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from the also-because-ice-cold-beer-is-an-abomination dept.
Why isn't beer served with ice? Well, the main reason is, the beer will get watered down as the ice melts – it's a problem that also extends to drinks that are served on the rocks, even though the coldness of the ice may help them to go down smoother. That's where the Beyond Zero system comes in. Instead of making ice cubes out of water, it makes them out of booze.
Invented by Kentucky-based entrepreneur Jason Sherman, the system actually consists of two devices – the Liquor Ice Maker and the Liquor Ice Storage Unit.
A liquor of the user's choice is first poured into the Maker, where it's cooled well below the temperature reached by a regular freezer, and formed into cubes. Exactly how that's accomplished is a trade secret, although the process takes just a matter of minutes.
Whiskey slushie, anyone?
(Score: 2, Interesting) by anubi on Saturday May 27 2017, @11:32AM (12 children)
With all that secrecy of how he's refrigerating this... I would be concerned he's using liquid CO2. It will do exactly what he claims.
But it will use a lot of CO2.
Remember the "frosted glass mug" gadgets which went through pellet-gun CO2 cylinders like there's no tomorrow?
Well, larger cylinders for paint guns are out there now. I would not be surprised he's using the CO2 as a refrigerant. We are talking an awful lot of joules(thermal) that are transferred awful fast in a small box. And the source of what drives it has got to be out there somewhere. My guess is either the paint ball gun cylinders or soda-stream cylinders.
Those of you who bought a sodastream are probably by now quite aware of how expensive it is to make your own soda pop if you do it the way they say to do it and use their machine. What they don't say is you can do the same thing with a sodapop bottle, a tire valve, a commercial CO2 tank and regulator, for a helluva lot cheaper.
Anyway, that's my guess on how this thing works... and if it works the way I think it works ( just by looking at it ), you probably don't want to think about how much your consumables cost....
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2) by looorg on Saturday May 27 2017, @11:59AM (6 children)
It might not have to go into that kinda of extremes, even tho liquid co2 seems to be the obvious and fastest way to rapidly cool something.
There has to be something more then a normal freezer, Vodka as an example survives in a normal freezer. As far as I can remember you need something around -30C to freeze that but it obviously takes longer then a few minutes to do. I wonder how this device would handle something like Stroh Rum (80% alcohol).
I guess he could dilute the alcohol a bit first to make it easier (and faster) to freeze to - not like you are going to be able to taste or notice the difference. Even tho that would somewhat defeat the purpose if the device - might as well have water based ice cubes then.
It could be something about how the ice cubes are constructed, instead of making one large cube he makes many small cubes that is then put together into a larger cube. Making a smaller cube would be faster then freezing a large cube.
Also it can't be "to cold" either cause you wouldn't want to drink that, you could sustain serious damage if you drink something that cold.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroh [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 1) by anubi on Saturday May 27 2017, @12:31PM (1 child)
Yeh, I am still thinking either liquid CO2 or liquid nitrogen. Both of which possess the thermodynamic capacity to do the job. However, liquid CO2 is generally more available.
Like you say, if you get this thing too cold, one may find things like frozen dental work pronto should you chew into one.
Neither would it surprise me to find the thermal shock of pulling supercooled "antifreeze" into one's mouth may do wonders to one's dentition.
Especially if crowns are involved. You know... thermal shock. The same thing that fractures glassware on rapid temperature changes.
Thanks for the -30 deg C point for vodka. I would now have to consider the latent heats of fusion for vodka as well as CO2 or Nitrogen to get an idea of how much refrigerant is required for each round of drinks.
( What really makes me think he's doing it this way is he is so careful to keep the refrigerant technology under wraps as a "trade secret". My guess is it would kill off sales if the prospective customers knew they had to have pretty substantial sources of CO2 or Liquid Nitrogen to run this thing, so "trade secret" is a good business method to make the sale before the customer realizes what he's getting into. But a big venue catering to the super-rich would probably go for it. The machine would be cheap enough to build in low quantities for the stated price, as - like a car - my guess most of the money goes into promotion and appearance. But the consumables would be another story. )
It did not appear to me that heat pump technology was in use, as there does not appear to be sufficient volume in the device in the photo to house the necessary compressors and heat exchangers. And the price looks too low for small runs of something like that.
Again, I am speculating on how this would work, just as I speculated on Rossi's E-CAT, being the fact of how it works is being withheld from me.
Being this is a discussion site, and I have no dog in this, I'll toss my speculation into the fray and see what others think about it.
Figuring out how stuff works, or making unusual things is my idea of fun. ;)
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2) by looorg on Saturday May 27 2017, @01:08PM
For all we know tho there is a giant tank of something standing in the closet under the machine. We are just seeing the business end of it sort of like a beertap or soda machine at any restaurant. We are not seeing the big tanks of ingredients. So there might as well be an industrial sized canister of something hidden away or a compressor, even tho I would think Richy Richy doesn't want to hear the sound of a compressor everytime he is chilling his drinks with boozecubes (or whatever we should call them) -- that said looking at the picture it doesn't even look like the machine is actually making ice cubes but instead some sort of ice ellipse blobs.
One wonders if there is some kind of gauge or button depending on what you put in, after all Vodka - Beer and Wine have very different freezing points. You could freeze Beer and Wine at home with much issue so the freezing point there is just a few degrees below zero (C) (depending on how solid said freezing is). To make it easy you could just freeze everything to Vodka levels but that might be excessive, take more time then needed etc.
(Score: 2) by TheRaven on Saturday May 27 2017, @12:53PM (1 child)
A few years ago, there was a report about a lot of people getting frostbite in their throats as a result of storing vodka in the freezer. The temperature would get to about -5ºC and then they'd do shots, instantly freezing their throat. I wonder if these ice cubes have the same potential...
sudo mod me up
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday May 27 2017, @01:41PM
Just a note, from my perspective. My choice of beverages is Scotch whisky. I'll take it straight, or on the rocks, sometimes Scotch and water if it's good water. (Yeah, I know, the rocks can't be any better than the water, but they're cold, so you don't notice if the water sucks.) I sip my drink, I don't do shots, don't gulp it. I have stored bottles in the freezer, and 0 degrees F is indeed pretty damned cold. Even if I were a chugger, I wouldn't try to throw a shot of 0 degree liquid down my throat. I'm imagining frost bitten belly button here, FFS! UGGHHH!
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Saturday May 27 2017, @06:06PM (1 child)
Liquor can be as low as 24 proof (12%), or as high as 190+. The summary isn't specific as to what the freezer can handle.
This seems like more of a "fancy" thing for people who enjoy $7+ cocktails, not people who are concerned about keeping the cost of their beer below $1 per bottle. It also seems like yet another mostly useless contraption to keep in your oversized american home to amuse yourself and possibly a few friends for a few hours, then send off to the landfill when you can't sell it at a garage sale.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 1) by purple_cobra on Saturday May 27 2017, @08:33PM
Ugh, you've just reminded me that many years ago, when I was younger and *cough* more adventurous (i.e. stupid) I decided to "taste" some 90% ABV (180% proof?) absinthe. The word 'taste' is in inverted commas because you know what happens to your scrotum when it gets really cold? That's what happens to your taste buds when something like that absinthe hits them. Weird feeling, then an unpleasant stinging sensation, followed by a minute or so of a tongue that felt anaesthetised. I took the decision that it was better suited to those of a more artistic temperament.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Saturday May 27 2017, @03:57PM (2 children)
The needed temperature is reachable using a regular closed loop with a compressor. The real trick is probably freezing the liquor without freeze distilling it. That and keeping your guests from hurting themselves with 'ice cubes' that melt at -30C.
(Score: 1) by anubi on Sunday May 28 2017, @06:58AM (1 child)
The new CO2 (R744) based refrigeration systems would definitely have no problem freezing vodka.
R744 has some very good thermodynamic characteristics for sub-zero cooling.
Although its a little hard to work with because the high-side pressures are quite high. Design pressures typically 90 BAR. [danfoss.us]
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 1) by anubi on Sunday May 28 2017, @07:08AM
Ignore above... Butthurt below made an observation which made my post above moot.
I had neglected the triple point of CO2. Old age, forgetfullness, and posting without researching, I suppose.
Sure seems I recall the triple point of CO2 being much lower... but sometimes one's memory plays tricks.
"Its not what you don't know that gets one into trouble, rather it's what one knows for sure that just ain't so." is how Mark Twain put it.
I stand guilty as charged.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 3, Informative) by butthurt on Sunday May 28 2017, @04:07AM (1 child)
> I would not be surprised he's using the CO2 as a refrigerant.
The triple point of carbon dioxide is around -70 Celsius (at lower temperatures, it only exists as a solid); for R-134a the triple point is -153.4 Celsius, and for R-404A it's at -148 Celsius. When the goal is to obtain lower temperatures than a normal freezer, carbon dioxide might not be a good choice (see figure 1 and table 1 in the page linked below).
http://www.achrnews.com/articles/94092-co2-as-refrigerant-the-transcritical-cycle [achrnews.com]
(Score: 1) by anubi on Sunday May 28 2017, @07:01AM
Thanks... I did not recall the critical point for CO2 was that high... ummm, maybe CO2 not so good.
Just begging for my thermal expansion valve to plug up with dry ice, no?
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by coolgopher on Saturday May 27 2017, @11:36AM (2 children)
This sounds like it'd be a lot more expensive than regular whiskey stones/steel [coolmaterial.com]. I think I'll stay low-tech this time.
(Score: 1) by anubi on Saturday May 27 2017, @11:59AM (1 child)
What amazes me a lot is how effective these things seem to be without undergoing a phase change.... unless they cooled 'em with liquid nitrogen.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 1) by arcz on Saturday May 27 2017, @09:44PM
The steel ones have gel inside that freezes.
(Score: 5, Informative) by TheRaven on Saturday May 27 2017, @11:38AM (4 children)
First, this is a solved problem and one that was solved with a cheap mechanism: reusable plastic ice cubes, which contain something that can be frozen and contain it so that it doesn't leak into the drink. I remember these from when I was a child and I've also seen them in cocktail bars. They cost a tiny amount, so anyone who actually cares about this doesn't have the problem.
Second, the problem with freezing the booze is that it separates and different components will melt at different times, so you will eventually (if you stir it enough) end up with something approximating the original, but in the interim you'll get a different composition as different components melt out of your booze cubes at different rates.
sudo mod me up
(Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Saturday May 27 2017, @01:26PM (1 child)
While I suppose that's a "problem," you still have the exact same problem with a standard mixed drink "on the rocks," with water constantly melting into the mix and changing the composition over time. Since the folks using this method seem to view dilution by water as the biggest enemy, I assume they would still view this "problem" as an improvement.
As for ice, that's actually sort of a feature of mixed drinks "on the rocks" that alters the experience -- perhaps in an enjoyable way, depending on your perspective. If I wanted a drink that stayed constant and strong in composition, I'd order a strained drink or something "neat." Part of the point of "on the rocks" drinking is often the dilution factor, which balances the flavor (if you want something less "strong"). It also causes a "long drink" (a large volume one, generally drunk slowly) to gradually weaken over time, which can be refreshing. For example, a gin and tonic on a hot day: too much alcohol too fast can leave you feeling dehydrated, but you get more water as the drink goes on. It's also somewhat fun then to refresh your drink and get that "hit" of strong flavor again.
Maybe I put too much of a positive spin on something that others consider a "problem." I just view drinking strong alcohol over ice to be a fundamentally different experience from other types of drinks, particularly for long drinks that are obviously intended to dilute over time. (And yes, there is also a place for whiskey stones or the plastic "ice cubes" you mention for those who just want a cold drink, rather than the diluting effect of ice.)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 27 2017, @05:58PM
I don't drink alcohol in general (I do drink a little wine with food maybe five times a year).
Knowing this, can you please explain why it would be bad to simply put spirits in the fridge the day before drinking them? I understand you enjoy ice cubes that melt, but you say there's a place for the plastic cubes as well.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 28 2017, @05:24AM (1 child)
They called the Wright brothers silly. They called space whisky silly. If no one tried silly ideas, we'd never progress.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 28 2017, @08:17AM
No, its not a silly idea. Look how rich the inventor of "slushie" drinks became.
This guy is not marketing to kids with a dime in their pocket. He is marketing to rich people that have lots of disposable ( as in throwaway ) income.
They may cut costs with employees, but when it comes to personal luxuries, these guys will *spend*!
(Score: 3, Touché) by Ellis D. Tripp on Saturday May 27 2017, @02:03PM (6 children)
"Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!"--Edward Abbey
(Score: 4, Insightful) by rleigh on Saturday May 27 2017, @02:37PM (5 children)
Exactly this. When beer is "warm" at cellar temperature, or greater, you can experience all the flavour. When it's chilled, you don't. Good beer tastes good when it's warm. Crap beer tastes awful, and it's chilled intentionally to hide that! Not to say that a nice cold beer doesn't have its place, but it shouldn't be necessary to chill it to mask how crap it is. The idea of making beer ice cubes seems quite wrong; there's something quite wrong if there's a need to do this to the drink in the first place!
(I used to be a beer taster when I worked as a chemist in a big brewery. Occasionally even the mass market swill can taste amazing when a batch somehow beats the odds and places on the extreme of the bell curve, but it's a rarity.)
(Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Saturday May 27 2017, @02:46PM (4 children)
While I mostly agree (and I hate to disagree with an expert taster), I think it also depends on the style of beer. "Good beer" may still taste good when warm, but not all beer styles are best at higher temperatures. I've had a lot of "lighter" style beers in Germany, served on a hot day (or even a cooler one), and they're not served at cellar temperature or even warmer -- and they are better for it. Most good ales, and darker styles like porters, stouts, etc. should still be good (if not better) warm, but generally give me a night light Weissbier chilled. (Not ice cold; I agree that also kills the flavor.)
(Score: 2) by rleigh on Saturday May 27 2017, @07:46PM
I was no master taster, just a tech with the basic taste training! Lighter brews are certainly often designed to be served colder and I have no problem at all with good quality stuff.
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Sunday May 28 2017, @02:40AM (2 children)
God I love porters... And extra pale ales that are hop a plenty. The extremes of both give the flavours: probably also why I love horseradish, heavy pepper use, sriracha sauce... My taste buds suck, and so need the extremes.
But porters! Mmmmm!!
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by Ellis D. Tripp on Monday May 29 2017, @04:32PM (1 child)
"Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!"--Edward Abbey
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Monday May 29 2017, @07:14PM
Haven't tried them (unfortunately i suck, and am now forced to be gluten free), but i know in my old days it wouldn't have stopped at one or two, lol.
Gluten free porters are hard to come by... :(
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Saturday May 27 2017, @05:29PM (1 child)
What about small cubes of stainless steel? They don't freeze or melt, but they do have heat capacity. Not as much as the heat of fusion of water, but they can still cool a drink. Just don't swallow them
(Score: 2) by Rivenaleem on Monday May 29 2017, @02:23PM
Or you can just use grapes.
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Sunday May 28 2017, @01:36AM (1 child)
they will be upset that they don't already know how to make one. This because I invented it, but have ordered it only a few times.
Put some ice in a blender then crush it. Pour it into a large glass. Pour Midori - Japanese melon liquer - over it.
I've always wanted to try selling these at a carnival.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Sunday May 28 2017, @02:48AM
I made sake once from scratch: an entire carboy of it.
The first two bottles were great, but after that: must have not sterilised well enough. Haven't tried melon liqueur, though.
Warm sake didn't thrill me, but was nice as a chilled white wine.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---