COVID-19 can cause worrying neurological symptoms like a loss of smell and taste, but Australian scientists are warning the damage the virus causes to the brain may also lead to more serious conditions such as Parkinson's disease.
[...] It has happened before.
Five years after the Spanish flu pandemic in the early 1900s, there was up to a three-fold increase in the incidence of Parkinson's disease.
Kevin Barnham from the Florey Institute of Neuroscience and Mental Health said he believed a similar "silent wave" of neurological illness would follow this pandemic.
"Parkinson's disease is a complex illness, but one of the causes is inflammation, and the virus helps to drive that inflammation," he said.
"Once the inflammation gets into the brain, it starts a cascade of events which can ultimately lead to Parkinson's disease.
Researchers outlined their concerns in a study published today in the Journal of Parkinson's Disease.
The process is known as the "two-hit hypothesis".
The brain gets inflamed from something like a virus, then something else comes along later causing more damage and eventually Parkinson's disease develops.
"Evidence is already suggesting the triggers for Parkinson's disease are there with this virus," Professor Barnham said.
Medical experts said it was too early to know how many people who had COVID-19 would go on to develop the disease.
"I believe the risk is real," Professor Barnham said.
"We can't put a number on it, but with 30 million people worldwide affected by this virus, even a small shift in the risk of getting Parkinson's would lead to many more people being diagnosed.
See also: Neurological consequences of COVID-19: The 'Silent Wave'.
Related Stories
Study shows a third of COVID survivors suffer neurological or mental disorders :
One in three COVID-19 survivors in a study of more than 230,000 mostly American patients were diagnosed with a brain or psychiatric disorder within six months, suggesting the pandemic could lead to a wave of mental and neurological problems, scientists said.
Researchers who conducted the analysis said it was not clear how the virus was linked to psychiatric conditions such as anxiety and depression, but that these were the most common diagnoses among the 14 disorders they looked at.
[...] The new findings, published in the Lancet Psychiatry journal, analysed health records of 236,379 COVID-19 patients, mostly from the United States, and found 34 per cent had been diagnosed with neurological or psychiatric illnesses within six months.
The Lancet article includes this disclaimer:
Big-data studies of this kind have intrinsic limitations, even when drawing on 81 million people, 236 379 of whom had COVID-19. In this pandemic context, not all individuals who are infected with SARS-CoV-2 (particularly those with mild or asymptomatic illness) will be diagnosed, which could result in some contamination of the comparison groups.
The question: will severe, enduring, and less common conditions such as psychoses behave more like neurological disorders or common mental disorders? Among the COVID-19 cohort in this study, a first diagnosis of a psychotic disorder was substantially more common in patients hospitalised with COVID-19.
Lungs, hearts and brains..
Journal Reference:
Jonathan P Rogers. A longer look at COVID-19 and neuropsychiatric outcomes, The Lancet Psychiatry (DOI: 10.1016/S2215-0366(21)00120-6)
Previously:
Experts Warn Coronavirus May Cause 'Wave' of Neurological Conditions Including Parkinson's Disease
2020-06-15 Roundup of COVID-19 (SARS-CoV2, Coronavirus) Stories
(Score: 5, Insightful) by acid andy on Thursday September 24 2020, @03:00PM (96 children)
Whether you're old or young, doesn't matter, if you can afford to do everything you reasonably can to keep avoiding exposure to this pathogen, I'd say it's best to do so. Long term effects cannot be known for sure now simply because they may not show up for years, but given they can utterly destroy your life, it's better to play it safe. Economies can be rebuilt. Dead humans can't.
If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @03:05PM (92 children)
You may be surprised to find that disregarding the economy can lead to dead humans too. Considerably more so if you're not careful.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Thursday September 24 2020, @03:29PM (61 children)
You may be surprised to find out that controlling a deadly disease effectively is even better for the economy than the plan to simply sacrifice everybody over 40.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Thursday September 24 2020, @04:09PM (49 children)
We've seen shortages, early on, in this pandemic. First up, masks, then ventilators, then toilet paper. That last seems to have been an artificially created shortage, set up to exploit the consumer. We still see shortages of medical alcohol. Hand sanitizers that contain alcohol seems to be readily available, but alcohol, not so much. I visited all of the stores in one of the local towns yesterday, and none had alcohol available. I looked at Amazon this morning, and I'm seeing prices near $10/quart, which is ridiculous.
The above should be enough to convince you that the economy needs to stay intact, to beat any epidemic or pandemic. When the economy shuts down, there won't BE any alcohol, masks, toilet paper, ventilators, or much of anything else.
I am anticipating food shortages this winter, TBH. Not starvation level shortages, this first winter after the pandemic struck. But, some things just won't be available, or the prices are going to be exorbitantly high. Meat packing plants have been hit, repeatedly, by COVID-19. What's next? China has stopped pork imports, based on suspicion that COVID-19 might be spread with the pork. I remember something about chicken - ahhh, yes, chicken wings imported by China from Brazil tested positive for COVID.
In today's world, with billions of people reliant on food import/export, what happens when the economy collapses? Mass starvation, like the world has never seen before. Can we dispose of 3 billion bodies, worldwide? And, how do the survivors recover from something like that?
I think some of you need to shelve your excessive fear of COVID, and concentrate on keeping things running. I, for one, enjoy being able to walk into the kitchen, and slap together a nice, tasty meal. If the economy collapses, my food supply is going to dry up, and I'm not really prepared to live off what I can grow on my property.
How about you? Are you prepared to live off the land you own?
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @04:19PM (2 children)
They won't understand it until we're there, and even then they'll only notice their Instacart bills increasing and their daily Zoom standup meetings getting considerably shorter as more of their coworkers get laid off.
Don't worry though, we're all in this together, right?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @06:32PM
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Friday September 25 2020, @02:54AM
You know, this is not a magic incantation that will protect you from Covid.
You need to actually make it happen. The sooner you make it happen and the closest to what is said, the faster you get back to safety.
Until then, I have money that I will not spend into your economy until it's not safe for me to do so - voting with my wallet, think what happens to your economy if there are lots like me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @04:20PM (8 children)
Lol fearmongering... I thought that's what you bitches complained we're doing .
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @04:39PM (7 children)
Not fearmongering, idiot. It's a simple warning, easily understood. Bringing the economy to a standstill today means you go hungry tomorrow.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Tork on Thursday September 24 2020, @06:21PM (6 children)
Mass die-offs due to pandemic will standstill the economy and also cause the situation you're worried about. Don't forget our economy is based on buying piddly shit we don't need.
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @07:06PM (5 children)
Mass die-offs, like in Sweden?
(Score: 2) by looorg on Thursday September 24 2020, @07:15PM (4 children)
What? The USA have more deaths the Sweden both in total and per capita.
https://platz.se/coronavirus/?lang=en [platz.se]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @07:36PM (3 children)
whoosh
(Score: 2) by Tork on Thursday September 24 2020, @08:28PM (2 children)
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 25 2020, @04:20PM (1 child)
Indeed. I haven't experienced it myself but I'm given to understand that the sound-effect of a self-own is more like the sound of extreme suck.
(Score: 2) by Tork on Friday September 25 2020, @04:55PM
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 5, Insightful) by cmdrklarg on Thursday September 24 2020, @04:43PM (29 children)
We wouldn't need to fear it if we could get idiots to take it seriously and do what's necessary to keep it from going completely out of control.
This isn't rocket surgery: wear a mask when around other people, wash your hands, and maintain social distancing when possible. Refusing because of "muh freedumbs" just shows how much of a selfish asshole you are.
The world is full of kings and queens who blind your eyes and steal your dreams.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @04:48PM (6 children)
How many months of mask wearing, lockdowns and overall acquiescence will it take to eliminate this virus, and why didn't we just do this to eliminate every other virus in history, back before global supply chains and widespread international travel? Wouldn't it have been even simpler back then?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Thursday September 24 2020, @05:17PM (4 children)
It doesn't work that way.
But that is a good example of the begging the question fallacy since the person you are responding to never said it did.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @07:06PM (2 children)
The "second wave" that the lockdown-happy locations are enjoying at the moment, was predicted by everyone sane right at the beginning as the result to expect from all that monkeying about. Remind me, what you and your brothers-in-crazy were promising then?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @07:12PM (1 child)
I thought the second wave was in June; what we're seeing now is either latent infections due to mass testing or perhaps a third wave because some governments have tried to delay the herd immunity that develops with every other virus that pops up every year.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @08:59PM
The first wave never went away since we didn't lockdown fully and too many people didn't take proper precautions. The first wave is when infections spike, you get it under control and infections drop drastically, and then it makes a resurgence when people think it is gone and return to normal. So far infections have only been climbing faster and faster in the US.
(Score: 0, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @07:10PM
Damn right it doesn't work that way. It is a pandemic, so by definition you either get it or a precious vaccine is discovered before you do so. Trying to avoid it is like trying to push back the ocean. Perhaps a viable course of action if you have nothing better to do with your life (like if you're retired and at real risk), but not for people working to keep their families (not really at risk).
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @05:45PM
Yeah! Everybody knows the Covid is all a conspiracy to force upstanding Christians into wear niqabs.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Thursday September 24 2020, @05:01PM (9 children)
I can only counter that it is NOT "under control". Despite all actions that government has taken, the United States leads the world in cases and deaths. It almost seems that our frantic reaction to the virus has somehow helped the virus to spread. For instance, who could have dreamed that forcing infected people into nursing homes (NYC) could have resulted in a bunch of old people getting infected? *rolleyes*
(Score: 5, Insightful) by cmdrklarg on Thursday September 24 2020, @05:31PM (7 children)
Oh bullshit... it's not under control because you have a portion of the populace that are convinced that it's nothing and don't do the right things because of "muh freedumbs" and other bullshit.
I agree that NYC and the nursing homes was completely idiotic, but the US is 1st because of the (in)actions of the Orange Asshole in Chief.
The world is full of kings and queens who blind your eyes and steal your dreams.
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @06:19PM (4 children)
I'm still waiting to get my freedumbs back that they took to keep me safe after 9/11. I wonder what freedumbs you'll ridicule in another 20 years.
(Score: 3, Touché) by Tork on Thursday September 24 2020, @06:40PM (2 children)
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @07:10PM (1 child)
Incidentally, masks are already technically illegal here, originally as a means of suppressing the Klan.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Tork on Thursday September 24 2020, @07:36PM
What I can tell you is this is the perfect opportunity to make mask-banning illegal in the USA because it's for a damned good reason AND it's likely another pandemic will happen again in the future.
The people making the 'freedom' argument to not wear masks are posers, if they were really thinking of fighting government tyranny they'd go in the extreme opposite direction. (Oh and they'd live longer, more time to gloat.)
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Thursday September 24 2020, @08:19PM
Freedumb: A freedom that dumb people believe in but that doesn't actually exist.
Example: The freedom to ignore my rules on my property and refusing to leave when I tell you to.
(Score: 2) by Magic Oddball on Friday September 25 2020, @12:53AM (1 child)
In some areas (like mine) everyone's wearing masks due to the law, but we're still facing repeated outbreaks because of the number of homes & apartments that have one migrant family per room, with each family having a couple of adults working minimum-wage jobs that expose them to the public.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Friday September 25 2020, @02:25AM
Deport the migrants, and maybe you wouldn't have that problem...
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by ilsa on Thursday September 24 2020, @06:58PM
"All the actions"? Did you seriously sit there, typing that post with a straight face? The US gov'ts actions have been composed of doing everything *other* than getting control of the virus. There was no "frantic reaction".
The lied, and continue to lie about the severity of the virus.
They actively undermine the CDC at every possible opportunity.
They've advocated use of medicines that not only don't help, but make the situation worse, so they could personally profit from it.
They've STOLEN PPE from regions that legitimately needed it, and then peddled it for easy profit like some kind black market thugs. They've openly admitted to do this intentionally in an effort to essentially commit genocide of "leftist" populations.
The list just goes on and on and on of all the things they've done that not only didn't help control the situation, but actively and intentionally made it worse.
You have absolutely zero excuse to not know all of this. Fox News is now facing lawsuits for intentionally lying about the nature of the pandemic.
Reading your posts and the extreme illogical contortions you use to make your "point" is nauseating.
(Score: 2) by crafoo on Thursday September 24 2020, @05:28PM (7 children)
Checked on the data from Sweden lately? By any chance? Hmmmm?
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @06:13PM (6 children)
You mean the European country with some of the worst stats? Still not as bad as the US though since they aren't doddering morons and the peoole wore their masks and enacted social distancing?
So they could have saved more people, but at leadt their citizens were smart enough to take the proper precautions. If the US had done the same we would be re-opening pretty safely right now.
Gee, I wonder which grouo of US assholes I should blame for making the pandemic worse. Hmmm hooo hummmmmmm.
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @07:20PM (5 children)
Like the 50 deaths they had over the last month? Horrible stats. You can't wage an election battle with facts like that.
Their masks? Sweden's government epidemiologist said they were not necessary in public: https://fortune.com/2020/07/29/no-point-in-wearing-mask-sweden-covid/ [fortune.com]
Unless you provide proof to the contrary, I'll assume people don't wear them "voluntarily" either.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 25 2020, @04:25AM (1 child)
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 25 2020, @02:27PM
Yeah? Where would I find those articles, the apologetic press in lockdown countries? They've been saying that for months to try to quiet down the skeptics in their countries.
Cited in Wikipedia:
And their coronavirus ExPeRt is opposed to lockdowns. So they would have to depose him and change the constitution, none of which are on the table. At 50 deaths in a month, what would really be the point. Doesn't seem like there is a major election looming.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Friday September 25 2020, @06:09AM (2 children)
Sweden [worldometers.info]
Infection Death Rate (deaths/infected) at 6.5%.
Australia 3.2%, US 2.8%, South Korea 1.6%, India 1.5%
Only 90,289 total infected from a population of 10M; no herd immunity yet, just under 1% of the population was infected.
Those damn'd swedes just don't want to get infected, they self-isolate voluntarily [newscientist.com] and don't want to participate in the economy [businessinsider.com.au]!!1one!! (GDP down 8.6% during the second quarter of the year, in comparison with Denmark at 7.4% fall, and Finland a 3.2% fall)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 25 2020, @02:28PM (1 child)
You still have not addressed the stats in his post.
Sweden "got it over with." COVID is basically over there. In other countries, we have chosen to "spread it out" over time.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Friday September 25 2020, @02:54PM
With only 1% of the population going through infection? And daily new cases in 300-400 range?
I really doubt it. See for yourself [worldometers.info]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @06:21PM (3 children)
Fuck you, bitch. Next you will be trying to force people to take the vaccines. Guess what motherfucker, that's when you Bolshevik scum start getting executed where you are found .
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @07:30PM (1 child)
Please, do explain what Bolshevik means in your context.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 25 2020, @06:06PM
Somebody who shovels a lot of boll.
(Score: 2) by cmdrklarg on Thursday September 24 2020, @08:15PM
Selfish asshole, check.
The world is full of kings and queens who blind your eyes and steal your dreams.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by sjames on Thursday September 24 2020, @06:30PM (2 children)
It seems like the best way to keep the economy going is for people to wear masks and observe social distancing, and avoid unnecessary gatherings. Exactly the things the people championing keeping the economy going refuse to do, much less mandate.
Time to prioritize, what's more important? Making sure there's enough food and medical supplies or eating out and catching a movie?
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @07:21PM (1 child)
Stopping the government embargo on our lives.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by sjames on Thursday September 24 2020, @09:29PM
So you figure there is no actual disease, just a bunch of gorevnors (including republican ones) embargoing your life for jollies?
On the bright side, with your head under all that sand, you probably won't spread COVID.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @06:50PM (2 children)
> shortages, ... then toilet paper.
To the first order: same number of people shitting before and after start of the virus, thus same overall consumption of tp.
I see two plausible explanations for the bare tp shelves at the grocery, maybe others have more candidates?
- short term hoarding -- but the shortages seem to be lasting too long for that?
- dual market streams have been upset -- fancy tp for home use and plain tp for commercial/industrial use is packaged & sold through different market channels.
To me the latter seems like it could account for most of the shortage for home use (retail). It's going to take awhile to re-tool the production lines, packaging in consumer sizes (instead of crates/pallet loads), re-allocate shipping/warehousing, etc. All the recent cost saving developments in computerized just-in-time manufacturing, shipping, minimum inventory, etc will be harder to change than older business systems (which had more waste...and thus more slack).
How many of you (now working at home) used to take your ~daily shit on company time, using company tp?
(Score: 2) by Muad'Dave on Friday September 25 2020, @01:59PM (1 child)
> same number of people shitting before and after start of the virus, thus same overall consumption of tp.
While technically true, it's not the whole story. Instead of a huge percentage of people spending 8+ hours/day at work (and pooping there), they were now doing it at home.
The demand for residential-sized TP went thru the roof, and the demand for commercial TP essentially dropped to zero. It wasn't just a matter of re-winding commercial TP onto residential rolls, either. They're different products and no such re-winding equipment exists. The supply chain didn't (and doesn't) exist to start sending commercial TP to local stores, either. The residential TP industry was running near capacity before the virus (otherwise they were wasting capacity) and couldn't absorb the added demand immediately.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 25 2020, @02:45PM
You don't think some enterprising Jew / Arab / Gujarati / Chinese would have made such a link if it was possible? If not even to the supermarkets, to small convenience stores they control?
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Friday September 25 2020, @03:09AM
Nobody shuts down the economy entirely, it only shuts down the non-essential part of it - which, in a "service based economy" is over 60% of "make work, overpriced convenience only".
And if everybody adheres to the pandemic counter-measures, it's 2 months worth of time.
If you wear masks and stick with the discipline (no "Muh libhurties allows me to infect you granda"), you don't even need to shut the economy or the borders, South Korea is doing it since the beginning of the pandemic - they started in Jan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Thursday September 24 2020, @06:57PM
To eliminate COVID-19 we need a functioning economy.
But a completely open economy will promote COVID-19.
Clearly there is a balancing act going on here. We need to close the parts of society and the economy that promote COVID-19 without shutting down the parts that help us survive and fight COVID-19.
It's a nontrivial balancing act, but it can be done if people will do what's needed. Naither a complete shutdown not a complete opening will accomplish what's needed.
It's why Canadian governments distinguish between essential and nonessential services when fighting COVID-19.
-- hendrik
(Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Thursday September 24 2020, @07:07PM (9 children)
The death rates don't really tick up until you get over 60, it's only the seriously diseased under 60 that have a significant death rate.
And we're not sacrificing everybody, just those who can't afford quality healthcare. The top 10% wealthy are protected by the BEST healthcare anywhere.
The frustrating thing to me is the amount of obfuscation and misdirection that seems to be going on around: what really is government policy? why are our agencies full of the best experts in the field being actively undermined in public opinion? when do they expect this quasi-shutdown to payoff as opposed to a New Zealand style disease knockout action?
50% shutdown for years seems to integrate to a much more damaging situation than 90% shutdown for a few months - unless you're one of those opportunity jockeys trying to bounce up the wealth ladder on the chaos of the situation?
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @07:41PM
Somehow, the jockeys bouncing up are already at the top, and coincidentally are relentless promoters of the present mode of "COVID-fighting". Cheer for the winning team!
April: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2020/04/27/billionaires-are-getting-richer-during-the-covid-19-pandemic-while-most-americans-suffer/ [forbes.com]
May: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/21/american-billionaires-got-434-billion-richer-during-the-pandemic.html [cnbc.com]
June: https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2020/06/22/us-billionaire-wealth-surged-since-the-start-of-the-pandemic-infographic/ [forbes.com]
July: https://www.businessinsider.com/billionaires-net-worth-increases-coronavirus-pandemic-2020-7 [businessinsider.com]
August: https://www.fairobserver.com/region/north_america/peter-isackson-american-billionaires-rich-elon-musk-jeff-bezos-bill-gates-business-news-american-news-69174/ [fairobserver.com]
September: https://www.thedailystar.net/opinion/news/the-pandemic-continues-the-rich-are-getting-richer-1965221 [thedailystar.net]
Let's continue the trend as long as they tell us to, shall we?
(Score: 3, Informative) by driverless on Friday September 25 2020, @01:03AM (7 children)
Also if you're only looking at death rates you're missing half the picture. Covid19 causes permanent organ/tissue damage, mostly to the lungs and heart but also neurological damage, so even if you "recover" you may end up with no quality of life, or ten or twenty years wiped off your lifespan. Friend of mine in his 30s "recovered" but is still wiped out, diminished lung capacity, extensive scarring on his lungs, and because of "this fucking country's third-world medical system" (his words) he can't get any treatment for it.
It's the gift that keeps on giving. No matter what your age, you really, really don't want to roll the dice with this thing.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 25 2020, @03:11AM (4 children)
Your friend (of a friend) and who else that would make that statement statistically sound as a considerable Covid risk?
(Score: 2) by driverless on Friday September 25 2020, @03:28AM (3 children)
It's quoting medical data, so it is statistically sound. The specific example of a friend of mine was just to provide an illustration of what's presented in the numerous studies and reports on this.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 25 2020, @02:33PM (2 children)
His data point of 1 does nothing to give us a rate of occurrence for these complications.
I know a few people who recovered with no problems after. The people who get over it don't complain and draw attention. The thing is, nobody knows how frequent of a problem this is.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 25 2020, @04:35PM (1 child)
Yeah, but I have a sinking feeling that in the coming months and years we will be finding out. My prediction: this is going to get much more ugly before it gets better.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 25 2020, @05:11PM
The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Friday September 25 2020, @09:08PM (1 child)
*Is* there any sort of medical treatment/remediation for scarred lung tissue? I mean, scars are what you get when you heal, but you probably can't exchange oxygen through scar tissue like you can through alveolar walls.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 25 2020, @10:08PM
Probably not, but most people aren't running marathons and can live with some lung impairment. Of which we probably all have more or less due to the other respiratory infections we acquired and overcame.
A fair share of the population tars over their alveoli several times a day with cancer sticks, and the majority are functional to old age.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by acid andy on Thursday September 24 2020, @03:30PM (11 children)
So I have a duty to work hard, spend hard and consume hard, even if I don't really need to or want to, otherwise everybody might die? Wow. You sound like an obsessive compulsion!
If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
(Score: 0, Redundant) by khallow on Thursday September 24 2020, @03:37PM (10 children)
How was that supposed to be relevant to:
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Thursday September 24 2020, @03:46PM (9 children)
I think the relevance is fairly obvious.
My advice concerned what's best for the individual. The free market should adapt to the market forces that are generated by those individuals. That sort of thinking should be right up your street, khallow.
Note that I did say:
If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
(Score: 1, Insightful) by khallow on Thursday September 24 2020, @04:06PM (8 children)
And I, of course, disagree. Nobody is demanding max effort from everyone. And the economy functions even when a portion aren't doing the max effort thing. Nobody claims otherwise.
What makes you think it works any other way?
True. You can also afford to "work hard, spend hard and consume hard, even if I don't really need to or want to". Careful about using the language of your oppressors!
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Thursday September 24 2020, @06:01PM (1 child)
Great, so working from home (or not working for a while), avoiding large gatherings, buying online rather than in a store is all good? If so, would you care to explain the relevance of the AC's response to my original post?
Well, the AC was talking about possible effects of "disregarding the economy". If all consumers, even those prioritizing avoiding COVID-19 exposure, are part of the free market (and by extension, the economy), then what would it even mean to "disregard" it?
FWIW there is one other way it can work, at least theoretically: off-grid, self-sufficient living. If achieved sensibly, IMNSHO, that could be better for humanity and actually result in fewer deaths over the longer term.
If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday September 24 2020, @09:22PM
You should be able to answer that without my assistance. But let's go through the exercise anyway. First, the above free market doesn't even exist, much less is the whole of the economy, which in turn is not merely a market. Even all "consumers" aren't the economy. So let's consider the great blob that's at the core of most of these differences, governments. All governments have some degree of non-market powers, for example, the ability to mandate mask or vaccine usage, shut down businesses for a time, curfews and quarantines, or the control of communication and information systems. Most governments don't have the full list of examples, but they all have some part of it. These powers are non-market because they aren't part of a market and are imposed involuntarily.
Such involuntary, non-market impositions are how one can disregard markets.
Yes, as noted above. In addition, you've been moving goalposts, here, a reverting to the original set you had when you first posted in this thread. It makes some sense to be concerned about whether harsh covid restrictions and other reactions, will result in an economy that can't feed people. But it doesn't make sense to conflate such concern to an insistence on work and consumption maximization.
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Thursday September 24 2020, @06:14PM (5 children)
If affording to do that involves paying with my life, that isn't a price I'd be willing to pay. I don't think others should be expected to sacrifice themselves either, to win a few percentage point increases of GDP.
If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @07:24PM (4 children)
You freeloading on my property while not working to pay the rent you owe me, hurting my life, isn't a price I'm willing to pay.
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Thursday September 24 2020, @07:40PM
Relevant, how? Also, khallow, were you too ashamed to put your name to this post?
If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @09:06PM
Which is why a moratorium on mortgages and rent should have been done. Or proper relief payments continuing till we can fully re-open. But nope, the GOP is a soulless husk of corruption so all the monies had to go to their wealthy buddies who didn't need it and laid people off anyway!
How you conservatives aren't pissed off at the ones in power right now......
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday September 25 2020, @12:55PM (1 child)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 25 2020, @02:09PM
And that is going to halt investments in rental real estate. No point, if you can't keep a viable business with a huge capital input.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @03:36PM
Yes! It's best not to wear face masks or you'll face the wrath of the economy [wikipedia.org]!
(Score: 5, Informative) by meustrus on Thursday September 24 2020, @03:41PM (16 children)
200,000 Americans are dead from COVID-19, and we probably aren't even half finished yet. The only way the economy could kill that many people is if the food distribution network collapsed. It's completely safe for farmers to keep doing their jobs regardless; truckers are somewhat less safe, but almost completely safe with masks and hand sanitizer when they stop at truck stops.
Even the opioid epidemic, which is only partially caused by lack of economic opportunity, kills ~70,000 in a year at its peak [nih.gov]. If you're looking at death rates, no realistic amount of economic damage is going to meet the death rates for COVID.
Of course, your stock prices will suffer, and the least successful businesses will fail. That's called Free Market Economics. If you think everybody in the market needs to be preserved through big downturns like this, you're not building a capitalist economy, you're building feudalism. And feudalism can kill, too.
If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @04:13PM (3 children)
That you think that shows how insulated from the effects of these policies you are. 1/3rd of US mortgages went unpaid in July. In May the unemployment rate had the worst jump since the 30s.
Enjoy your work from home job though.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @04:22PM (2 children)
Could that explain why rental signs are popping up all over the neighborhood and rents are decreasing for the first time ever? Bring it on.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday September 24 2020, @06:30PM (1 child)
That's more than a little silly. Let's imagine that rents fall to $25.00/month for pretty nice homes. But, you're not working. How you gonna get into a $25.00/month home, if you have no income?
Maybe rents and property prices need a huge adjustment, but you have to ask yourself: Who bears the brunt of this adjustment? It won't be the banks. It's going to be the individual home owners who pay.
(Score: 2, Flamebait) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday September 24 2020, @07:19PM
Awww, whazzamadda, did da ickle landlord get addicted to the commodification of housing...? Too bad, asshats. Work for a living like the rest of us.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @04:34PM (7 children)
Or if pension funds collapsed. Note that more than half of the 200,000 you brandish about, were 75 or more years old; what is the chance of people at that age surviving under a bridge for any useful length of time?
About half of the rest were 65-74 years old; how about chances of long-term survival for such as they after losing their savings and homes, with no job prospects?
Agreed, the writing on those future death certificates will be something non-COVIDy. Enough to write them off as "acceptable losses", yes?
(Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @04:35PM (1 child)
Great point, prepare to be modded 'Troll'.
(Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 25 2020, @06:57AM
Excellent prognostication. Expect to be modded redundant.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @04:50PM (1 child)
It may be harsh, but pension funds should be in great shape. Many of their pensioners are dying. By the time this is over social security should be well into the black too.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday September 24 2020, @05:11PM
Because the people managing pensions and Social Security totally learned their lessons about over-promising and over-committing? My take is that you could wipe out everyone over the age of 50 and these private and public systems would be right back where they are now inside of 50 years - sure it'd be great, if you were 49 and change and barely avoided the cull, but there would be a lot of young people for which this would suck.
The Logan's Run solution only works if you keep killing them oldsters.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @05:39PM (1 child)
If we take your figures at face value this still leaves approximately 50,000 under-65 (i.e., working age) dead Americans just over the past ~6 months.
50,000 in 6 months is about the same as the average rate of American military deaths during World War 2.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @06:46PM
About 40,000, if we extrapolate this: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#AgeAndSex [cdc.gov]
(and the nice round 200,000 figure looks a bit inflated; need to about triple the current rate to add another 11,000 between Sep 19th and today)
Of whom, more than half is older than 55. For those, the point of chances of survival in a collapsed economy still stands; the older workers tend to be first to let go, and with the worst prospects of finding a new job, even in a stable economy.
That script is old and tired. Ask the supervisor for an updated version.
Coincidentally, 47,173 was the number of suicides in 12 months of 2017: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm [cdc.gov]
A crashed economy is likely to cause some increase.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Thursday September 24 2020, @06:55PM
OTOH, that has taken a lot of pressure off of pension plans to continue paying the survivors.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @06:25PM
"200,000 Americans are dead from COVID-19"
what kind of dumb ass slave believes the Jew's "news"?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday September 24 2020, @07:16PM (2 children)
The degenerate case of capitalism *is* feudalism, and it's also an inevitability if capitalism is not properly regulated to save it from its own worst tendencies, because the profit motive is by definition self-accelerating.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 25 2020, @02:35PM (1 child)
Go sit on a hammer and sickle.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday September 25 2020, @05:33PM
Sorry, can't hear you through that heavy Russian accent, comrade. Come back when you have a cogent counter-argument...*if* you have one, which you won't ever be able to. My position is backed by empirical, real-world examples, both pro (Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, etc) and con (the US).
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @05:26PM
This is just another consequence of the vitamin C deficiency caused by covid
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2590098620300518?via%3Dihub [sciencedirect.com]
https://ccforum.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13054-020-03249-y [biomedcentral.com]
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6370430/ [nih.gov]
Measure the vitamin C levels in these people and correct the deficiency:
https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-52778/v2 [researchsquare.com]
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32828741/ [nih.gov]
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32709838/ [nih.gov]
(Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Thursday September 24 2020, @06:58PM
We all die, IMO something even more tragic (and damaging to the economy) is to live on for years in a highly damaged state - to reach a level of dependence on your family / friends / insurance company which requires more than full time care.
I saw a "thought shaping" article fly by from the British press talking about the terrible damage done to New Zealand's economy by their effective response to the pandemic. I say it's far too early to judge which approach is ultimately better for everyone - a short term recession is nothing compared to a long term serious disability load.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 25 2020, @01:00AM
We should ask Michael J Fox. 88 miles an hour? I always thought the guy was on shaky ground.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @04:05PM (5 children)
For one, "COVID-19 can cause worrying neurological symptoms like a loss of smell and taste" is totally disingenuous; loss of sense of smell is a well known complication of pneumonia of any kind. For which anyone with a search engine access can get plenty of stories from long before now. Like these from 2006, 2010, 2014:
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2006-04-09-0604090306-story.html [chicagotribune.com]
https://www.justanswer.com/medical/3b765-lost-sense-smell-taste-bout-pneumonia.html [justanswer.com]
https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/04/04/complex-and-dispiriting-loss-smell/0omdvxdprfvGx1kGR7J9mM/story.html [bostonglobe.com]
For another, no one mixing up viral parkinsonism and Parkinson's disease can be called an expert in anything except maybe scaring the gullible folk.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4642437/ [nih.gov]
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/parkinsons-disease/symptoms-causes/syc-20376055 [mayoclinic.org]
In short, any encephalitis is plenty of bad luck, if you survive you are virtually guaranteed some sort of complications, parkinsonism being one rather common. But thing is, COVID-caused encephalitis is itself quite rare; some singular cases get reported from among the infected millions, and that is all.
https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/928069 [medscape.com]
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ana.25783 [wiley.com]
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/9/20-2122_article [cdc.gov]
https://covidprotocols.org/addendum/encephalitis [covidprotocols.org]
Seems one has about a 1000 times more chance of just plain dying from the thing, than to survive to experience what the "experts" are selling.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @06:33PM (1 child)
Why is parent modded troll?
I didn't check all the references, but they mostly look like legit sources.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2020, @06:51PM
I guess that is exactly the reason. ;) Why let any pesky facts stand in the way of fearbombing?
(Score: 2) by looorg on Thursday September 24 2020, @07:04PM (2 children)
I found a somewhat interesting infographic for various flu and pandemics rated by their death toll. COVID19 is not even in the top 10, but closing in and could break into it fairly soon. I guess if you rated or adjusted it per total population as to when the disease/flu stuck the world population it would be falling in rating. If anything I guess it does show that we have become a lot better at fighting off diseases with out medical know-how and technological progress.
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/history-of-pandemics-deadliest/ [visualcapitalist.com]
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 25 2020, @09:40AM (1 child)
The GP had some informative sources and I agree that a lot of stuff is FUD. But numbers are numbers and you are just spreading misinformation. There are many saying to warn against your misinformation -- "don't count your chickens before they hatch" is just one. COVID has not infected more than a tiny portion of the population. Comparing it to others is disingenuous at best. It's well known that even in US, the death rate has been close to 2.5 - 3%, which is mimicked right across the globe.
https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019 [who.int]
These are the same numbers that China indicated back in February or March, where they said about 4% fatality cases.
If you now extrapolate the numbers to the world population, even cutting this by a factor of 10 for reasons like 40% have no symptoms and there are 2x as many young people as old in the world than in US, then you have 70% rate of infection before virus burns out and you have a very simple compulation.
7e9 * 0.03 * 0.7 / 10 = 15 million
and IF the assumption of 10x is wrong and we are really getting an accurate number of infected, then the above jumps to 150m dead.
You are completely ignorant with this statement. India's hospitals are running low on oxygen. Almost no one gets ICU.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/09/16/indian-hospitals-face-oxygen-shortage-as-covid-19-cases-surge/ [aljazeera.com]
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-54139112 [bbc.com]
China said 15% of the cases they had needed oxygen support. 15%! If you don't have oxygen, the fatality rate goes up from 3% to 10-15%. So adjust the numbers without interventions.
7e9 * 0.1 * 0.7 / 10 = 50 million
The you can play with the 10x multiplier.
China's leaders run the numbers and they did what had to be done. Everyone else, we get what we get.
If anything, COVID has shown how stupid we still are when dealing with a virus. Idiots protesting that "masks are infringing their freedums" -- well, the mask is the best we got.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 25 2020, @02:16PM
The figures as you understand them are likely incorrect. No one who gets asymptomatically or mildly infected is going to voluntarily report for testing and become a political football. And it is well known that hospitals have had an incentive of checking the "covid" box, how you get motorcycle crash victims to pad the statistic. AFAIK the CDC did say that only 5% of the reported death count had no other comorbidities.
Trusting China is a fool's game, they are well known to lie for national face. Unless you are in the Inner Party, you won't know the truth.