Algebra is one of the biggest hurdles to getting a high school or college degree — particularly for students of color and first-generation undergrads.
It is also the single most failed course in community colleges across the country. So if you're not a STEM major (science, technology, engineering, math), why even study algebra?
That's the argument Eloy Ortiz Oakley, chancellor of the California community college system, made today in an interview with NPR's Robert Siegel.
At American community colleges, 60 percent of those enrolled are required to take at least one math course. Most — nearly 80 percent — never complete that requirement.
Oakley is among a growing number of educators who view intermediate algebra as an obstacle to students obtaining their credentials — particularly in fields that require no higher level math skills.
Their thinking has led to initiatives like Community College Pathways, which strays away from abstract algebra to engage students in real-world math applications.
-- submitted from IRC
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @04:27PM
"I invited you all out here for this advanced tutorial."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZocpwWLsyE [youtube.com]
"It's all about the money, boys!"
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @04:38PM (1 child)
As well it should be.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @04:41PM
You have that backward, friend. Not having a brain will get you ahead in life. Not having social skills is the obstacle.
The stupidest people are the most successful people. The people with brains either obey the stupid elite or die.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @04:38PM
But but but STEM jobs are the future! The only jobs are STEM jobs and every STEM graduate is a guaranteed millionaire, maybe even billionaire. It's guaranteed!
"Not a STEM major" doesn't even make any sense. There aren't any other majors.
STEM!
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @04:47PM (10 children)
Huh? I could do basic algebra when I was about 8 years old. And just what is the insinuation here with regard to "students of color"? Is this some retarded, common-core bullshit intended to deprive young people of the opportunity to develop lateral thinking skills? What exactly is the point of higher education for individuals who are incapable of algebra when it's simply the employment of abstract thought patterns to solve tangible problems? Why are we not, instead, calling for remedial math?
(Score: 2, Flamebait) by Ethanol-fueled on Saturday July 22 2017, @04:54PM (4 children)
California. They are proposing this because there are a lot of blacks and mexicans who are being held back by the man.
Its funny, because a lot of even cooking schools require calculus.
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Sunday July 23 2017, @11:07AM (3 children)
Calculus? Where in cooking would you need calculus? Arithmetic, sure. Algebra, questionable, but maybe. But calculus? Do they now serve infinitesimal portions? ;-)
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 1) by MikeVDS on Monday July 24 2017, @08:59PM
Part of education theory is that if you teach beyond what the student really needs to know, they will forget the hardest stuff but the easier things that you had to you over and over and eventually not even think about in order to do that hard stuff will stick.
I bet there are quite a few people on here who took some advanced calculus classes and forgot much of it (I am one of those) however the "simple" algebra and trig I had to use to solve those problems are still second nature to me. If I had gone further, that advanced calc would have stuck around longer.
Teach someone calculus and they will retain their algebra skills for life.
(Score: 2) by darkfeline on Tuesday July 25 2017, @03:39AM (1 child)
Cooking is chemistry. How do you model the heating of different materials with complex shapes and chemical compositions without calculus?
Note, I am assuming that we are talking about cooking as a respectable profession, and not cooking as in your local McDonald's or Denny's
Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Tuesday July 25 2017, @07:00AM
Maybe you should talk to a real cook. I can assure you, he doesn't do computer simulations of the cooking process. Now the production of industrial food, that's where serious chemistry and physics enters, as well as a lot of engineering. But I wouldn't call that cooking, even though it creates some sort of food. And the people designing those processes will have degrees in food chemistry, process technology and similar professions. Which you certainly don't study at a cooking school.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by frojack on Saturday July 22 2017, @05:32PM (1 child)
You've, (perhaps unwittingly, perhaps cleverly) hit upon the truth of higher education. Once past junior high, education is mostly a sieve. A wheat from chaff sorting exercise.
Any actual learning beyond highschool is merely coincidental to the training in how to think. Those who can't think the required way must be set upon different journeys - perhaps aboard the b-ark.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 3, Funny) by bzipitidoo on Saturday July 22 2017, @09:35PM
Perhaps Oakley feels it was a mistake to come down from the trees in the first place.
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Saturday July 22 2017, @10:51PM (2 children)
So what did you have at age 8 that everyone failing that course in adulthood, doesn't?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 23 2017, @10:46AM
Education!
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Tuesday July 25 2017, @02:19AM
Wait a sec -- in phrasing it that way, I may have answered my own question [wikipedia.org]. If you consider algebra as a fluency in a language rather than as a STEM discipline, it might mean that learning algebra after a certain age becomes *more* difficult.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by idiot_king on Saturday July 22 2017, @04:54PM (36 children)
Funny thing is, when things like mathematics, which serve no purpose to the average person outside of paying bills, doing taxes, or splitting checks, get taken out of college, it makes STEMsters uncomfortable. However, by the same token, learning how to interact with other individuals with kindness, specifically oppressed and unprivileged individuals (i.e., people you interact with every day, being women, PoC/WoC, trans*, Muslims, etc), which is a skill that you need in nearly every interaction with nearly every other human you meet is considered something that is totally unrelated to STEM. Why? It's because STEMsters are afraid of the truth of the matter, which is that they need skills that they don't have and aren't willing to learn. Learning how to purge yourself of ignorance is much more important in every day life in every way than learning how to manipulate letters and numbers with your mind. What's more, is that the skillsets of interaction can easily be learned, while often mathematical ability is something that cannot be nearly as easily learned. This perpetuates problematic power structures in places like the Academic Institution which has far too long valued the intellectual pursuits over practical application of teaching people how and why they are the way they are. If the STEMsters actually learned that not everyone is like them, then this would encourage them to help those who do not understand the STEM-related topics and at the same time encourage more participation of minorities in STEM fields, where inclusion of women, specifically WoC, is notoriously low because the STEMsters will start to see the importance of diverse opinions and ideas in the workplace and in research.
tl;dr: This is a two-way street. You could learn something from realizing not everyone is good at STEM, and that STEM could use a good inoculation against their assumption that what they do is a walled garden that doesn't need input from non-STEM fields.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @05:08PM (3 children)
I'm a STEMster and social skills are beneath me. Soft skills are for soft headed idiots. I'm blissfully oblivious to how much everyone hates me. I think people find me fascinating when I talk about myself. What I don't know is people are only pumping me for information they can use to mock me. People can't get rid of me through the usual social methods of mockery and shaming. I'll keep coming back until people resort to shunning and ostracism because nothing else works. I'm a STEMster and I can't understand why I always get banned from absolutely everywhere all the time.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @05:22PM (1 child)
I'm an introvert and I have a wide range social skills from glares of disapproval and boredom to fully fledged conversation enders. It's difficult to feel ostracised from people I find tiresome and fully intend to avoid interacting with.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @05:39PM
Is that the best you can do? I go on job interviews and give a reason-your-company-sucks speech which I lace with examples of my own technical prowess, and I genuinely expect to be hired. Of course every interviewer is a blithering idiot who gets offended instead.
(Score: 0) by fakefuck39 on Sunday July 23 2017, @09:23AM
actually, your sarcasm misses the reasons . these people are ugly from birth, they are made fun of and shoved into lockers, girls laugh at them. they decide they are going to be assholes and overcompensate by pretending they are superior. this comes after years of crying, and that's how they resolve the crying. smart has zero to do with being an asshole. being a loser ugly fuggo does.
(Score: 2, Flamebait) by SanityCheck on Saturday July 22 2017, @05:26PM (1 child)
How about people who are not going into STEM do not go to college, because it is waste of their time and our money.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @05:47PM
How about the opposite is happening, because people can see STEM is a dead end unless they smear shit on their faces and relocate to India and get an outsourced job.
(Score: 5, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @05:34PM (5 children)
Nice rant... feel better for beating the everloving shit out of that strawman?
Algebra is key to mathematical literacy. Understanding gives you the tools to reason about the relationships between numbers without being blinded by the figures.
In a capitalist world, people are going to try to trick you with numbers every day. Working out how much that car, that house, that loan REALLY costs and what happens if you miss a payment is important.
Anyone who tries to shortchange people on education, and claim it's in the students' best interest, is a cunt.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @06:14PM (4 children)
You had me listening, until you started to use four-letter words. Hint--they don't add much to any reasoned argument.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @06:39PM (2 children)
"Nice rant... feel"?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 23 2017, @01:20AM (1 child)
Or did he mean the very last word?
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Sunday July 23 2017, @11:16AM
Well, if he stopped after reading the last word, he did indeed read the whole thing, didn't he?
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 23 2017, @09:25AM
umm, no one gives a flying fuck what you think say or do - especially your opinion on how people should communicate. the four letter words he used have meaning and change what is being communicated. learn some inglish curryhead.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Thexalon on Saturday July 22 2017, @06:02PM (14 children)
An argument could be made that the entire global economy collapsed in 2008 due to the average person not understanding exponential functions, which are usually covered in the second year of algebra. The subprime mortgages that were getting advertised like crazy always focused on the low monthly payment, and not on what that would do to the total cost of owning the house in question. There was a reason for that: The way those loans were structured, it was extremely easy to end up owing more on the house than it was worth. This in fact happened, and that's a major reason why the loans stopped getting paid back. In other words, it was a massive system set up so that those with a knowledge of exponential functions could take advantage of those without that knowledge.
It's also not a coincidence that all of the applications you mentioned are financial in nature. One way to make math a lot more relevant is to put dollar signs in front of the numbers.
Calculus also affects more than you might think. For instance, designing highway exit ramps: To do it properly, you have to get it so there's a smooth curve that matches the driver gradually turning the wheel from straight over to the angle they need to go around the clover-leaf.
I'm not opposed to STEM people learning basic social skills. I should note that contrary to the stereotypes you are obviously drawing from, most of them do in fact have basic social skills. I should also point out that those who are intending to become engineers still have to take language arts courses, so it's not like your average computer programmer has never read Shakespeare or written an essay or learned the basics of history.
As for participation of minorities in STEM fields, I've worked with black people in those fields who were about as smart as their white counterparts. I've also worked with young black kids in the inner city who were extremely interested in learning about STEM, and college students who are trying to get started in the field. The interest is there, the opportunities to turn that interest into qualifications and a decent job are not. Even when a qualified black person gets a job in a STEM field, they are not paid as much as their white counterparts, nor have the same chances for promotion. STEM fields, like most other fields of study, are not remotely as meritocratic as their practitioners would like to believe.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @06:23PM (4 children)
> designing highway exit ramps: To do it properly, you have to get it so there's a smooth curve that matches the driver gradually turning the wheel from straight over to the angle they need to go around the clover-leaf
Nice try, but not the best example. See railroad spiral curve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_transition_curve [wikipedia.org]
While calculus is required for an exact solution, numerical approximations are plenty good enough for surveyors.
(Score: 2) by mhajicek on Saturday July 22 2017, @07:05PM (3 children)
Then why do I see so many that are done wrong?
The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @08:05PM
> Then why do I see so many that are done wrong?
Lack of algebra(grin)? Or, more likely, giving the job to a contractor without involvement of a qualified civil engineer?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @08:27PM
You say "done wrong", but do you know what constraints they were designing to? It's not all about minimizing various derivatives -- sometimes there's constraints on total space occupied (eminent domain means you can take what you want, but you still have to pay something for it); sometimes particular areas (e.g. wetlands, or property owned by well-connected individuals) must be avoided. There's quite a few ramps I've driven on that I just can't explain, but there's enough other "weird" layouts that I can see the (or a) reason for, it makes me wary of assuming all the ones I can't figure are just down to ignorance on some civil engineer's part.
(Also, get that "civil engineer" bit? Yeah, they have semester on semester of classes about dirt, but they're still a STEM field. Of course they took calculus.)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 23 2017, @01:50AM
If there are that many trains derailing on a section of track or sliding out of control, then they should fix the track.
Otherwise, it's probably not wrong, it's probably just not what you envision it should look like.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Saturday July 22 2017, @06:30PM (8 children)
It can also be argued that a big part of the global economy currently hinges on leveraged derivative contracts which are well beyond the understanding of anyone who hasn't made a specific study of them. We are rapidly working our way into a scenario where a handful of programmers are going to set loose a handful of algorithms that will trade more than the annual GDP every day in a complicated dance that anyone outside the implementation team will have a vague understanding, at best, of what's really going on - this includes the owners of the firms who profit (and lose) based on the success (and failure) of their algorithmic quants' implementations.
How many people understand, really understand not just trade sound-bites from CNN, global issues like energy supply, greenhouse gases, distribution of fresh water, or what it takes for their vehicle that they depend on every day to start and move?
Yeah, the financial industry pushed a bunch of predatory loans on a bunch of rubes who either didn't understand exponential growth, or more likely just didn't care - like, what's gonna happen? they gonna put everyone in jail when they don't pay back their mortgages? Really?
So, yes: education good.
Also yes: equivalent opportunity for all persons, both capable and incapable of skill X. If you can't do X, then you can't have a job that requires X - that's easy. X should never be made part of a "core curriculum" that basically bars people from the bulk of meaningful employment including things that have no need of X whatsoever.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by mhajicek on Saturday July 22 2017, @07:09PM (6 children)
If you can't do basic algebra you're probably only good for menial labor. I can't think of any professional level job that doesn't require algebra for propper planning.
The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
(Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Saturday July 22 2017, @09:35PM (5 children)
So, you've obviously never gotten any insight into how management works.
There is actual value in management, even multi-layered management - the value is in communication and coordination. You can master algebra and it won't make you one bit better at communicating with people above and below you in the organization. I'd go so far as to say: those who are really good at maths are often less likely to be good at communication, particularly with people who aren't as good at maths.
I knew a fellow from the backwoods hills of Kentucky, 35 years old, couldn't read or write much more than his signature, algebra was far out of his league, but he had a talent for managing the types of crews who install big conveyor belt systems. He would travel around the country to the job-sites where these big conveyor belt installation projects were being installed and manage the labor... got him over $100K / year in takehome pay + benefits. Now, being from the backwoods hills of Kentucky, I think he just might have wrangled a High School diploma for himself back in the 1980s, 'cause without one of those, nobody would trust you to do a job like he was doing, and last I heard he's still doing that job 10 years later.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by mhajicek on Sunday July 23 2017, @01:47AM (1 child)
Management requires basic algebra if you need to figure out how to efficiently allocate resources. I've been using it for production scheduling and all I'm managing are one CNC machine, one assistant, and myself. Anything less and you're just guessing. So I don't doubt that a lot of managers do get by without it, but then they're not doing their jobs as well as they could.
The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Sunday July 23 2017, @02:33AM
All the fancy figuring in the world won't make a damn bit of difference when your crew doesn't show up, or doesn't follow instructions for what to do first, or doesn't do what the drawings tell them to do. Yes, you need people who can do all sorts of math and engineering to design a conveyor belt installation, but you also need grunt labor that will work without air conditioning moving heavy equipment, drilling concrete, and assembling heavy hardware. You need somebody who can effectively manage these people, not just fire them when they do it wrong, but actually get them to do it right, and that has about nothing to do with math and everything to do with effectively communicating between the people who do know the math and engineering and the people who execute the work. Algebra, and apparently 2nd grade reading, are entirely optional in that role.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday July 23 2017, @04:01PM (2 children)
"You can master algebra and it won't make you one bit better at communicating with people . . ."
Sorry, that's nonsense. If you have people working for you who communicate mathematical concepts, and you can't understand, that's a problem.
" . . . above and below you in the organization."
And, that is a problem, in and of itself. Management believes itself to be above all the riffraff who actually earn the company's money.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Sunday July 23 2017, @09:13PM (1 child)
Like it or not, the world is organized in a bunch of pointy top pyramids, and the people at the top of those pyramids, largely, decide who gets to stay at the levels immediately below them. If you're an independent consultant, congratulations, you're now floating solo taking on tremendous additional risk for the privilege of "not having a boss," such risks include: lack of collective bargaining for things like healthcare insurance, regulations, laws and taxes affecting your industry, and laws affecting international competition for your business. If that's working for you, great - I did it for a while, but I really prefer the regular paycheck coming from one location instead of short unpredictable bursts of money coming from unpredictable locations.
So, I've worked with quite a number of bosses and underlings - my role has generally been "maths implementer" so, yeah, I try to "talk math" with people on the job, but - probably 90% of people I have worked with, both above and below, don't really get it, or if they do it's not really necessary for the conversation. The whole "strength in diversity" thing is really true, and many people are better at things outside the realm of math and/or science, and to have a successful business, you need all the skills, not just the ones you learn in school. Back at the independent consultant thing, to really pull that off well you have to be your own sales, accounting, billing, occasionally collections, marketing, legal, and a few other skills outside the actual job you perform for the client. Very few people are good at "all the things," which is one good thing (among so many bad ones) about larger companies where people can specialize in what they are good, or at least adequate, at and skate around the skills they are weak in.
If you marginalize too many people, you create a huge problem for society - and there are a LOT of people out there who never will get math, or spelling, or nuanced social skills, no matter how S L O W L Y A N D L O U D L Y you repeat it at them. There are many, many productive roles that sub-DaVinci level people can have in the workforce. One of the first things I think we should re-introduce to the schools system is the concept of developing peoples' strengths, rather than drilling them endlessly on their weaknesses.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 24 2017, @10:43PM
>Like it or not, the world is organized in a bunch of pointy top pyramids, and the people at the top of those pyramids, largely, decide who gets to stay at the levels immediately below them.
not if I can help it
(Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @08:25PM
> If you can't do X, then you can't have a job that requires X - that's easy.
Sounds like you are not familiar with the Peter Principle? http://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/peter-principle.asp [investopedia.com]
"The Peter Principle is an observation that the tendency in most organizational hierarchies, such as that of a corporation, is for every employee to rise in the hierarchy through promotion until they reach the levels of their respective incompetence. The Peter Principle is based on the logical idea that competent employees will continue to be promoted, but at some point will be promoted into positions for which they are incompetent, and they will then remain in those positions because of the fact that they do not demonstrate any further competence that would get them recognized for additional promotion. According to the Peter Principle, every position in a given hierarchy will eventually be filled by employees who are incompetent to fulfill the job duties of their respective positions."
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @06:18PM
I agree. Clearly the Algebra requirement should be replaced with Social Justice re-education camps, with topics such as:
(Score: 4, Funny) by Geezer on Saturday July 22 2017, @06:38PM
Yes, because social skills have electrolytes plants crave!
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Sulla on Saturday July 22 2017, @08:20PM (2 children)
- The bar is too high, some groups can't make it
- Well then we should teach them better, may--
- No thats racist you need to lower the bar
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 23 2017, @01:57AM
I grew up in the post-segregation period where they were initially trying to figure this stuff out.
The problem isn't the way that the classes are taught so much that certain segments of the population don't respect education and don't get their children ready for school before showing up that first day. Unfortunately, if you aren't already ahead when you show up, you're already behind.
Then there's the parents that do respect school, but simply aren't around to properly parent the children. Mostly because they're stuck working two jobs because the government doesn't provide actual poverty relief and assistance.
Lowering the standards for minority students is rather racist and counter-productive. It sends a powerful message that those students aren't smart enough to make it if they apply themselves and not only does that screw over the current generation of students, but it also screws over the next generation that's then raised by these people that think it's OK not to apply themselves at school
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Sunday July 23 2017, @02:38AM
Teaching them better isn't racist - sometimes teaching them better still doesn't work, regardless of race.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 23 2017, @12:41AM (2 children)
As a STEM person, I happen to think that both calculus-based statistics and calculus-based physics should be mandatory for high-school graduation. I would also require chemistry and biology, both at the AP level. I might also require economics. For a college degree, add a bit of signal processing and information theory: FFT, wavelet, etc.
So, we don't do that?
Fine. Ditch the Marxism classes, the anti-white classes, the anti-male classes, the dishonest history classes, the language classes, the poetry classes, and all the other worthless nonsense.
Even the best of that, language, is an economic loss. Less than 2% of the people who take a language in school end up fluent in it. (this is NOT counting the cheaters who were already fluent) Of those 2%, very few will find significant use for the language. There isn't any language I could have taken that would have proven valuable later in life (now 43 years old), and anyway I'd probably have picked the wrong one. Language is cool and all, but if you'd studied economics you'd know about the concept of opportunity cost. I'll never get back those numerous wasted hours of my precious youth.
I mean really ditch it. Ditch it in high school. Ditch it in college. I don't need to hear about Pocahontas or Susan B Anthony or George Washington Carver. I really don't. My boss will never never never pay me for a marxist criticism of a Maya Angalou poem.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 23 2017, @02:02AM
Clearly, you don't understand the concept of opportunity costs here. Calculus isn't required for high school with good reason. It's something that there isn't time to sufficiently cover in high school and it's not very helpful in the real world either.
As for fluent language, that's not really the point, the amount of class time available isn't going to lead to meaningful fluency, but with proper resources and support you can get students to the point where they can speak a bit. It's certainly a lot more helpful than calculus is.
The point of the language classes is that it broadens out the students' thinking and helps them to develop strong brains. It's much like PE and music that keeps getting defunded because it's taking time from the STEM obsession. But, all of those fields are necessary to maximize what little brain power people have.
Considering the way your post was written, I think you are confusing education with schooling, they're not the same.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 23 2017, @05:11PM
Oh wow, this rant here really explains why some of the SN population is so .... "Special"
Fucking arrogant twats
(Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Sunday July 23 2017, @03:42AM
We see here that you have that rare combination of superior talent - a dearth of both STEM and social skills. May that take you far.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @04:56PM (8 children)
There should be one university that is the best in all ways, everyone will be accepted, and it will be tought by angels.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @05:06PM
"tought by angels"
taught
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @05:11PM (6 children)
You graduate when you die.
(Score: 2) by BsAtHome on Saturday July 22 2017, @06:15PM (4 children)
I just received an angel PhD. Had to die three times over to get it, but it is worth the hassle. Major advantage are the student loans, as they were automatically dead upon death. Only drawback is that zombies/ghosts have a hard time to get a job.
(Score: 3, Informative) by RamiK on Saturday July 22 2017, @06:44PM
The trick is going Vampire -> Flesh Golem -> Skeleton Lich. It satisfies the triple death requirement and the side-effects are easily mitigated with a True Resurrection spell.
compiling...
(Score: 2) by tekk on Saturday July 22 2017, @10:10PM (2 children)
Fun fact: death doesn't relieve your family from student loans. The contract in my student loans says that the holding company "may" choose to discharge or reduce my debt in the event of my death.
(Score: 2) by tekk on Saturday July 22 2017, @10:12PM
Oh, and of course that's the only way that the debt can be reduced or removed according to the contract, since they made is so that student debt isn't forgiven when you go bankrupt. Hope I don't have a major injury right outside of graduating, right guys?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 23 2017, @02:05AM
Unless the parents or family members were stupid enough to co-sign the loan, the money comes out of the estate which probably has no money if the loan hasn't been repaid. So, technically, there's this zombie loan that exists, but there's nobody left alive that's legally responsible for it.
The only situation I can think of is if somebody has a large inheritance after graduation who dies prior to paying the loan off. Such a situation is rather rare and probably not something most of us have to worry about. I'd be more worried about dying with student loan debt than them trying to collect off my estate personally.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @06:16PM
Great we give the education system over to the church again, since that worked out so well before.... /0
(Score: 2, Interesting) by fustakrakich on Saturday July 22 2017, @05:15PM (3 children)
Political correctness will save us! I mean, what the hell, let's quit training pilots how to fly an airplane. Just don't disengage the autopilot [wikipedia.org]
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @06:25PM (2 children)
You should watch more of the series Mayday
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0386950/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1 [imdb.com]
and you will realize how many people have died due to poor design and training so degree's have not noticeably helped and often harmed, real life experience doing things is the only thing that really teaches you how to do X, siimply because people not only have to "know" they have to get it, deep down in their body, most people cannot listen to smart they can only listen to feel and people that are good at science and engineering feel it they don't think it, somehow they get body learning not just head leaning, your brain is bigger than your brain, your nervous system is a thing
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @07:31PM (1 child)
The days of flying "by the seat of your pants" went out with biplanes and the dawn of IFR. Your big brain probably couldn't even start the engines of an A300.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @09:04PM
No you should look at what the people you assume to be big brained do that flying by the "seat of your pant" went out of fashion is kind of the problem, confusing interface design and lack of basic piloting skills has killed thousands of people in avoidable air accidents.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @05:16PM
In a world where a 4 year degree is required to even be considered for a bank teller position that does not require you to know how to count to 100 I'm not sure anything more than subtraction is nessesary
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @05:28PM (13 children)
The biggest problem with algebra is people cannot connect it in any way to their lives, statistics people can connect with and it requires algebra to do, learn by doing not by "book lern'in" that works better for most people, teach to the student not to the subject is another axiom people seem to have forgotten since the 60's and 70's and 80's, but maybe it is to hard for millennials, who you go to their safe space and cry
BTW idiots millenials are born in the 80's not the 00's
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @05:52PM (6 children)
Idiot millennial born in the 80's here... this separation in maths education is already made in some places...
When I went to secondary school (in the Netherlands) they split maths in 2 groups after the second year: alpha maths (containing statistics and chance calculations) and beta maths (with algebra, charting, logarithms and derivatives). You were obliged to take Dutch, English and at least one maths class, but... choosing physics, biology or chemistry required you to have the beta maths. I went with the beta courses, and only had my first statistics lessons when going to university (studying biology).
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @05:59PM (5 children)
and?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @06:02PM (4 children)
Idiot Americans aren't obliged to study any language except English.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @06:09PM (3 children)
So your saying I should have to study Dutch to study Biology, OK it make about as much sense as studying algebra in isolation I'm sure that will lead to good results. even HUUUGGEE results
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @10:26PM (2 children)
I dunno, what are you saying, as in "you are saying", or contracted to "you're saying"? Maybe you should have to study English to complain about having to study Dutch in order to study Biology and learn maths.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @11:00PM (1 child)
Nice deflection but since you clearly understood me, perhaps you should study the history of English and answer my question before you embark on that clearly necessary and years long task
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 23 2017, @09:15AM
No, I did not understand what you were saying, because you are too stupid to spell what I can only assume is your native tongue. Your sayings are not my sayings, and evidently you completely undermined the point you were making by being too stupid to spell. This will not end will for you. And it sets a fine president for others, for all intensive purposes. I hope you can get a new leash on life. I lack toast and I'm tolerant.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Sulla on Saturday July 22 2017, @08:28PM (2 children)
Because they don't try. Algebra is everywhere.
http://www.basic-mathematics.com/algebra-word-problems.html [basic-mathematics.com]
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @09:07PM
That was sort of my point but thanks for playing!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 23 2017, @11:50AM
The first five are mental arithmetic and can be completed more effectively without algebra.
Then I simply skipped to the end and didn't need algebra for that one either and their solutions...
WTF is that? No wonder people are failing algebra if it's taught like this, the sane solution:
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @09:33PM (2 children)
Then again, at least to some algebra is about learning abstraction and abstract reasoning (which is what mathematics is all about).
If you go for "connect it with their lives" it might actually remove a significant point of the whole thing.
Though I wouldn't complain if it was replaced with something closer to university mathematics: logic, reasoning, proofs, ...
It wouldn't hurt for people to at least get a taste of this a bit earlier.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @11:03PM
Why knowing A+B=C does not cause me to become confused when I think coffee plus water == coffee I can drink
(Score: 2) by t-3 on Sunday July 23 2017, @01:39AM
In my school, "logic and reasoning" were taught in AP English, proofs taught in pre-calc (which I didn't pass (3 times, I really hated doing homework and it was 50% of the grade), I agree this should be changed to something more logical.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @05:28PM (5 children)
I can't algebra for my life, apart from bery basic stuff and I've never needed to do it beyond that. However I *CAN* form my problem into an equation and let my ti-89 do the thing computers are good at.
I'm an electronics engineer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @05:34PM (4 children)
a/b=c
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @05:48PM
Illegal lvalue
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @05:51PM
Error in a/b = c : object 'a' not found
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @05:54PM
ReferenceError: invalid assignment left-hand side
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @06:01PM
well done all of you
(Score: 4, Insightful) by bradley13 on Saturday July 22 2017, @06:08PM (12 children)
Algebra is a hurdle? You know, we could always start packing high school diplomas and college degrees in cereal boxes. That would solve the problem, no?
seriously: a diploma represents a certain minimal skill set. Algebra is part of that. While many adults may never need to solve the quadratic equation after school, the (rather small) amount of abstraction required to do algebra is useful all over the place. Need to scale a recipe? Need to figure out what your bank balance is likely to be in three months, if you get that raise, and save $X on expenses? That's all algebra.
If you cannot do basic algebra, you do not deserve a high school diploma. It's true that community colleges should not offer it, because they should *require* it. Ok, maybe they offer remedial courses, but such courses should not be part of any college degree program.
Not everyone needs higher education. Some people can and should stop after 7th grade or so, and go into the trades - into a hands-on apprenticeship type program.
Finally, the bit about "people of color". For whatever reason, the black community in the US suffers from poor education, not least because doing well is school is denigrated as "acting white". That's no reason to lower standards, that's a reason for the black community to get a clue.
Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @06:28PM
"You know, we could always start packing high school diplomas and college degrees in cereal boxes." Isn't that what sports scholarships are? You're too dumb for academics but you're overweight and can run so take this sports scholarship.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Saturday July 22 2017, @06:32PM (10 children)
If algebra is part of the "minimal skill set" - then the "minimal skill set" needs some serious re-thinking.
A huge part of the meat-staffed economy can be fulfilled by people who don't understand and will never get algebra. Keeping them out of the job pool isn't going to stop them from breeding, probably the opposite - think long term, please.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by mhajicek on Saturday July 22 2017, @07:19PM (4 children)
If those skills aren't required to do the job, then why is a diploma a prerequisite to getting the job?
The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
(Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Saturday July 22 2017, @09:22PM
A diploma encompasses a broad set of skills, some of which are required for a particular job, many of which are not.
You could put this on the employers and say they should simply test for the skills they need, but the education system isn't helping the situation much at all by a) lumping all the skills together for a single binary evaluation, and b) doing a poor job of evaluating actual mastery of the skills they say they evaluate.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @09:53PM
Because the majority of employers are ridiculous idiots.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by hemocyanin on Saturday July 22 2017, @11:50PM (1 child)
A HS diploma represents a demonstration that the person can A) show up most of the time and B) complete most of the rudimentary tasks asked of that person. An Associates Degree takes A and B to a slightly higher level and adds C) the person has some measure of self-motivation to go beyond the minimum required by society, i.e., a HS Diploma/GED. A college degree beefs up A, B, & C. A graduate degree suggests the person possesses a high level of A, B, & C, plus a threshold level of skill and passion which if not surpassed, would have kept that person from taking on the burdens of grad school. There will always be individual exceptions, but the exceptions don't really matter if this holds up for most grads.
Now, what you teach at the lower levels may or may not be pertinent to the final employment requirements, but it doesn't matter because the real lesson being taught, especially in HS, is to show up and work at something you don't like. The rest is just window dressing.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 23 2017, @12:57AM
> A graduate degree ...
I thought that a PhD meant that you were qualified to work on research projects without detailed supervision, set your own goals and meet them?
> because the real lesson being taught, especially in HS, is to show up and work at something you don't like.
But I liked high school math. Had some good teachers and the puzzles were, for the most part, entertaining. Geometry was a favorite and I applied this to mechanical drawing, where the 2D-to-3D (and reverse) exercises were also fun.
(Score: 2) by bradley13 on Saturday July 22 2017, @07:20PM (2 children)
Who said anything about keeping them out of the job market? I said "go into the trades". What is the point of removing everything difficult from a high school diploma? When everyone can get one, regardless of ability, it becomes worthless.
Of course, in the US that has already happened, and y'all are now doing the same thing to college.
Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
(Score: 4, Informative) by JoeMerchant on Saturday July 22 2017, @09:25PM (1 child)
Whoever named the Bachelor of Science degree was really prescient with the initials B.S. So many colleges and universities consider their students to be paying clients, and the customers get at least a C if they show up and don't cause too much trouble, regardless of whether they demonstrate any actual understanding of the subjects being taught.
Source: taught a senior level engineering at a private university for two years, tried to fail my students who simply didn't demonstrate ANY understanding of the material, was given a directive from the Dean's office more or less stating the above.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @10:00PM
This is why degrees can't be taken seriously. It's not just the K-12 system that is broken; so many people view education as job training and want a degree without even understanding any of the subjects, and then waste all of their time partying. If our colleges and univerities were actually decent, we'd be kicking such people out so they don't poison the academic environment.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 23 2017, @02:11AM
Cooking, driving, buying real estate, taking out a loan, paying your electric bill are all things for which you need some concept of algebra for in order to properly do.
It's obviously possible to get away without knowing it, I regularly see people at work learning basic arithmetic that are in their 40s and older, but it's certainly not something that we should reasonably expect from high school graduates.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 23 2017, @10:14AM
Pass algebra or get a vasectomy?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by arcz on Saturday July 22 2017, @06:17PM (10 children)
As a computer science student and the inventor of the monoque (a data structure similar to an SRA, also one you've probably never heard of), I believe that algebra skills are not quite as important as they may seem.
First, my experience in undergrad is that much more math is imposed on students than they actually need in order to grasp the concepts. One thing we need to be aware of is the difference between the concepts which mathematics teaches, which are important, and the formal human-developed notations for expressing and proving those concepts, which are not important to anyone who doesn't intend to become a professor.
Essentially, we focus too much on formalism (such as "proofs") and not sufficiently on whether or not someone understands the underlying concepts.
As long as you understand the rules in general, you can use a calculator to solve most problems. I think basic algrebra (think, equalities, addition, division, subtraction, etc.) are important. But you don't need to know the difference of cubes or the quadratic equation in order to be a journalist, for example. It's true that there are situations where that information is needed, but that's why people specialize. You probably wouldn't say that you need to know the difference between federal question jurisdiction, supplementary jurisdiction, and diversity jurisdiction, between in rem and in personam jurisdiction, or the difference between your right to remain silent and your right not to self incriminate. Even though you might be sued or charged with a crime, you can retain a lawyer if that happens. And if you really need to solve a math problem, you should be able to get help from a mathematician. We specialize because that is more efficient. I don't see why anything other than basic algebra is considered important enough that everyone needs to learn it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @06:41PM (1 child)
> you don't need to know the difference of cubes or the quadratic equation in order to be a journalist
But it would be nice if journalists understood dimensional analysis and had a working knowledge of physical units (including prefixes like milli- and giga-) so that comparisons made sense. Also, a better idea of ratios so they didn't confuse "percent" and "fraction" quite as often as they do.
Unless, of course, you believe that the purpose of journalists is to scare people...
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Saturday July 22 2017, @10:47PM
The purpose of journalists is to make people believe what the hand with the paycheck wants them to believe.
(Score: 3, Informative) by jelizondo on Saturday July 22 2017, @06:58PM (1 child)
Perhaps I’m misreading your position, but I recommend that you read “A Mathematician Reads the Newspaper” by John Allen Paulos [wikipedia.org] to get an idea of how badly journalists misinform the general public precisely because of their innumeracy.
I concur with the majority here: If you want a High School Diploma, you should have at least a basic understanding of mathematics beyond simple arithmetic.
Your example of getting a lawyer and consulting a mathematician is flawed. When I’m in trouble with the law I know I need a lawyer but I might be ignorant enough to know that I need to consult a mathematician to understand the Bell curve and its implications as demonstrated by Paulos’ column “Who's Counting: Testing and Hiring Disparities Need Not Imply Bias” [go.com]. Think how many newspaper articles have been written about racial bias without understanding the concept of the Bell curve.
Cheers
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @11:38PM
Gell-Mann amnesia effect
https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=17334&cid=450584#commentwrap [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @07:18PM
You reinvented Boost static_vector [boost.org] ?
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @09:43PM
I don't know what courses you attended that proofs somehow become "formalisms", proofs are about structured reasoning, learning how to carefully argue a point, starting from a clearly stated set of assumptions and coming to a conclusion. While the of course use mathematical terms, many proofs are just plain written text. If there is any formalism, it is about how you clearly state what you are proving and why you assume for that, but that's it.
It is one of the few skills taught in university that have actual use for a programmer. Understanding your assumptions, and from them proving and disproving things with JUSTIFIED confidence is of use whether you are implementing a complex algorithm or you are just debugging a mysterious issue.
(Score: 4, Informative) by cafebabe on Sunday July 23 2017, @01:26AM (2 children)
We're a tough crowd on SoylentNews but the monoque appears to have been added to Wikipedia six days ago [wikipedia.org]. If your data structure involves doubling allocations then it is at least 50 years old. If it involves Fibonacci numbers [wikipedia.org] then you'll be following Donald Knuth [wikipedia.org]'s memory allocation best practice from 1968 [wikipedia.org].
1702845791×2
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 23 2017, @01:44PM (1 child)
And non-notable original research does not belong on Wikipedia. Exaeta is tempting fate.
Here's the reference implementation: https://github.com/Exaeta/monoque [github.com]
Some benchmarking: https://github.com/Exaeta/monoque/pull/1 [github.com]
Benchmarking shows a monoque is better than a vector and worse than a deque.
It looks like a niche solution in search of a niche. Golly I wonder if Exaeta could sell the rights to Facebook.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 07 2017, @06:16PM
It's better for some things and worse for others compared to both structures.
SRA is a singly resizable array. It's not quite the same thing though, but I wont get into details.
It is niche, but it has application as a backing for a realtime priority queue, which it can do better than either deque or SRA. I never said it was an important data structure.
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Tuesday July 25 2017, @07:30AM
Well, at least language doesn't seem to be your strong point. The term "monoque" does not make any sense for this data structure.
"Deque" is short of "ddouble ended queue". A queue, also known as FIFO, is a data structure where you push data in from one side, and get it out from the other side. The deque allows doing that from both sides, therefore the addition "double-ended". It also allows efficient indexing, which strictly speaking is not a requirement for a queue, and didn't enter its name.
Your data structure is not a queue at all, since you cannot efficiently remove data at the opposite end of adding it. Therefore it makes zero sense to end it in "que". Your data structure is useful to implement a LIFO (that is, a stack), but not a FIFO (a queue).
And even ignoring that, prefixing "mono" makes no sense either. "mono" means "one". A "monoque" would be, logically, one queue. Well, how many else? Note that the analogue to "deque, but with only one end" would be "seque", "single-ended queue". Not that this would describe your data structure correctly; nothing ending with "que" will.
Neither has the internet as a whole, it appears. But then, SRA is obviously an abbreviation, and it might be an uncommon one. Maybe if you would tell us the actual name of that data structure? Or do you have a specific reason to hide that from us?
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.