax bills $0, tax preparation bills $4digits.
Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
(Score: 2) by Whoever on Thursday December 04 2014, @04:25AM
As a naturalized US citizen with investments in my home country, I have the same issues. I pay an accountant $600/year to handle all of this.
Some years ago, I was an expat with a large multinational (based in the USA) and that company paid its accountants 10x (in todays terms) what I pay my accountant. Perhaps they had a fixed rate and there was a lot more work involved for some expats, but I doubt it. I think it's just that accountants working for large partnerships are able to overcharge their clients.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 03 2014, @02:31PM
US Expats may have to file, but they get a massive exemption on income earned overseas. If you are living in Norway, $90k may not go very far, but in much of the world that's a massive income. From the IRS website:
> If you are a U.S. citizen or a resident alien of the United States and you live abroad, you are taxed on your worldwide income. However, you may qualify to exclude from income up to an amount of your foreign earnings that is adjusted annually for inflation ($91,500 for 2010, $92,900 for 2011, $95,100 for 2012, and $97,600 for 2013). In addition, you can exclude or deduct certain foreign housing amounts.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 03 2014, @02:39PM
> US Expats may have to file, but they get a massive exemption on income earned overseas.
I guess the problem is the amount of hassle and bureaucracy this costs - a $1000 bill and couple days work every year to fill out a pointless form that has an answer of 0. I confess, I don't understand the details, its just what I hear anecdotally.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 03 2014, @03:01PM
Hell, even if you live in the US full time, filling out taxes is a PITA on that order of magnitude.
(Score: 2) by CRCulver on Wednesday December 03 2014, @03:02PM
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 03 2014, @03:21PM
Yeah buddy I hear you, it's like I own two cars and have to pay for BOTH of them!!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 03 2014, @03:51PM
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 03 2014, @06:51PM
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 03 2014, @03:28PM
Oh, the horror of trying to live in the third world on $90k a year.
(Score: 2) by CRCulver on Wednesday December 03 2014, @03:43PM
(Score: 5, Insightful) by caseih on Wednesday December 03 2014, @04:27PM
Since no one would voluntarily live under such a system, especially an American citizen, they must be living under duress I think. Rather than tax them, the US gov't should invade and rescue them.
Seriously, though, there are tax treaties between most so-called "welfare states" and the US. Taxes paid in your local country do count as a deduction against taxes the US claims against you. In simple cases, you will never owe the US government anything. However the costs from the added complication of trying to stay in compliance with US tax law are burdensome. As another poster said, you owe the US $0, but your tax accountant $4000. It's a huge scam. Besides being a bizarre interpretation of constitutional law (the US income tax claim on citizens abroad), the real reason this is becoming a big issue is that the US government is broke and they are desperate to find cash anywhere. And news stories of rich people "hiding" their income overseas has really got public opinion onboard, sadly. Most Americans at home have little concept of the nuances of situations of many of citizens living abroad.
My neighbor was born in the US, and has always been proud of her US heritage and citizenship. Recently though as retirement approached, she realized that when they sell their home and farm land (which is their retirement savings essentially), Uncle Sam would hold out its hand for half of her share of the money. Sounds fair. Except that by taking that money that leaves her with half her retirement money. Now she's followed Canadian tax law her whole adult life, and everything is onboard with Canada, and its capital gains exceptions. After some difficult soul-searching, she decided to become a Canadian citizen and renounce her US citizenship. She never had plans to live in the US (all her grandkids are here), but she would have kept her citizenship, as it was part of her identity, had it not been for the increasing difficulty of complying with US tax laws. This story gets repeated across Canada.
One recent story that illustrates the ridiculousness this US money grab has reached, the CBC reported on the plight of a disabled man who by weird quirks in American law has US citizenship. In short, the US gov't is after his bank account. But he can't renounce because the US does not see him as fit to understand what renouncing means. So he's in a quite literal catch-22.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/u-s-fatca-tax-law-catches-unsuspecting-canadians-in-its-crosshairs-1.2493864 [www.cbc.ca]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 04 2014, @07:38AM
My in-laws retired to Canada over a decade ago and they're working hard to finally ditch their US citizenship. As the previous poster said, it's not the taxes, its just following the law - finding an accounting firm that can handle both Canadian and US accounting has become almost impossible/unafforable.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 04 2014, @08:12AM
The tax treaties don't help with regard to penalties... and if you have $10k or more in total foreign banks you have to file an FBAR every year.
The penalties for not filing an FBAR are up to $10k per account per year.
If wilful.. the penalty is up to the GREATER of $100,000 or 50% of the account per account, per year.
You don't even need to tack on years of interest to see how onerous this can be.
And remember.. that can even occur with $0 income and even if you filed the FBAR the previous year (which usually makes it a wilful violation the next year ).
So imagine someone who was born to American citizenship ( via parents ) but never travelled to the U.S. and has $10k in the bank in Canada/Uk etc...
http://www.irs.gov/uac/Newsroom/Offshore-Income-and-Filing-Information-for-Taxpayers-with-Offshore-Accounts [irs.gov]
(Score: 2) by caseih on Saturday December 06 2014, @07:09PM
Mod this up. This is very important information. I have been following the situation for some time now, and I knew about the banks reporting to the US, but I had not even heard about this form before. Wow. Crazy.
(Score: 1) by dltaylor on Wednesday December 03 2014, @04:41PM
Not so. The amount of tax collected by the other governments is deductible from the US-taxed income. Same with states within the US. California taxes are a line item on Schedule A (in California, for example, a portion of the vehicle license fees are a property tax; the amount you pay for that goes on "Other taxes" line).
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 04 2014, @02:09AM
It is weird that US ex-pats have to file a tax report.
No, US is not the only country that has this system. There is also the great nation of Ethiopia. So 2.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by arulatas on Wednesday December 03 2014, @02:20PM
In the old days they used to build walls and put up barriers to keep citizens from leaving.
----- 10 turns around
(Score: 1) by brocksampson on Wednesday December 03 2014, @02:31PM
This whole thing is creepy. I get that the US taxes based on citizenship, and it isn't really that onerous--you just fill out your normal tax form and then an additional form declaring your foreign income. If that income is less than a certain amount (I think around $100,000 currently) then your tax liability is zero. But I don't get why the US government thinks that it needs to know about your bank accounts in the country in which you reside. In my case, I have joint accounts with a foreign national (AKA my wife) who has no ties to the US at all, but our bank is now compelled to report that account to the US government because of my citizenship. The stupidest part is that they don't seem to care about my American bank accounts... at least I haven't seen a box on a tax form asking me to disclose how much I have in my USD checking account that I left open when I moved abroad.
I mean, we're not millionaires flying around the world to our various vacation homes, stashing money in Swiss bank accounts to dodge taxes. We're just a regular family do regular family stuff. And there are plenty of people who just happened to have dual citizenship--like my kids--but who have no other ties to the US. Those people will now also have their bank information disclosed to the US government unless they want to pay $2350 to renounce their citizenship, but even that process involves an audit to make sure you don't have any outstanding tax liability, including the tax of forfeiting your citizenship.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by curunir_wolf on Wednesday December 03 2014, @02:55PM
But I don't get why the US government thinks that it needs to know about your bank accounts in the country in which you reside.
That's so they can seize it if you do something they don't like - or even if you don't respond to their letters or your address changes and you don't tell them. It's a very common technique. "Hey, it looks like Joe Smith might owe some taxes, but the letter we sent to him got returned unopened." "No problem, just seize his bank account. That will get his attention."
The stupidest part is that they don't seem to care about my American bank accounts... at least I haven't seen a box on a tax form asking me to disclose how much I have in my USD checking account that I left open when I moved abroad.
That's because the US banks are already tied into the IRS. They have all the information and access to those banks that they need.
I mean, we're not millionaires flying around the world to our various vacation homes, stashing money in Swiss bank accounts to dodge taxes.
They're not really interested in those guys anyway. They can afford lawyers and tax accounts (and sometimes a senator or representative or two). It's just too much work to go after those guys for taxes. You're the low-hanging fruit, like all of the middle class.
I am a crackpot
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by slash2phar on Wednesday December 03 2014, @03:00PM
That's because the US banks are already tied into the IRS. They have all the information and access to those banks that they need.
And not only that.. you can't even activate a 'gift card' in the US without supplying name, address and social security number.
(Score: 2) by arashi no garou on Wednesday December 03 2014, @03:52PM
And not only that.. you can't even activate a 'gift card' in the US without supplying name, address and social security number.
I'm not sure where you're buying your gift cards, or where your benefactor is buying them. I can go to the local Kroger grocery store or Walmart supermarket and buy a Visa gift card with cash, activate it by calling the number on the back and punching in the card number and PIN, and I can then spend it anywhere that accepts Visa. They don't ask for any further information, in fact it's a computer and not a live person that does the activation. Ditto for store-specific gift cards, in fact those are activated at the register generally. For reference, I live near Atlanta, Georgia in the US.
So I'm calling bullshit hyperbole unless you can cite a source.
(Score: 2) by hubie on Wednesday December 03 2014, @06:35PM
I have received rebates in the form of debit cards that you have to call and activate just like you would a credit card. I have not yet activated the card, so I can't tell you what information (if any) I have to provide, but the rebate cards are honest-to-goodness pre-paid debit cards and come with the usual pamphlet of small-type disclosures and liability waivers that you'd get when your bank mails you a new debit/credit card.
(Score: 1) by Mr. Slippery on Wednesday December 03 2014, @07:00PM
What brand gift card? Can you use it online? It seems that you have to regsiter your card to provide an address in order to pass AVS and use a card on-line [theprivacyguy.com].
(Score: 2) by frojack on Wednesday December 03 2014, @07:57PM
Some guys ranting blog post is hardly proof.
I've had several gift cards over the last year, mostly specific store cards, but also one Visa Gift card, and none of them required anything but a minimal activation, and a couple of these didn't even require that.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 1) by slash2phar on Friday December 05 2014, @02:45AM
(Score: 2) by arashi no garou on Friday December 05 2014, @12:06PM
I seem to recall having used a Visa branded gift card online, and yes I had to supply my name and address (duh, online purchase = shipping address). But I've never once given my social security number for a gift card no matter how I used it. Are you sure you aren't using one of those prepaid debit cards, like GreenDot? That's a different animal; it's almost like having a bank account, which would explain giving out more info. I've never used one of those so I don't know their requirements, but I'd imagine it's more than just a gift card requires.
(Score: 1) by Lunix Nutcase on Wednesday December 03 2014, @06:52PM
Total fucking lie. I buy gland receive gift cards all the time. Never once gave any of that information.
(Score: 1) by Lunix Nutcase on Wednesday December 03 2014, @06:53PM
Gland = and
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 03 2014, @09:10PM
Autocorrect?
(Score: 2) by Sir Garlon on Wednesday December 03 2014, @03:20PM
I don't agree with the submitter that having a lot of citizens want to leave is embarrassing. TFA doesn't really go into the reasons for the departures, other than an offhand mention of one billionaire who left for tax reasons.
If you're a US citizen and you feel that the benefits you receive from the Bill of Rights and all the government services, not to mention membership in American society, are not worth the costs you pay in taxes, regulatory compliance, and other legal obligations, to the point where you want to opt out of our particular social contract, then I wish you the best of luck in your new homeland.
If people were leaving in large numbers because they can obtain a better standard of living elsewhere, that would be slightly more embarrassing. I happen to believe several other countries offer comparable or better living conditions than the US, but the choice is so complicated and multi-faceted it depends heavily on your personal situation and values.
What would be much more embarrassing than someone wanting to leave would the Federal government trying to interfere with and penalize that person. It would be almost as if the government didn't regard US citizenship as a good thing.
Though I would point out that TFA does not attribute that motive to the fee increase. All it says is:
No preventative or punitive motive is attributed by TFA to the fee increase. Submitter seems to have introduced that without showing evidence. But hey, this is Soylent, why worry about unbiased summaries when we can create another opportunity to bitch about the US government?
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
(Score: 2) by hoochiecoochieman on Wednesday December 03 2014, @04:00PM
Come on, this is the biggest piece of bullshit I've ever read in my life. Don't they have computers? Revoking someone's citizenship should cost the government of any developed country a few cents.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 03 2014, @06:00PM
It costs money to setup spying on ex-pats.
(Score: 2) by Sir Garlon on Wednesday December 03 2014, @06:49PM
I don't think you've considered how complex and obtuse the Federal bureaucracy is. Sure, cancelling a citizen's passport is cheap, but first the consulate has to verify their taxes have been paid, check that there are no outstanding warrants for the person's arrest, notify the Social Security Administration, Selective Service, and that's just off the top of my head. I can easily envision the process costing a tens of man-hours all told.
If you actually expect all the hundreds of Federal agencies to have fully interoperable records and data systems, then ... you must not be from around here.
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Wednesday December 03 2014, @04:04PM
If you're a US citizen and you feel that the benefits you receive from the Bill of Rights and all the government services, not to mention membership in American society, are not worth the costs you pay in taxes
You mean those Bill of Right benefits they seem to be doing their best to erode every day? Maybe we want a government that actually does what its damn founding document promises to.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2) by PinkyGigglebrain on Thursday December 04 2014, @02:51AM
and lets not forget the part where taxing a persons income is also a violation of the Constitution. There are provisions for the government to do it in times of war but the rest of the time the only taxes that had to be paid was on the land you owned.
"Beware those who would deny you Knowledge, For in their hearts they dream themselves your Master."
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Thursday December 04 2014, @03:17PM
Interesting. Got any good links handy for further reading? I was aware the Constitution Party wants to repeal income tax but not really the logics behind it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_rebellion [wikipedia.org]
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 03 2014, @04:30PM
I agree, if you don't like the taxes or laws here, I'll help pay for the one way airline ticket outta here. Just don't come back. Especially those morons that think thugs shouldn't be arrested or shot by police just because they aren't the same skin color.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by hemocyanin on Wednesday December 03 2014, @04:37PM
The Current US Federal Bill of Rights:
1: You have the right to say anything you want as long as we agree with it. Otherwise, you may be deprived of your life without trial or any form of recourse (Al Awlaki).
...
4: You have the right to privacy and the right to be free from unreasonable searches or seizures. Note however that anything the Federal Government wants is de facto reasonable and lawful irrespective of your appearance of or actual innocence, and all of your motions, communications, and private information (like medical records) is subject to Federal monitoring. Also, if Federal Law Enforcement agencies need extra money, they can seize your property through civil forfeiture for no reason whatsoever and that too is reasonable and lawful.
5: Before being punished, you have a right to a fair trial. A "fair trial" means that the Feds can bully and bulldoze you beyond your ability to actually pay for that trial, and further, that a fair trial can mean a secret trial in which you are not told of the offense, not given an opportunity to defend yourself, and indeed, not even told that the trial is happening, from which there is no appeal, and once completed you will be immediately drone bombed.
6: You have the right to a speedy and public impartial trial, to confront the witnesses against you, to be informed of the crime you are charged with, and to have assistance of counsel. A speedy and public trial comporting with the 6th amendment, as that phrase is defined by the US Federal Government, means a secret trial in which you are not appraised of the charges against you, the evidence against you, are not allowed any representation, and you are not even informed of the fact of the trial.
7: You have the right to a jury trial. The US Federal Government reserves the right to hand select the jury, in secret, during secret trials.
8: Excessive bail and fines are prohibited. It is defined as not excessive if a Federal LEO needs extra money in which case all of your property is subject to civil forfeiture without reason.
9: Enumerating these rights does not mean you don't have other rights. Remember however, that the rights of Federal agencies trumps all other rights.
10: The powers not specifically delegated to the Federal Government belong to the states. Just as the Federal government defines "imminent" to mean "perhaps, some time off in the future", in this instance, the word "states" is defined as "Federal Government."
(Score: 1) by KiloByte on Thursday December 04 2014, @04:23AM
Not sure why you skipped 2nd, that's the amendment your govt holds in biggest contempt beside 4th.
Ceterum censeo systemd esse delendam.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Wednesday December 03 2014, @04:53PM
What if your newly adopted homeland has the freedoms of the Bill of Rights and great government services? I'm not an expat, but if I were, I would probably pick a country to live in in part for those freedoms and services. Sure, you could live in Guyana or Indonesia or Jordan, but I'd think more Americans would be happier living in places like Sweden, France, and Australia.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 03 2014, @06:06PM
"I'd think more Americans would be happier living in places like Sweden, France, and Australia."
Except of course those that whine about how high taxes are in the US...
(Score: 2) by Sir Garlon on Wednesday December 03 2014, @06:38PM
I guess people read the wrong intent into that paragraph. Seriously, France, Sweden, Iceland, Canada, and many other countries all offer comparable benefits to their citizens, so you may very well feel you're better off there. I shopped around myself and concluded that staying in the US is the best option for me, but you may very well come to a different conclusion.
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
(Score: 3, Informative) by FatPhil on Wednesday December 03 2014, @05:05PM
For example: If the USA charged $991, and 9 other countries charged $1 for renunciation, then the "average" would be 1000/10 = $100. So the US would only be 10 times the average. However, it's clear that the US is 110 times more expensive than they ought to be. A geometric mean of the non-zero data would be $2, giving a ratio of 445x, which seems to represent more closely how most people would view the disparity.
In the real world case, in the top table only, the arithmetic mean is given as $197. Treating the $0 as $1, the geometric mean is only $57. Across both tables, the geometric mean falls to $43.
Arithmetic means almost never give you a meaningful answer when there are highly-skewed distributions. Geometric often does, but some might say that chosing that was just as arbitrary as chosing the arithmetic mean. Fortunately, there's a way out - the most average of all averages is actually the median - its pretty-much immune from skewing by one rogue datum. The median across both tables appears to be $47.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 03 2014, @05:53PM
So the State Dept. are claiming...
Fantastic! My advice to anyone thinking of renouncing but maybe hesitating due to the high cost is to invoice them in return for the extra demand on your time and all the extra workload you rack up to provide them with the data they intend to process. Just enclose a copy of the invoice with any requested documentation, they can't claim they didn't receive it if they have everything else you sent them. Once they have received your invoice take a very discrete vacation so that your home is empty during the inevitable drone strike.
Cons: You'll probably need a new home.
Pros: Because they'll know no better, the State Dept. will consider you dead and call off the debt collectors.
(Score: 2) by emg on Thursday December 04 2014, @02:35AM
Couldn't you just declare yourself dead, and save all the hassle?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 04 2014, @12:53PM
Don't they practice sarcasm where you live?
You poor, poor creature.