San Juan submarine: 'Explosion' detected in hunt for Argentine vessel
The Argentine navy says an event consistent with an explosion was recorded near where a submarine disappeared last week with 44 crew on board. An "abnormal, singular, short, violent, non-nuclear event" had been detected in the south Atlantic, a spokesman said. The information came from an Austria-based anti-nuclear test watchdog, Capt Balbi said. It follows a report of a loud noise in the same area.
The ARA San Juan disappeared last Wednesday. More than a dozen countries including Russia and the US have sent assistance.
The new information was provided to the Argentine navy on Thursday by the Vienna-based Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty Organization (CTBTO), Capt Balbi said. In a statement, the CTBTO said two of its hydro-acoustic stations had detected a signal from an "underwater impulsive event".
Also at NYT, CNN, and The Guardian.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 24 2017, @06:26AM (6 children)
These fuckers knew what they signed up for.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Friday November 24 2017, @06:30AM (5 children)
No one volunteers to die. They "signed up" to do some very specific things, none of which included crash diving to the bottom of the ocean in a rusted out piece of shi.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Ethanol-fueled on Friday November 24 2017, @07:01AM (4 children)
the Jews did it. America will later blame it on the Russians. It will lead to another round of sanctions.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Friday November 24 2017, @09:14AM (3 children)
Sometimes, I wonder if the Jews are really your boogeyman, or you just post this shit for shits and giggles.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 24 2017, @12:12PM (1 child)
There are decent patriotic Jews, and there are WTF strangely self-destructive Jews (white yet hating whites, welcoming muslims despite the obvious result, etc.) whose self-destruction has the side effect of harming the rest of us.
Funny thing is, the decent patriotic Jews are now living in Israel as citizens of Israel. The USA got to keep the other kind.
(Score: 2) by frojack on Saturday November 25 2017, @08:15AM
The sub was built in Germany. So what does that say?
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 24 2017, @03:59PM
💩
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Friday November 24 2017, @06:28AM (12 children)
The military and the government knew these guys were gone the moment they heard that "explosion". The "explosion" was most likely the hull crumpling when the boat went below it's design depth. Bastards. They've had all of the next-of-kin holding their breaths, and praying to their favorite gods, for days now.
Next question: What caused the boat to sink? Lack of proper maintenance? Junky batteries, maybe? A valve stuck? A pump wouldn't pump water in the direction it was needed to go? I can say, definitely, that no nation can maintain a military if that country isn't investing a lot of money in that military. The stories all agree that Argentina has not been investing that money.
(Score: 2, Flamebait) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday November 24 2017, @07:41AM (9 children)
You sound a little triggered. What's your plan to MA(rgentina)GA then, Runaway?
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Friday November 24 2017, @08:58AM (8 children)
Triggered? I'm an old sailor. I'm pissed that government will waste men, then waste time lying to the next-of-kin. God damned politicians don't change much from one country to another. They send their best people into harm's way, then stab them in the back.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by bzipitidoo on Friday November 24 2017, @01:26PM (4 children)
The "accident" that happened on the USS Iowa in 1989 was certainly an exercise in telling bad lies. 47 crew dead. That was bad enough, but the Navy concocted this completely nutty story that one of the sailors was a closet gay turned suicidal over a relationship with another sailor going bad and deliberately sabotaged the ship, knowingly killing himself. Unbelievable. We all knew the military hated homosexuals. "Don't ask, don't tell." But this attempt to frame them for the disaster was a new low. It turned out that the Navy brass doing the investigating had every reason to cover up the true cause of the explosion, that being a stupid experiment with the powder that was already known to be a bad idea, but which some among them had pushed to do anyway.
Then there is the Russian nuclear submarine, Kursk. All hands lost despite that 23 had survived the explosions and lived another 6 hours. During the most critical first hours, when it might have still been possible to save those men, the Russian navy seemed more interested in cover up and denial. They probably were doomed anyway, but there was still a small chance had there been an all out effort to save them. Of course, better had they acknowledged that the fleet was not ready and never pressed ahead with the naval exercise to begin with. Ultimately, the ship was raised over concerns that if it wasn't salvaged, the nuclear fuel would eventually leak and cause a further ecological disaster.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Friday November 24 2017, @03:16PM (3 children)
Alright - you've got me feeling a little guilty for believing that story about the gay sailor causing the explosion. Why is/was the story so believable? Let me explain, this way.
The average ship's crew has an average age of about 21 or 22. That is, despite a few old sea dogs, the crew is mostly composed of kids. Kids do stupid crap. As they age, they do less and less stupid crap, but they have to survive long enough to age.
Gays aboard ship? Most of them were confused young idiots. Doing stupid shit all the time. The one, single gay sailor who was steady and reliable was thirty something. I guess age works the same way with gays. So, maybe, statistically speaking, gays weren't any more unreliable than all the rest of the sailor. I've never attempted to find any statistics. I only know for sure that every damned gay who worked beside me was a fucking idiot. People who contributed little to nothing to the mission, and took up space and time that would have been better used by someone with some sense.
Based on that kind of experience - yeah - I found it easy to believe that some confused fuckwad queer sailor had caused the explosion.
But - there isn't even any evidence that the man was gay, is there?
Hmmmm . . . food for thought.
https://www.hbmpodcast.com/podcast/hbm036-throw-it-in-the-ocean-explicit [hbmpodcast.com]
Listen to Petty Officer Chase's account of the day - I'm listening right now.
I did a separate search, trying to learn if Hartwig was gay, or not. First the Navy said he was gay, then the Navy said there was no evidence that he was gay. But, the atmosphere was already poisoned by the first statement. Those statements made by individuals read as contrived bullshit. AFTER being told by the Navy that some queer had killed almost fifty of your shipmates, an interviewer asks you questions? I can almost feel some of the interviewees trying to adjust to information that conflicted with their perceptions. It's just all contrived.
This guy says that Hartwig was NOT gay - https://www.salon.com/1999/08/18/navy/ [salon.com] Two problems with his version of events: he offers no evidence that Hartwig was heterosexual. He produces no ex-lovers, or anything. Second, he seems to be ignorant of any powder experiments, and that detracts from his credibility on the subject.
Ehhh - apparently, no brass was damaged. The Navy is happy. A few dead enlisted men, more or less, shouldn't cause an officer's career to founder, should it? (that last is sarcasm)
(Score: 2, Funny) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday November 24 2017, @07:05PM (1 child)
So that's why gay men bother you so much. I was wondering where the hell that stick up your ass came from; turns out it's a main mast. Your past and your psychological scars come out here in the weirdest ways...
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 24 2017, @11:30PM
You're a sick little girl, but you know that.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 24 2017, @09:11PM
"I guess age works the same ways with gays" lolololol
Oh man Runaway, that is precious.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by crafoo on Friday November 24 2017, @05:43PM
Yeah. Pretty much the same everywhere unfortunately. Marketing sells a grand vision. Procurement bids out necessary equipment to the lowest suppliers. MBA bean counters "cut costs", and with the help of dipshit program managers, underfund and accelerate schedule. Rules Lawyers and bureaucrats create 1000 page procedures and checklists. Then hire entire departments to manage the procedures and checklists. Now you have a half-funded, under-staffed, micro-managed, accelerated, poorly equipped situation. So what does management do? Hire 5 people with clipboards to follow useful people around and ask if they are done yet.
With large organizations there has to be some sort of mass event that triggers a firestorm. You have to burn out all the management and oversight departments. Sometimes this kills the organization.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 24 2017, @07:11PM (1 child)
I would like to take this opportunity to point out that quite often "triggered" is used when "pissed off" is more accurate. There are many times when people are mad and it isn't because they are just "too sensitive". At least Runaway is able to empathize with fellow sailors, truly the world needs more interconnection and sharing to inspire humanity across nations!
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday November 25 2017, @05:10AM
Please, this is self-serving, self-reinforcing ingroup thinking disguised as actual empathy. He doesn't give a shit except that it's "his tribe."
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2, Informative) by DeepBlueDiver on Friday November 24 2017, @02:04PM (1 child)
They first knew about the explosion just yesterday morning when it was reported by CTBTO. No one heard the explosion when it happened 9 days ago, in the Atlantic ocean, underwater, hundreds of kilometers from coast or from any other ship.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday November 24 2017, @03:20PM
My bad. I misunderstood what I read.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 24 2017, @07:50AM (7 children)
There are a few nations in the world with subs. When a nation decides to build and/or operate subs, the first thing they do is fuck up. People die. This is part of the learning process.
There are so many interesting failures!
We had one that attempted to go up. Pressurized gas was used to get water out of somewhere, and it was supposed to exit through little holes. Gasses become cold as the pressure drops. We got ice clogging the holes.
The USSR had one that seems to have suffered an explosion based on concentrated hydrogen peroxide in a torpedo.
The USSR had a reactor go bad.
There have been near misses. We hit a seamount. Somebody hit a whale, I think the US or UK.
Pretty much, you get people killed until you run out of ways to fail. It's a bit like orbital rockets.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday November 24 2017, @09:12AM (1 child)
We've lost a number of subs to enemy action. Not a large number, but some. But, we've also lost a couple in the learning process. Thresher and Scorpion both have places in the Mariner's Cathedral, as well as at Groton, Ct. And, Stickleback - lost in a collision with a destroyer escort - what we now call a frigate, in Oauhu, 1958. Dang, I never even heard of that one!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lost_United_States_submarines [wikipedia.org]
Prior to WW2, we lost 11.
During WW2 we lost 51, most of them "cause unknown", several due to enemey action and/or mines.
Yeah, there's a price to pay. I can't argue with you there.
(Score: 2) by frojack on Saturday November 25 2017, @08:58AM
But this was a German built sub from a not horrible design [wikipedia.org] by a competent shipyard, and based on designs used by the German Navy itself. It wasn't a crap design. Only two were built.
The reason for this disaster is probably piss poor maintenance, not a bad design. Losing your main batteries, probably to an explosion, in a submerged boat is seldom expected to be survivable.
Add to that uneducated farm boys with little training drafted into a Navy that still fancies itself as bad asses even though they got their asses kicked and their ships sunk in the Falklands Fiasco by a small force from 8000 miles away operating at the very end of their tether.
Why does Argentina have or need Subs? Pure adventurism? Dreams of avenging the General Belgrano?
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 24 2017, @10:37AM (4 children)
It's Russia, not USSR. And you mean the Kursk.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_submarine_Kursk_(K-141) [wikipedia.org]
The bottom line is, if you are in the military, you are more expendable than the rest of the population. And if someone is triggered by that, well tough luck. Military is about killing or being killed. This includes accidents. If you want less chance of being killed, stop supporting politics of exceptionalism and extremism and fear. Stop supporting realpolitik (aka, "fuck you, got mine"). Start supporting politics of cooperation and recognition that we, the entire bloody human race, is stuck on one planet with the same goals.
But if your brain stops at "my army bigger than yours" than prepare yourself for many many more deaths.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 24 2017, @04:01PM
You first.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by crafoo on Friday November 24 2017, @05:48PM
"[..] that we, the entire bloody human race, is stuck on one planet with the same goals."
But we are not. Hopefully not stuck on this planet. And most certainly we do not all have the same goals. Please stop representing this, "we are all the same but just live in different places and look a little different." It isn't true and it is an argument for people to make decisions against their own best interests.
(Score: 2) by frojack on Saturday November 25 2017, @09:02AM
We are talking about Argentina you idiot. Beef. Malbec. That's about it.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Saturday November 25 2017, @06:12PM
Expendable doesn't mean unworthy of respect.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 24 2017, @12:21PM (1 child)
...when we need him?
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday November 25 2017, @05:53AM
Last I saw he was tinkering in the garage with some oversize wooden airplane model while pissing into a jar. And refusing to cut his toenails.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...