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posted by janrinok on Saturday July 02 2022, @09:50AM   Printer-friendly

We have had to activate anti-spam measures.

Only logged in users may comment. Registered accounts may still post anonymously but must first log in and then select anonymous posting. These measures will be revoked as soon as possible

** Some stories will accept AC comments without having to log in. They are marked [* AC Friendly *] This is part of an experiment to assess the practicality of mixed stories. **

[Editor's Note - This story has been moved up the display queue so that new arrivals can see what has been happening. JR 02-07-22 09:52 UTC]

This discussion was created by janrinok (52) for logged-in users only, but now has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
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  • (Score: 5, Informative) by mrpg on Thursday June 30 2022, @05:35AM (57 children)

    by mrpg (5708) Subscriber Badge <reversethis-{gro ... yos} {ta} {gprm}> on Thursday June 30 2022, @05:35AM (#1257101) Homepage

    Good.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by janrinok on Thursday June 30 2022, @05:37AM (56 children)

      by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 30 2022, @05:37AM (#1257103) Journal

      I am sure that there will be complaints but we feel it is the lesser of 2 evils.

      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Opportunist on Thursday June 30 2022, @06:22AM (11 children)

        by Opportunist (5545) on Thursday June 30 2022, @06:22AM (#1257112)

        Would you prefer complaints because of the spam?

        Personally, I'd say this is by far the lesser of two evils. We're not talking about a registration process that requires you to send a notarized copy of your passport...

        • (Score: 1, Troll) by ChaosGladiator on Thursday June 30 2022, @06:45AM (10 children)

          by ChaosGladiator (17558) on Thursday June 30 2022, @06:45AM (#1257117)

          I just heard from my good friend ********* that he is no longer able to post as an AC, and I must say that this is a loss to SoylentNews greater than whatever apk can repetively post. So I can only conclude, SoylentNews is officially dead.

          • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 30 2022, @07:19AM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 30 2022, @07:19AM (#1257119)

            Tell your good friend Ari to go back to sleep.

            • (Score: 1) by Martini_block on Thursday June 30 2022, @07:53AM (1 child)

              by Martini_block (17473) on Thursday June 30 2022, @07:53AM (#1257126)

              Goodnight, Paul?

              • (Score: 4, Funny) by janrinok on Thursday June 30 2022, @08:01AM

                by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 30 2022, @08:01AM (#1257127) Journal

                We wondered when you would spot that we had unbanned your account - and now you have confirmed who you are we have banned it again.

          • (Score: 4, Touché) by janrinok on Thursday June 30 2022, @07:28AM (2 children)

            by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 30 2022, @07:28AM (#1257121) Journal
            So you will be finally leaving then?
            • (Score: 0, Troll) by EdSurrey on Sunday July 03 2022, @06:29AM (1 child)

              by EdSurrey (17598) on Sunday July 03 2022, @06:29AM (#1257694)

              Who is leaving? Did I join too late to get all the inside references? Why is it so difficult to register a new account here?

          • (Score: 3, Funny) by FatPhil on Thursday June 30 2022, @07:34AM (1 child)

            by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Thursday June 30 2022, @07:34AM (#1257123) Homepage
            So you've finally become this? https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/southpark/images/b/b8/Professor-chaos.png
            --
            Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
            • (Score: 4, Funny) by Gaaark on Thursday June 30 2022, @12:15PM

              by Gaaark (41) on Thursday June 30 2022, @12:15PM (#1257161) Journal

              I was in a store (here in Canada) and heard a lady who sounded just like Butters. She talked NON-STOP and it was hilarious!

              Followed her around for a while for gits and shiggles but then had to go about my day. It was a good day. :)

              --
              --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
          • (Score: 2) by Opportunist on Thursday June 30 2022, @09:12AM

            by Opportunist (5545) on Thursday June 30 2022, @09:12AM (#1257135)

            I highly doubt that someone who can't even be assed to get a free mail address to get an account here is a big loss to anything or anyone.

          • (Score: 3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 30 2022, @01:46PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 30 2022, @01:46PM (#1257174)

            hunter2?

      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by deimtee on Thursday June 30 2022, @06:49AM (33 children)

        by deimtee (3272) on Thursday June 30 2022, @06:49AM (#1257118) Journal

        To be fair, you won't get many AC complaints if AC's can't post. :)

        If my vote counts for anything, I vote leave the measures in place permanently. I do think the ipid hash should be deleted after a while so that the comments eventually become truly anonymous. A couple of days should be plenty to id and ban spam accounts.

        --
        If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
        • (Score: 5, Informative) by janrinok on Thursday June 30 2022, @07:22AM (32 children)

          by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 30 2022, @07:22AM (#1257120) Journal

          I agree that there are benefits from having logged in users only - but it only prevents the Spam for now. There are other areas of the site that might still be vulnerable. While many ACs simply post crap many others do contribute positively to the site. I know of at least 2 who will not be able to access this site via their account because of where they currently are and the risks that they would face.

          The hash is used extensively throughout the database as the id for moderations, comments etc. If you read CmdrTaco's comments (which I have published in comments here many times) they simply used to use the IP address. He felt that it was unnecessary and changed it to a hash. He categorically states that it is not intended to be a security measure. We are unable to rewrite all (or indeed any) of the Perl software and do not have the resources to convert the database - a backup of which is currently many Gb of data. Without doing both the hashes must remain.

          Despite what people claim, with the introduction of IPv6 a rainbow table to decode IP addresses it is simply not possible, However, we have no interest in knowing your IP address, and especially not the IP address of a VPN. We DO NOT CARE who you are in the real world. It is also why we are very keen to prevent anybody else revealing personal information on this site about other users.

          When I log on to a certain part of SN I am talking to 2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fe6e:c4bf. Now if you want to go about cracking that then please do. SN switched over to IPv6 in 2016 and NCommander even posted about it.

          • (Score: 4, Insightful) by dx3bydt3 on Thursday June 30 2022, @12:13PM (15 children)

            by dx3bydt3 (82) on Thursday June 30 2022, @12:13PM (#1257159)

            I expect the quality of discourse should be significantly improved by this measure, and I have always been of the opinion it ought to be logged in accounts only.
            You mentioned knowing of two users that would face risks by logging in, but with the bar so low for account creation, I fail to see how see how posting from an account using a proxy/vpn/TOR or whatever would be any more of a risk than posting via the same methods as AC. There's nothing personally identifiable about an account. Am I missing something obvious here?

            • (Score: 3, Interesting) by janrinok on Thursday June 30 2022, @03:39PM (14 children)

              by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 30 2022, @03:39PM (#1257190) Journal

              There is PII attached to some accounts. They have chosen to use a recognisable nickname, or at least one that can be identified with a minimum amount of effort, or have included their personal website page as a link. Signatures and the bio often contain PII too, all of which is publicly viewable.

              • (Score: 2) by coolgopher on Friday July 01 2022, @12:30AM (4 children)

                by coolgopher (1157) on Friday July 01 2022, @12:30AM (#1257283)

                That stuff is all optional however, is it not?

                • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Friday July 01 2022, @04:20AM (3 children)

                  by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Friday July 01 2022, @04:20AM (#1257306) Journal

                  Yes - but how do they log in to change it without compromising who they are? Things were very different in our early days. Many users filled in their Bio details, or used their personal web site link as their contact.

                  • (Score: 3, Touché) by coolgopher on Friday July 01 2022, @04:30AM (2 children)

                    by coolgopher (1157) on Friday July 01 2022, @04:30AM (#1257308)

                    I would consider such accounts already "identified" by virtue of the information that has already been there. The internet does not forget, as they say. The smarter move would be to register a new clean account I would've thought.

                    • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Friday July 01 2022, @05:08AM (1 child)

                      by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Friday July 01 2022, @05:08AM (#1257310) Journal

                      They believe that they are OK until they make the link between themselves and that particular account. I do not pry into their particular circumstances so I could not, even if I wished, go into specifics.

                      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by coolgopher on Friday July 01 2022, @06:05AM

                        by coolgopher (1157) on Friday July 01 2022, @06:05AM (#1257315)

                        Can I just say that I appreciate all the work you do to consider things carefully before acting. Or well, type it. Post it. Eh, you get the idea I hope :D

              • (Score: 2) by deimtee on Friday July 01 2022, @01:04AM (8 children)

                by deimtee (3272) on Friday July 01 2022, @01:04AM (#1257287) Journal

                Even if they have PII on their accounts, aren't you guys the only ones who could track them down if they tick the "post anonymously" box?

                --
                If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
                • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Friday July 01 2022, @04:29AM (7 children)

                  by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Friday July 01 2022, @04:29AM (#1257307) Journal

                  Yes, only us, and the NSA, GCHQ, FSB, CCP and any other country which has an organisation that closely monitors and controls all internet activity. The risk occurs long before they reach our site. Not everyone is sat in a nice safe country, some are working in less favourable places.

                  • (Score: 2) by deimtee on Friday July 01 2022, @05:53AM (6 children)

                    by deimtee (3272) on Friday July 01 2022, @05:53AM (#1257313) Journal

                    Yes, but that tracking applies to posting anon as well. I'm not encouraging sock-puppets, but if they simply opened a second account with no PII that they only posted anon with, then they would be exactly as safe as truly posting anon.

                    --
                    If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
                    • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Friday July 01 2022, @06:22AM

                      by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Friday July 01 2022, @06:22AM (#1257317) Journal

                      They may decide to do that - I cannot speak for them. Or they might simply chose not to support the site until their present circumstances change again.

                    • (Score: 2) by acid andy on Friday July 01 2022, @11:41AM (4 children)

                      by acid andy (1683) on Friday July 01 2022, @11:41AM (#1257327) Homepage Journal

                      if they simply opened a second account with no PII that they only posted anon with, then they would be exactly as safe as truly posting anon.

                      Not if someone breaks into the server, uses backdoors or legislation or some other kind of "persuasion" to demand the data. Then they can see that all those anon posts came from the same account.

                      --
                      If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
                      • (Score: 2) by deimtee on Sunday July 03 2022, @09:32AM (3 children)

                        by deimtee (3272) on Sunday July 03 2022, @09:32AM (#1257712) Journal

                        Did you miss "New account with no PII."

                        breaks into the server, uses backdoors or legislation or some other kind of "persuasion" to demand the data"

                        Gets you exactly the same as a non-logged in AC post. An IPID that is a hash of the posting IP.
                        Yes, posting the wrong things in the wrong country will get you in trouble, but whether or not you logged in to SN before slagging off Pooh Bear isn't going to change anything. Either Pooh Bear can track down your IP or he can't. Logging in doesn't change that.

                        --
                        If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
                        • (Score: 2) by acid andy on Sunday July 03 2022, @02:34PM (2 children)

                          by acid andy (1683) on Sunday July 03 2022, @02:34PM (#1257760) Homepage Journal

                          But when you log into the account, the server will associate that account with that IPID, therefore someone with access to the server could determine that the anonymous post came from that account. Assuming this person wants to post on SoylentNews multiple times with that account, the attacker can then link the posts together as being from the same person and then start to build up a picture of them: their views, their style of writing, little bits of personal information they may inadvertently leak over time.

                          Knowing multiple AC posts came from the same account is a big deal. The only way around it would be for the user to keep making lots of throwaway SN accounts, which is highly anti-social, but could become a problem here soon if non-logged in ACs remain disallowed.

                          --
                          If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
                          • (Score: 3, Informative) by janrinok on Sunday July 03 2022, @03:42PM

                            by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Sunday July 03 2022, @03:42PM (#1257769) Journal

                            With regards to throw-away accounts, we daily receive a mixture of sock puppet accounts, spam, and bots. Of the last 500 accounts created only a handful have been genuine accounts. I haven't counted them recently (I seem to have been a bit preoccupied!) but I would say that certainly fewer that 8 have been genuine accounts.

                          • (Score: 2) by deimtee on Sunday July 03 2022, @10:15PM

                            by deimtee (3272) on Sunday July 03 2022, @10:15PM (#1257864) Journal

                            I don't know all the internals of SN, but one thing I have noticed is that if I make a logged-in AC post, I can't moderate it unless my ISP reboots and changes my IP address (which they seem to do quite often)*. That seems to indicate that IPIDs are only associated with an IP address, not an account.

                            *I don't mod them, but I noticed the option is there after yet another "reboot the modem to re-connect to the internet".

                            --
                            If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
          • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Immerman on Thursday June 30 2022, @11:40PM (8 children)

            by Immerman (3985) on Thursday June 30 2022, @11:40PM (#1257277)

            >with the introduction of IPv6 a rainbow table to decode IP addresses it is simply not possible

            Perhaps not at the moment.

            However, at the moment the overwhelming majority of users in the world still have IPv4 addresses, and you don't even need rainbow tables to brute-force hashes of that subset of the v6 address space.

            Moreover, the vast majority of the IPv6 address space is completely unused, and I suspect rainbow tables would be quite sufficient to span the tiny portion that's actually in use.

            • (Score: 3, Informative) by janrinok on Friday July 01 2022, @05:01AM (7 children)

              by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Friday July 01 2022, @05:01AM (#1257309) Journal

              But WHY would we want to do that? We don't care who you are.

              The majority of connections to the site are via VPNs or TOR. What good would knowing that last connection IP address do for us? Those people who wish to remain anonymous change their IP address frequently, often every few minutes. The only ones we know for certain have been confirmed to us by members publishing the details of the IP block messages that they receive from time-to-time. They have compromised themselves - it is nothing that we have done.

              Even if we just limited ourselves to IPv4 addresses, playing whack-a-mole with the range of IP addresses available is a non-starter. Part of slashcode/rehash can detect some forms of malicious activity and will automatically ban those attempts at the server for a specified time period. Only the sysadmins have access to the servers. I most certainly don't. Most of the very small administration team do not even see IP addresses ever. I can issue a ban to a hash value but it is a pointless activity - they will simply change their routing and we are back to square one again. It takes me longer to set up the ban than it takes them to change their IP address. Furthermore, VPNs and TOR connections are sometimes shared and blocking them prevents other users from making a connection when they have done nothing wrong themselves.

              If a malicious contact uses an obscure VPN thinking it is 'more secure' then they shoot themselves in the foot. Lets imagine that they use a VPN in Nosuchland, an obscure place that most people have never even heard of. They will most likely be the ONLY person contacting this site from that VPN. It doesn't matter how many other people use the same VPN for any other purpose - we are only looking at those who contact this site. We have a hash of the IP and the subnet. When they change their IP address it very often remains on the same subnet. Some of our most prolific trolls have been making this mistake for years. And as the number of active site members declines, they are even more likely to be easily identified simply by the subnet hash. They might have a bank of obscure VPNs but it doesn't matter - they are immediately identifiable by their hash - but we still will never know 'who' they actually are. We simply do not care.

              • (Score: 4, Interesting) by kazzie on Friday July 01 2022, @08:27AM (5 children)

                by kazzie (5309) Subscriber Badge on Friday July 01 2022, @08:27AM (#1257320)

                The majority of connections to the site are via VPNs or TOR.

                Is that a majority of AC connections, or of all connections? I'd find the latter (and finding myself in the minority for not using either) rather surprising.

                • (Score: 5, Informative) by janrinok on Friday July 01 2022, @11:36AM (4 children)

                  by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Friday July 01 2022, @11:36AM (#1257326) Journal

                  It is certainly the majority if not all of AC connections, and I estimate that at least half of the logged in connections now use a VPN. Although I haven't actually sat down and checked each and every account the fact that their IPs change so frequently indicates that they are probably using a VPN or TOR, or are using a laptop/mobile device and are connecting from many different locations.

                  Many people with accounts now only comment as ACs to avoid the risk of being targetted by spammers (dalek being a case in point) or to avoid receiving adverse moderations because of who they are rather than what they are saying (and there are numerous examples of this). If an account holder decides to post anonymously then they tend to also use a VPN.

                  I do not use VPNs as a matter of routine. I still have the same IP address that I had 5 years ago although both my internal network and my internet provider are IPv6 first and foremost but can handle IPv4 if required. However, having more than one computer means that my IP address changes whenever I change device.

                  The community has changed significantly since the site was created hence the reason that several staff and many of our earlier accounts have walked away.

                  • (Score: 2) by kazzie on Friday July 01 2022, @06:45PM (2 children)

                    by kazzie (5309) Subscriber Badge on Friday July 01 2022, @06:45PM (#1257396)

                    Thanks for the additional insight.

                    As I said, I'm not a regular user of VPNs, but much of my casual browsing and posting is done by cellphone and laptop, so I probably burn through a lot of DHCP addresses without noticing.

                    I can hardly claim to be an old-timer here with my account number, but I'd have to agree that the community has changed over the years. It's still more welcoming than the green site was, though: I read that for nigh on a decade without ever feeling the urge to make an account.

                    • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Friday July 01 2022, @07:05PM (1 child)

                      by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Friday July 01 2022, @07:05PM (#1257399) Journal

                      You currently have over 80 different IP hashes associated with your account and, having looked at a sample of them, they are unique to you, :)

                      I still haven't got a clue of who or where you are...... But if we do ever meet, I'll happily buy you a beer or two.

                      • (Score: 2) by kazzie on Friday July 01 2022, @07:18PM

                        by kazzie (5309) Subscriber Badge on Friday July 01 2022, @07:18PM (#1257402)

                        Heh. Well, I've lived at at least three addresses and had several jobs since I made this account (not that I recall how long ago that was), but yeah, there's a lot of DHCP addresses in there.

                        We'll probably never (knowingly) meet in person, but I gracefully accept the virtual beer, and offer another in return. :)

                  • (Score: 2) by deimtee on Friday July 01 2022, @08:28PM

                    by deimtee (3272) on Friday July 01 2022, @08:28PM (#1257423) Journal

                    I do not use a VPN or TOR (for SN), but my IP changes occasionally just because I have a shitty ISP.

                    --
                    If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
              • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Immerman on Saturday July 02 2022, @12:20AM

                by Immerman (3985) on Saturday July 02 2022, @12:20AM (#1257451)

                I think the issue has nothing to do with what *you* might want - after all, you have direct access to the original IP address - if you wanted to abuse it, you'd just keep track of that.

                The issue is what a malicious attacker might want - and the general rule of thumb is to assume that every major government and criminal organization has complete access to your computers whenever they so desire, unless you've got a large team of well-trusted security experts constantly auditing every aspect of your computer (and quite possibly even then)

                As for what a malicious attacker might want - the most obvious is to identify "problem" individuals for real-world "persuasion". Whatever that might mean in context, but an obvious candidate is arresting people in authoritarian nations that share illegal facts or opinions.

                Really though, my point was simply that the claim that a IPv6 hash is irreversible is bullshit, and believing it gives you a completely false sense of how good a job you're doing at providing privacy protection. It's better than nothing, but not great.

          • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Friday July 01 2022, @03:12AM (6 children)

            by Reziac (2489) on Friday July 01 2022, @03:12AM (#1257298) Homepage

            "While many ACs simply post crap many others do contribute positively to the site. I know of at least 2 who will not be able to access this site via their account because of where they currently are and the risks that they would face."

            I'm wondering if you might make a special anonymous account for such folks to use. Just a wild idea, no clue if practical.

            --
            And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
            • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Friday July 01 2022, @05:12AM (5 children)

              by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Friday July 01 2022, @05:12AM (#1257311) Journal

              And we are back to the 'Without a competent Perl programmer on the team....." argument again.

              • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Friday July 01 2022, @05:56AM

                by Reziac (2489) on Friday July 01 2022, @05:56AM (#1257314) Homepage

                Ah. Yeah, that's a problem. You can only work with what you have. (Unfortunately not in my skillset either.)

                Still, I think you guys do a stellar job.

                --
                And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
              • (Score: 2) by coolgopher on Saturday July 02 2022, @01:57PM (3 children)

                by coolgopher (1157) on Saturday July 02 2022, @01:57PM (#1257550)

                Where would one look if one wanted to ascertain the state of the current perl code and work out whether one might be able to lend a hand? Is there a git repo somewhere?

                • (Score: 4, Informative) by janrinok on Saturday July 02 2022, @02:18PM (2 children)

                  by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Saturday July 02 2022, @02:18PM (#1257553) Journal

                  https://github.com/SoylentNews

                  Rehash was up to date when TMB left although MartyB might have made trivial changes to some templates that do not the affect code execution.

                  Other useful info to be found in:

                  • http://remote.demmers.org/~audioguy/manual/
                  • https://wiki.soylentnews.org/wiki/SlashDocumentationIndex

                  Good luck.

                  • (Score: 2) by coolgopher on Saturday July 02 2022, @03:07PM (1 child)

                    by coolgopher (1157) on Saturday July 02 2022, @03:07PM (#1257557)

                    The code looks surprisingly readable (especially considering it's perl), from the bit I clicked around. There's a lot of it though; it's definitely past my availability to help out with, sorry. Maybe somebody else has more available time/energy?

                    (the demmers.org link asked for login, so I didn't see what was there).

                    • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Saturday July 02 2022, @04:13PM

                      by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Saturday July 02 2022, @04:13PM (#1257573) Journal

                      Thanks for taking the time to look. Many of us have looked and said, nice code but it takes a bit of grokking to see how it hangs together.

                      I am getting to know how it hangs together but I'm still not happy about changing it!

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by PiMuNu on Thursday June 30 2022, @10:15AM

        by PiMuNu (3823) on Thursday June 30 2022, @10:15AM (#1257143)

        thanks as always for your efforts to keep the site live

      • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 30 2022, @05:38PM (7 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 30 2022, @05:38PM (#1257217)

        You did exactly what the spammer, and zumi, wanted, block un-logged in posting. He won, the rest of us lose. If you can change that option, surely you can make it easy for us to filter out spam posts at our end with a "hide spam" option.

        • (Score: 2, Insightful) by janrinok on Thursday June 30 2022, @05:46PM (2 children)

          by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 30 2022, @05:46PM (#1257220) Journal

          1. Code changes require a programmer. You are either new here or you don't understand our current manning problems.

          2. Browse at a level above 0 and you do not see posts moderated as Spam or Trolls. You have an account - use it.

          • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 30 2022, @06:02PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 30 2022, @06:02PM (#1257228)

            "Troll" is a political mod, as confirmed just now on my previous post. To filter out just the spam I have to play a numbers game in my preferences. The spammer won via collective punishment..

            Later...

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 01 2022, @01:23AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 01 2022, @01:23AM (#1257289)

              "Troll" is a political mod, as confirmed just now on my previous post. To filter out just the spam I have to play a numbers game in my preferences. The spammer won via collective punishment..

              Later...

              Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.

        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Gaaark on Thursday June 30 2022, @08:30PM (2 children)

          by Gaaark (41) on Thursday June 30 2022, @08:30PM (#1257248) Journal

          surely you can make it easy for us to filter out spam posts at our end with a "hide spam" option.

          But then someone has to spend their time going around marking all the spam as spam, thus using their mod points up, just so you can have an agreeable experience.

          Be a part of the solution and not a problem. How about volunteering your time?

          --
          --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
          • (Score: 1) by rpnx on Saturday July 02 2022, @12:31AM (1 child)

            by rpnx (13892) on Saturday July 02 2022, @12:31AM (#1257456) Journal

            How about limiting who can mod and allow us to delete troll comments on our journals? and give more mod points to trustworthy users. some algorithm better than upvotes - downvotes too. someone with 10 upvotes and 1 downvote has a score of +9 but someone with 200 upvotes and 150 downvotes is +50. What?

            • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Saturday July 02 2022, @06:18AM

              by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Saturday July 02 2022, @06:18AM (#1257491) Journal

              Code changes require a programmer. You are either new here or you are unaware of our current manning problems.

        • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 02 2022, @12:28AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 02 2022, @12:28AM (#1257455)

          They like to ban you from moderating if you mark the toxic posts as spam so I think nobody is using that anymore. Sad we don't have a reasonable way to eject people that are causing harm. Troll mod does nothing. No good ways to downvote misinformation. Freedom of speech and moderation aren't compatible systems. You can't let toxic people moderate, yet for some reason soylent allows them to game the system.

      • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Sunday July 03 2022, @12:43AM

        by Reziac (2489) on Sunday July 03 2022, @12:43AM (#1257657) Homepage

        You must be doin' it wrong; I have no complaints!

        Will be interesting to see how the [AC friendly] and [AC not-so-friendly] discourse differs.

        --
        And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday June 30 2022, @05:37AM (45 children)

    by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Thursday June 30 2022, @05:37AM (#1257104) Journal

    Christ, it only took what...2, 3 years of me insisting? Leave this in place, for the good of the site.

    --
    I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
    • (Score: 3, Touché) by janrinok on Thursday June 30 2022, @05:42AM (6 children)

      by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 30 2022, @05:42AM (#1257105) Journal
      It is not a permanent measure and will be revoked if possible.
      • (Score: 5, Interesting) by PinkyGigglebrain on Thursday June 30 2022, @05:59AM (2 children)

        by PinkyGigglebrain (4458) on Thursday June 30 2022, @05:59AM (#1257109)

        It is not a permanent measure ...

        it should be.

        >quote>... and will be revoked if possible.

        and then the original problem will simply return.

        unless something that does the same thing but would be more convenient is going to be implemented SN might as well just leave this anti-SPAM measure in place or there was no point in activating it in the first place.

        just my 2 Yen

        --
        "Beware those who would deny you Knowledge, For in their hearts they dream themselves your Master."
        • (Score: 4, Insightful) by janrinok on Thursday June 30 2022, @06:09AM (1 child)

          by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 30 2022, @06:09AM (#1257110) Journal
          Countering spam is a never-ending battle. The current measures will simply move the problem to elsewhere in the site.
          • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Saturday July 02 2022, @01:07PM

            by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Saturday July 02 2022, @01:07PM (#1257538) Journal

            Yes, countering spam is a never ending battle. But banning it does do more than move the location on the site. The reason is that people won't bother to post spam if nobody is going to see it. It's cheap enough to do (i.e. posting spam) that folks will continue to do it, but if the reward (I think that's annoying other people) is reduced, so will be the incidence. Reduced sure isn't eliminated, but it's better than nothing.

            --
            Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
      • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Mykl on Thursday June 30 2022, @10:26AM (2 children)

        by Mykl (1112) on Thursday June 30 2022, @10:26AM (#1257146)

        I'm assuming that this means we'll start allowing AC posts once APK and Ari get bored and find other people to annoy. It's going to be hard to determine just when that happens though, and I suspect we'll have periodic flareups (meaning we'll need to lock down again each time).

        Personally, I'm totally fine with requiring a login to post (either as self or AC). It will get rid of the worst of the spam and deliberately offensive posts. While they only just annoy me, I fear that they drive away many potential new community members (who would want to join SN if their first experience is a post full of APK gibberish, Ari victimhood and some non-sequitor statement about a weird sex fetish?)

        • (Score: 4, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 30 2022, @10:39AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 30 2022, @10:39AM (#1257148)

          So AC; APK and Ari are like herpes? They never really go away and occasionally flare up again?

          • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 30 2022, @04:23PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 30 2022, @04:23PM (#1257201)

            Well, you might want to invite APK to your next party. I hear he goes down on HOSTS. You may not want to invite ari.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 30 2022, @05:47AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 30 2022, @05:47AM (#1257107)

      Christ, it only took what...2, 3 years in spite of me insisting?

      FTFY

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by janrinok on Thursday June 30 2022, @05:52AM (26 children)

      by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 30 2022, @05:52AM (#1257108) Journal
      Just out of interest - what gives you more right than any other member of our community to 'insist' that we do as you personally wish?
      • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday June 30 2022, @07:30AM (25 children)

        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Thursday June 30 2022, @07:30AM (#1257122) Journal

        No more nor less than anyone else :) Whether you all do or not is on you of course. But consider listening to the smart people...

        --
        I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by janrinok on Thursday June 30 2022, @07:35AM (23 children)

          by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 30 2022, @07:35AM (#1257124) Journal
          I assume that you think that you are the only smart person? Lots of others have very good reasons why AC posting should stay. That is not to say that I am fond of it, but it does serve as a very useful channel for quite a few worthwhile contributors to our site. You are thinking only of YOUR interests, which is fair enough.
          • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday June 30 2022, @04:19PM (17 children)

            by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Thursday June 30 2022, @04:19PM (#1257200) Journal

            The only one? No. You have plenty of people on this very thread who are begging you to leave this in place permanently.

            You've had it explained to you by better minds than me why "free speech uber alles" is, ironically, self-destructive and harmful if your end is the maximum free speech: entropy is a bitch, it's easier to shit on the carpet than clean shit out of the carpet, and the system can't tell the difference between APK's wall-o-spam and an insightful post written by an actual coherent person.

            It's exactly why the GPL, despite having more up front restrictions, in the long run guarantees freer software and more of it than the BSD license.

            --
            I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
            • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 30 2022, @04:24PM (4 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 30 2022, @04:24PM (#1257202)

              Translation: all the people who agree with me are smart people!

              • (Score: 0, Troll) by NPC-131072 on Thursday June 30 2022, @07:16PM (3 children)

                by NPC-131072 (7144) on Thursday June 30 2022, @07:16PM (#1257237) Journal

                Hello fren,

                Those of us on the morally and intellectually superior left [amgreatness.com] have always supported minority rights the freedom of speech that attains them. This is why we must now restrict minority points of view. You are just not in the very smart people club. Our flawless and principled logic is beyond the understanding of you Conservative hypocrites.

                • (Score: 4, Touché) by DeathMonkey on Thursday June 30 2022, @08:04PM (2 children)

                  by DeathMonkey (1380) on Thursday June 30 2022, @08:04PM (#1257242) Journal

                  And as we can see here the morally superior left immediately censored your post out of existence.

                  Or they didn't.... whatevs....reality is whatever you claim it is.....

                  • (Score: -1, Troll) by NPC-131072 on Thursday June 30 2022, @09:38PM (1 child)

                    by NPC-131072 (7144) on Thursday June 30 2022, @09:38PM (#1257260) Journal

                    Fascists [psypost.org] have been abusing the moderation system to attack my social justice activism for years. They must seethe with envy at my undeniably superior displays of intellect. I pity the fools.

                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 30 2022, @11:45PM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 30 2022, @11:45PM (#1257278)

                      Now, THERE is a truly scientific term!

            • (Score: 5, Insightful) by janrinok on Thursday June 30 2022, @05:38PM (6 children)

              by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 30 2022, @05:38PM (#1257218) Journal

              Count them - go on, count them. Do you think that 8 ( at the time of my writing - and therefore after your own post) or so people represent the entire community? The whole of the USA hasn't even come on line yet, let alone those elsewhere in the world. Not everybody comes on everyday - are they to be ignored because 30 June was somehow special in your mind? What about those ACs (who also have accounts) and who actually subscribe to the site? They have helped to pay for the servers that we are using. Lets just ignore them shall we because as far as you are concerned you seem to imagine that you have a majority with a handful of opinions.

              We have spent a long time getting here, there is no point in making snap decisions that we later regret. I'm not saying that yours isn't the predominant viewpoint of those that have accounts, who have also logged on so far, and who have bothered to comment. But we haven't asked for a vote on this, so you are not going to get your way based on a feeling in your water or whatever it is you think gives you the casting vote.

              You have been too close to aristarchus - you seem to believe that you have some sort of privileged position in our community. He was wrong too.

              • (Score: 3, Funny) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday June 30 2022, @08:17PM (1 child)

                by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Thursday June 30 2022, @08:17PM (#1257244) Journal

                Juuuust sayin', I've got a track record of being right about these things. If it takes a few on and off cycles, so be it; you lot will get it eventually.

                --
                I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 30 2022, @11:46PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 30 2022, @11:46PM (#1257279)

                  I've got a track record

                  We are all aware of your track record, Zum Zum.

              • (Score: 3, Insightful) by acid andy on Thursday June 30 2022, @11:31PM (3 children)

                by acid andy (1683) on Thursday June 30 2022, @11:31PM (#1257274) Homepage Journal

                I'll admit to being another fence sitter about the issue. I ideally would want a way for the most spammy and / or hateful AC posts not to reach people's browsers (and I do appreciate this is the most viable way you have to do that right now) but on the other hand I do think digital liberty is important. I think it's a valuable aspect of this site (and prevoiusly the green one too), the ability for an AC to post information of great importance to the tech community (in the public interest, in other words), that they might not be comfortable with being associated with other things they have written on the site--either for fear of being identified, attacked or even their reputation and social standing (real or online) being damaged.

                --
                If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
                • (Score: 3, Interesting) by coolgopher on Friday July 01 2022, @12:36AM

                  by coolgopher (1157) on Friday July 01 2022, @12:36AM (#1257284)

                  I'll second that. On the balance of things I'd prefer to have AC open, but some infantile assclowns insist on pissing in the pool. Tragedy of the commons and all that. I'd be happy to have the book thrown at the miscreants, but it's not like we're flush with time and money around these parts.

                  Thanks to all the volunteers for doing their best in a shite situation not of their creation.

                • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Joe Desertrat on Saturday July 02 2022, @01:46AM (1 child)

                  by Joe Desertrat (2454) on Saturday July 02 2022, @01:46AM (#1257466)

                  You might add that AC posts might be made by people taking a few moments of time while at work (official breaks only of course) to add to a conversation, they might not want to be logged in at the time.
                  I have seen too many quality AC posts over the years to accept that they are not a value to the site. Now some might post overly vituperative responses, but I don't think they are the problem (although there are some that seem to always attack some logged in posters). The same sort of posts come from logged in accounts.
                  The real issue seems to be the outright spam bombing (for lack of a better term) that certain individual(s) seem to continually engage themselves in doing. Perhaps we should all chip in for medication for them, certainly no one without issues would waste the time and effort on that they do.

                  • (Score: 2) by acid andy on Saturday July 02 2022, @01:58AM

                    by acid andy (1683) on Saturday July 02 2022, @01:58AM (#1257469) Homepage Journal

                    Yes that's a very good point about posting from work or a public place where someone might not be able or might not want to log in. That's a useful feature that's likely been overlooked in this discussion.

                    --
                    If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
            • (Score: 2) by pdfernhout on Thursday June 30 2022, @11:00PM (2 children)

              by pdfernhout (5984) on Thursday June 30 2022, @11:00PM (#1257270) Homepage

              https://web.archive.org/web/20131130191257/http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html [archive.org]
              "So these are human patterns that have shown up on the Internet, not because of the software, but because it's being used by humans. Bion has identified this possibility of groups sandbagging their sophisticated goals with these basic urges. And what he finally came to, in analyzing this tension, is that group structure is necessary. Robert's Rules of Order are necessary. Constitutions are necessary. Norms, rituals, laws, the whole list of ways that we say, out of the universe of possible behaviors, we're going to draw a relatively small circle around the acceptable ones.
                    He said the group structure is necessary to defend the group from itself. Group structure exists to keep a group on target, on track, on message, on charter, whatever. To keep a group focused on its own sophisticated goals and to keep a group from sliding into these basic patterns. Group structure defends the group from the action of its own members. ...
                      This pattern has happened over and over and over again. Someone built the system, they assumed certain user behaviors. The users came on and exhibited different behaviors. And the people running the system discovered to their horror that the technological and social issues could not in fact be decoupled. ..."

              --
              The biggest challenge of the 21st century: the irony of technologies of abundance used by scarcity-minded people.
              • (Score: 3, Touché) by stretch611 on Thursday June 30 2022, @11:25PM (1 child)

                by stretch611 (6199) on Thursday June 30 2022, @11:25PM (#1257273)

                Yes, because Robert's Rules and a constitution have kept the US congress working perfectly... They achieve so much and never use those rules to stop progress for their own gain.

                --
                Now with 5 covid vaccine shots/boosters altering my DNA :P
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 03 2022, @09:59AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 03 2022, @09:59AM (#1257716)

                  Working perfectly, no. But the US congress has been functioning for about 30 times as long as SN.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 02 2022, @06:19AM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 02 2022, @06:19AM (#1257492)

              You have plenty of people on this very thread who are begging you to leave this in place permanently.

              Well it could be all the other ones who disagree can't post since they don't have accounts and somehow can't create accounts?

              That said the spam thingy seems broken. If I set the spam modifier at -1 somehow the spam comments still show up more than the other stuff.

              • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 02 2022, @09:25PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 02 2022, @09:25PM (#1257629)

                If I set the spam modifier at -1 somehow the spam comments still show up more than the other stuff.

                You have to set all the other modifiers to +1 and then your threshold to 0. It screws up the displayed score a bit, but it will hide the spam modded comments.

          • (Score: 4, Interesting) by DeathMonkey on Thursday June 30 2022, @04:48PM (2 children)

            by DeathMonkey (1380) on Thursday June 30 2022, @04:48PM (#1257206) Journal

            I don't have an opinion on this one but I would say there are more people in here asking to keep the feature than to remove it....

            • (Score: 5, Insightful) by unauthorized on Thursday June 30 2022, @05:58PM (1 child)

              by unauthorized (3776) on Thursday June 30 2022, @05:58PM (#1257226)

              People who oppose the status quo are always more vocal than those who support it.

              • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 03 2022, @10:15AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 03 2022, @10:15AM (#1257718)

                I DEMAND THAT THE STATUS QUO REMAIN!
                IF YOU DEFY ME I WILL GO ALL DEVILGATE DRIVE ON YOUR 48 CRASH.

                Oops. That was Suzu Quatro. I always get those mixed up.

          • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Saturday July 02 2022, @01:12PM (1 child)

            by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Saturday July 02 2022, @01:12PM (#1257539) Journal

            This is probably a "We'd need another perl programmer, and besides it would cost a bit", but consider having a subdomain where un-logged-in posts are mixed with everyone else, as well as a domain where they are forbidden. Perhaps it would be easy enough.

            --
            Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
            • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Saturday July 02 2022, @01:48PM

              by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Saturday July 02 2022, @01:48PM (#1257548) Journal

              I like the idea but I don't see how we could modify the code to send the edited output to 2 different places at the same time. However, this is no an area I know much about so I will ask for advice from those who might be able the help me.

              Thank you.

        • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 01 2022, @01:26AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 01 2022, @01:26AM (#1257291)

          No more nor less than anyone else :) Whether you all do or not is on you of course. But consider listening to the smart people...

          They were. That's probably why your advice was not heard.

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by FatPhil on Thursday June 30 2022, @07:36AM

      by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Thursday June 30 2022, @07:36AM (#1257125) Homepage
      What if I were to tell you that this won't actually solve the problem?

      All you see is placid ducks, you don't know how much paddling is required. Which means we're doing our job well, I'll take that as a compliment.
      --
      Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
    • (Score: 3, Funny) by DannyB on Thursday June 30 2022, @01:51PM (5 children)

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 30 2022, @01:51PM (#1257176) Journal

      Nobody ever listen to Zathrus.

      --
      People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
      • (Score: 4, Funny) by Gaaark on Thursday June 30 2022, @08:41PM (4 children)

        by Gaaark (41) on Thursday June 30 2022, @08:41PM (#1257252) Journal

        Well they say he is quite mad, but it is good that Zathras does not mind you miss-spelling his name. He's even grown to like it. Oh yes.

        ;)

        --
        --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
        • (Score: 4, Funny) by coolgopher on Friday July 01 2022, @12:38AM (3 children)

          by coolgopher (1157) on Friday July 01 2022, @12:38AM (#1257285)

          No no, it's "Zathras".

          • (Score: 4, Funny) by Gaaark on Friday July 01 2022, @01:21PM (2 children)

            by Gaaark (41) on Friday July 01 2022, @01:21PM (#1257335) Journal

            Ugh....not the one.

            --
            --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
            • (Score: 3, Funny) by Phoenix666 on Saturday July 02 2022, @01:38PM (1 child)

              by Phoenix666 (552) on Saturday July 02 2022, @01:38PM (#1257546) Journal

              Sad conversation. Probably have sad end. But at least there's symmetry.

              --
              Washington DC delenda est.
              • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Saturday July 02 2022, @05:07PM

                by Gaaark (41) on Saturday July 02 2022, @05:07PM (#1257588) Journal

                Conversation not of this time. You take, Conversation die. You leave, Conversation die. Either way, it is bad for Conversation.

                --
                --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
    • (Score: 0, Troll) by EdSurrey on Sunday July 03 2022, @06:33AM (2 children)

      by EdSurrey (17598) on Sunday July 03 2022, @06:33AM (#1257695)

      I am going to blame Azuma Hazuki for the demise of SoylentNews. And after I modded her up so many times. Alt-right wins.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 03 2022, @10:22AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 03 2022, @10:22AM (#1257721)

        Hi Ari,
        Have you considered therapy? You can obviously dedicate a lot of attention to a particular area. If you could devote this to something beneficial you could possibly accomplish something really good. At the very least, thearapy might help you stop wasting your life chasing phantoms on the internet.

      • (Score: 3, Funny) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday July 03 2022, @05:17PM

        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Sunday July 03 2022, @05:17PM (#1257798) Journal

        I appreciate getting to live rent-free in your head, but you seriously need to hire a cleaning service. It's not just the cobwebs and dust; there are some seriously gross, ground-in stains in here!

        --
        I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
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