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The controversial show about teen suicide millions of your friends on Twitter are talking about is getting increased content warnings.
The move is the latest in the conversation about the Netflix original program "13 Reasons Why", coming as a response to the backlash and concern about the show's suitability for young viewers.
The streamer released a statement Monday promising to "add an additional viewer warning card before the first episode." It has also "strengthened the messaging and resource language in the existing cards for episodes that contain graphic subject matter, including the URL 13ReasonsWhy.info."
Mental health organisations in Australia reported increased calls and emails since the program's launch in March. In April, New Zealand's classification body ruled that Netflix would have to display a clear warning for the entire series as well as individual episodes, branding it with the region's first ever RP18 rating. The new classification -- created for the program -- recommends people under the age of 18 watch the program only under the supervision of a parent or guardian.
(Score: 3, Informative) by takyon on Wednesday May 03 2017, @12:08PM (58 children)
I've seen a lot of headlines about this show in the past 48 hours. Content so edgy, it causes existential distress in IRL teens!
Netflix has a lot of original shows now. Chances are I never would have noticed this one if it hadn't been for the controversy. Governments just Streisanded suicide.
Here's some free signature text:
Crisis Text Line - If you are immediately concerned about yourself or a friend, reach out for help, TEXT: 741741
National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 4, Informative) by WizardFusion on Wednesday May 03 2017, @12:22PM (2 children)
That number is only good for a small number of people.
If you want to help everyone, try linking to a full (as possible) list of organisations from around the world...
https://www.iasp.info/resources/Crisis_Centres/ [iasp.info]
(Score: 0, Troll) by kaszz on Wednesday May 03 2017, @03:03PM
Gosh, are there like other pieces of land with borders like say a country outside USA? I thought USA was free floating flat land in the middle of the universe where the sun, planets and the galaxy rotated around it ;-)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 03 2017, @06:55PM
There's also jo@samaritans.org (more info [samaritans.org]). Volunteers will answer I believe any email from anybody who needs help. Obviously they're just there to be somebody willing to listen, but sometimes that's good enough to help keep somebody alive long enough so that they can seek counseling. They've helped me out before just by being somebody to talk to.
(Score: 2) by Nerdfest on Wednesday May 03 2017, @12:23PM (52 children)
I would have thought a simple warning like "Warning! This is fictional entertainment, not an instructional video" would have sufficed.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 03 2017, @01:18PM (38 children)
I would have thought a simple warning like "Warning! This is fictional entertainment, not an instructional video" would have sufficed.
Nope.
Suicide is contagious. [nytimes.com]
Its reasonable to assume that people who are already susceptible will 'catch' suicide from this show, particularly from a binge-watch.
Obviously its not many kids that are at risk. And the kind of kid whose parents would sit down and watch it with them is probably already immune to it.
Its also not clear if it might have a deterrent effect because suicide is inherently a selfish act and watching the impact on the people left behind might actually discourage someone from killing themselves (the show is about one kid investigating the suicide of a classmate to find out why they did it, hence the name of the show).
One thing this is true though, this show is very highly rated. Its currently an 8.8 with 65,000 votes on Netflix and last week, before the hype, it was 9.1. Those are crazy high numbers, comparable to netflix's best marvel superhero tv shows.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 03 2017, @01:39PM (19 children)
No, suicide prevention is a selfish act. What right do you have to demand that somebody else serve you against their will?
(Score: 2) by Wootery on Wednesday May 03 2017, @02:12PM (16 children)
You're right, it's totally tyrannical to take a side against suicide!
AC idiocy strikes again.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Wednesday May 03 2017, @03:04PM (15 children)
It's a similar argument to Pro-Choice: What right do you have to control what somebody else does with their body? In this case it's just destroying yourself instead of (or possibly in addition to) the fetus.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2) by Wootery on Wednesday May 03 2017, @09:44PM (7 children)
This is making the misguided assumption that someone who is suicidal is a free agent of right mind. They're not, and it's silly to pretend that it's tyrannical to admit it.
I'm actually in favour of right-to-die, but most suicides are tragic and worth preventing.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Thursday May 04 2017, @02:37PM (6 children)
Maybe in general, but that's a pretty bold blanket statement to make. And of course there are those who would argue that choosing to abort isn't "in their right mind," either.
What do you do if you have a long conversation with them and fail to change their mind? I'm all for discussing it with them, but what about after that if it doesn't work.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2) by Wootery on Thursday May 04 2017, @03:49PM (5 children)
But that's not what we're talking about. [soylentnews.org]
Perhaps some people really can make the decision they'd rather die. That doesn't matter. People tipped over the edge by seeing suicide in fiction are most certainly not in that position.
And of course there are those who would argue that choosing to abort isn't "in their right mind," either.
And some people think taking the morning-after pill is the moral equivalent of murder, but they're simply wrong.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Thursday May 04 2017, @04:06PM (4 children)
Well I'm glad we have you around to tell us what we are and aren't talking about and be the arbiter of right and wrong, then.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2) by Wootery on Friday May 05 2017, @08:08AM (3 children)
That's just silly.
Some things really are just wrong. Suppose there's a tribe that ritualistically blinds every third born child, because of their superstitious beliefs. If you're going to tell me that their moral opinion on the matter is no less valid than mine, then you're out of your mind.
I see little reason to be any less dismissive of absurd claims like moral equivalence between a small bundle of cells and a fully (or, heck, even partially) developed human.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @02:39PM (2 children)
we need a -1 arrogant mod
(Score: 2) by Wootery on Friday May 05 2017, @08:36PM (1 child)
No counterpoint? Try name-calling!
I take it you have no response to the thought-experiment, then?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @08:49PM
picking and choosing of examples here is arbitrary. surely you'd agree that vanilla vs. chocolate ice cream is a right vs. wrong choice, and anyone who picks chocolate must surely die?
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 04 2017, @04:55AM (6 children)
What right do you have to control what somebody else does with their body?
How, exactly, did we get from extra warnings at the start of a show to "controlling" somebody else's body?
You right-wingers make the weirdest equivalencies.
In the USA, everybody is free to kill themselves. They aren't always free to have someone else help them.
But that's not same thing as "controlling" their body.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Thursday May 04 2017, @02:34PM (5 children)
I'm not sure I exactly agree with the argument (and if I did that would make me the opposite of a right-winger...), but that's the wording a lot of people use when they talk about abortion. "You not allowing me to do anything I want with it is controlling my body!"
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2) by Wootery on Friday May 05 2017, @08:12AM (4 children)
but that's the wording a lot of people use when they talk about abortion. "You not allowing me to do anything I want with it is controlling my body!"
I agree that's always a silly line to use, but you've not explained why.
It seems to me that when pro-choice people use that line, they're just betraying their failure to understand their opponent's stance. Pro-lifers (mistakenly) believe that a bundle of cells in a uterus has a moral right to life in the same way a fully-grown human does. Given that belief (and ignoring for now the 'Defence of Abortion' [wikipedia.org] argument that applies even if we grant that belief), it's not unreasonable to want to ban abortion.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Friday May 05 2017, @03:05PM (3 children)
It seems to me that when pro-choice people use that line, they're just betraying their failure to understand their opponent's stance.
Oh, absolutely.
Pro-lifers (mistakenly) believe that a bundle of cells in a uterus has a moral right to life in the same way a fully-grown human does.
Well let me put the question to you this way: At what point between the bundle of cells and "fully-grown" (itself a rather fuzzy term) are we talking about a human life?
I'm not asking you to agree with me, but I'm incredulous you completely deny that there's a debate on this and believe you're objectively correct.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2) by Wootery on Friday May 05 2017, @03:19PM (2 children)
I'm pretty sure I'm correct that the morning-after pill isn't murder, yes. About as sure as I am of anything.
Exactly where you draw the line is a legitimate question, and that's really what the whole debate boils down to, but some answers to this question are clearly absurd.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Friday May 05 2017, @03:47PM (1 child)
It's complicated by apparently the MAP and "the abortion pill" being two separate things. https://www.verywell.com/the-morning-after-pill-vs-the-abortion-pill-906574 [verywell.com]
I would hope that even people who argue that life starts at conception wouldn't oppose the use of contraceptives that prevent fertilization or kill sperm or unfertilized eggs. But we all know how the Catholic Church feels about contraception whatsoever, so hey :P
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2) by Wootery on Friday May 05 2017, @08:33PM
Different pills are just details really, what's morally salient is stage-of-development.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by AthanasiusKircher on Wednesday May 03 2017, @03:16PM (1 child)
I'm not sure if this was meant to be funny or not. The fact that some mod has already marked it "insightful" is disturbing, though.
No, suicide prevention is a selfish act. What right do you have to demand that somebody else serve you against their will?
On the off-chance this was actually serious... (and more importantly to whoever modded this "insightful"):
Well, perhaps for one obvious reason -- in the present case, we're talking about the suicide of MINORS. Parents and guardians restrict the actions of minors all the time. Why? Because minors don't yet have enough experience of the world to sometimes make reasonable decisions for themselves in all things. Just last night I was talking with an acquaintance of mine who is involved in counseling, and he was talking about how he had recently had to deal with parents of a 12-year-old girl who had committed suicide. Even this guy who has had experience with a lot of tough cases was distraught over this: as he said, what can a 12-year-old know of the world and potential suffering and life experience as a whole to justify such an action?
That's not to downplay the potential suffering of minors. (And note in the case above we're not talking about a girl who was dying and suffering from horrible pain in cancer or something.) But minors need guidance and perspective. I thought that'd be obvious.
And even if we're talking about adults, depression is often not just a "mental" thing. A lot of times there are chemical imbalances that drive or at least contribute to depression. And even adults frequently lose "perspective" when they become suicidal.
Note that I'm not against all suicide. Even absent significant pain and suffering (i.e., euthanasia), an adult should have the freedom to choose to take his/her own life. But the vast majority of people who do so often are not making rational choices, and many who attempt suicide regret they did so later. Helping someone make what is undoubtedly the MOST important decision of their life (because in making it, they end their life) by providing perspective or support or help is a very kind thing.
And I applaud those counselors who do it day-after-day. I'm not sure I'd have the strength to do that sort of job.
(Score: 2) by Wootery on Friday May 05 2017, @08:14AM
A very comprehensive reply. I have but one up-mod to give.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Wednesday May 03 2017, @02:11PM (3 children)
... with 65,000 votes ... Those are crazy high numbers ...
TV is dying. I think I've had SN posts with higher mod counts. Well, slight exaggeration. Theres a lot of posts on reddit with more than those numbers (admittedly I mostly use reddit for pr0n, I understand the other subreddits don't get as much traffic due to being too leftie)
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Wednesday May 03 2017, @04:43PM (2 children)
TV is dying.
I've heard that for twenty years, and believed it at first, but every year there are new channels. When I was a kid, nobody had more than one TV, we had three channels. Now I get 18 over the air in a city of only 115,000. How many are TVs in your house now?
Yes, we're watching less TV, because we have computers (some without keyboards). But computers will no more kill TV than VCRs killed the movie theaters.
mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
(Score: 2) by VLM on Wednesday May 03 2017, @06:50PM (1 child)
I donno man. Some of the numbers are pretty dismal. Check out the ratings. number of viewers that would get your show cancelled in the 80s would be considered good today.
Also don't forget that VCRs didn't kill the movie star, but the world is not swimming in 8-trak tapes, CB radios, lava lamps, shag carpet, avocado colored refrigerators, analog NTSC transmitters, cassette tapes, reel to reel tapes...
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 04 2017, @05:03AM
Check out the ratings. number of viewers that would get your show cancelled in the 80s would be considered good today.
Ah, VLM and his alt-math.
During the 80s there were 3 major channels.
Divided the total audience by 3 and of course you will get much larger numbers.
Now, with on-demand. there are effectively infinite channels.
The number to look at is total industry revenue, not per-show audience size.
And by that metric, tv is doing fine, at well over $170B/yr.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 03 2017, @02:49PM (10 children)
suicide is inherently a selfish act
Fuck off with your victim blaming bullshit.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Immerman on Wednesday May 03 2017, @04:08PM (9 children)
Why? The "victims" will never hear it to have their feelings hurt, and for that matter neither will the perpetrators - both being destroyed in a single selfish act that is likely to deeply hurt anyone who cared about them, while not benefiting anyone except themselves (and maybe not even them, depending on how the reality of being dead aligns with their expectations - a topic for which we have much conjecture but pretty much zero scientific evidence to support any position).
Not that I think we should try to coercively prevent it - I believe deeply that our life is our own and nobody else has a right to demand that it continue, and their are in fact situations where it may be the reasonable choice. But suicide prevention services mostly exist for the benefit of people trying to talk *themselves* out of making a rash and irreversible decision.
(Score: 2) by Wootery on Thursday May 04 2017, @03:52PM (8 children)
a topic for which we have much conjecture but pretty much zero scientific evidence to support any position
Nonsense. There is no 'afterlife'. Consciousness depends on brain activity. No suggestion otherwise deserves to be taken seriously.
In addition to that, we know that people who nearly commit suicide, generally live on to be glad they didn't. That's more relevant to our moral calculus here.
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Thursday May 04 2017, @09:22PM (7 children)
Certainly that's where the currently dominant scientific conjecture lies, and it is far more firmly grounded than most - but at this point conjecture is still all it is. We still have no explanation for how consciousness arises in the first place, we don't even have any meaningful hypothesis, much less tested them. At best we know how to interrupt it, but not how it originates or operates. If, for a wildly speculative example, the brain acts as an "antenna" that responds to a "soul" that resides... elsewhere, that would still be completely consistent with current observations.
(Score: 2) by Wootery on Friday May 05 2017, @08:05AM (6 children)
If, for a wildly speculative example, the brain acts as an "antenna" that responds to a "soul" that resides... elsewhere, that would still be completely consistent with current observations.
That's what philosphers call 'dualism'. I don't buy it though. As far as we can tell, consciousness arises from the physical activity of the brain. That's really all we need to dismiss fantasies of an afterlife.
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Friday May 05 2017, @05:36PM (5 children)
If you want to take such seemingly reasonable conjectures as truth based on faith alone, that's your business. But it's not science.
(Score: 2) by Wootery on Friday May 05 2017, @08:30PM (4 children)
Oh come on. We can plot the disruption and suspension of consciousness with neuro-correlate studies. We know that anaesthetics can cause temporary suspension of consciousness, and we know it shuts down parts of the brain. If you seriously want to deny that consciousness arises from brain activity, the onus is on you to make the case.
Occam's Razor. Russel's Teapot. Nothing I'm suggesting here is offensive to scientific rigour.
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Saturday May 06 2017, @01:34PM (3 children)
When we have a well-tested theory that can explain the process that creates consciousness, it will become science. Until then it's only a well-grounded conjecture. History is full of such conjectures being soundly disproven once put to the test.
(Score: 2) by Wootery on Monday May 08 2017, @07:55AM (2 children)
No. The details of how aren't relevant here. It is beyond doubt that our consciousness arises from the physical activities of our brains.
Shielding religions from the truth, and entertaining happy fantasies about afterlives, are not good enough reasons to pretend this isn't the case.
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Tuesday May 09 2017, @12:56AM (1 child)
Really? Wonderful. Please show me your evidence, I would be fascinated.
Perhaps you can find it among the evidence of how the world is a deterministic system built from particles?
(Score: 2) by Wootery on Tuesday May 09 2017, @09:33AM
We know that brain trauma can affect consciousness. We know that drugs can affect consciousness. We know that anaesthetics can suspend consciousness. We know that states of consciousness correspond to states of the brain. We know that parts of the brain are responsible for certain feelings/emotions/sensations. Why on Earth are you taking seriously the idea that consciousness can survive brain-death?
We can draw an analogy with digital circuits. A well-functioning CPU gives rise to data-processing, the way a well-functioning human brain gives rise to consciousness. Undervolt the CPU and you'll start to see peculiarities in the data-processing until eventually it stops altogether. We can do the same thing to consciousness using NASA's centrifuge.
Anyone who suggests that well maybe the chip isn't working, but the data is still being processed elsewhere, and the chip is just a receiver is clearly talking nonsense. The idea of the afterlife is precisely this absurd.
Perhaps you can find it among the evidence of how the world is a deterministic system built from particles?
What are you trying to say here?
(Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Wednesday May 03 2017, @03:39PM (1 child)
> And the kind of kid whose parents would sit down and watch it with them is probably already immune to it.
The comment implies that suicide is correlated strongly with how much time parents spend with their kids. Citation?
The point is that this implies "blame the parents", which I think should be justified.
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Wednesday May 03 2017, @04:21PM
I seem to recall that individuals with a strong emotional support network are far less likely to commit suicide, and it seems likely that a child whose parents are willing to sit through a show about the depths of teenage angst with them (I'm guessing that's the theme, just from the topic) probably has such a support network.
Making the jump to blaming the parents in the case of suicide requires a great deal of additional assumptions. To list just a few: that the child has no agency themselves, that outside forces played no part in the decision, and that providing such support is an important responsibility of the parents (in which case I think most American parents are guilty, and just lucky that their children weren't exposed to the unlikely "perfect storm" of other influences.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 04 2017, @06:16AM
Almost everything life is a selfish act. Everything you do is for your own comfort. Working hard to give your kids a better life, donating to the poor, working to have a nice car, watching TV, trash talking other people, doing homework, etc... It's all done with an end goal of feeling better. Same with suicides. They're living in hell and death is their best way out. For the people calling it a coward's act, go try to kill yourself. It's so simple a coward can do it, but you probably can't even slice your arms open while standing in the ER knowing you'll live. So what then? You're weaker than a coward. Go die and transform back into dirt, at least dirt is useful.
Do you want to know why suicide is contagious? Around every suicide there's people calling the person a coward, selfish, and a bad person for putting everyone around them in pain (despite those people letting that suicidal person live in tons of nothingness. Nothingness is worse than pain, pain gets your body pumping, hopelessness doesn't. Why should the dead guy have been living for those others when they weren't living for him?). So the depressed person feels worse for wanting to escape their hell and they shrink in on themselves even more knowing that if they ask anyone for help they'll imminently be shunned and looked down upon and be told they're hurting the ones around them just for saying they've been depressed. It's a downward spiral where the only out is death. Better be dead, then at least you can't hurt them with your depression. The faster you die, the faster they can get over it and on with their fake happy lives.
Go climb onto a crane and dangle off it 1500 feet above a pool by holding on with one hand. Have all your friends standing in a circle around you laughing in happiness with each other (somehow you can hear and see them, perhaps you're wearing Google Glass). Now set your hand on fire. As soon as you want to put it out or show any sign of pain, have them all start bullying you by calling you an idiot, a coward, selfish, lazy, a disgrace, be told trying to save your hand would case them some pain you ungrateful bastard. They used to see you at family reunions so you better keep burning because you owe it to them for the time they wasted on you.
That's what it's like to be near suicide while around other people or the media. How long can you keep your hand on fire? Letting go to fall into the pool to end the torment from burning alive means you die when you hit the pool. In such a situation, almost every will let go and die hitting the pool rather than letting hand burn itself out. That's what suicide is, blissful relief (a quick splat) from seemingly unending torment and worse, you're not even 100% sure why you're in torment.
Why don't more people kill themselves? When you're deeply depressed you don't have the energy to make a workable plan and carry it out. That feels like way too much effort. That's like the pain from your burning hand is so totally encompassing that you've forgotten how to relax your grip.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 03 2017, @02:05PM
No people will skip right past a warning like that. To prevent an outage you would need something far stronger/longer so that a much higher percentage of people turn it off. Actually, they could even try putting commercials at the beginning to dissuade people from watching this show.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Wednesday May 03 2017, @02:28PM (10 children)
People are getting good boy social signalling points by posting that kind of stuff to social media, so my kids school district did a robocall blast and email last week with a note sent home this week and the twatter and facebook accounts of the teachers and staff and district were going nuts for awhile. Obviously someone putting a lot of money into organizing all this.
Its an interesting marketing strategy. Rather than getting people talking directly about the snuff film, get them doing social signalling for status which is incredibly popular right now, then a side effect is people talking about the show, third level of side effect is people watching, fourth level is they get more revenue, fifth level which is pretty distant is we can expect more social signalling marketing as a strategy and possibly more snuff films too.
About the closest similar recent marketing strategy I can think of was remember that remake of ghostbusters that sucked, so they tried to make the online marketing strategy about how fantastic 15th wave feminism is? Also remember how people laughed at Amy Schumer when she said she would grow up and become a comedian, well, they're not laughing now, and because she isn't any good at acting or being a comedian, one of her marketing campaigns boiled down to have you heard about that Trump guy who sucks?
I mean if what your shipping is unsellably degenerate, it might not be possible to sell in social media directly, its easier to sell social signalling stuff instead to "get the word out"
This is likely the future marketing strategy for how pedo normalization will be violently shoved into our culture despite almost no one wanting it. Not discussing the actual thing, of course, but a concerted effort will be made in social media to "like this post if you love your family" or "like this post if you think kids are cute"... if you get what they mean wink wink nudge nudge. As a guy on the other side politically, I'm thinking up some ways to oppose that kind of marketing strategy. Old traditions like ridicule and hate-facts seems effective as ever...
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Wednesday May 03 2017, @03:10PM (5 children)
What did the school district robocall and email say really? As for finance it sounds just like cover-your-ass action. Not any real care.
Besides isn't that kind of symptomatic. That the buzz comes when a movie points the magnifying glass on the problem instead of actually taking long term preventive action?
(Score: 2) by VLM on Wednesday May 03 2017, @03:26PM (4 children)
What did the school district robocall and email say really?
Pretty much the same as the periodic jaywalking awareness or anti-drug campaigns. We're aware of kids in our district being involved and strongly encourage you to discuss with your children and here's some safety resources now hurry home and be sure to sign up for netflix and watch every episode, well, I added that little bit at the end.
Our district is pretty good about this stuff, they were complaining about yik yak back when none of the normies commented about it, they single handedly drove adoption of that app in our district by complaining about it.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Wednesday May 03 2017, @05:25PM (3 children)
Maybe they hired Streisand-R'-Us ? ;-)
Seem what you got in your hands is a think-of-the-children automaton that lack any consequential thinking ;-)
I'll guess it's not much point in listening to them or pay attention to them?
(Score: 2) by VLM on Wednesday May 03 2017, @07:21PM (2 children)
Seem what you got in your hands is a think-of-the-children automaton that lack any consequential thinking
Yeah, Dept of Education, public school system, modern academia as a leftist theological death cult, that stuff is old in a human lifetime sense, but its only been screwing up our culture for a microscopic percentage of our species lives.
So our 200K year old species spent its first 199950 years conquering mother nature, covering the planet, man made flight, inventing western civilization, inventing modern science, split the atom, travel to the moon, all that stuff we did the old fashioned way before we got all that "help".
Then we get all this "help" from Dept Ed and public schools and the result is all we done in the last 50 years is make sure our kids grow up real stupid, and discover 42 new genders requiring 17 additional bathrooms. Yeah not so impressed with those achievements. Thanks but no thanks.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Wednesday May 03 2017, @08:17PM (1 child)
That's not help. That's indoctrination. Something completely different.
No option for another sane school?
Even if it's just a few parents cooperating to educate their own kids.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 04 2017, @05:06AM
> No option for another sane school?
Have you considered the obvious fact that VLM himself is really alt-sane?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by AthanasiusKircher on Wednesday May 03 2017, @03:24PM (3 children)
People are getting good boy social signalling points by posting that kind of stuff to social media
You really don't think anyone could be sincerely concerned about young people here?
I mean if what your shipping is unsellably degenerate, it might not be possible to sell in social media directly, its easier to sell social signalling stuff instead to "get the word out"
Huh. Your first point depends on everything being "social signaling" because implicitly the warnings must not be necessary or whatever. Now you're arguing that the warnings might actually be justified, so much so that no one actually wants to defend the program.
Your latter point might have some weight if no one was defending this series. To the contrary, it appears to have widespread critical acclaim, the producers and actors are standing by it, etc., etc. So, it seems a LOT of folks are trying to "get the word out" by simply praising it too.
That's not to say that you don't have a point -- obviously sometimes this "reverse psychology" marketing works well. But I don't know that's the main reason for the concern with this series -- doesn't mean it isn't also a side-benefit for Netflix, of course.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 03 2017, @05:59PM
Why do you bother?
VLM doesn't care about logic.
He's all about accusing others of his own worst tendencies.
They don't have to make sense other than VLM is a selfish asshole so he thinks everybody else must be selfish assholes too.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Wednesday May 03 2017, @06:14PM
verything being "social signaling" because implicitly the warnings must not be necessary
Hmm so several social media marketing strategies have been seen "recently"
1) Making something that doesn't suck so there's organic interest and natural desire. I donno, the Lego movie.
2) pound the advertising and complimentary influential coverage. Snakes on a plane?
3) This seems new, like concern trolling. Make sure to wear a life preserver when you go boating and make sure to post the hell out of this to social media to earn as many good boy points as possible, brought to you today by the new fishing boat movie "Perfect Storm". Possibly all new movies or new products will come with a pre-pack social media concern trolling kit... but its not really concern or trolling, sort of social media attention whoring.
"reverse psychology" marketing
That's an interesting fairly accurate way to phrase that marketing strategy. I still think the interesting and unique aspect of this marketing barrage is the context of the social media "concern" push.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday May 03 2017, @10:20PM
I mean if what your shipping is unsellably degenerate, it might not be possible to sell in social media directly, its easier to sell social signalling stuff instead to "get the word out"
Huh. Your first point depends on everything being "social signaling" because implicitly the warnings must not be necessary or whatever. Now you're arguing that the warnings might actually be justified, so much so that no one actually wants to defend the program.
What's wrong with VLM's statements here? They are quite consistent.
Your latter point might have some weight if no one was defending this series. To the contrary, it appears to have widespread critical acclaim, the producers and actors are standing by it, etc., etc. So, it seems a LOT of folks are trying to "get the word out" by simply praising it too.
You mean like the country of Australia putting the show in its own special, superficially restrictive rating category, which will neither materially affect the viewership of the show or the propensity of their citizens to commit suicide? That sort of acclaim? Here in this story, we see exactly the sort of thing that would create more eyeballs to sell for this show while simultaneously displaying some politician's care for the potential suicides of Australia. That's what social signalling is all about.
And I'll note here that publicly expressed disapproval sells. It's not some alien concept, but a common marketing strategy for edgy content (Pulp Fiction, Grand Theft Auto series, Psycho, Citizen Kane, etc).
And existence of defenders doesn't mean that much. They generate publicity for the product as well and can be doing that for status signalling as well.
The real contrary evidence here is the ratings prior to the media storm. The show was already extremely popular by recent TV standards. The show apparently would have sold well anyway even in the absence of this slick marketing campaign.
(Score: 2) by Fnord666 on Wednesday May 03 2017, @03:30PM
I would have thought a simple warning like "Warning! This is fictional entertainment, not an instructional video" would have sufficed.
Can we add that to the front of 1984 also?
(Score: 2) by driverless on Wednesday May 03 2017, @01:57PM (1 child)
Has Netflix considered calling in Big Fun [youtube.com] to deal with this?
(Score: 1) by Weasley on Wednesday May 03 2017, @04:15PM
Just another case of a geek trying to imitate the popular people and failing miserably.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 03 2017, @12:32PM (18 children)
From the context, I think this is meant as something bad, with the implicit assumption the problems are caused by the show. But I think it could rather be a good sign: Viewers who already have those issues get aware that it's not just them, and seek help.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Thexalon on Wednesday May 03 2017, @01:38PM (7 children)
There are many many people who live under the delusion that if you don't talk about something, it doesn't happen. For example, the people that like to pretend domestic abuse wasn't a problem until feminist groups started organizing shelters and services for victims about 40 years ago. Or the people who think that educating kids about sex is the same thing as encouraging them to have it. Or those that think eliminating the words "nigger", "wetback", "kike", and other slurs from the English language will eliminate racism.
Suicide is an extremely common cause of death among teenagers and young adults. We should be talking about it and creating artwork about it, so that we can deal with it.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by linkdude64 on Wednesday May 03 2017, @01:56PM (6 children)
http://dailycaller.com/2017/04/14/maine-democrats-laugh-about-rising-suicide-rates-among-white-males-video/ [dailycaller.com]
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Wednesday May 03 2017, @02:53PM (5 children)
I have no idea what your link has to do with my point. Care to explain?
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Wednesday May 03 2017, @03:27PM (4 children)
My guess, politicians think white male suicides is a good thing and don't care?
(not that they would care about anything that won't line their pockets or produce votes)
(Score: 2) by linkdude64 on Wednesday May 03 2017, @05:31PM
You win a cookie!
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 03 2017, @06:03PM (1 child)
From actually reading the article his point seems to be:
Even though I know the video has been edited into a lie, I still prefer the lie over the truth.
Alt-truth, making america great!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 03 2017, @06:57PM
Hail Trump! Hail our people! Hail victory!
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Wednesday May 03 2017, @10:54PM
Which, if it were true (which it isn't), still has nothing to do with my point about how there is nothing to be gained by censorship. My guess is that the person who posted that link saw my uncensored use of ethnic slurs as an simple indication that racist material should go on this thread, as if I was using those terms in support of racism (which I wasn't).
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by AthanasiusKircher on Wednesday May 03 2017, @03:03PM (7 children)
the implicit assumption the problems are caused by the show.
I don't think anyone's claiming that a healthy teen in good spirits will be driven to suicide by the show. The concern, if anything, is that documenting a suicide and a rationale for one in detail might cause some who are already depressed to empathize and perhaps go further down that path.
But I think it could rather be a good sign: Viewers who already have those issues get aware that it's not just them, and seek help.
You're probably right. That may happen for some. But the show apparently has some graphic depictions of elements related to the suicide (and things that drove it), not to mention the main character successfully does commit suicide (that's not really a spoiler, since it's apparently revealed early in the first episode). Your logic depends on the idea that witnessing another's suicide will somehow "wake a person up" and cause them to get help. In reality, witnessing another's suicide is often a trigger for others who are already depressed, since it can embolden others and justify the action (even if the rationale behind the triggering suicide seems objectively poor to "healthy" folks).
Wikipedia has a review [wikipedia.org] of what a number of mental health professionals have had to say. As one of the counselors says there, it's unlikely that one show is going to trigger suicide -- but without context, there's a concern about how this show could be perceived by someone who already views suicide as a possible option.
[To be clear, I'm NOT arguing the series shouldn't have been made or shouldn't be distributed freely or whatever. I also haven't watched it, but it sounds like some reasonable caution about viewing is in order.]
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Wednesday May 03 2017, @04:39PM (5 children)
However, the people contacting mental health services are almost certainly going to fall into the realm of those who have been emboldened into seeking help, or who are recognizing potential warning signs in their loved ones. As such, an increase in such contacts has essentially nothing to do with any real risks of increasing the odds of suicide, if anything it's evidence of the exact opposite.
Now, if they saw an uptick in actual suicide attempts rather than in people seeking help... then maybe there's a problem. As it is, at worst there's maybe cause to pay closer attention to any potential warning signs of more destructive trends that haven't yet been noticed.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Wednesday May 03 2017, @05:30PM (4 children)
Here also lies an assumption that mental health services actually will improve matters.. ;)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 03 2017, @06:05PM (2 children)
Here also lies an assumption that anybody who works to improve the world is a loser because you personally are too incompetent to contribute anything of value to the world.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Wednesday May 03 2017, @08:21PM
The path to hell is paved with good intentions comes to mind..
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday May 04 2017, @12:37AM
Here also lies an assumption that anybody who works to improve the world is a loser because you personally are too incompetent to contribute anything of value to the world.
Why would you think that? In addition to the already mentioned, well-known problem that good intentions frequently don't result in good outcomes, we also have the notorious incurable nature of many mental illnesses. For example, you can't put a splint on mental depression to keep it from getting worse nor can you neatly excise schizophrenia like you would a small cancerous tumor.
Having said that, I gather a fair bit of people considering suicide do so due to temporary suck in their lives, such as the recent loss of a loved one. Merely talking it over with someone could result in them reconsidering long enough to recover from their bout of depression.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Wednesday May 03 2017, @11:01PM
That's more than an assumption: There have been studies [jamanetwork.com] on that very question. It turns out ad campaigns aren't effective, at all, but getting mental health treatments to people that need them are.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 04 2017, @07:01AM
As someone who has attempted suicide, I see all news stores about someone committing suicide as "Good job, you've finally gotten away from your horrible life. It may not have been the best choice, but you made it and was able to see it through to the end. Anyone who has the willpower to deliberately kill themselves deserves some respect." The media portrays it as "stupid kid hurts everyone around him despite them never realizing he was horribly depressed. Such a waste, selfishly destroying his life. He should have put a huge smile on his face and pretended to live a wonderful, awesomely fun, and energetic life so everyone won't be bothered by his pain."
Graphic depictions of elements related to suicide? Please. You obviously never fantasied about buying a motorcycle and driving directly into a wall, or have passed out from self-inflicted dehydration, cut yourself just to feel any emotion other than hopelessness, wondered what getting smashed by a car would feel like, etc... Talking about suicide doesn't make people suicidal. Victim blaming the guy who died by saying he was a cowardly selfish low life is what drives those on the edge to kill themselves. The depressed person now applies those labels to himself because he's been thinking about doing exactly the same thing, so he must have the same unfixable character flaws. The world is a better place if I, a low life scum, is removed from it and as a bonus I won't be depressed anymore after I'm dead. A win-win!
There is a bit of the fear of the unknown and watching other people die can put some of that to rest. But at this point, just someone randomly bullying you that day might have been enough anyway. Everyone already knows you can die by hanging, cutting, poison, gun, death by cop, starvation, lack of O2, etc... Hearing details about it doesn't do anything for you. It's more "well if he could do it then I can be as strong as him and kill myself too." People look up to their betters. People escaping their depressed life are better than those who refuse to acknowledge such pain could exist or think pulling yourself up from your bootstraps is easy.
Well, I guess my last quote was an argument against the point I was trying to make. The other suicide doesn't justify your own, it gives you something to aspire to. No one else will give you any encouragement in trying to get better, it's shameful just to even bring it up. But hearing about a suicide doesn't cause that, it's everyone's horrid reaction to the victim (the person who died, not the ones he left behind. They aren't victims, they didn't care enough to risking feeling some awkwardness in trying to help the person.) which causes it.
Really, why are the only role models depressed people have are ones who died? I congratulate everyone who commits suicide. Despite their depression and society holding them back, they were able to succeed in escaping it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 03 2017, @03:23PM (1 child)
Yep, I was going to say the same thing. It's good that these social issues can be discussed more openly, and this will help people to express similar feelings that might have otherwise been repressed. On the whole, I think it will help shine more light on this issue.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday May 03 2017, @04:28PM
It's important to give suicidal people an avenue to get help. It's important to diagnose and treat suicidal tendencies and depression that are driven by neurological factors. Those are a couple very specific, rather end-stage interventions. Before things get to that point there is something else we can all do--stop pretending to be perfect, and stop assuming that others are.
The social dimension of suicide and depression is significant. If you think everybody else is doing just fine while you're having trouble with your job or relationships or you feel insecure about your social status, your sense of self-worth can quickly plummet. As it does, you feel worse, and become difficult to be around. People do start to avoid you, and your job/relationship problems compound and a negative feedback loop develops. When that happens, it can be almost impossible to get out again.
So it's important to ask for help, and it's important to be honest with at least someone about how you're really doing. And when you get through something difficult, share that too. It's much easier to avoid the negative feedback loop if you know that the people around you are broken on some level, too, and are trying to work through things. Knowing that does a lot to avoid the intense sadness and isolation that come with suicidal feelings.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 03 2017, @12:37PM (3 children)
Come on, Netflix! First 'Orange is the New Black' gets kidnapped, then you have an outage. I bet the outage happened because you got hacked again.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 03 2017, @12:43PM (2 children)
(Score: 2) by tibman on Wednesday May 03 2017, @01:43PM
1) I'm guessing kidnapping was a comical stand-in for ransom or extortion.
2) You sound a bit like a jerk. Go get your coffee and chill a bit.
SN won't survive on lurkers alone. Write comments.
(Score: 3, Touché) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday May 03 2017, @05:55PM
Copyright infringement is not theft, it's not piracy, and it's certainly not kidnapping.
Threatening to commit copyright infringement unless a ransom is paid is extortion, though.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 03 2017, @02:04PM (6 children)
the fittest will survive. It's hard to get all worked up about those that don't.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 03 2017, @02:28PM (1 child)
You are clearly not the fittest. I think you know what has to be done
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 03 2017, @06:01PM
OK, we have our tag line. Let's pencil in Anne Robinson as the host...
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Wednesday May 03 2017, @03:34PM (2 children)
Being fittest should not be about handling complete morons in school. But handling real challenges in adult life. Elon Musk was for example thrown down a staircase in school by bullies. If he died, we would not had SpaceX or Tesla. But we surely would have the "fittest" people around to survive bullies. That selection bias sucks. And it's better to thwart these youngster thugs in the bud.
The thing is that being fittest for thugs is not something that is fittest for the society at large. Eliminate the thugs and let people take on the real challenges instead. The thugs can be deported to some 3rd world country where they will feel at home.
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Wednesday May 03 2017, @04:50PM (1 child)
Surviving childhood has always been an important fitness test - one that most individuals of all species have traditionally failed.
Moreover, the most effective thugs have pretty much been in control of human society at least since the dawn of civilization, so being able to deal with them is in fact probably a valuable survival trait for our species.
It can be gratifying to speculate about what the world might be like without the thugs, but pretty much all of recorded history thus far has been a tale of how one band of thugs managed to wrest control from another band, either through treachery, open conflict, or manipulating the masses into doing their dirty work for them. Things seem to be improving overall, at least when looking at the long term, but slowly enough that it will probably be centuries if not millenia before we see a world that isn't run by thugs. And evolution cares nothing for the future - it only selects for traits that aid in survival *today*.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Wednesday May 03 2017, @06:20PM
That's a useful way to look at it, because if Musk had not survived the staircase it would be hyper-American of us to go on a crusade about that individual physical staircase being unsafe, staircase control, staircase regulation, staircase confiscation, staircase safety training, make kids wear helmets 24x7 not just while on bikes, the one individual bully who physically touched him last because surely the 318 million person culture only has one guy who's the only problem in the whole country, etc. The one thing we as Americans would never go after as a response would be as you mentioned, "thugs as a class of problem".
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 03 2017, @03:35PM
Darwin did a description of nature, not a prescription of human behaviour. Your basic fallacy here is: "It happens in nature, so it must be good."
(Score: 2) by aclarke on Wednesday May 03 2017, @02:11PM
I noticed this show come through my recommended list for the first time the other day. I clicked on it, read the description, and thought, "Oh no they didn't." Then I watched something else. But then again, I'm not a teenager.
As I haven't watched the show, I'm not really able to comment on it. One would hope that Netflix would be responsible with the subject matter, given its gravity and the potential to contribute to messing people up. On the other hand ... revenue. Plus not everyone's the same, and one person's fun show is another's trigger, to use a trigger word sure to trigger an episode on someone here.
(Score: 2) by Taibhsear on Wednesday May 03 2017, @02:54PM (2 children)
Oddly enough the only warnings I've seen about this show are from friends warning me it's a big ol' pile of shite and not to watch. I have heard from literally no one that liked it so far.
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday May 03 2017, @06:05PM (1 child)
I liked it.
It reminded me of a Film Noir detective story. You don't really know if the protagonist is the good-guy or not. He repeatedly gets the crap beaten out of him.
Somewhat like Brick [imdb.com] which was also a highschool/detective crossover.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 04 2017, @05:12AM
Brick was fucking awesome.
I think that was the first time I noticed the kid from 3rd rock from the sun was a really good actor.
(Score: 2) by goodie on Wednesday May 03 2017, @03:29PM
I think that when viewed in the appropriate conditions, this show may actually be a very good thing. For once, it might help people realize that other people might need help. For those who are in distress, they may realize that they need help. Of course, there are cases where a series like this could trigger an escalation but overall, I think that suicide, like other ways of dying is not a taboo subject. Since I haven't watched the show I cannot tell whether it is done in a way that can help or if it's just been made to create controversy and backlash. Would I let a 10 yo watch it? Of course not. Would I let a teenager watch it? Maybe, after watching it myself and making sure that the teenager in question wants to watch it and has a basic understanding of the subject matter.
One of the issues with Netflix is that there is this assumption that everything on it is good for the whole family (or kids). But not all content is suitable for all audiences. They should not need to put 10 freaking warnings about it, it's just like in the old tv days, except you can pause/stop anytime and pick something else (and search on the internet prior to watching something with your kids to make sure it's age and other factors appropriate). Yes, Netflix has a lot of things that target broad audiences, or at least at not likely to cause this type of backlash. But as the service grows and tries to get on par with other providers like HBO, it will have more "edgy" content. And in the future, you'll probably be able to pay extra for access to porn/horror etc. and other niche genres. But it's not the Disney channel, there are plenty of excellent but extremely messed up movies on it (love them Korean movies :D) .
(Score: 1) by Weasley on Wednesday May 03 2017, @04:23PM (3 children)
I tried to watch this show. I got through 4 or 5 episodes. Then it just became painfully apparent that this is a teenagers suicide fantasy. People who have been bullied or rejected often fantasize about getting revenge by killing themselves and imagining the bully or the person to "hurt" them is made to realize the folly of their ways afterward. That is exactly what this show was about. It seems like it was confirming to teens that that is what would happen, when in reality most people just move on with their lives without you. When you die, you are just forgotten. Bad people don't learn their lesson. A would-be lover that rejected you will not dwell on the fact if they had just loved you, then you'd be alive today. Everyone just moves on without you.
This show is stupid.
Or maybe it isn't...I didn't finish it. So maybe there's something more to it. But that's the impression I got.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday May 03 2017, @04:35PM (1 child)
That might be too cynical. Suicide can rip a hole in a family or community that never gets better, even if the suicide was not some important figure or particularly beloved. Suicide has many implications, but one of them that's germane to this context is it represents a failure on the part of the suicide's friends, family, and acquaintances. It hurts if you had no idea the suicide was having such thoughts, and you can't stop thinking that you would have done anything to help them if only you had known they needed help.
Yes, you move on with your life, because life moves on. But it's too cavalier to suppose that the people who knew the suicide ever stop feeling the pain of the loss.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Weasley on Wednesday May 03 2017, @04:43PM
Yes, I suppose I meant to say, people move on without...because like moves one without you. The people who are most hurt by your death are the people you don't want to hurt. The people you want to hurt are probably not hurt at all.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Wednesday May 03 2017, @05:38PM
The most efficient "revenge" is likely to just cut out the bad elements out of your life, whatever it takes and get on with your own life goals regardless of obstacles.
The bullies, stupid teacher, rejected love etc. They will in many cases not realize their folly and in many cases it's just a waste of time.