Coding Error Sends 2019 Subaru Ascents to the Car Crusher:
Usually, news of an automotive-related software issue involves an error like last week's GM recall of 1 million SUVs and pickups because of a steering defect in their electric power-steering module. GM stated that the defect can cause a momentary loss of power steering followed by its sudden return, which can lead to an accident, and already has in about 30 known cases. GM says a software update to the module available from its dealers will fix the problem.
But a software remedy can't solve Subaru's issue with 293 of its 2019 Ascent SUVs. All 293 of the SUVs that were built in July will be scrapped because they are missing critical spot welds.
According to Subaru's recall notice [PDF] filed with the U.S. National Highway Transportation Safety Administration, the welding robots at the Subaru Indiana Automotive plant in Lafayette, Ind., were improperly coded, which meant the robots omitted the spot welds required on the Ascents' B-pillar. Consumer Reports states that the B-pillar holds the second-row door hinges. As a result, the strength of the affected Ascents' bodies may be reduced, increasing the possibility of passenger injuries in a crash.
Subaru indicated in the recall that "there is no physical remedy available; therefore, any vehicles found with missing welds will be destroyed." Luckily, only nine Ascents had been sold, and those customers are going to receive new vehicles. The rest were on dealer lots or in transit.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23 2018, @01:40PM (25 children)
I hope that by "destroyed" they really mean recycled (at least partially). Or are the really going to crush all those new engines, transmissions, wheels, tires, hoods, doors, seats, instrument clusters, electronics, etc...?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23 2018, @01:48PM (24 children)
It's probably cheaper to crush them than temporarily halt the production line to repurpose the parts. The decision would be that they will not risk potential injury or liability by allowing these bodies into retail channels.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by BsAtHome on Sunday September 23 2018, @01:56PM (18 children)
Yes, it is probably cheaper to crush them.
This will then be a perfect example of how we "value" our products today. When your product cannot be repaired at marginal cost, then you should be ashamed of your product. At least, that is the stance we all must take if we cherish our environment. The cost of a product should always include the entire cycle from raw materials to final destruction (and recycling) and all real, direct, indirect and associated environmental cost at each stage.
Lets stop the madness of a throwaway society!
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23 2018, @02:32PM (7 children)
Easy for people with no production manufacturing or assembly experience to pontificate. Reality is, you'll always get a percentage of product that is reject and the more complex the product, the higher the reject rate. The cost of fixing the rejects can quickly negate profit margins. Consider the parts count and QA / Test procedures for something as complex as a modern SUV and tell me you want product in the market that hasn't been subject to procedures that took many months to develop for the automated production line? Transplanting the engine, wheels and seats could be doable. If it is, that is exactly what they'll do.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Acabatag on Sunday September 23 2018, @07:25PM (3 children)
The more complex the product, the more modular the design should be. So that when there is a defect in the end product, a module gets scrapped, not the entire product.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Ellis D. Tripp on Sunday September 23 2018, @08:03PM
In this case, the fault was in the unibody structure that every other component is attached to, so no "scrapping the module" there. But almost everything else could be reclaimed given an effort.
"Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!"--Edward Abbey
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23 2018, @09:01PM
And if the cost for disassembly and replacing the module is higher than the cost of remanufacture? Just as a cheap printer is beyond economic repair, some products are beyond economic rework. Sad but true.
(Score: 3, Informative) by darkfeline on Monday September 24 2018, @05:37AM
>The more complex the product, the more modular the design should be. So that when there is a defect in the end product, a module gets scrapped, not the entire product.
To quote the parent:
>Easy for people with no production manufacturing or assembly experience to pontificate.
You don't honestly think that if it were cheaper to modularize and only scrap modules, that companies whose only goal is to increase the bottom line would not have taken that approach? Mass production is painstakingly optimized to maximize cost vs return; anything that is cost-effective to recycle will be.
Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
(Score: 2) by sjames on Sunday September 23 2018, @08:28PM (2 children)
So scrap it, don't crush it. That way, people with more free time and less dollars will eventually take the car apart to repair their car.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by pipedwho on Sunday September 23 2018, @09:44PM (1 child)
The problem is if they don't at least destroy the defective part (body in this case) beyond repair, some douche will buy up the 'scrap'. Then they'll think "hey look, it's just like a new car and no one will know the difference", and offload the car as a second hand/demo vehicle to an unsuspecting buyer (or a used car dealer - with their usual less than scrupulous behaviour). Car ends up in a fatal collision and law suits start flying around like mosquitoes in a stagnant swamp.
(Score: 4, Informative) by sjames on Sunday September 23 2018, @09:52PM
That's why salvage titles are a thing. Or they could spend just a few minutes with a sawsall cutting the roof off.
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Sunday September 23 2018, @06:06PM (9 children)
I agree 100%! One of the many problems is the huge word "NEW!" on products. It's a bit of an addiction I fear.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by acid andy on Sunday September 23 2018, @08:59PM (8 children)
Yeah that and the fact that people are actively shamed for not throwing things out that were "NEW!" a few years ago. They're now shunned as "hoarders" and laughed at by their peers. It's one of the most disgusting and insidious pieces of propaganda by the consumerist establishment in recent times.
If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Sunday September 23 2018, @09:24PM (4 children)
OhMyGosh, there are 3 of us! I have too much to say about this, but I'll keep it brief. I see 100% usable stuff being thrown in the trash all the time. I think it should be a crime to put it in landfills. Pass it down to less fortunate people. Near me is a new organization with a small warehouse and they're doing this. Not just Goodwill or Salvation Army or whathaveyou, more of a donation center.
My thought about these cars: give them to automotive tech. schools for the poor / unemployed. Teach them to disassemble the cars, weld where the welds are missing, paint, reassemble, and drive a nice new car.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by EETech1 on Monday September 24 2018, @07:25AM (2 children)
We had a brand new Cadillac in our Auto shop in highschool.
It had all the VIN tags replaced with something that said it was a donation, and not to be registered.
We got it because the steel used in the frame was not correct.
We just took the majority of the body off the car, and made it into a classroom learning tool for all those early 90s electronic systems.
There was also an old Impala that had the same fate.
Both donations from GM that provided hundreds of kids something to wench on in school.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 24 2018, @01:25PM (1 child)
Auto shop was a great thing in my suburban high school (c.1970), but the last time I looked it was gone. Does your old high school still have their auto shop?
(Score: 2) by EETech1 on Tuesday September 25 2018, @01:49AM
I just looked out of curiosity, and yes, there is still:
Power mechanics (lawn mower type) 1 semester
Automotive maintenance (1 semester)
Automotive mechanics 1 (full year)
Automotive mechanics 2 (full year)
Automotive technician 1 (full year at tech school)
They also have many more engineering / tech classes than when I was there.
(They got their first CNC Mill in 92 when I graduated)
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Monday September 24 2018, @05:51PM
Four :)
In fact, I'm typing to you on a PC built largely from used and salvaged parts.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23 2018, @09:33PM (2 children)
It's economics. Say household appliances should be repairable but that relies on the entire supply chain remaining viable and ignores massive improvements in efficiency. Are we going to compare a modern condenser clothes dryer with something built in the 70s? You would have replaced everything but the chassis by now and the savings in electricity alone make up for the cost of replacement. What about repairing that old VAX machine at $60 an hour plus parts when a Raspberry PI is more powerful for $25? Innovation happens incrementally which is why we're saturated with different models of every device at different price points.
For industrial uses, there's plenty of DOS stuff still running on 486 chips powering all kinds of machinery. We'll reach a plateau where we return to that for consumer products too. Certainly better than Apple obsoleting perfectly serviceable peripherals every 18 months when they get rid of yet another port.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23 2018, @09:36PM
To clarify I wasn't suggesting we return to 486's and DOS. Although there's the beginnings of some weird tech S&M cult right there.
(Score: 2) by Arik on Tuesday September 25 2018, @05:52AM
If it's a VAX I can get working using software, then it's a better deal than a pi that relies on blobs, no matter what the dollar pricing attached.
That's not comparing apples to oranges, it's comparing apples to poisoned apples.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23 2018, @02:37PM (3 children)
It might make sense economically to reuse a few parts that come off easily, for example take out the seats, just a few bolts each (and a connector for any that have a load sensor in them to switch the airbag on/off). Same for computers and the batteries, they usually come out easily. But the cost includes training a few people to do this and also figuring out how to work them back into the production sequencing (which is all automated, just-in-time, between suppliers and the assembly plant).
I was going to suggest front fenders/doors/hood/trunk-lid/hatch, but even if these are bolted on (likely), they are probably painted along with the rest of the body/structure, so wouldn't match if reused on a different car. Larger parts like these would best be saved by a
junk yardrecycler for future sale.Another option for re-purposing these cars might be to ship to a country with less stringent crash regulations...but that would be expensive to set up unless this plant is already supplying to other markets. And it's not the best foreign policy to ship out stuff that we've rejected on safety grounds.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23 2018, @04:01PM
I would sell them to a recycler(s) who could take all except the body.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by toddestan on Sunday September 23 2018, @10:26PM (1 child)
Another possibility is that they'll give them (or sell them cheaply) to Hollywood to be crashed and blown up. This has happened before - the reason almost all the cars trashed in the in the highway chase scene in Matrix Revolutions were GM cars is because GM had a bunch of cars they couldn't sell and it was a way to get rid of them. Supposedly the same happened thing with Knightrider, where the show managed to get a bunch of Trans Ams that couldn't be sold cheaply that they could wreck.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23 2018, @11:05PM
This is a big, heavy, luxury SUV more akin to a minibus. Not a car Hollywood are likely to use in action sequences but perfectly serviceable as a taxi in 3rd world countries where there's little chance they will be involved in high speed vehicular collision.
(Score: 4, Informative) by shortscreen on Sunday September 23 2018, @08:07PM
The parts wouldn't need to be reused in new vehicles. Once they sell some non-defective vehicles they are going to need a supply of replacement parts for maintenance.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23 2018, @02:20PM (3 children)
At a Japanese company. How does it get forgotten to program a weld? Nobody checks off the programs, or visually follows the first run through the line?
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23 2018, @05:26PM (2 children)
Oh, I don't know about that.
The Japanese company made a mistake that may increase the risk of injury if you crash, which affected 300 cars, they discovered the screw up with only nine of them sold, and are recalling the faulty cars to be scrapped and replaced for free.
Meanwhile, the American company's mistake can cause a crash, affected a million cars, there were at least 30 crashes due to the fault, and they claim it's going to be completely fixed with a software update.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday September 24 2018, @07:12PM (1 child)
The Japanese company could take a lesson from the American company.
Fix the missing spot welds with a software update.
Q. how many hardware engineers does it take to change a light bulb?
A. none. management has decided the software driver team will develop a patch to correct the problem.
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Tuesday September 25 2018, @06:27PM
Yes, simply limit the maximum speed of the vehicle such that a collision at that speed will not separate the affected panels. It won't help if another vehicle traveling at a high speed hits it, but, hey, that's their fault!
If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by mhajicek on Sunday September 23 2018, @02:28PM (4 children)
A far bigger issue than the robot progammer missing some welds is the quality control system that didn't notice. That means there could be dozens of other unnoticed defects.
The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
(Score: 2, Informative) by Acabatag on Sunday September 23 2018, @07:27PM (2 children)
You don't 'inspect' quality into a product after it has been produced. You design quality into it. That is the modern mantra of quality. QC inspectors are somewhat of an an-acronym these days.
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23 2018, @11:38PM
LOL. That's not the real world and you know it. [teepublic.com] In this case, unless someone caught the problem, Subaru were looking at a very expensive recall. I think you meant "anachronism", not "acronym". See, you didn't design the quality in there did you? Good thing you have me doing QC on your comment ;P
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday September 24 2018, @07:28PM
Think QA not QC. You don't control quality. You assure quality.
Yes, you design quality into the product.
But QA tests ensure that the expected quality is actually there. You might not need to inspect every individual unit. Even statistical random testing of some units might be sufficient to catch a breakdown in quality.
Despite a quality design, humans cause quality problems. MBAs say can't we replace this steel reinforcement strut with plastic? Assembly line workers screw off. Even robots are vulnerable to the humans who don't instruct them to spot weld properly.
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday September 24 2018, @07:15PM
If a defect is unnoticed, does it really exist?
If a tree falls in the forest . . .
If nobody experiencing the defect remains alive to report the defect, then can that qualify as "unnoticed"?
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23 2018, @02:37PM
Onboard software commonly has bugs that are found, and there is much more code involved in those systems. This is poor coding in what the technicians are having the factory equipment do to build the physical car. This is typically more QA/QC to avoid these types of issues. Equating these as the same issue because of code is silly. By that logic a 0-day flaw in your routers firmware is also the same thing because of code.
(Score: 1, Redundant) by Rosco P. Coltrane on Sunday September 23 2018, @02:40PM (7 children)
Nothing short of amazing considering we're still in 2018. I wonder if I can order the 2020 model already...
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23 2018, @04:04PM (1 child)
They usually start selling next year models before the end of the year. It's nothing new.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday September 24 2018, @07:16PM
If they are selling new year models before the calendar year even begins, then it IS something new.
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by nitehawk214 on Sunday September 23 2018, @04:19PM (4 children)
It is the same reason stores are filled with pumpkin spiced shit and Christmas decorations in July.
"Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
(Score: 3, Funny) by Pslytely Psycho on Sunday September 23 2018, @09:04PM (2 children)
I am already sick of the Pumpkin Spice wax scents, coffee creamers, etc....my wife loves that stuff so the moment it hits the shelves until Jan first..my nostrils are assailed with the various 'holiday spice scents/flavors.'
What really sucks though is to come home from work to a house that smells like fresh baked sugar cookies, only to find an empty cookie jar...and a fucking wax melt.
Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23 2018, @09:55PM (1 child)
Get a divorce and find a new wife who won't spend all your money on useless crap.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Pslytely Psycho on Monday September 24 2018, @12:34AM
36 years invested, great woman. All of us have quirks that annoy our spouses. I would list mine, but I don't have hours to devote to creating it. Oh, did I mention, she brings a fair portion of the money in as well. She puts up with me and my sports car addictions, I can put up with pumpkin spice wax melts.
If you can't get past such a small thing, don't get married as it can only end in tears.
Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 24 2018, @05:19PM
In July?! That means we need to get the War on Christmas bullshit started at least in May!
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Sunday September 23 2018, @02:43PM (20 children)
Don't they mean that nobody can be bothered / trusted to properly implement a procedure to strip down the affected areas of the vehicles, weld it up and re-assemble?
People weld up far worse areas of weakness to save classic cars and at least in this case the exact location and nature of the problem is known in advance.
If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
(Score: 2) by Arik on Sunday September 23 2018, @02:55PM (14 children)
Making that line total bullshit of course. No physical remedy? Easy, obvious physical remedy.
So, I think of two possibilities. There's a lot more wrong than they're telling us. Or they're so brittle in terms of skills that they can't come handle a job a high school shop class could do, when it's ever so slightly outside of their daily routine.
Perhaps even a mix of both. Maybe the spot welds are the only problem they *know* about, but QA broke down and they are worried there are more serious issues. That might justify this response - but again it kind of assumes a shocking lack of competence at the factory, to have zero confidence in their ability to re-check the cars out of process.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23 2018, @03:10PM (6 children)
Not that the location of the missing spot welds may be inaccessible in the completed product or that a hack repair would require extensive (and costly) retesting for safety?
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Sunday September 23 2018, @03:16PM
I'm thinking this is mostly likely the root of the issue. It's a legal ass covering exercise.
If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
(Score: 2) by Arik on Sunday September 23 2018, @03:43PM (4 children)
A problem any number of amateur car enthusiasts have solved over and over again.
"a hack repair would require extensive (and costly) retesting for safety?"
I suspect that's more to the point. We live in a society where it's much safer to throw man-years worth of work into the crusher rather than take the slightest risk that someone who doesn't understand how things work might come along later and place blame on you.
Lack of competence, if it's in play, would be a not-entirely-separate thing; years of operating in such a constrictive environment results in those competencies atrophying as they are never used.
That frame IS a pretty piece of engineering, and I could easily see them going to some lengths to make it clear these were not precisely standard and might not be absolutely 100% of what they should be. Just so there's no room to claim misrepresentation, though, not because there's really a safety concern. Even if we assume the repair would represent a significant reduction in strength versus the standard product it would still be more than strong enough for market, stronger than most vehicles have.
Even if they removed all the branding and sold them cheap to employees, that would be better than a total loss. Crushing them is just such a senseless waste.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23 2018, @04:28PM (3 children)
As I stated elsewhere, these techniques will not scale to 250 vehicles.
Many commenters are bagging on Subaru but they're making the correct choice from a consumer safety perspective. That deserves some level of praise, not condemnation. Yes, it's wasteful and we'd all like to see the parts from the existing vehicles repurposed. This may not be viable due to prohibitive rework, testing and insurance costs.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Arik on Sunday September 23 2018, @05:31PM (2 children)
As car makers go, these guys are among the best. I've been a fan of theirs since the 70s and I still am.
My point is not against them, but against the larger system in which they have to exist, which is why they're doing this.
"This may not be viable due to prohibitive rework, testing and insurance costs."
And this may be because those costs are artificially, and unnecessarily, elevated.
In fact may is probably too weak there, it seems well beyond doubt.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23 2018, @06:26PM (1 child)
A general point about the overall tone of the comments, by no means was it specifically targeted at you.
Owned a 2nd gen Forrester and it was awesome. The only Subaru I would have been seen dead in, also quite the realistic prospect considering the speed I could take corners in it. The 2019 model OTH - remove the turbo and add creepy facial recognition? [youtube.com]
I hear you, just do not think regulatory compliance as it pertains to planes, trains and automobiles is necessarily evil in the grand scheme of things. It's one area where both government and free market constraints conspire to make us all safer.
(Score: 2) by Arik on Tuesday September 25 2018, @05:43AM
But they don't, actually, because no free market exists there.
You're simply not permitted to offer anything that does not comply with the regulations. Ergo the market is not free. It's really as simple as that.
In an actual free market, though it might seem similar on the surface, the nuts and bolts would be quite different.
There would be no regulation outright prohibiting you from offering goods and services that do not comply with any particular standard. That is what the 'free' part means.
Some people will read that and quickly go insane - they'll read this as NOTHING STOPS YOU from offering unsafe or otherwise undesirable and subpar services as if they were the real thing, bad drives out good, race to bottom, it's all shit now you fool!
But that's not what I'm saying at all. There are still many things discouraging you from doing this - perhaps even more effectively than a flat prohibition would have, at least in the cases where we REALLY wanted those prohibitions enforced. For example, safety. We live, in this century, in the west, under what's called a regulatory safety system. There are safety regulations, and any product offered in commerce MUST meet them, period. That's supposed to protect consumers. And the other side - as long as you meet those regulations, you have a strong presumption against liability - that's to protect the manufacturers.
Well, the fact is, the latter are well protected, the former much less well served. You've no doubt been brainwashed to believe otherwise, you may have to consciously observe for some time to fully see that you've been deceived - but it's fact. This system is built to serve the manufacturer - to shield him from what he fears most - the common law of liability. It is essentially a sort of sleight of hand, or one might aptly even call it a con game; it is designed to give the consumer an illusion that inspires confidence, while protecting the manufacturer in fact.
A free market eliminates your regulatory regime, and in doing so it re-activates the common law of liability that the regulatory regime was created to suppress. This system, on balance, was far more advantageous to the consumer, and would be again. So your concern is not just misplaced it is truly reversed.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 4, Interesting) by RandomFactor on Sunday September 23 2018, @03:40PM (6 children)
Let's think through this from the company perspective (not from an individual owner's perspective)
1) Repair the vehicles themselves. This would be tearing the cars apart, manually fixing the welds, and then manually reassembling them at probably $15k+ per vehicle (it can cost $1k for a damned mirror replacement these days, but still...better estimates anyone?), fixing any scuffs and dings from this process to make them new-ish again, etc. Then selling them at a discount and then if there is ever a problem, get sued anyway. At best this might cut their losses a little but the downsides are significant.
It is also entirely possible the repair would entail destroying and replacing a bunch of interior or trim for additional expense, along with transportation costs, taxes, blah blah blah.
There is also a concept called 'opportunity cost' in play. The resources they devote to this salvage process would have been doing something else that presumably generates profit, and likely a lot faster than the profit associated with the vehicles being manually (inefficiently) salvaged.
2) Let others repair them. Sell something approaching 293 separate vehicles directly for external repairs by a bunch of shade tree mechanics. Transport, prepare and provide detailed repair instructions. Have the vehicles driven/resold unrepaired/poorly repaired and get sued anyway. Again big downsides, not much upside really.
3) Sell to salvage yards for pennies, have people buy and drive them and still wind up getting sued anyway.
Yeah, it sucks and a personal economic decision changes things if you can work one as a project on your own time on weekends and evenings for a few months, but I'm not going to fault the company for deciding to trash that batch and move on.
В «Правде» нет известий, в «Известиях» нет правды
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Arik on Sunday September 23 2018, @03:48PM (4 children)
I'm trying to point out the insane environment the company is operating in, by way of the insane decisions that result.
Perfectly rational for the company in the environment it is in; but utterly insane in a larger field of view.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 3, Interesting) by RandomFactor on Sunday September 23 2018, @04:02PM (3 children)
I recall my dad thinking about 'maintainability' in purchasing vehicles.
I'm trying to think of anyone I know that really does that these days. Hell the last time I told my wife to just pick up spark plugs and I would do them I got a pretty rude awakening at just how UN-maintainable a modern vehicle has become and wound up basically saying go have this done, I'm out (Drop the engine to swap plugs? Seriously???)
The ability to access and fix and maintain vehicles doesn't dominate the purchase time decision so the company goes a few hundred dollars cheaper and gets the sale.
Whatever happened to that modular phone?
В «Правде» нет известий, в «Известиях» нет правды
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Arik on Sunday September 23 2018, @05:05PM (2 children)
Everyone I know does.
Not everyone demands to be treated as fully human, of course. Those that do, are buying, restoring, maintaining older cars instead of buying new. But most are looking for some level of compromise - which means this is still one of the things they're thinking about, they're just willing to compromise it to a degree for convenience or whatever - but it's still a factor they consider.
"(Drop the engine to swap plugs? Seriously???)"
What make and model, seriously?
"The ability to access and fix and maintain vehicles doesn't dominate the purchase time decision so the company goes a few hundred dollars cheaper and gets the sale."
It's almost a half full half empty perspective thing as well though. It's horrifying how much of this crap people will put up with - but the other side is this IS actively driving people away from new vehicles in large enough numbers to boost the used and vintage markets very noticeably, and surely that's a sign that there is some hope?
"Whatever happened to that modular phone?"
The manufacturers figured out that they could get enough people to buy compromised crap at high profit margins and then pay again and again and again through that, and therefore have no motivation to bring anything sane to market.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 1) by Acabatag on Sunday September 23 2018, @07:34PM
A Bell 2500 set is a modular phone. If you disassemble one, you'll find there are components with date codes going back years. When a phone was removed from service, it went back to a depot and was turned into components.
This was even more so the case on pre-touchtone 500 sets.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Pslytely Psycho on Sunday September 23 2018, @09:51PM
Buick Skyhawk, Chevy Monza, Pontiac Sunbird, and Olds Starfire of the '75-'80 model years were equipped with a 3.8 liter V-6 that was very large for the size of the engine compartment on these small cars. The result was that, in order to change the spark plugs on the right bank of the engine, you had to disconnect the motor mounts, attach a chain hoist, and lift the engine at least a few inches in order to be able to access those plugs.
My '97 Camaro 3.8L is easier to do the plugs if you disconnect the exhaust manifold, or better yet replace it with a header. You can do it without but I usually end up making a blood sacrifice to the NGK gods trying to get my sausage fingers into the tiny areas the set back engine requires to access the damned plugs. The number six can't even have a proper socket wrench placed on it. You put the socket on and use a thin open ended wrench to loosen and tighten as there is less than an inch clearance between the top of the plug and steering components.
If memory serves me I believe the old '58 'Squarebird' T-birds had the same problem with the rear two plugs being inaccessible without lifting the engine a few inches.
Yeah, engineers don't have to work on them, and mechanics don't design them. Lot's of cars are very difficult to do routine servicing on.
Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday September 24 2018, @07:23PM
New item for your list:
4) Damage the vehicles in a way that ensures they cannot be driven, then sell them to scrap yard. Cut the B pillow that has the defective spot weld. Or even simply remove it in a way that makes this not a vehicle that anyone would want. Maybe even causing body damage in the process. Something like a giant chain saw makes two quick cuts and remove the B pillar entirely.
To transfer files: right-click on file, pick Copy. Unplug mouse, plug mouse into other computer. Right-click, paste.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23 2018, @03:05PM
Your classic car example doesn't scale. Say you're looking at around $1M worth of vehicles that could easily cost an additional $330k in wages to part salvage. If it were your company, would you reclaim partial costs at negative profit or write down the loss?
(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23 2018, @05:34PM (2 children)
> ...properly implement a procedure to strip down the affected areas of the vehicles, weld it up and re-assemble?
This is not a classic car made from mild steel. B-pillars provide a large part of the strength to resist the side impact crash test, preventing intrusion into the passenger compartment. To keep them from being huge, they are made of special steel that gets its high strength from a combination of mechanical working (during stamping) and heat treating (some of which may be combined with paint baking ovens). The spot welding is done in the middle of this process, and as I understand it, the heat treating is required after the spot welding to develop/restore the correct properties (strength & ductility for crash energy absorption). These parts are highly optimized with a combination of predictive engineering tools (CAE) and actual crash testing.
In modern cars, damage to structural areas like that are often reason to "total" a car if damaged in an accident--not repairable back to original specs. This is not to say that some sleazy body shop won't try, but the manufacturer knows better.
(Score: 2) by shortscreen on Sunday September 23 2018, @08:42PM (1 child)
If so then it sounds like manufacturers are designing non-repairable bodies and this time they were the ones to be bit in the ass by it instead of the buyer.
(Score: 2) by Pslytely Psycho on Sunday September 23 2018, @09:26PM
Essentially that is correct. It is also the reason many cars are 'totaled' even for minor damage. You basically can't repair a crumple zone. Unibodies were always difficult to repair compared to full frame vehicles. Now any attempt to repair them likely reduces their effectiveness as a safety device even if there is no damage beyond a few missed welds. Salvaging seats, drivetrain (including wheels/tires) shouldn't be too difficult, and I don't believe they could be sold or re-used as new parts at that point, but could be sold 'used.'
Of course the question then becomes are those parts worth enough used to cover the cost of salvaging them. Due to liability, they couldn't just send them to a salvage yard and risk even one having it's title 'cleaned' and re-sold, so they would have to either do it themselves or oversee the salvage to be sure the bodies ended up in the crusher at minimum.
Likely a lot less expensive to just eat the cost.
At least they didn't try to cover it up.
Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Monday September 24 2018, @05:58PM
They could, likely it's not physically all that hard, but it's a liability thing. Their corporate insurance won't cover it because now it's a "salvaged" vehicle, so if someone wrecks and that point fails (even if not due to THIS welding error) look out class-action lawsuit, probably for $NNN-millions.
So what will really happen is they'll be shipped off to a parts recycler, which is where most of the end-of-the-line auction vehicles wind up already. The frame will probably get scrapped but everything else will be sold for parts.
And be grateful, because in ten years that may be the source for a hard-to-find part to repair your own vehicle.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 1, Offtopic) by ilPapa on Sunday September 23 2018, @06:42PM (5 children)
Since we're talking about pickups... Hey, I'm thinking about buying a 2015 Toyota Tacoma TRD. Since we moved to California, my wife has been saying we need a pickup. She wants an early-60s short-bed farm pickup because she thinks they're cute, but unless we make a lowrider out of it, that sounds like a hassle. What do you guys think? The TRD or a '62 Chevy Apache 10 shorty with a wooden bed?
You are still welcome on my lawn.
(Score: 1) by Acabatag on Sunday September 23 2018, @07:36PM (1 child)
Get a teal F-100.
But I am showing my bias.
(Score: 2) by ilPapa on Monday September 24 2018, @01:18AM
I don't know how well you know the central coast of California, but the car culture here is just crazy. I see these old F-100s all the time, some of them so tricked out you think Ed "Big Daddy" Roth must own it.
You are still welcome on my lawn.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23 2018, @07:48PM
Do you want to drive it or work on it?
I used to love my Norton motorcycles, but on average it was about an hour of work (maintenance I could do in my little shop) for an hour of riding.
I'll guess that a '62-anything will require constant attention, unless you bite the bullet initially and replace "nearly everything" with new/remanufactured parts. Plus the '62 will want gas with lead so you might be making occasional airport trips to buy a little avgas (illegal, but may be necessary to preserve the valves) and/or to find a pump with no ethanol (to preserve the carburetor and fuel system). Still, if you don't plan to drive a lot, the '62 could be a blast!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23 2018, @07:51PM
This Subaru is an SUV (actually a gas guzzling tour bus) and not a pickup. Guessing haul weight, being isolated in bad weather and fuel efficiency aren't massive issues for you? I'd focus on ongoing maintenance costs - why I now do 2 year leases.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Pslytely Psycho on Sunday September 23 2018, @09:32PM
'62 Chevy Apache 10 shorty with a wooden bed.
Hands down.
Ok, I'm biased, I work on classic vehicles as a hobby, but that Apache has a lot more soul and cool factor than anything coming off the line today. And it's easy to work on.
Get the valve seats replaced with modern hardened ones and avoid corn gasoline as much as possible and it will probably outlast you.
Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Monday September 24 2018, @12:08AM
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 24 2018, @05:22PM
I'm a bit surprised nobody has mentioned this yet...
https://xkcd.com/2033/ [xkcd.com]
This latest development puts XKCD #2033 into a whole new light. And to think it had previously been a commentary about throw-away phones and computers...