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Submitted via IRC for Runaway1956
In January 2013, police raided the home of a Cleveland drug dealer, saying in a search warrant that an informant had recently bought crack cocaine there.
But the drug dealer had surveillance cameras that proved the officers were lying. He gave the tapes to his lawyer, who showed the FBI. The feds then worked to uncover a massive scandal of a rogue street-crimes unit that robbed and framed drug suspects who felt they had no choice but plead guilty to fraudulent charges.
Four years later, authorities are still unwinding the damage.
Three cops who worked for the city of East Cleveland are in prison. Cases against 22 alleged drug dealers have been dismissed. Authorities are searching for another 21 people who are eligible to have their convictions tossed. On top of those injustices, there is a slim chance that any of them will be fully reimbursed, because the disgraced officers and their former employer don't have the money.
Source: NBC News
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Tuesday March 28 2017, @02:53PM (64 children)
WTF is that supposed to mean? Has the municipality ceased to exist? Of course it has the money. If they need more money, they can raise taxes. If that's not enough, then city property should be seized, and if that's not enough, property of all the private residents of the city should be seized too (after all, the residents voted for, and are responsible for their local government).
(Score: 2) by mhajicek on Tuesday March 28 2017, @02:57PM (5 children)
I'm happy they're putting those responsible in prison rather than letting them off with a slap on the wrist.
The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Tuesday March 28 2017, @08:53PM (4 children)
But if you were one of their victims and had spent considerable time in prison, wouldn't you want some kind of compensation for lost job/wages/possible family breakdown, etc?
I certainly would: make them come over, give me oodles of money and then make them fuck each others asses on public television.
These kinds of cops need to be monetarily punished: the only way it will be stopped.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 4, Touché) by SDRefugee on Wednesday March 29 2017, @12:20AM (2 children)
These kinds of cops need to be monetarily punished: the only way it will be stopped.
No, these kinds of cops need to be BEHIND BARS.. Anytime a bad cop gets nailed, and the victim gets money, that money ALWAYS comes out of the taxpayers pocket.. These kind of cops, along with serious jail time in PMITA prison, needs to have whatEVER funds they have .. 401K's, IRA's, bank accounts, paid to the victims they screwed..
America should be proud of Edward Snowden, the hero, whether they know it or not..
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Wednesday March 29 2017, @02:11AM
Yeah, basically what i said: they need to lose out financially as well as doing the jail time.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Wednesday March 29 2017, @03:34PM
The taxpayers, at the local level, are the ones standing by and letting this happen, and electing local leaders who let this happen or encourage it (as the local politicians are almost always corruptly in-bed with the police force).
I'm entirely in agreement with seizing ALL the cop's assets and transferring those to the victim(s). But cops aren't that rich usually, so the victims need more, a LOT more (millions of dollars per case), and that needs to be paid by the taxpayers of the *locality* that employed the cop.
(Score: 3, Informative) by mhajicek on Wednesday March 29 2017, @02:50AM
Remuneration would be nice for me, and make my life easier, but either way I would want that cop behind bars. If you hit a cop in the wallet he can always sell confiscated drugs to make up the difference, but he can't cheat his way out of prison once he's in. The punishment fits the crime.
The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
(Score: 5, Insightful) by khallow on Tuesday March 28 2017, @03:02PM (12 children)
after all, the residents voted for, and are responsible for their local government
If I'm going to be "responsible" for a government to the point that my property will be seized for its illegal activities, then I want a lot more control over it than a lousy vote.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @07:41PM (11 children)
You do have more than just a vote. You could... attend the town, county or state meetings that are open to the public where said policies are discussed and decided upon before placed up for vote... You know, actually engage in politics on a personal level? Then you would have an opportunity to comment more than yay or nay... If you don't exercise that right, then you have no excuse come voting time.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Tuesday March 28 2017, @08:04PM (7 children)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @08:13PM (6 children)
You do have personal hire/fire power. So does everyone else in your locality. It's called a vote. Get off your lazy ass and actually participate in your local politics and vote for your local politicians rather than just voting for president. And if your state/county/township is backwards enough where you don't have the right to vote on their position, strive to make the political changes so that you do. Again it's your own fault if you do not. You will never get a personal veto power which is what you really want.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Tuesday March 28 2017, @10:31PM (5 children)
You do have personal hire/fire power. So does everyone else in your locality. It's called a vote.
And that's fine as long as my vote is the only one that counts and the results of my vote are immediately carried out without question. Keep in mind that I'm not talking about the usual tripe, my ass is supposedly on the line here with complete fiscal responsibility and possibly legal responsibility as well. Thus, I demand more power and control to reflect that supposed vastly enlarged responsibility.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 29 2017, @12:27AM (4 children)
The only thing enlarged might be your forehead if you think you are special enough to deserve the power our president does not even have. You might want to look up the definition of the word 'hyperbole' it might be relevant. Your ass is safe since this whole idea is bogus. Relax, and take your meds it might help.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday March 29 2017, @03:12AM (3 children)
The only thing enlarged might be your forehead if you think you are special enough to deserve the power our president does not even have.
Deserve? No. It's power commensurate to the responsibility. If you don't like me having that level of power, then don't try to give me that level of responsibility.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Wednesday March 29 2017, @11:32AM (2 children)
If someone claims I have the power to bring about X, yet someone has equal power to prevent or undo X, then I do not have the power to bring about X, and that person's claims are utterly void.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday March 30 2017, @12:56AM (1 child)
To use the inevitable car analogy, it's much easier to avoid wrapping your car around a tree, when it faithfully executes your intent (such as a jerk on the steering wheel moving you towards the center of the road and brakes that slow you down, should you be traveling at excessive speed) rather than having oh a 40% chance the vehicle does exactly the wrong thing instead.
And how can anyone justify holding you completely responsible for an accident, when they force you into this dodgy vehicle that you have so little control over and which will zoom off the road in a few hundred yards no matter how frantically you flail at the steering wheel and stamp on the brake pedal?
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Thursday March 30 2017, @09:09AM
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 4, Informative) by art guerrilla on Wednesday March 29 2017, @12:01AM (2 children)
oh sweet geebus:
AS IF there is a true choice among the candidates, and NOT JUST Candidate A from one branch of the Korporate Money Party, and Candidate B from the other branch of the Korporate Money Party... WHAT THE FUCK 'good' does going to all the meetings, engaging in YOUR brand of the Korporate Money Party's organizing meetings, when there is ONLY going to be a 'choice' between tweedle-dee, and tweedle-dum made by the bankrolling puppet masters who despise the 99% ? ? ?
did you just get out of 7th grade civics class and ACTUALLY believe all that propaganda ? ? ?
*sheesh* i can not believe an adult over the age of 21 could spout such risible nonsense...
um, sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, snowflake, but there ain't no America no more, it is Empire all the way down, sparklepony...
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 29 2017, @12:15AM (1 child)
Those candidates from Korporate Money Party don't just pop out of thin air. They still have to start at the bottom of the political barrel that is being a local politician and work their way up. These people are already active in politics long before the reach seats in congress or the senate or the presidency. If you don't oppose them at the local level you can't expect to do so at the national. At least I LISTENED in 7th grade civics class and didn't just roll my eyes because it did not fit with my world view, eyed the cheerleader with the very low neckline sitting next to me or stared blankly out the window because I couldn't grasp what was being said. You my poor friend have fallen for the lie that is our political structure is broken. It's not, it's just getting rather ugly right now because some people can't deal with not getting they want.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 29 2017, @06:25AM
It's not, it's just getting rather ugly right now because some people can't deal with not getting they want.
The majority of the constituencies are getting what they want the most.
The majority of the voters care a lot more about stuff like abortion, gun rights than they do about other stuff and they vote accordingly.
The majority of the corporations behind the lobbyists don't really care that much about such stuff (they'll publicly go along with whatever the majority of the voters want). The corporations care more about lower taxes and regulations, and strengthening+increasing their monopolies. And that is why you see corporations funding both R and D candidates. As long as the candidates will support their goals and have a chance of winning they get the $$$$. The other candidates don't.
The winning candidates get power, position and $$$$$$.
Thus "everyone" gets what they want the most. Win-win right?
The problem is when "everyone" wants stuff that's not good for them in the long run. But who really knows what's good in the long run? And good for who/what?
(Score: 3, Interesting) by sjames on Tuesday March 28 2017, @03:02PM (5 children)
Based on Google images, it looks like they have a nice fleet of late model police cars. I'll bet they could sell those off and get some cars from the used car lot.
City hall had some really nice looking wood paneling inside. They could sell that off too.
Perhaps with the posh trappings sold off they'll be a little less likely to get full of themselves and allow this kind of crap to go on.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Tuesday March 28 2017, @03:21PM (4 children)
They need to also go after all personal property owned by everyone on the police force and everyone in the town government. Town-owned buildings are also fair game; all that real estate can be transferred to the ownership of the plaintiffs. That includes the police station and town hall. The new owners can then charge exorbitant rent to the town for their use. The town will have to massively raise taxes on residents to pay for it. A 50% income tax should help a lot in paying for that.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @03:26PM (3 children)
Well, why don't we consider what happens to somebody who can't pay a fine?
If you can't pay the fine, you get an ankle tracker or thrown in jail, or one after the other. Those accrue further fines.
Fail to pay those fines, you get thrown in jail or get an ankle tracker, or one after the other. Those accrue further fines.
Fail to pay those fines, ad nauseum.
I think it's clear what needs to happen to the police department and everybody else who enabled this.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Tuesday March 28 2017, @03:36PM
Sounds good to me! Make sure the city government leaders get slapped with absurdly-high fines too, with hard prison time if they can't pay (and they can't get out until they do pay).
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Wednesday March 29 2017, @06:41AM
Move to a sane country? ;-)
(Score: 2) by urza9814 on Wednesday March 29 2017, @04:45PM
That is NOT what happens when someone can't pay a fine (or more accurately, it happens only when judges become criminals themselves); what you're describing has been ruled numerous times to be a violation of the Fourteenth Amendment. You can jail someone for REFUSING to pay a fine, but you cannot jail someone for being UNABLE to pay a fine.
(Score: 5, Informative) by Thexalon on Tuesday March 28 2017, @03:23PM (7 children)
This is fairly local to me, so as you can imagine this is a really big story around here.
To answer your question, it's darn near "yes".
The city of East Cleveland, Ohio is separate from but adjacent to Cleveland. The municipality is in fact completely broke, drowning in debt, the property values have been dropping like a rock, and crime is through the roof. There are plans in the works to end its existence and make East Cleveland part of Cleveland [cleveland.com], but the city government of Cleveland doesn't want to do that because East Cleveland is such a dump and a financial wreck that Cleveland doesn't want to take on the job of fixing it. This is not even close to the only scandal plaguing East Cleveland's government, either.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Grishnakh on Tuesday March 28 2017, @03:34PM (4 children)
Interesting. So do you have any idea why last week I just saw a brand-new police car marked "East Cleveland" driving north on I-95 in Virginia, from Richmond towards DC (and probably towards Ohio)? He was driving really slow, about 5 or so under the speed limit, and disrupting traffic a lot until people figured out he was out-of-state.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Tuesday March 28 2017, @05:03PM (1 child)
No idea. Among other things, it's possible it's for one of the 30 or so other places in the US named "Cleveland".
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 1) by Arik on Tuesday March 28 2017, @05:55PM
A place named "Cleveland" doesn't put "East Cleveland" on their cars. That wouldn't make sense unless "East Cleveland" is a separate municipality, and the only "East Cleveland" I seem able to find is this one.
Of course that doesn't rule it out but it seems unlikely.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Tuesday March 28 2017, @07:42PM (1 child)
How could you tell it was brand new?
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Tuesday March 28 2017, @08:03PM
It looked brand-new and didn't have any license plates.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by bzipitidoo on Tuesday March 28 2017, @09:22PM
Pfft, those corrupt East Cleveland cops were amateurs, to so blatantly frame innocent people. Houston, now, they know how to frame innocent people! They use a deeply flawed drug test. No cops were guilty of anything so crude and obviously illegal as planting evidence. When their racket got exposed, they blamed it all on the drug test.
https://www.propublica.org/article/common-roadside-drug-test-routinely-produces-false-positives [propublica.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 29 2017, @06:33AM
but the city government of Cleveland doesn't want to do that because East Cleveland is such a dump and a financial wreck that Cleveland doesn't want to take on the job of fixing it. This is not even close to the only scandal plaguing East Cleveland's government, either.
If some area the other side of the world goes to hell, it often doesn't really matter if you don't do anything, won't affect you. But if an adjacent area goes to hell, there's a high chance it will affect you.
Even China tries to keep North Korea from completely falling apart: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93North_Korea_relations#Economic_relations [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday March 28 2017, @03:34PM (18 children)
Wow. Just wow. You would take the personal property of residents of the city, just because they voted for the wrong people? I thought we didn't do imprisonment for political reasons in the US. God knows we have enough other ways to drum up bogus charges against people we don't like. Kinda like the cops in the story, ya know?
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Tuesday March 28 2017, @03:36PM (17 children)
They're part of the problem. They selected this leadership. The government was not externally imposed by an occupation force, so the people are responsible.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by sjames on Tuesday March 28 2017, @03:46PM (14 children)
FAced with the choice of bungee or death, they chose bungee.
That's the problem with democracy in the U.S.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Grishnakh on Tuesday March 28 2017, @03:51PM (13 children)
The problem with democracy in the US is the voters in the US. They chose this government, and it's their responsibility to choose better, or to force something better if necessary.
"Every nation gets the government it deserves."
(Score: 2) by sjames on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:13PM (10 children)
So what's your suggestion to the mostly poor population of East Cleveland? Violent revolution until the corrupt police gun them all down and leave their kids without parents?
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:29PM (9 children)
Mostly poor, but not completely poor. Go after the rich ones with extremely high taxes and property confiscation if necessary.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:43PM
How is going after the rich ones with high taxes going to fix the issue of having bungee or death to choose from?
(Score: 2, Insightful) by jmorris on Tuesday March 28 2017, @05:17PM (5 children)
Uh huh. Go after the few remaining rich ones, who are utterly powerless in a system that lets them be outvoted a hundred to one by the useless people that turned the town into a Hellhole in the first place. Yup, establish the precedent that the millisecond the vibrants gain the majority and elect a corrupt major and city council they should INSTANTLY sell anything they can't move at fire sale prices and flee for their lives lest they have their property seized to pay for the sins of the third world we are recreating here in our cities. Yup, lets go full Mugabe since it worked out so well for them.
The suburbs were initially created as refugee camps for white people driven from their cities by Democrats importing and empowering diversity until the cities became hellholes, then the government rammed the excess diversity into the suburbs because they were deemed "too white." Now it all about exurbs. The idiocy of people like Grisnakh would accelerate that process and get shooting wars started to keep the diversity from getting in.
And people still wonder why we don't think the Left is even capable of rational thought? Here ya go.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @05:42PM (1 child)
Jesus h christ on a bongo drum!! Jmorris has exceeded his monthly quota of crazy. To apply your same broad stroke: And people still wonder why we don't think the Right is fundamentally human anymore. Here ya go, just look at their local mascot! Lizards all the way down.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @06:34PM
Ugh, does that mean he's free to just cut loose in 4 days?
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Tuesday March 28 2017, @06:48PM (2 children)
Aren't you late for your KKK meeting?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @07:25PM (1 child)
I'm guessing you've never met or talked to a member of that group before. Based on your post history I imagine you don't talk to anyone who isn't in your belief bubble. His phrasing was a bit insensitive with the 'refugee' remark, but in many cases the forced 'diversity' does end up turning areas bad. If it was natural the two cultures and groups would gradually become more like each other. Forcing it just makes both groups clam up and avoid the other group, ending in so called 'white flight' or the reverse... 'gentrification'.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @09:13PM
I'm guessing you weren't blessed with a broad historical education, or if so then you don't have an abundance of brains... Cities == jobs, so you get a lot of poor people trying to make a living by moving to the city. The idea that Democrats caused a migration of minorities to "white rich towns" is laughable, and the underlying racism is blatant. It is a well used ploy, use objectively true facts (urban ghettos are a common thing) and use that to support a crazy racist position.
Yeah, we don't get the point at allllll.... Forced diversity? Lawl, someone dipping into the adult kool-aid?
(Score: 2) by dyingtolive on Tuesday March 28 2017, @11:27PM (1 child)
So, you're saying that they should target the people with the highest potential mobility and the most to lose by sticking around, who are probably also the ones who own all the local businesses if there are any to speak of?
I normally dig "eat the rich", but that's not really going to end well come day two. I mean, I guess you could also break their legs and put up checkpoints at all the exits to town to make sure they don't get out, but now I'm starting to feel uncomfortable.
Don't blame me, I voted for moose wang!
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Wednesday March 29 2017, @03:25PM
Well, many of the "rich" people are the people running the town government, and the police force, and they're really the ones causing the problems. How are they going to move out? They're only in their current cushy position because they're located there, in that town.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday March 29 2017, @12:59PM (1 child)
art guerilla upthread is more right on this one than you are here. You're assuming that voting will make a difference to the outcome and that therefore the outcome is a result of how people have voted. It's not. We have gone through several complete changes of governmental control from Republicans to Democrats and back again in the last couple of decades, and there has been no appreciable difference in the trajectory of things for the 99% in America. Corporations control both parties, and both parties cater to them exclusively. They only pretend to fight in front of the cameras because it's part of the kabuki play that maintains the illusion of choice.
That chain of control must be broken if we ever mean to have real democracy that functions as you have been led to believe this one does. Corporations must lose artificial personhood, lobbying by corporations must stop, revolving door laws must be made absolute, government must be 100% transparent and accessible at a voter's fingertips.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Wednesday March 29 2017, @03:21PM
You're talking about national-level politics. Stuff at the local level is very, very different. In one city I used to live in (Tempe AZ), political candidates didn't even have party affiliations (it was disallowed to advertise such), and they had run-off voting. The issue in this story isn't national level in the slightest, it's entirely local. And the local level really is where regular citizens can get involved and make a difference if they really want to, by various means if necessary. At the national level, the people who make laws deciding your fate live far, far away. At the local level, they live very close by, maybe even within walking distance.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by PinkyGigglebrain on Tuesday March 28 2017, @06:20PM
And what about the people who cast their vote for the candidate that didn't win? Should they also be held responsible even though the representative in office isn't the one they wanted?
"Beware those who would deny you Knowledge, For in their hearts they dream themselves your Master."
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Wednesday March 29 2017, @11:40AM
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @03:54PM
step 1. Get judgement
step 2. legally step on every dime they spend.
step 3. get arrested on trumped up....wait!
(Score: 3, Informative) by VLM on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:02PM (3 children)
If they need more money, they can raise taxes.
I donno man, I've been around the block a few times and the way this rolls in the real world as opposed to online is there's a budget proposal that eliminates high school football (In that kind of neighborhood I suppose basketball is the big sport) because "there's no money". Then lots of crying in letters to the editor and editorials about how that would be the end of the world and anyone who doesn't vote to increase taxes is literally hitler and the population is brow beaten into accepting huge tax increases, because apparently the one and only optional controllable budget line item is high school football.
Then the mayor gets his pay raise or kicks back reduced prop tax to a crony or city hall gets its new office mahogany paneling or the police chief gets all the expensive spare parts and supplies the "free" armored personnel carrier requires or whatever, and nothing changes until the next shakedown.
I've only seen this like 20-30 times in various local municipalities so what could I possibly know.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:32PM (2 children)
So as I've said elsewhere here in this thread, the populace is to blame, since they keep voting for this crap.
Honestly, you don't need much money to have an open field and a ball for kids to throw around; once you've paid for it once (the field, the goalposts, etc.), you don't need to pay for it again for decades. So if the voters are approving big tax increases that just goes for wasteful spending, that's on them.
(Score: 4, Informative) by VLM on Tuesday March 28 2017, @06:04PM (1 child)
Thru a mixture of gerrymandering and identify politics, there's one party putting up one candidate. Its like blaming the Iraqi people for electing Saddam as leader a couple of times when he was the only candidate. The USA is more 3rd world than many people like to think.
"We need to hurry up and re-enact the French Revolution to get it over with so as to achieve post-revolution normality sooner" is nice in theory but impractical.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday March 29 2017, @01:17PM
Revolution is never practical - sometimes coup d'etat is, but revolution, almost by definition, is messy.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:11PM
A. It's easy to say that when it isn't your municipality.
B. Not everyone votes for the same elected official.
C. Get back to me after they seize your property to pay compensation for government screw ups. I'm sure you'll be more than happy and willing to see your home auctioned off.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:35PM (4 children)
Another aspect to consider before you go crazy on the budget is to estimate the likely very small amount of money involved. Like they could take a couple old police pistols down to a local pawnbroker and it would probably be all good.
The assumption in the carefully edited story is they're putting clean people in jail for decades. So my annual salary times decades adds up to some impressive damages for false imprisonment.
However look at the MTBF (Mean Time Between Felonies) for the "victims" and the cops intentionally went after career criminals with long records who were just going to end up in jail anyway for something legit in a couple weeks. So they really only had a couple weeks stolen from them, not decades.
Now I'm not saying that false imprisonment for a couple weeks should be unpunished just because the price of a greater injustice is higher. But you gotta be realistic that its not going to be rewarded by millions of dollars. Proportionately it might only be a couple thousand.
There are other weird effects involved such as life long career criminals usually not having a positive net worth, so the net effect of giving "them" money means the court will turn around and give every penny to some bank he stole from a couple felonies ago. Or the medical bills of someone he shot (perhaps a cop, or a now disabled kid). Or child support. I'm just saying another detail not discussed in the story, probably intentionally, is the money isn't likely to go to the crook who would just waste it on crack its likely every penny will go to the parents of some dude he killed or some whore's kid that hasn't got a penny of child support in five years or some hospital will finally get paid for medical treatment of some shooting he legitimately did. So paying money doens't necessarily mean its money wasted if "good people" end up with all of the money anyway.
There are other issues that life long felon career criminals will likely end up in prison within a year anyway so they best hurry and get their money because this time next year they'll all be back in the criminal justice system which complicates things. They have victimized someone else in a year or so, and the new victim will end up with more money.
It might not be as much money as you'd think. That's all I'm saying. Probably no need to mortgage city hall.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Tuesday March 28 2017, @05:20PM
No matter their record, you can't assume they would have committed a crime, you would need to prove it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @05:45PM (2 children)
You know what happens when you ass-u-me right?
Yup, thought so.
(Score: 2) by Osamabobama on Tuesday March 28 2017, @08:33PM (1 child)
Ooh, I know this one!
When you assume, you save time contemplating a decision and reduce the need for additional data while simultaneously accepting the risk that you will be wrong.
Appended to the end of comments you post. Max: 120 chars.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @09:19PM
SO CLOSE!
I'll take another "rational responses" for $1000 Alex.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday March 29 2017, @12:42PM
It's called limits of liability - just because they are city Police doesn't mean that the city is financially liable for the actions of their Police department. After all, the city itself passed legislation limiting its liability to the extent permitted under state and federal laws... anyone attempting to sue the city for misdeeds of the police will first have to prove that the city legislation is unenforceable under state law.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @03:01PM (4 children)
... is if they stole the money from me.
What else can you expect from a monopoly, let alone one that is violently imposed?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @03:28PM (3 children)
Angels men warlords.
Though mostly warlords in this case I think.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @03:36PM (2 children)
You know, a little market competition in the implementation of a shared policing standard.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:23PM (1 child)
It sounds like a good idea. How should we go about it?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @06:18PM
Trying and then exiling the malicious prosecutors for pressing cases against private persons who watch over their own neighborhoods would be a start.
Exile because I don't want to pay for the feeding and housing of such criminal scum. Kick them off from Florida on a raft.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by fustakrakich on Tuesday March 28 2017, @03:24PM
They just got caught
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday March 28 2017, @03:56PM (4 children)
And they wonder why the average law abiding citizen doesn't trust law enforcement any more.
When trying to solve a problem don't ask who suffers from the problem, ask who profits from the problem.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by LoRdTAW on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:40PM (3 children)
My huge beef with law enforcement is they way they are looked at and treated as a different class of people. Law enforcement personnel are no different than any other person. Theconcept of a superior, an enforcer so to speak, creates the exact atmosphere needed to foster corruption. "I am the law! Who's gonna stop me?"
What needs to happen:
* You're only a cop when on the clock. Its just a regular job.
* No special treatment for off duty cops. You're a regular schmuck like the rest of us.
* No off duty carry permits unless your state allows open/conceal carry and you apply for a permit like every other person in said state.
* Harsher penalties for violating the oath you took to uphold the law. No more desk duty slap on the wrist bullshit.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by DannyB on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:57PM (1 child)
One day in the future, imagine this . . .
Police: I pulled you over because you were driving eratically.
You: But this is a self driving car, and I was busy with other things.
Police: I think you didn't hear me correctly. I said, I pulled you over because you were leaving a known crime area full of non white people. You look suspicious. You better get out of the car.
You: why do I need to get out of the car.
Police: for resisting arrest.
You: my self driving car has lots of camera telemetry, even when pulled over in a traffic stop. Probably more and better footage of every angle than your body camera which is turned off.
When trying to solve a problem don't ask who suffers from the problem, ask who profits from the problem.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 29 2017, @12:52AM
Not when the car was zapped with the anti-drone, EMP gun. We've already had car versions for years, they just aren't used often (helicopters used to use them during car chases).
(Score: 3, Informative) by urza9814 on Wednesday March 29 2017, @04:56PM
The problem is it's not just how they're looked at anymore, it's a codified legal reality. They ARE a different class of citizen, they ARE entitled to special rights and privileges. Look up your local "Police Officers' Bill of Rights" for example (nearly every jurisdiction in the US has one...special rights for cops that us regular citizens aren't entitled to.)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:16PM (2 children)
pigs are stealing and kidnapping/slaving, what's new? to be fair though, this is the people's fault. the people are supposed to make the legislature do their bidding. only old idiots want the drug war so why are the police being used against the people? because the younger generations aren't doing their duty. write or call your legislature and tell those stupid whores that they better pull their bloated heads out of their asses, or else they will be held personally responsible. of course, the stupid whores of the msm would have to be put in their place too. warn them(a letter to their house will show them you mean business), then follow through. they just suck up to power and the people have lost that so they kiss up to the scum in government.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:23PM (1 child)
"only old idiots want the drug war"
You do realize that yesterday's hippies are in their 70's and even 80's today? Not even old idiots want the drug war. Only corrupt bastards who profit from the war on drugs want the drug war. Those, and the brainwashed fools in law enforcement. Of course, that's kinda redundant - DEA and other law enforcement offcials have been caught red handed with their hands in the cookie jar. Cops make a bust, confiscate ten kilos of cocaine, and only six go into the evidence room. A week or two later, everyone involved in the bust is driving a nice new car, and shopping for a nicer home.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:39PM
You do realize that yesterday's hippies are in their 70's and even 80's today? Not even old idiots want the drug war.
This is incorrect, I'm pretty sure. The problem with your reasoning is that you're assuming that the Hippies in the 60s were a majority of the population. They weren't, not by a long shot. They were a small and vocal minority. Most people back then were very conservative by today's standards. They're the ones who are in their 70s+, and are still voting for the drug war. And there's plenty of younger people who want it too (mainly middle-aged). They're the ones who voted for Trump, and his stooge Sessions who loves the drug war and civil asset forfeiture.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by VLM on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:18PM (28 children)
One tiny little detail, shocked it made it past the political censors. It kinda changes the whole "feel" of the discussion
The detectives, Blackshaw said, knew just who to target: people with long criminal records
So we're being manipulated into thinking it could happen to folks like us. The cops like "yer registration sticker fell off your plate" then he tosses the brick of coke in the back seat and yesterday you had a clean record and next thing you know you're in prison for a decade.
The reality is more like some kiddie toucher prowling around an elementary school playground who got off (ahem bad pun sorry) on a technicality, or who never should have been out on probation anyway, got a bag of weed stuffed in his pocket by a patrol officer checking out the playground, and oh whoops I guess we gotta arrest you in front of all these school kids and toss back in the slammer where the crook belongs anyway. I guess I'm supposed to feel sad for the crook but I'm too happy for the kids to mind very much.
There's a classic hyper polarizing Dirty Harry movie from the 70s titled "Magnum Force" its a pretty good movie, anyway the plot (SPOILER ALERT) is "bad" cops are basically executing the worst scum of the city and Dirty Harry cucks hard and opposes the sorta-vigilante cops for no logical reason. In fact the movie is basically pro-vigilante propaganda by portraying Harry as such an illogical idiot. Harry, you fool, the cops are the good guys in this movie, not the bad guys, you're supposed to be helping them.
So some bottom of the barrel dirtbag who's been busted for a ton of stuff, and you know he's done ten times as much he hasn't been busted for, ends up in prison, where the dirtbag would have ended up sooner or later anyway. Sounds like a fairy tale ending to me. But wait, just to turn it into a twist horror movie now we gotta punish the cops for some minor details that don't really matter and let the dirtbags out to rape and kill their way across Cleveland until they can get busted with all the I dotted and T crossed. After all the more victims the "better" a society is, right? That's OK the local citizens are used to being punished by high crime so a little more won't change much.
What a bunch of BS. Personally I think the cops should be pardoned and given a slap on the wrist "you morons best not get caught next time".
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:28PM (3 children)
That's not how justice works.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday March 28 2017, @05:20PM (2 children)
(insert professor Snape voice) Clearly... (end voice)
I don't think people visit the bad parts of Cleveland and hang out with career criminals to learn what justice is, or to observe some kind of Plato-like utopia in operation. So now we have THAT out of the way...
What is justice, anyway?
Sure, I agree, going all "My Lai Massacre" on a rich suburban white village because some underage kid might be underage smoking is not justice. But then again Cleveland isn't My Lai or a rich suburban white village. The cops seemed to do the best they could, for the most people they could, with the tools they had, as fairly as they could, which kinda sounds like real world justice. Sure, fine, whatever, that doesn't sound like justice to me back home, but then again Cleveland isn't my home town, either. Isn't the moral relativism argument delicious? I got no problem with Cleveland Justice especially when Cleveland needs it and its over there not over here. I pay a lot of money for it to be over there and not over here, which has an interesting side effect of accumulating neighbors of a type that doesn't require it anyway. I know how I want to live and they apparently disagree and I think that's very multicultural of both of us to live and let live.
Obviously they're not crazy or stupid, a lot of cops came up with the same solution. If a lot of people think something's right, and you can't understand their point of view, that's your problem, not theirs. In their culture, which isn't mine and probably isn't yours, they were doing the right thing, and if you don't understand or like their culture, that's just being racist. I'm open minded. Not a racist bone in my body.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @05:42PM (1 child)
You type a lot for somebody who is obviously trolling.
I think you know exactly why what the cops were doing isn't justice.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @05:56PM
He's a troll, whether intentional or not. All about 'Murica and Freedom until it bumps up against his righteous meter. Then he gets the kick of self-righteous justice smacking down the bla... *cough* bad people. This is the guy who further up the thread had to toss in a basketball reference in his football analogy because apparently he must always point out that he is addressing a "different" part of the population. Now I won't go full blown "he's racist" but c'mon, the guy obviously can't let go of some deeply ingrained beliefs. He already stated it isn't justice, but continues on about criminal records because deep down he is just so happy that some shit got piled on people he doesn't like. The "modern" concept of justice is truly outside his domain, apparently he can't fathom why we let people we "know" are criminals walk freely in the streets. Here's a hint VLM, belief and evidence are not the same thing for a good goddamn reason.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday March 28 2017, @04:34PM (7 children)
VLM, I'm as cynical as the next guy. But, sometimes, the fucking criminals finally learn their lessons. Sometimes too, one of them "gets saved", "sees the light" or whatever. People scoff at religion, but it can and does change lives.
So - some lamebrained retard fails to learn respect for other people's property until he's been busted and imprisoned for the Xth time. He finally learns to respect other people and their property. But, you'll forgive the cop(s) who frame him, and send him back to prison?
Come on man - "Better that ten guilty men walk free, than one innocent man be convicted." I'm not passionate about that, but I do believe it.
I'm also something of an authoritarian. Cops are authority figures. Many times, they are the ONLY authority in sight. I'm fine with that. I will render some respect for their position, and the difficulty of their job. But, the flip side of being an authoritarin, and understanding authority, is that YOU HAD BEST NEVER ABUSE YOUR AUTHORITY!!
IMO, the moment these cops abused their authority, they forfeited any rights they had prior to doing so - including the right to life. It's not like the cops didn't know any better. They can't claim ignorance. Can't blame a bad upbringing. Can't claim poverty, when they are taking home as much or more than the people they are targeting. These are just evil sumbitches who decided to rob the defenseless.
One bullet each, to be administered through the ear. Fek 'em.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday March 28 2017, @05:01PM (6 children)
the ONLY authority in sight
Can't have it both ways, can't be sovereign in which case they can do no wrong by definition, at the same time as being limited. If they're being limited, have you seen that place, clearly the people doing the limiting are failing at their job and the cops ethically and morally gotta kinda work around those failures. I'm OK with a little adapt and overcome.
They either have authority or they don't have authority. A lot of hand wavy stuff about process this and process that, but if the overall system doesn't work, and clearly it doesn't , not there, I'd then generally prefer putting my trust in the cops rather than the alternative. There's always a tradeoff and I'm just saying optimum society probably doesn't involve the streets swarming with criminals but at least 100% of cops are perfectly straight. A percent or two of cops being a bit bent with a result of cleaning the streets is likely to be better off for the whole community. Sounds a bit heartless to the career criminal being falsely accused, but what about the innocent victims of the career criminals who massively outnumber them? If there must be pain and suffering, and we get to select from a small number of career criminals vs a larger set of people like us with clean records, well, they chose their career field knowing it doesn't always end well, so ...
Who's to say some falsely accused career criminal didn't find God or whatever during his false accusation? Maybe these bent cops didn't just save the life of a future victim, or many victims, but also saved the life of the career criminal. I can hand wave unprovable stuff just as well, after all.
I suspect the people they busted, really needed busting. Yes, sure, all your stories about in theory its not possible to prove a career criminal could not straighten out and fly right, in theory, despite the odds of an asteroid strike being higher. In that same vein I can propose with just as much proof and evidence that none of them were busted at a job site or school or AA meeting or church or doing a presentation at a "scared straight" youth group.
Yeah its wrong that we don't rehabilitate. But knowingly letting them out to take innocent victims seems an unjust way to argue rehabilitation.
All I'm saying is, for the good people of Cleveland, are the streets safer before the releases or after the releases? Obviously, when these cops were doing their thing, on average Cleveland was a better place.
They might have been breaking some abstract law or some policy or some BS. But their hearts were in the right place, their motive seems pure. The result, until they got caught, was in fact a net positive to the city. Sometimes the city is a tough place to live, and maybe for awhile it was a little harder for career criminals while being a little easier for victims. In that way, on a longer term, its almost a victimless crime. I could see firing the cops. Maybe some misdemeanor on par with accidental discharge of a firearm or disturbing the peace. It seems a little overboard to throw the book at a bunch of fundamentally good people trying to do the right thing with basically good results, or even crazier stuff about shooting cops.
Now some cops do need punishment. I'm not an idiot or a bleeding heart who thinks none ever do. For example, cops that shoot black kids in the back for laughs, that sort of cop. I'd save the bullets aimed at the cops in the article for more appropriate targets.
The cops in the article are good folks, they didn't do nothing wrong. Well some handwavy legal BS this and that, but cops take IQ tests to keep the smarter people out (true story!) so you can't blame them for not knowing, and they were trying to do the right thing, I'd be mighty lenient with those cops in the article.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by sjames on Tuesday March 28 2017, @05:59PM
You're assuming the career criminals ever took out a victim. Perhaps their criminal career consisted of selling drugs to consenting adults. It could even be that their criminal career consisted of getting busted for "possession" of drugs they didn't know existed followed by the crooked cops busting them over and over because they had a record and must have done something. If Ohio has the same problem Massachusetts does with it's drug lab, that first possession charge might even not have been drugs at all. Or it could be "failure to lick boots quickly enough" in some other jurisdictions.
My neighbor's son got arrested a year ago. Their "probable cause" was "black kid walking in a white neighborhood". I'm not exaggerating.
That's the problem with the "they must have done something" school of law enforcement, one error snowballs into a lifetime of persecution.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @06:15PM (2 children)
Holy CRAP!
Can't have it both ways, can't be sovereign in which case they can do no wrong by definition
First, he didn't use the word sovereign and even in the days of yore kings and queens couldn't quite do whatever they wanted. The ones that did push the envelope of propriety were often murdered... You really think that unfettered corrupt police officers won't be worse than career criminals? They are the same damn thing, except the cops get the benefit of being able to conduct their crimes in broad daylight and the protection of the law!!!
HOLY FUCKING CRAP YOUR BRAIN IS DEFECTIVE!!!!!!
You are literally promoting a fascist police state. Full stop.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @06:45PM (1 child)
*holds up an egg*
This is your brain.
*cracks the egg into a frying pan*
This is your brain on Moldbug.
Any questions?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @07:45PM
*Holds up a human brain*
This is your brain.
*Drops brain into a hot frying pan*
This is your brain in a frying pan.
Please, no questions.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Tuesday March 28 2017, @07:24PM
They might have been breaking some abstract law or some policy or some BS. But their hearts were in the right place, their motive seems pure.
The cops in the article are good folks, they didn't do nothing wrong. Well some handwavy legal BS this and that, but
Letting me down here, VLM. You were doing so well this week...
Framing people and planting evidence, regardless of whether they did or did not do it, is WRONG. You're ready to throw away "guilty until proven innocent" so casually.
To borrow a line from "Shooter,"
"Colonel, your moral compass is so fucked up, I'll be shocked if you manage to find your way back to the parking lot."
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday March 28 2017, @08:13PM
Can't have it both ways, can't be sovereign in which case they can do no wrong by definition, at the same time as being limited.
Police aren't sovereign.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday March 28 2017, @05:24PM (6 children)
So we're being manipulated into thinking it could happen to folks like us. The cops like "yer registration sticker fell off your plate" then he tosses the brick of coke in the back seat and yesterday you had a clean record and next thing you know you're in prison for a decade.
It's not manipulation. It's stopping the rot before it gets worse. They targeted "dirtbags" because they could get away with that. If they continued to get away with it, then who'd be next? They won't stop with just the easy prey, there's not much money in that. Given that they apparently had been doing this for a while, odds are good that they had already expanded their activities to other sorts of victims by the time they were caught.
the cops are the good guys in this movie
The bottom line is that these detectives swore to uphold the law. They betrayed that trust. Also note that as a result of this corruption over 20 people were falsely imprisoned and then released when the conviction fell apart. Even if these prisoners are "dirt bags" who would have gone to jail anyway in a matter of weeks, they're dirt bags that will return to the public because police didn't do their job right.
But my take is that this had nothing to do with justice or protecting the public. It's about some corrupt officers using their power to rob people.
(Score: 1, Troll) by VLM on Tuesday March 28 2017, @05:38PM (5 children)
If they continued to get away with it, then who'd be next?
Today he's abusing energy drinks, tomorrow it could be Heroin!
Yeah I donno man the coverage implies a bunch of cops behaving the same way for a long time.
Australian Aboriginals are on a different path than us, but you can't predict their future by drawing a vector from us to them and then extending it. Stuff don't work that way. Likewise without any documented evidence to prove it, I think it highly likely this is just how big city Cleveland Cops are, its a life style not a life path.
It's about some corrupt officers using their power to rob people.
OK thats VERY interesting.
What do you propose is their motive? You seem to be claiming private financial gain, like they were taking bribes to put the crooks away or a bounty or just outright stealing. I'd be pretty pissed off if that were the case. But that's the first I've read of anything like that.
Looks to me like their motive was cleaning up the streets, making Cleveland a little safer for the victims, err, I mean citizens.
"Protect and Serve" might be said ironically or it might be an obsolete joke. Whatever. To some extent its still "a thing" and on its spectrum if some cops some of the time in Cleveland were a little too motivated on that analog spectrum, making some people a little squeamish, that's not exactly the fall of the roman empire.
Just because I don't, and don't want to, work in a meat packing plant, doesn't mean I dislike those employees or think they're wrong. They just do stuff different over there, and it seems to work for them, so if I'm a bit squeamish about their antics, that shouldn't matter ... If you don't like watching sausage being made, one interesting solution is to not complain about people making sausage as long as its healthy and tastes good.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @05:45PM (2 children)
So they were acting as vigilantes with all the problems that come with vigilantism.
I really like Batman, but most of us can tell the difference between fiction and reality. I think you have a problem with that.
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by VLM on Tuesday March 28 2017, @06:19PM (1 child)
they were acting as vigilantes
A vigilante is a civilian .... acting in a law enforcement capacity... without legal authority.
No, they were given authority by the local government. AFAIK everyone in trouble is a sworn police officer.
Sometimes definitions matter ... its like improperly calling a government soldier a spy or a rebel. Actually its like accusing an actual legal and official soldier of being a fake "stolen glory" soldier.
Vigilante conduct involves certain degrees of violence.
Not more than the usual amount of resisting arrest type stuff has been claimed.
a number of cases, vigilantism has involved targets with mistaken identities.
Um, no? The stories I've read are fairly specific that the "right" career criminals were targeted. We are talking about professional police officers here, not mere vigilantes after all (LOL).
Vigilantism in literature, folklore and legend is connected to the fundamental issues of dissatisfied morality, injustice, the failures of authority and the ethical adequacy of legitimate governance.
OK in summary that's Cleveland. That tiny aspect is true and I can see how someone could get slightly confused. Stuff happens. But hearing hooves is not proof of either horse or zebra (although its probably one or the other). If vigilantes were operating in Cleveland that would certainly be why. But this story is about slightly bent cops not vigilantes.
extrajudicially punished banditry
AFAIK the career criminals were punished by legally appointed judges not the cops. I know I brought up the "Magnum Force" movie from half a century ago, but these cops were not just gunning down career criminals. Cops usually gun down innocent civilians, usually shooting them in the back, anyway.
And why is the entire legal system getting off the hook here? Isn't that the idea behind division of powers and stuff? Just one bad apple shouldn't ruin everything? All those judges and prosecutors and juries have the cops as their fall guys which is fairly bogus...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @06:55PM
You may find this a difficult thing to process, but the cops broke the law. They are criminals.
I'm not sure, so I figured it was best to ask. Are you familiar with the concept of due process?
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday March 28 2017, @06:03PM
Today he's abusing energy drinks, tomorrow it could be Heroin!
Dude, they apparently already committed several dozen felonies concerning this tampering with evidence and theft. That theft requires some elaboration. We have this group stealing $100k from a victim and putting him in jail for two years on false evidence. We have the person who first documented these criminal cops working with the FBI and getting shook down of $3k by one of the officers at a traffic stop while wearing a wire for the FBI.
We're way beyond abusing energy drinks. These guys were as crooked as a snake.
(Score: 2) by Whoever on Tuesday March 28 2017, @06:04PM
How about you READ THE FUCKING ARTICLE? It's right there in black and white. But I guess that doesn't fit into your narrative, so you you have to ignore it:
(Score: 3, Informative) by jmorris on Tuesday March 28 2017, @05:36PM (1 child)
You seem to have forgotten the plot details of the film. If they were only killing scum it would probably have been ok with Harry, but the whole problem with a vigilante movement is it never stays that way. They bomb gangster pool parties and kill the gangster AND all the guests. Then they have to take out innocent witnesses, including even other cops who learn of the group and refuse to join. By the time Harry ends the problem in his trademark bloodbath style it is clear that he is doing the right thing. Harry pushes the law to the edge but never goes over the line, thus he never has to murder witnesses to cover up what he does. The political types in the SFPD hate him but when he has to face a review board to answer for his actions he always wins because what he did was in fact legal.
And that is what is wrong in today's story. The cops clearly went over the line. Public support for the police entirely depends on this sort of thing being very rare and swiftly punished. Doesn't really matter what form of government you have, the power of that government comes from the consent of the governed. If the masses do not at least give grudging assent you quickly get a revolution. This sort of thing erodes that assent really quick.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday March 28 2017, @05:53PM
AND all the guests
OK in detail maybe using that movie as an example was not so good. It being over 40 years ago is a lame excuse but its the best I have. Action movies are famous for piling up one heck of an innocent bystander death count which is traditionally completely ignored while you watch the good guy and the bad guy fight. Whereas in "Magnum Force" innocent bystanders may have been an unusually significant plot device. OK point taken. I'm going to watch that movie again, if for no other reason than nostalgia about half century old automobiles and clothing styles.
the power of that government comes from the consent of the governed. If the masses do not at least give grudging assent you quickly get a revolution. This sort of thing erodes that assent really quick.
In theory I agree with you. No sarcasm. It is an appealing internally self consistent story. In practice, however, I'll wait till they legalize weed in Cleveland, which frankly affects 1000 times as many smokers as the number of career criminals affected by a couple bent cops. Decades of weed being illegal combined with a couple slightly bent cops implies "consent of the governed" is not being limited by the factor of the bent cops. They can absorb a lot more bent cops before it becomes a bigger problem than weed being illegal for decades. In some sort of south of the border level of corruption madness sure it could be the main problem. But in a prioritized list its likely very low even with unpunished bent cops.
I have slowly been convinced via conversation to move from a position of "give them a medal" to "give them the same level of misdemeanor ticket a weed smoker would get" but I don't see much argument for moving further.
(Score: 2) by Arik on Tuesday March 28 2017, @05:52PM (4 children)
"After all the more victims the "better" a society is, right? That's OK the local citizens are used to being punished by high crime so a little more won't change much."
So your solution to a high crime rate is MORE crime? That doesn't even make sense man.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday March 28 2017, @06:00PM (3 children)
The first part is simple, we pay cops to break the law as their job all the time. Civilians aren't allowed to break the speed limit to catch people, or handcuff people and lock them up, or shoot people who need shooting. Compared to those examples, adjusting evidence held by scummy career criminals is, I admit, probably worse than speeding to catch a criminal, but not nearly as severe as shooting a suspect. It seems reasonable the punishment reflect the severity, so there not being bullet riddled bodies shot in the back laying in pools of blood, and the cops usually get away with that, its hard to get really pissed off at the Cleveland cops.
The second part is just sarcasm. People sure care a lot about the rights of career criminals, and in isolation, if it were free and had no large scale impact, sure that would be nice, but most people in Cleveland do not deserve victimization, so releasing the career criminals is inevitably going to result in many more good people in pain, which seems like the stupidest possible way to run a "justice" system. If good people live longer happier lives without a "justice" system then maybe a little injustice is just what they need.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 28 2017, @06:29PM
Wow, where do you live? Some human zoo such as New York City?
People break "laws" all the time in emergencies, and we only find out about it in the rare case of prosecution, unjust on its face. Speeding: medical emergencies; handcuffing people: citizen's arrest; shoot people: common self-defense.
(Score: 2) by Arik on Wednesday March 29 2017, @04:17AM (1 child)
No we don't.
"Civilians aren't allowed to break the speed limit to catch people, or handcuff people and lock them up, or shoot people who need shooting."
Yes we are. The speed limit, for instance, is a traffic rule and all of those can be violated in emergencies or when safety requires it. We can absolutely shoot, handcuff, and arrest criminals when necessary.
The difference is the cop has the department and the union behind them if something goes wrong, and we don't, so it's more dangerous for us. So we let them do their job when possible. But when not possible, we can certainly do it. They have no powers that are not delegated to them by the people, and the people cannot delegate a power they do not have.
"Compared to those examples, adjusting evidence held by scummy career criminals is, I admit, probably worse than speeding to catch a criminal, but not nearly as severe as shooting a suspect."
Tampering with evidence is a crime that strikes the justice system to the core, particularly when done under the color of law. You're talking perjury as well. To minimize that as a minor matter really makes it clear you don't have any respect for the law at all.
"but most people in Cleveland do not deserve victimization"
Exactly why they need a functioning legal system, not a bunch of criminals wearing badges.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 29 2017, @04:38PM
Just remember that there are professional all shills. Either there are more crazy people here than expected or there are employees of organizations doing their best to increase the chaos. Or a troll, there are those weirdos getting off on misleading / lying to people
(Score: 1) by Guppy on Tuesday March 28 2017, @10:42PM
What a bunch of BS. Personally I think the cops should be pardoned and given a slap on the wrist "you morons best not get caught next time".
The problem with corruption is that it tends not to stay in a nice little box. You imagine the predators will stay in their own territory forever, feeding off "those people" over there. Doesn't work that way. The predators will become more numerous, their appetites will increase. Eventually there won't be quite enough prey for them in their natural territory, and they'll start to feed on different prey, even if the taste is not quite to their liking. Eventually they'll have to start feeding elsewhere.
(Score: 1) by AlphaSnail on Wednesday March 29 2017, @05:43AM
They kept the large portions of the money they seized, which means they were doing it not to bust bad guys, but to put their robbery victims behind bars so there would be no retribution for the money they had stolen. They are just criminals with badges using other criminals as marks. We're not talking chump change either so the incentive was the money, not 'getting bad guys off the street' (and there's no pedos in this story so your think of the children angle is off base as well).