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posted by chromas on Tuesday June 18 2019, @03:14PM   Printer-friendly
from the two-minutes-hate dept.

Submitted via IRC for SoyCow4463

The FCC recently auctioned spectrum in the 24GHz band under controversial circumstances, as experts from other federal agencies warned that cellular transmissions in that band may significantly reduce the accuracy of weather forecasts.

When asked about the controversy at yesterday's Senate Commerce Committee hearing, Pai said that data provided by NASA and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) is faulty. He also criticized the agencies for raising concerns "at the 11th hour."

Calling NOAA's study "fundamentally flawed," Pai said, "For example, it ignores the fact that 5G will involve beamforming, essentially adaptive antenna arrays that will more precisely send 5G signals—sort of a rifle shot, if you will, instead of a shotgun blast of 5G spectrum."

Source: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/06/ajit-pai-says-noaa-and-nasa-are-wrong-about-5g-harming-weather-forecasts/

See also: 5G likely to mess with weather forecasts, but FCC auctions spectrum anyway


Original Submission

Related Stories

Global 5G Deal Poses Significant Threat to Weather Forecast Accuracy, Experts Warn 13 comments

Global 5G deal poses significant threat to weather forecast accuracy, experts warn

A long-awaited international deal governing how the world's technology companies should roll out 5G technology poses serious risks to weather forecast accuracy, according to data from federal agencies and the World Meteorological Organization.

Negotiators from around the world announced a deal Friday at a meeting in Sharm el-Sheikh, Egypt, for how to roll out 5G technology that operates using specific radio frequency bands.

Studies completed before the negotiations by U.S. government agencies such as the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, NASA and the Navy had warned that 5G equipment operating in the 24-gigahertz frequency band could interfere with transmissions from polar-orbiting satellites used to gather weather data. This could make forecasts much less reliable, the reports found.

Specifically, these highly technical analyses concluded that if deployed widely and without adequate constraints, telecommunications equipment operating in the 24 GHz frequency band would bleed into the frequencies that NOAA and NASA satellite sensors also use to sense the presence and properties of water vapor in the atmosphere, significantly interfering with the collection and transmission of critical weather data.

The NOAA report, for example, warned of a potential loss of 77.4 percent of data coming from microwave sounders mounted on the agency's polar-orbiting satellites.

The agency's microwave sounders operate at a frequency of 23.6 to 24 GHz, which is close to the frequency that the Federal Communications Commission auctioned off the use of for about $2 billion beginning this past March.

The key concerns about 5G interference focus on what are known as baseline interference limits, often referred to as out-of-band emission limits.

Previously:
Hurricane Tracking Technology is About to Regress 30 Years
Ajit Pai Says NOAA and NASA Are Wrong About 5G Harming Weather Forecasts


Original Submission

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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by NotSanguine on Tuesday June 18 2019, @03:24PM (5 children)

    News at eleven.

    This isn't just par for the course, it's several shots under par.

    It will be interesting to see how much Pai will be (is being?) rewarded by the telecoms for doing their bidding. Sadly, I suspect we'll never find out. More's the pity.

    --
    No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday June 18 2019, @03:34PM (3 children)

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday June 18 2019, @03:34PM (#857014) Journal

      But, but, but, isn't Ajit Pai a super scientist, or something? Part time neuro-rocket man, or something like that? We should all trust a Jit to know better than a bunch of wannabe scientists.

      • (Score: 3, Touché) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday June 18 2019, @04:04PM (2 children)

        by JoeMerchant (3937) on Tuesday June 18 2019, @04:04PM (#857032)

        Beamforming like a rifle shot... yeah - somebody needs to stand his head just off to the side of a 100kW beamformed signal and let that bullet of energy just whiz by his brain for a few seconds.

        --
        🌻🌻 [google.com]
        • (Score: 5, Touché) by MostCynical on Tuesday June 18 2019, @09:06PM

          by MostCynical (2589) on Tuesday June 18 2019, @09:06PM (#857176) Journal

          Evidence suggests that may have already happened..

          --
          "I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 19 2019, @03:51PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 19 2019, @03:51PM (#857484)

          I hate Pai as much as anyone, but you seem to be missing the point of the analogy entirely.

          sort of a rifle shot, if you will, instead of a shotgun blast of 5G spectrum.

          Rifle dispersion is typically anywhere from 1 to 10 minutes.
          Shotgun dispersion maybe from 30 to 150.
          Order of magnitude difference in width. As a ham, I've used exactly this analogy to explain why high-gain antennas are better for PTP links than dumping more power into omni or patch antennas.

          I haven't messed with beamforming, but this order-of-magnitude difference in beamwidth still seems more-or-less correct for comparing omni or sector patterns vs beamformed. If that's wrong, though, please correct me. Be happy to learn if you can demonstrate how it's wrong, and what a realistic beamwidth ratio is.

          stand his head just off to the side of a 100kW beamformed signal and let that bullet of energy just whiz by his brain for a few seconds.

          I'm honestly not sure what point you're even trying to make here.
          That beam-formed radiation patterns still have sidelobes? Well, so do sector antennas. Since neither rifles nor shotguns have sidelobes, I'm pretty sure the analogy had nothing to do with that.
          That the width of the main lobe is wider than actual rifle dispersion? Yeah, but the analogy is about the ratio, not the exact beamwidth.
          That 20 or 30 dB down on a 100kW signal is still pretty damn hot? Well, no shit, but it's irrelevant.
          That Ajit Pai is an obnoxious evil fuck who oughta microwave his brain for the good of mankind? I'm with you on that.

    • (Score: 5, Informative) by captain normal on Tuesday June 18 2019, @04:25PM

      by captain normal (2205) on Tuesday June 18 2019, @04:25PM (#857047)

      Pai is a lawyer and a professional lobbyist for the TelCom industry. I doubt that he knows very much about radio spectrometry or meteorology and his masters at Verizon and ATT could care less because...you know bidness and nothing should stand in the way of commerce.

      --
      When life isn't going right, go left.
  • (Score: 2) by SomeGuy on Tuesday June 18 2019, @03:45PM (7 children)

    by SomeGuy (5632) on Tuesday June 18 2019, @03:45PM (#857019)

    People's heads could be violently exploding left and right from using G5 or whatever and this guy would be claiming that there is no connection. Those cell phones have to sell, you know.

    • (Score: 5, Informative) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday June 18 2019, @04:07PM (6 children)

      by JoeMerchant (3937) on Tuesday June 18 2019, @04:07PM (#857034)

      heads could be violently exploding left and right

      I just said: somebody needs to stand Pai's head just off to the side of a 100kW beamformed signal and let that bullet of energy just whiz by his brain for a few seconds.

      This is what happens when "big picture guys" try to interpret tech speak, bad analogies and specious bluster. The better big picture guys vet their BS with people who know what's really happening before they go out and make statements... an art lost in the US executive branch since 2017.

      --
      🌻🌻 [google.com]
      • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Tuesday June 18 2019, @04:19PM (1 child)

        by bob_super (1357) on Tuesday June 18 2019, @04:19PM (#857041)

        > The better big picture guys vet their BS with people who know what's really happening before they go out and make statements...

        Of course they do.
        Ajit enjoys smooth Verizon 4G on his phone, so he can check his account on the way to the press room.

        • (Score: 1, Redundant) by DannyB on Tuesday June 18 2019, @04:37PM

          by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday June 18 2019, @04:37PM (#857056) Journal

          > Ajit enjoys smooth Verizon 4G on his phone, so he can check his account on the way to the press room.

          Ajit enjoys smooth Verizon 4G bribes on his phone, so he can check his account on the way to the press room.

          --
          People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
      • (Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 18 2019, @04:43PM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 18 2019, @04:43PM (#857060)

        an art lost in the US executive branch since 2017

        Actually, this art is lost in the US executive branch since 1963.

        • (Score: 5, Informative) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday June 18 2019, @08:24PM (2 children)

          by JoeMerchant (3937) on Tuesday June 18 2019, @08:24PM (#857167)

          this art is lost in the US executive branch since 1963.

          They didn't always tell the truth, and I didn't always agree with their opinions, but Obama, Bush Jr., Slick Willie, Bush Sr., Ronnie, and Jimmy, and more importantly the people they trusted in their cabinets, rarely - if ever - got up at a press conference and spouted a bunch of trivially refuted nonsense. Ford was a bit of a non-entity to me, and Nixon did seem to associate too closely with the Voldemort school of politics, but even they couldn't hold a candle to our current batch of executive idiots and their inability to connect facts with the sounds coming from their mouths.

          --
          🌻🌻 [google.com]
          • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 19 2019, @01:53AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 19 2019, @01:53AM (#857285)

            Turns out none of that actually matters to people.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 19 2019, @12:11PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 19 2019, @12:11PM (#857403)

            The sad part is how true this is, and how little most people seem to care. This difference is important and one can only hope this is not going to be the new norm for future administrations.

  • (Score: 2) by black6host on Tuesday June 18 2019, @03:53PM (1 child)

    by black6host (3827) on Tuesday June 18 2019, @03:53PM (#857025) Journal

    Further Reading 5G likely to mess with weather forecasts, but FCC auctions spectrum anyway

    Here's the link I believe was referenced:

    https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/05/5g-networks-will-likely-interfere-with-us-weather-satellites-navy-warns/ [arstechnica.com]

  • (Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 18 2019, @04:31PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 18 2019, @04:31PM (#857050)

    Is already about as accurate as the windows telemarketer telling me my (linux) computer has a virus.

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by goodie on Tuesday June 18 2019, @04:37PM (2 children)

    by goodie (1877) on Tuesday June 18 2019, @04:37PM (#857055) Journal

    Imagine how cool that would be:
    - Auction 5G to make tons of cash ("we work for you people!") and get greased up by lobbyists in the process
    - Have inaccurate weather forecasts because of it ("see, there is no climate change, these people can't even make accurate weather forecasts for tomorrow and you want to listen to them about climate change ?!?!")
    - Then unlock money to upgrade satellites and launch new ones ("see, we make our economy work and we have restarted the space race, we love space!")

    I don't see what the issue is here, it all works out!

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 18 2019, @08:22PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 18 2019, @08:22PM (#857165)

      Then unlock money to upgrade satellites and launch new ones

      unlock money?? It is painfully clear you have no idea how government money and budgets work.

      • (Score: 2) by Osamabobama on Tuesday June 18 2019, @09:04PM

        by Osamabobama (5842) on Tuesday June 18 2019, @09:04PM (#857175)

        No, you see, it's a video game. You have to do the menial tasks to unlock the substantive ones that advance the plot.

        --
        Appended to the end of comments you post. Max: 120 chars.
  • (Score: 3, Informative) by DannyB on Tuesday June 18 2019, @04:42PM (7 children)

    by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday June 18 2019, @04:42PM (#857059) Journal

    Some other1 countries which make up the other 96 % of the world's population also put satellites into orbit for various porpoises.

    They might not be happy about this, despite how political favors can be bought and sold within the US for the benefit of a few.

    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

    1Yes, there ARE actually other sovereign countries outside of the US.

    --
    People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 18 2019, @04:47PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 18 2019, @04:47PM (#857061)

      Some other1 countries which make up the other 96 % of the world's population also put satellites into orbit for various porpoises.

      They might not be happy about this, despite how political favors can be bought and sold within the US for the benefit of a few.

      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

      1Yes, there ARE actually other sovereign countries outside of the US.

      and dolphins and whales and ...

    • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Tuesday June 18 2019, @04:47PM

      by bob_super (1357) on Tuesday June 18 2019, @04:47PM (#857062)

      > Yes, there ARE actually other sovereign countries outside of the US.

      Huawei and Tehran would like to point out you're not actually wrong, but it sure doesn't feel like it.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 18 2019, @05:14PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 18 2019, @05:14PM (#857071)

      No, there are no other sovereign countries outside of the US, you just wish. In fact there are no sovereign countries, period, as apparently neither the US is a sovereign country. There are some rogue countries though, but we'll see about the "there are" part, unless those are just other puppets in the show, too, or rather, captured feral beasts for another kind of show - oblivious of the script, but nevertheless controlled.

    • (Score: 2, Informative) by hwertz on Tuesday June 18 2019, @05:16PM (2 children)

      by hwertz (8141) on Tuesday June 18 2019, @05:16PM (#857072)

      Just to debunk what Pai says, transmissions in a voice or data session to the device may be beamformed, but the paging channel and such ARE NOT. In analog (0G) up through 4G, the paging channel is transmitted in all directions. This is the channel the phone waits on when it's not actually in a call or data session, so it can be told when a call, text, or data is coming in, or start an outgoing call, text, or data. When nothing is going on, it only contacts the site about every 10-15 minutes (to save battery power mainly). Power control and beamforming are not possible without feedback from the phone (signal strength info and such).

      *Existing 2G-4G systems, even with no beamforming, do at least use power control to use the lowest amount of power to keep a clean voice or data signal; both for battery life purposes, and to reduce interference on the channel.

      ---
      On the other hand, is this 5G really going to bleed over 450mhz outside it's band? I do question whether this will really be a problem or not.

      • (Score: 2) by DutchUncle on Tuesday June 18 2019, @07:17PM (1 child)

        by DutchUncle (5370) on Tuesday June 18 2019, @07:17PM (#857143)

        >>> ... whether this will really be a problem or not.

        Good point. Hmm. I suppose TESTING it before allowing the situation to become a fait accompli would be too hard?

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 19 2019, @01:56AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 19 2019, @01:56AM (#857287)

          Quiet, they're creating jobs.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 18 2019, @09:32PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 18 2019, @09:32PM (#857183)

      If that 96% of the world does have a problem and doesn't deregulate the same bands, the phones might never be produced since they can only sell to 4% of the market.

  • (Score: 1) by Coward, Anonymous on Tuesday June 18 2019, @06:56PM

    by Coward, Anonymous (7017) on Tuesday June 18 2019, @06:56PM (#857125) Journal

    Scientists can be pretty obstinate if they decide something is a problem and they don't want to solve it. On the other hand, a regulator who is in the industry's pocket will be too cavalier about the risks.

    Astronomers have been impacted by unwanted light and radio emissions for decades. I guess NOAA types emphasize the public safety aspects of their work, but the willingness of scientists to over-hype their own work should not be underestimated.

  • (Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Tuesday June 18 2019, @06:57PM (1 child)

    by bzipitidoo (4388) on Tuesday June 18 2019, @06:57PM (#857128) Journal

    "Ajit Pai says"

    and that is all anyone needs to read. That's where I stopped.

    • (Score: 2) by krishnoid on Tuesday June 18 2019, @07:48PM

      by krishnoid (1156) on Tuesday June 18 2019, @07:48PM (#857153)

      No wait, he might have insight in his area of expertise that could be -- "NOAA and NASA Are Wrong About 5G".

      Like *that's* who you want to take on when you're trying to spin science to meet your lobbying efforts. Dude, just hit reset and try again.

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by DutchUncle on Tuesday June 18 2019, @07:13PM

    by DutchUncle (5370) on Tuesday June 18 2019, @07:13PM (#857138)

    TFA mentions NASA, NOAA, and Navy all raising questions. Surely within those organizations there are at least a handful of people who have just a *smidgen* more knowledge of radio technology than a lawyer with a social studies degree?

  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 18 2019, @08:53PM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 18 2019, @08:53PM (#857170)

    The NASA NOAA report is now inaccessable
    https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20190001950.pdf [nasa.gov]
    but is still in Google's cache

    • (Score: 2) by Nerdfest on Wednesday June 19 2019, @02:59AM

      by Nerdfest (80) on Wednesday June 19 2019, @02:59AM (#857308)

      Why would it be pulled, seriously?

  • (Score: 3, Informative) by doke on Tuesday June 18 2019, @08:53PM (1 child)

    by doke (6955) on Tuesday June 18 2019, @08:53PM (#857171)

    There are a few obvious problems with Pai's declaration.

    The millions of mobile client devices won't have phased array beam-forming antenna, or at least not very good ones. They will, in aggregate, form a massive, distributed, omni-directional transmitter. The NOAA satellites will be unable to look at any even lightly populated area without being subjected to these transmissions.

    A beam forming, phased array, transmission antenna is a very precise piece of equipment. That makes it very expensive. The carriers will cut costs, and use cruder arrays in the towers. This will cause scattering and leaks.

    Reflections will cause even more scattering.

    A beam forming array only _maximizes_ the output power in a particular direction. It doesn't _eliminate_ the signal in the other directions. It's not practical to completely eliminate the side lobes. Cost cutting, age, and alignment drift will aggravate those leaks.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phased_array [wikipedia.org]

    • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 18 2019, @10:30PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 18 2019, @10:30PM (#857215)

      the good news seems to be that 24Ghz CAN go alllll the way to orbit so coverage shouldn't be a issue ...

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