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Politicians and economists lament that certain alpha regions — SF, LA, NYC, Boston, Toronto, London, Paris — attract all the best jobs while becoming repellently expensive, reducing economic mobility and contributing to further bifurcation between haves and have-nots. But why don't the best jobs move elsewhere?
Of course, many of them can't. The average financier in NYC or London (until Brexit annihilates London's banking industry, of course...) would be laughed out of the office, and not invited back, if they told their boss they wanted to henceforth work from Chiang Mai.
But this isn't true of (much of) the software field. The average web/app developer might have such a request declined; but they would not be laughed at, or fired. The demand for good developers greatly outstrips supply, and in this era of Skype and Slack, there's nothing about software development that requires meatspace interactions.
[...]Some people will tell you that remote teams are inherently less effective and productive than localized ones, or that "serendipitous collisions" are so important that every employee must be forced to the same physical location every day so that these collisions can be manufactured. These people are wrong, as long as the team in question is small — on the order of handfuls, dozens or scores, rather than hundreds or thousands — and flexible.
Because the feedlot isn't hiring for Ruby?
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 04 2017, @11:08PM (1 child)
...to get away from ignorant Trump supporters!
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Ethanol-fueled on Wednesday April 05 2017, @03:40AM
Because people who are into computers and software are degenerate weirdos and want to work in places where they won't get the shit beat out of them or fired for being super-autists.
(Score: 4, Informative) by bob_super on Tuesday April 04 2017, @11:20PM (9 children)
I ain't buying a house in the middle of nowhere just because my current job allows me to work remotely. Because my current job can vanish, and I'm now in the middle of nowhere without a job...
Also, and that's really personal right now, you learn more when you work as a team. Most people won't Slack or e-mail (or -shiver- document) even a fraction of those tidbits of information you can gather by talking to someone about tools or projects.
And if you want to exceed the code monkey status, very few jobs will let you have serious responsibilities if you can't be in people's face to argument your decisions.
You can be in a small satellite office away from the Big City and get some of the benefits. But if your family doesn't hold you back, you'll get a better career by being in the hub.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 04 2017, @11:52PM (4 children)
I was in a 'hub' office for years. They closed it. Out of work for a year.
No one, and I mean NO ONE will return your calls if you are not even in the same state. Number in my local area? 3 jobs to submit anything to. Got an onsite out of 2 of them. If you think they are picky in a big city you have seen nothing like those in a small city.
Moved to a much larger city where there are a lot more opportunities.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @02:01AM (2 children)
During each of my last two job hunts, after having been fired no less, I got flown diagonally across the country. That's about 3500 miles each I suppose, plus a north-south trip of about 2000 miles. It's not a big deal. Considering just the airports I used, I flew:
1. Boston Massachusetts to LA California
2. Boston Massachusetts to Fort Lauderdale Florida
3. Fort Lauderdale Florida to Seattle Washington
Your problem might be that you are more into art than tech, perhaps something involving web sites or phone apps or games. Real programmers write C and assembly for things like VxWorks and the Linux kernel. (that was me) Real programmers write code that runs inside things like radar, pacemakers, autopilots, anti-lock brake controllers, air-to-air missiles, LASIK surgery robots, hypervisors, telecom switching equipment, photocopiers, police radio handsets, satellites, VoIP conference phones, etc.
I don't love moving, but I expect it. Moving is required to get the best jobs, especially if you want to live in a place that feels like America or is affordable. I have my half-acre lot, and could have had either a beachfront house or a wooded 5-acre lot with room to shoot in the backyard. I don't pay state income tax. I have the security of a solid stand-your-ground law.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @10:39AM
Yup, no tech in game engines. Nope, not at all.
(Score: 2) by TheRaven on Wednesday April 05 2017, @01:03PM
sudo mod me up
(Score: 2) by mechanicjay on Wednesday April 05 2017, @04:24PM
No one, and I mean NO ONE will return your calls if you are not even in the same state. Number in my local area? 3 jobs to submit anything to. Got an onsite out of 2 of them. If you think they are picky in a big city you have seen nothing like those in a small city.
This is completely false in my experience. I lived in NJ, had Seattle targetted for my destination. This meant updating my location to Seattle on Linked-In, Monster, every recruitment agency that called, etc. Explaining that I was actively trying to relocate to Seattle when I would get calls back. I got interviews, was flown out here for an on-site, and landed two offers with about a 4-6 month search. I probably could have landed something sooner, but I had the luxury of enjoying the job I was in and didn't want to take just any job.
With cell phone numbers able to follow you around now for what almost 10 years? A local number means very little any more except to the small and provincially minded -- in other words, no one I want to work for anyway.
My VMS box beat up your Windows box.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by kaszz on Wednesday April 05 2017, @02:01AM (3 children)
I think you are right on target. Big cities = many people = many job opportunities to choose from. Rural setting = pray everyday your job continue to exist. And if it doesn't you are possibly stuck with a need to move really fast into a crowded city with few housing options. By settling in a big city there's usually always options for some nice work without the need to move.
On top of that, there's a lot more shops to supply any hardware needs, more entertainment, food and social options. But one doesn't necessarily have to live in the city. The important thing is to have quick and efficient access to it.
However there's some aspects of this that are less than good. If you need to take out a huge bank loan to afford a place to live to access the workplace then you are taking an economic investment risk in the property market for your employers benefit without any return. Should the market turn sour you will be stuck with a big loan for something you can't sell and no income to pay it either. Other situations may put you in a situation where you live in an expensive apartment where most of your money goes to rent and most of your time goes to sleep or work which perhaps is kind of pointless. Having hobbies that requires space is also an obstacle in premium price cities.
It may pay to optimize for the size of the city!
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @02:07AM (2 children)
Keep a couple years of pay available in near-cash form. When the job goes, you pick another rural location and move.
The benefit: you get to live in places that are peaceful and cheap. You can spend $50,000 to $400,000 on a house, maybe getting an acre of land or more. Your taxes may be low. Your 2nd amendment is not infringed.
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @06:27PM (1 child)
lol... 2nd amendment... yeah that's a priority when looking for a job. also if they ban homosecsurals from molesting baby girls in the ladies toilets.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @07:25PM
That was a pretty ignorant comment. Why did you bother with it? Is it supposed to be a form of humor to attempt to portray people who acknowledge the second amendment for what it is, as stupid bigots? If that is the case, then it was neither funny nor insightful. You should be embarrassed that you took the time to post and submit that comment. There is no need to be so immature and close minded here.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 04 2017, @11:27PM (13 children)
Its because humans are social animals. The more experts in near proximity the greater the opportunity for them to collaborate, formally and informally. Smart people rubbing shoulders with other smart people is the primordial soup of creativity. Its why cities are vastly more productive than rural areas. The friction of long-distance communication overwhelms the cheaper cost of living.
(Score: 2) by Uncle_Al on Tuesday April 04 2017, @11:33PM (11 children)
because there are more people in cities.
Rural areas are more productive at keeping your fscking food on the table.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 04 2017, @11:53PM (9 children)
Rural areas are more productive at keeping your fscking food on the table.
No they aren't. Not even close.
Rural areas have been made vastly more productive because of technology developed by people in the cities.
Crop yields have increased by over 400% over the last 60 years because of technology from the cities. [unl.edu]
(Score: 2) by Pino P on Wednesday April 05 2017, @01:08AM (8 children)
Yet the technology from the cities still needs to go to the country because of zoning restrictions enacted by city governments. Some cities have even threatened jail time for victory gardeners such as Julie Bass (source [huffingtonpost.com]), though in her case the city of Oak Park later dismissed the charges without prejudice (source [naturalnews.com]; source [washingtonpost.com]).
(Score: 1, Troll) by kaszz on Wednesday April 05 2017, @01:33AM (5 children)
Could the war against veggies be related to this? National Guard Whistleblower: “Doomsday Preppers Will Be Treated As Terrorists” [infowars.com] (2012). Rand Paul warns that having more than 7 days of food government considers having guns or storing more than 7 days of food a possible terrorist activity [offgridsurvival.com] (2011) and Terrorism Update: FBI Targets Preppers and Preparedness Supplies In Latest Bulletin [shtfplan.com] (2011).
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @02:11AM (4 children)
from huffpo to naturalnews to infowars, this thread has really gone down the crazy drain
its not a good look for anti-city folk
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Ethanol-fueled on Wednesday April 05 2017, @03:47AM (3 children)
There should be no reason for any authority to be fucking with peoples' gardens or willingness to collect rainwater for home use. That crosses the line from keeping the peace to jackboot thuggery and extortion, and sends the disturbing message that no, they don't want you to be self-sufficient even if you are helping the environment and reducing the city infrastructure burden in the process.
There are entire non-affluent towns even in rural California where the codes are aggressive and the code-enforcement people do nothing but drive around all day looking to cite people for untrimmed grass and shrubbery.
(Score: 2) by Bot on Wednesday April 05 2017, @06:46AM (2 children)
> no, they don't want you to be self-sufficient
For the inherently satanic power system, which spans most, dare I say all nations, self-sufficiency IS subversion. Beyond the flags and the ideologies, the system works in the same way and does not need any other unifying/synchronizing factor than greed (or the actual satan whose existence I wouldn't discard on principle).
Account abandoned.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @06:32PM (1 child)
The SYSTEM totally wants to stop you growing carrots, dude. That's what the the alien hieroglyphs were warning us about in the pyramids.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Friday April 07 2017, @11:15PM
The system want you to need their fiat currency either through work or by aid. It's the same, it keeps you dependent.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @02:09AM (1 child)
(a) naturalnews is a nutjob website, if they get something right its like a broken clock between right twice a day
(b) don't assume a couple of isolated stupid cases is representative of anything, especially when the example is one where sanity ultimately prevailed
(Score: 2) by Pino P on Wednesday April 05 2017, @12:57PM
(a) That's why I linked three sources: to make sure the story remains readable even if one of the sources gets paywall-happy or the link otherwise rots.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 06 2017, @06:41PM
Rural areas are more productive at keeping your fscking food on the table.
Yeah and other raw materials but that's about it.
Cities are more efficient for most other stuff. If you put a hospital in a city it can serve far more people more easily than if you put a hospital in a rural area. Same for many other stuff (that's why many city states like Singapore, Hong Kong etc do so well in many metrics).
And per capita they are better for the environment too. They are not good for the environment but they are the lesser evil. Better to have millions of pesky humans living in cities with a relatively small footprint than have millions of pesky humans spread out with 3 acres each. 900 million acres = 6 times the area of Texas, more than the entire land area of India. Where will the wildlife and wild-plants live?
http://www.citylab.com/work/2012/04/why-bigger-cities-are-greener/863/ [citylab.com]
(Score: 3, Interesting) by kaszz on Wednesday April 05 2017, @02:11AM
Some humans have the need to coach their employees into their open office disruption range at a fixed time where they can impose their monkey needs of body language. And wreck concentration with chatter, pen drops and interruptions. Not something that is good for rewriting vm-core allocation scheme.
Sometimes one can question if the meaning of employees is to keep the management company and show off, or it it's to make kickass products.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by NewNic on Tuesday April 04 2017, @11:32PM (3 children)
Perhaps the "best*" cities become the most expensive.
* For whatever defines "best" in the minds of the people who live there.
lib·er·tar·i·an·ism ˌlibərˈterēənizəm/ noun: Magical thinking that useful idiots mistake for serious political theory
(Score: 3, Insightful) by bob_super on Tuesday April 04 2017, @11:46PM
There's clearly a "because they can" element, due to higher tech salaries.
*Why do top bankers and CEOs flock to the most expensive penthouses?*
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @06:37PM (1 child)
no no no, the free market doesn't apply in the case of what places are better. cheap, rural places are BETTER because....??? the 2nd amendment? i mean, just better because reasons.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @07:35PM
I assume you are the same AC from above. Again, you're pushing your anti-gun agenda to ensure you've been heard. Again, your comment was a waste of disk space. You didn't care to offer a thought out opinion, it was an attempt at poor humor to degrade people who don't believe precisely as you do. I ask once more... why? Why did you take the time to put in a completely redundant and unneeded comment? What about people exercising their rights on their own time, dime and property irks you so badly that you have to prowl internet sites to proclaim your distaste to any who will read? You not only post your distaste but attempt to poorly ridicule those who do not also share your beliefs and opinions. If you are not a teenager or younger you should be ashamed. If you are a teenager or younger, I urge you to re-examine your priorities in life so you might be a more well-rounded person in the future.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 04 2017, @11:53PM (2 children)
I assume it's because anyone dumb enough to write somebody else's programs for a living is dumb enough to live in a big city.
The way I see it, you can get 80% of the benefits of the big city life (which as far as I'm concerned are all directly or indirectly about more "places", of every sort, within walking or cycling distance) by living in (or better yet, near) a big town or small city, with 20% of the pain, frustration and expense.
And as for programming -- it's fun! I'd be a damned fool to ruin that fun by tying my livelihood to it and giving up control of what I program, especially in light of how very many developer jobs seem to be hellholes of frustration.
So either most people who get developer jobs and live in big cities are pretty dumb, or maybe I'm dumb. Obviously, I prefer to believe the former.
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @01:19AM
I agree with everything you say.
However, I moved to a big city. The job opportunities just were not there.
It is also no longer 'fun'. It is however pretty much all I am any good at. I am very very very good at it too. But fun is not what I would describe it as anymore.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @04:05AM
Yeah, I made the mistake of turning a programming hobby into a job. It's been nothing but frustration.
Having lived outside of big cities my whole life, though, I think I want to give city life a try once. I get more liberal the older I get.
The benefits of being away from big cities are pretty tangible, though.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by dltaylor on Wednesday April 05 2017, @12:07AM (10 children)
I know that there are developers/programmers with a variety of beliefs, but in most of the more expensive cities in the USofA, "Which church do you attend?" is not in the top 10 early conversation items, unlike many smaller communities where I hear it all to often.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday April 05 2017, @12:35AM
I generally reply something along the lines of "None. It cuts into my fishing time." Have yet to get the hairy eyeball for that anywhere rural on account of that being an officially approved reason to not go to church, along with hunting.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @01:45AM (3 children)
I doubt that's it. In Europe where religion is very much a private matter and people won't nose into yours, developers still tend to flock to big expensive cities.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Wednesday April 05 2017, @01:57AM (2 children)
Yes, but here in America it very likely IS a significant reason that so many younger people are abandoning the smaller towns and cities (the conservative ones). Only a tiny fraction of these young people are software developers; this article of course concentrates on that profession, but the urbanization of America lately (with a huge amount of gentrification) is not just from tech workers, it's across society.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @02:05AM
The jobs went 'elsewhere'. In the state I live in they literally packed up the machines that made the items then shipped them to Mexico then to china. The people in those areas have nothing other than crime and drugs. There are thousands of those 'company' towns that are now dying or dead. When you see friend after friend OD'ng or ending up in prison, you move on. One city I live near was fairly nice when I moved here about 20 some years ago. Now it is a crime ridden slum. The jobs are gone.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @02:39AM
Part of it is the transformation to a service economy.
Manufacturing requires supply-chains but not anywhere near the kind of density that the person-to-person nature of service work does.
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @02:57AM (2 children)
Look, it's mostly just Christians. You city folk are used to other stuff, where rejecting the faith will get your head cut off. Christians are more like Sikh and Buddhist.
Asking "Which church do you attend?" will at worst affect friendship, not survival. You can give a "wrong" answer and live.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @04:10AM
I've had Christians become violent with me.
But I will admit that I've learned that every reason I have to hate Christians and Jews is equally applicable to Muslims.
All three religions are a disease.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @04:27AM
> You city folk are used to other stuff, where rejecting the faith will get your head cut off.
Yeah... you've never been to a city, have you?
(Score: 2) by Magic Oddball on Wednesday April 05 2017, @04:48AM
I think that depends more on the part of the country (or region) you're in than the size of the community. I know people in the semi-rural North SF Bay "city" I've spent my life in just generally don't ask or assume anyone else belongs to a church.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @01:14PM
but in most of the more expensive cities in the USofA, "Which church do you attend?" is not in the top 10 early conversation items, unlike many smaller communities where I hear it all to often.
In over 30 years not once has anyone ever asked me that question anywhere in the US, no even down in the deep south.
(Score: 3, Informative) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday April 05 2017, @12:40AM (1 child)
You'd be surprised. I spent a decade or so contracting with organizations where the local population was never over 10K and made out quite nicely. It's the same work but instead of one client you have dozens. And they appreciate you a hell of a lot more than any middle management shitball ever will.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Wednesday April 05 2017, @03:19AM
My accounting professor's first job after getting his CPA was with a rural cattle-ranch. The inventory were head of cattle (note, that is not a typo, they say 500 head of cattle rather than 500 heads of cattle).
(Score: 2) by Snotnose on Wednesday April 05 2017, @12:52AM (7 children)
CSB. Mid 80s, I've been a software developer for some 5 years in San Diego. A co-worker had a job interview (she was a tech writer) in Santa Barbara, we decided to make a weekend vacation out of it. Drive up Thursday after work, Friday she goes into her interview. I put on some shorts, grab a beer, and head to the pool. Soon I have a shadow over me, and I don't remember her name says "Um, this guy wants to talk to you". Yep, I did a job interview by the pool, in my shorts, 2-3 beers in, and passed.
Turned out they wanted me for my 2900 family bit slice experience (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Am2900). They offered me a job for something like 1.5x my current salary. I turned them down because it was Santa Barbara, which had exactly 1 tech firm and they were the ones offering me the job. That and all my family and friends were in San Diego.
Good thing too, the company went toes up a year or two later. I think it was Floating Point Systems, making boards to do floating point calculations like an 8087 on steroids, but I can't swear to that.
There was one other interesting thing that happened on that trip. This was right after California decided restaurants had to have smoking/no smoking sections. We were finishing up, when some woman fired up a cigarette in the non smoking section. Waitress said "you can't smoke here", woman said "but the smoking section is full". Had we not been paying up and leaving that woman would have had a glass of water on her head.
When the dust settled America realized it was saved by a porn star.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @02:13AM (1 child)
Had we not been paying up and leaving that woman would have had a glass of water on her head
look out folks we have an almost bad ass here...
(Score: 2) by Snotnose on Wednesday April 05 2017, @02:41AM
To be clear, I hate smokers. Have since high school, 70's. A glass of water on her head would have been the minimum I did to her.
No internet tough guy here, just a non-smoker who hated smoke.
When the dust settled America realized it was saved by a porn star.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Wednesday April 05 2017, @02:19AM (4 children)
I like the idea of pouring a glass of water on some rude person's head like that, but I'm really curious: what could legally happen to you if you did that? Anyone in law enforcement care to answer?
(Score: 2) by nethead on Wednesday April 05 2017, @05:28AM (3 children)
It's assault. And if you do it to your wife it's domestic violence. Don't ask.
How did my SN UID end up over 3 times my /. UID?
(Score: 2) by Arik on Wednesday April 05 2017, @12:54PM (1 child)
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Wednesday April 05 2017, @02:24PM
Well we aren't talking about a wife or girlfriend here, I was asking about dumping a glass of water on some stupid woman who lights up a cigarette in the non-smoking section (back in the time when we still had smoking and non-smoking sections). I guess "rarely prosecuted" is my answer (plus the extenuating circumstances of her breaking the rules with her smoke).
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @11:20PM
Assault? You were putting out a potentially very dangerous fire!
(Score: 3, Funny) by Mykl on Wednesday April 05 2017, @12:52AM (7 children)
In my opinion, most of these "anyone can telecommute!" articles come from people who desperately want it to be true, because they can't stand to be around people.
I've spent 20 years working across a range of large organisation and have experienced a mix of onsite, offshore and distributed workforces. The most productive teams I've been a part of have always been those that are co-located (the worst are the ones where the dev work is done offshore).
No doubt my own bias is creeping in here (I do like interacting with people), however I suspect that there is a reason that the world's top technology companies continue to maintain offices...
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @01:09AM
Many bad, inefficient practices continue to exist, but their mere existence does not prove they are good.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Wednesday April 05 2017, @01:40AM (5 children)
Depends on what "offshore" means? India "me very good" mixed with management MBAs. A lot of top open source projects are done "offshore" and they beat a lot of commercial software. I suspect the efficiency is down to other things than physical presence.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Grishnakh on Wednesday April 05 2017, @02:03AM (4 children)
I hate to be a naysayer and argue against telecommuting, but I really do feel I need to point out a huge difference here: passion. Open-source projects in general are done because some person or small group of people have a serious passion for something, and decide to do it even though they don't even have an employer paying them to work on it every day. Sometimes they do turn into paid work (as with some Linux Foundation jobs, and also Mozilla), but usually not. Really smart, highly-motivated people are going to be highly productive anyway, esp. when they're self-directed. Most commercial software just isn't like this; people work on it because they're paid to, and that's it, not because it's really what they want to do. Maybe they find it interesting enough, but likely it's not what they'd be doing with their free time if they were independently wealthy, whereas working on, perhaps, some video game emulator is. No company is going to pay you to contribute to MAME or ZSNES.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Wednesday April 05 2017, @02:40AM (3 children)
So the physical office is there to numb and coach people enough to do completely bland tasks? ;-)
(Score: 2) by lx on Wednesday April 05 2017, @01:04PM (2 children)
There is that and it's a place to store people who can't be trusted to walk free during the day. Much like schools.
Both institutions serve a valuable purpose.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Wednesday April 05 2017, @02:20PM
Smells systematic imprisonment a long way.
You can walk away anytime you like.. if you can find money to get food .. :P
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @04:16PM
This is so true. There is a significant difference between the productive telecommuter and the office social butterflies that can't be trusted to sit at their desk even when they are physically at the office.
Forcing them to sit there means that something will get done once the distractions available via the computer are exhausted.
Sadly, many of them find value in having a meeting and numerous attendees on a conference call. Even when you cage them, they still can cry out through the bars.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by jmorris on Wednesday April 05 2017, @01:10AM (10 children)
The good IT jobs are in a couple of big cities because that is where all of the interesting tech companies are. The tech companies are there because that is where the VC is and VC has enough pitches from local people and they like that they can drop in and check up without airfare involved to bother with people who aren't smart enough to figure out why they aren't getting funded out in flyover country. Hot IT companies like to be able to show the VC their weird tatted / pierced spergy 'talent' to show them they have 'real' hard core coders. That leaves the boring stuff at boring corporate accounts for potential remote work but it is being offshored and H1B replaced as quickly as possible and it is hard to live anywhere in CONUS and compete with India once you surrender the advantages from being in meatspace sitting in a cube.
It really is that simple, it is about the VC preferences. All the talk about other reasons why to be in the city are noise against that VC signal.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @01:22AM (5 children)
h1b/offshore you get what you pay for. The last couple of projects I worked on we used them quite a bit. We finally got tired of shit code, and randomly rotating people with 0 consistency in the replacement. We would h1b only if we really could not find anyone. That was pretty rare. We brought all projects back in because the contractors kept dragging it along and delivering crap quality. You get what you pay for. We needed quality and got crap.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @01:43AM (4 children)
Then the problem may be that the people doing the hiring have absolutely no idea what they're doing.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @02:10AM
We went with the big offshore companies and a few small ones. The contractor companies do. not. care. If your project eats it then 'oh well'. They may even comp your money back. But you have lost 6 months of time with nothing but a kiss and a promise. We tried pair programming them, intense waterfall, agile, 24/7 rotation monitoring, micromanaging, everything. We could not get these companies to deliver quality. We would have to re-QA the whole project and double the dev time. We gave up on it. It may work for others but it did not for us. Everything internal was doing good we were able to manage that.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @04:13AM (2 children)
I think this is the consequence of the professionalization of "business" itself as a thing. MBAs hire MBAs because of a culture of this being the thing to do. And then suddenly you have people making all the decisions believe that programmers are all, more or less, equal and that hiring 10 programmers to do one job means it can get done 10x as fast. I think we're starting to move away from this but it's going to be a slow process. These type of people are so ingrained at the executive level that phasing them out is not something that's going to happen quickly. For instance SpaceX, working on the most bare bones of resources, has already started to overshadow Boeing - a company that had near a century of experience and net income that dwarfed SpaceX's entire worth. This [wikipedia.org] was Boeing's CEO during their downfall. This [wikipedia.org] is their CEO (and chairman) now. They went from a marketing and "businessman" to an aerospace engineer and, lo and behold, the company somehow seems to have been suddenly starting to shift in the direction of progress again. By contrast this [wikipedia.org] is still Lockheed Martin's CEO. I'm sure we can expect ever more great things from them... like the F-35! SpaceX of course being run by Elon Musk - a physicist.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @12:49PM (1 child)
From the wikipedia article about LM's CEO :
What the fuck is a Bachelor of Science degree in Business Administration???
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @05:02PM
A load of B.S.?
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @02:22AM (3 children)
Remember that "interesting tech companies" isn't just pure-software places. If anything, those places are less interesting.
Software gets interesting when it operates equipment that can kill people, intentionally or not. This means everything from medical implants to ICBMs. Bugs that cause funny-looking text on a web site are not interesting. Bugs that cause funny-looking injuries are interesting. Everything is more meaningful when people can die.
(Score: 2) by jmorris on Wednesday April 05 2017, @02:52AM (2 children)
Somehow I suspect the people writing software for things that kill people really don't like the idea of remote work. Security with all the work in a physically secure building is hard enough, security with some guy in a remote city working from a home where God only knows who is wandering in/out and could gain access is a nightmare. How many people (not named Clinton) have a SCIF in their home? Then there is the link.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @05:06AM (1 child)
It took me hours to realize that you were assuming that these jobs would either be in the well-known tech spots (and you'd be rural) or that you'd stay in a well-known tech spot and work remotely.
These life-and-death jobs are often outside the tech spots, and you are expected to move.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @09:08PM
Hours? Um...do you need something better to do?
(Score: 2) by Pino P on Wednesday April 05 2017, @01:12AM
"and in this era of Skype and Slack, there's nothing about software development that requires meatspace interactions."
Other than the requirement to possess specialized developer equipment.
Case in point: physical security requirements of agreements between video game console makers and game studios. For years, console makers forbade home offices because a home wasn't considered a secure office. Nintendo didn't start to ease up on this policy until 2012. Even nowadays, some devkits are expensive enough that buying one to keep in each employee's home is impractical, and some (PlayStation) still require all employees of a studio to access official documentation through a single static IPv4 address.
(Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Wednesday April 05 2017, @02:16AM (2 children)
I've a better question. Why is it that any city with a growing tech sector can't keep up with the demand for housing? It's like they purposely restrict housing to drive up prices, to gouge engineers, because they know engineers are well paid. I hear San Francisco is especially bad at allowing any more housing to be built.
But then, it seems most developers go along with it, let themselves be gouged because they have other things on their minds, don't see the debt trap so many employers set for their employees. Be a real shame you didn't give 110% and work late every night, so your employer went out of business and now you can't afford to live in such an expensive area and your car gets repossessed and you get kicked out of your home. That's the part that baffles me, these really smart people being so blind, clueless, and naive about such employer dealings.
I really think that's a big part why age discrimination is so rampant in IT. Employers prefer the young and naive who can be tricked into believing endless death marches for very junior pay are normal.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @02:46AM
Why is it that any city with a growing tech sector can't keep up with the demand for housing? It's like they purposely restrict housing to drive up prices, to gouge engineers, because they know engineers are well paid.
Because zoning is a local function. So the people who already live there are the ones who vote in zoning board elections. Thus the zoning boards have an inherent bias for supporting current property valuations by denying zoning requests for new construction. Nearly all major cities suffer from the same problem, it isn't unique to SF. The solution is to move zoning control to the state level. Yet another example where local control produces perverse results. Or they could eliminate zoning like in Houston.
(Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Wednesday April 05 2017, @04:01AM
Because space is finite, even vertical space, and there comes a point when people will no longer tolerate runaway growth for any price. The Bay Area is a good example, there certainly is enough housing, but its expensive as fuck so people who work there keep being pushed further and further away, so now public transportation isn't an option -- they must drive, and Bay Area Traffic is a fucking nightmare and proof enough and the infrastructure is overburdened.
And you want more traffic-jams, more 3-4 hour daily communtes, more rising utility rates, pollution -- and the important thing, the more assholes move into a city, the higher rents jump...because landlords can.
San Francisco all typical White liberal hypocrites anyway. They claim to care about the poor and social justice and affordable housing, but bitch and moan everytime their inner NIMBY gets triggered. At best they'll reserve a 50-unit place in the bad part of Oakland for poor jiggaboos and pat themselves on the back for being so progressive.
Cities like New York and San Francisco are going to implode as a result of income inequality and ridiculously inflated housing costs, and the sooner they do implode, the better. You can already see it with the few news articles about rampant vacancies on commercial space in NYC. And the landlords are doing what Jew landlords in big cities typically do, they raise the rents 75% year after year and then try to "sweeten the deal" with a $500 carpet and drape job as concessions to keep you from leaving.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by CZB on Wednesday April 05 2017, @03:14AM (1 child)
Interesting to hear everyone's input here on this topic. I see the amount of money startups burn, for those prices you could buy half a town, remodel it and pay salaries for half a decade.
But it makes sense that the people who run and staff tech companies want to be in the biggest pool where everyone can switch jobs easily. It would take someone with the vision for community building and real estate development besides the tech product the company makes.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @03:59AM
Just inadvertently replied to nearly this exact point here [soylentnews.org].
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @03:56AM
Two main branches here.
The first is development entrepreneurs. If you want to start a business you need money. So you go to areas where there is lots of money and investment available. If you're intelligent and have a half decent idea you can still get 6 figures to make it happen for 20% like it's going out of style in California. There's not exactly a booming venture capital scene in Boise, Idaho or whatever. Another consequence of all that money splashing about is that inflation starts to rise. The next is developers just looking for work. Developers flock to areas with jobs and opportunity. These are going to be the sorts of areas where the entrepreneurs are. These developers also tend to be compensated much more highly in these sort of areas than again in Boise, Idaho. The workers making more money again means costs and inflation starts to rise.
So fundamentally I think the high cost of living is just correlated with the things that people are actually after - on the entrepreneurial and 'worker' side.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Aiwendil on Wednesday April 05 2017, @09:46AM (1 child)
Because eBay/Microsoft buys it?
Skype's stockholm office is closing down currently.
Funny that they would use an actual example as a rhetorical device
(Score: 2) by Koen on Wednesday April 05 2017, @01:12PM
I use jitsi.meet [meet.jit.si] nowadays in stead of Skype: open source [github.com] & no need to install any software: just send a link and talk.
/. refugees on Usenet: comp.misc [comp.misc]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 05 2017, @05:12PM
Although I'd be embarrassed to say I worked for a company named HappyFunCorp, I checked out their 'Careers' page. Every position listed specified that you must reside in or be willing to commute to NYC.