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NPR visits a prison goat farm that was the subject of an activist's ire back in 2015:
Whole Foods loved [Jim Schott's] cheese. His company [Haystack Mountain] grew. It also changed. Ten years ago, Haystack Mountain started buying milk from a farm in a prison. Schott doesn't recall telling Whole Foods or his other customers about that change in the Haystack Mountain story. In any case, Schott felt that it was a good thing — "a model of good prison management."
Then, in 2015, a prison reform activist named Michael Allen sent a letter to John Mackey, the CEO of Whole Foods. Allen demanded that Whole Foods stop selling Haystack Mountain's cheese because it was made, in part, using the labor of prisoners earning pennies per hour. The way Allen sees it, Haystack was "taking advantage of helpless, powerless individuals. They're fair game for corporations to make money off of. And I just told [Mackey] that we wanted him to get out of that business."
Many things besides cheese are made in prisons. Across the country, tens of thousands of inmates work for businesses that have set up operations inside prison walls. They make flags and furniture. Most of the time, they attract little attention. People may feel differently about something they eat, though, especially a boutique food like goat cheese. To Allen's amazement and delight, Whole Food caved to his demands. In a statement, the company said that some of its customers weren't comfortable with products made by prisoners, so it would no longer sell them.
The inmates are still milking those goats, though. I was curious about this farm, and set up a visit.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Friday July 21 2017, @01:50PM (28 children)
IF AND ONLY IF the prisoner has a choice, AND, he is payed the prevailing wage.
Actually, I think all prisoners should be given the opportunity to work. How the hell they gonna pay restitution to their victims, if they can't work? But, those prisoners SHOULD NOT be exploited on a scale that rivals slave labor. Pay them a fair wage, then work them as long as they want to work.
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Friday July 21 2017, @01:56PM
Hear! Hear!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 21 2017, @02:03PM (6 children)
They say China has inhumane conditions, and that is why American products can't compete. Apparently this is our answer.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by DannyB on Friday July 21 2017, @02:40PM (5 children)
At least Foxconn puts up nets around the building to prevent employees from committing suicide. I doubt our prisons will provide such a benefit to improve life expectancy.
When trying to solve a problem don't ask who suffers from the problem, ask who profits from the problem.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 21 2017, @03:16PM
"According to [an] Al Jazeera special report on slavery, China has the largest penal labour system in the world today. Often these prisoners are used to produce products for export to the West." [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by Type44Q on Friday July 21 2017, @03:44PM (3 children)
Dumbass: It's not to improve worker safety; it's to improve worker retention.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday July 21 2017, @05:27PM (2 children)
Improving worker safety and life expectancy also improves worker retention. Which improves revenue. Which improves profits. Which improves executive bonuses. And shareholder value. Everyone happy. What's not to like?
Oh, except for the 'employees' who have the safety nets.
When trying to solve a problem don't ask who suffers from the problem, ask who profits from the problem.
(Score: 2) by Joe Desertrat on Friday July 21 2017, @10:56PM (1 child)
When labor is the cheapest, most plentiful and expendable part of the equation, abuse towards workers will always occur.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday July 24 2017, @03:28PM
Yep.
When trying to solve a problem don't ask who suffers from the problem, ask who profits from the problem.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by looorg on Friday July 21 2017, @02:18PM (11 children)
They do seem to have a choice and the wage they get paid is better then most other prison jobs, or so I gather from the article.
Working on the goat farm is in that regard a privilege and a perk. You get to go outside. You are about to be released from prison so this is really all about them once again learning to live in polite society. It's not homicidal axe wielding serial killers out there milking goats. The $5 a day they make is not high enough to be restitution money, they might be saved until release or they are basically commissary cash at best. But it could be an interesting idea to pay them real wages and then send most of it to their victims. I'm just not sure there would actually be any prison jobs in the western world then as third world labor would be a much cheaper alternative. These schemes are never about making money, it's about letting prisoners do something. Doing anything is in some regard better then doing nothing, prisoners doing nothing is a giant security problem and risk.
I have no issue with prison labor or farms. They serve a purpose. It must be better having prisoners do this then just spending all their time playing cards, watching TV and working out in the yard. Idle hands and all that ... At least this way they do something productive. That said one can wonder how useful it is a skill to learn these days, probably not a lot of demand for goat farmers out in the normal job market. But getting farm jobs might be a viable alternative for a lot of x-cons.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by LoRdTAW on Friday July 21 2017, @04:03PM (6 children)
Or their families in the case of non violent victimless crimes such as drug possession or prostitution. Many of these people have children and allowing them to work from within the prison and funnel money to them is certainly a boon to society. This can help break the cycle of poverty and crime.
(Score: 2) by looorg on Friday July 21 2017, @04:37PM
There probably are a few of them that should pay child-support if nothing else. But I wonder if the family on the outside get some form of government assistance, as an example, if not all "income" is deducted from that and they would then not really gain any sort of improvement from it at all. So it might be better in that regard if the wage is split between commissary, restitution and a savings account for when they are released.
(Score: 3, Informative) by DeathMonkey on Friday July 21 2017, @07:20PM
This can help break the cycle of poverty and crime.
Well there's the problem!
(Score: 3, Interesting) by VLM on Friday July 21 2017, @07:40PM (1 child)
There are a combination of problems brought about because prison is free food and free rent and free medical care. Maybe not terribly good, but about as good or better than legal poor people get. There is a side issue, that it depends on the state vs federal prison.
So given the above, a poor person (I was a starving student once...) works all day and after all the bills are paid they can maybe go to the convenience store and get a bottle of juice or some junk food or similar low level extra luxury. So that is whats being simulated when a prisoner works all day for ten cents an hour and spends his "wealth" on a apple pie slice at the commissary that night. I mean, you can't pay them union carpenter wage without totally screwing up the internal economic system of the prison. I donno maybe prisoners with a useful skill like carpentry maybe should be the financial kings of the prison... Or they could do some funky BS with paying then $7.25/hr and taking back $7.15/hr for room and board and food and med coverage but why not just pay them ten cents?
Besides if you pay them over ten cents per hour the IRS is going to get involved into all kinds of funkiness and it boils down to a transfer of wealth from the state prison budget to the federal IRS and state DoR, which seems pointless somehow.
Plus now you're providing them with a good year of social security earning so they get a better retirement which isn't exactly punishment.
Paying them a full wage is a waste of accountants time, basically. Give them enough to buy a six pack of diet pepsi at the end of the day and that's about right for lower class laborers.
I believe this discussion has come up before, in my state the prison carpentry shop can only sell to the government so my SiL's kindergarten classroom has some cool kiddie furniture made by prisoners complete with little brass tags with something like "Made by prison industries illegal to sell outside the government". Like ladybug painted stepstools for the kids to sit on, and bookcases that look like rocket ships and her fancy teacher's desk and similar. Its kinda cool that they pay their debt to society by making school classrooms microscopically cooler. Kinda not cool that they compete private industry out so I can't make and sell ladybug step stools to the K12 system for $500 each because I got a relative "in the system" to sign for it, but whatever.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 21 2017, @09:18PM
It's not always free. Many jurisdictions allow jails and prisons to bill prisoners for their stay.
(Score: 2) by driven on Friday July 21 2017, @09:51PM
Why would a company pay them fair wages when they could either: a) pay a non-convict to do the work, b) outsource the work to China.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Saturday July 22 2017, @12:31AM
Great idea for the unemployed: commit a victimless crime, get to have a roof above your head and enough to eat for free and some pocket money to send to your family. Beats no income and no employment hands down.
I wonder though where such a society will head to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Friday July 21 2017, @06:05PM (3 children)
> These schemes are never about making money, it's about letting prisoners do something.
Until someone on the outside figures out that they can get that labor for a lot less than normal, yet sell the product at normal prices.
Non-prisoner goat farmers now face unbeatable competition, and get driven out of business.
The guy working with the prison rakes in the cash (private prison gets kickback), and everybody else gets poorer, all that allowed by your taxes subsidizing slavish labor.
Easy solution: prisoners get prevailing wage for the job being done.
(Score: 1, Troll) by VLM on Friday July 21 2017, @07:59PM (2 children)
Yeah about that... you remember the least motivated kids in the back of the classroom and how "productive" and "high quality" their output was in school? Well, now that they're in prison, they're not magically producing Japanese or BMW quality product. Its like Chinese quality at best.
Lets say they slack, the guard doesn't care as long as his life is easier. The prisoner is like "yeah and what're ya gonna do to me, send me to prison, LOL". I'm just saying, I've seen a lot of prison industry furniture. Its not hopelessly bad, but the Amish are not going to be put out of business anytime soon. If a private business can't compete against "just barely good enough not to be sent to a solitary cell" then it deserves to go out of business. Especially when the situation is public; I'm not dumb enough to go into the private air traffic control business or private ICBM launch field business because I know thats already not a free market. Yeah if you know you're competing against Uncle Sam maybe instead of pouting, doing something else like moving up the value chain to sell fro-yo retail, or transitioning to something less competitive (at least WRT the gov) like organic produce might be wise.
Personally I'd test the hell out of the goat-yogurt or whatever the cons are producing. Not because I'm a jerk, but because food poisoning isn't funny and I know the caliber of the people producing it is worse than shit from China made with extra melamine. Teaching them a work ethic and some skills and generating some sweat, is all very good and completely un-impaired by failed food safety results leading to the processing plant being dumped directly into the sewer. Its a waste of resources but its less of a resource waste to dump the product than to get food poisoning. You'll note that my state has the cons producing furniture for kindergartners who are not exactly legendary for their excellent taste in home decor or quality carpentry. We're not exactly having them build nuclear weapon physics packages or jetliner wings, if you get my drift, and thats a good thing. Maybe "hipster milk with 2% extra smug" or whatever they're making exactly is on the same level as ladybug stepstools in the grand scheme of things.
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @01:25AM
It's kind of hard to be motivated when the schools focus almost entirely on rote memorization rather than real education. So, yes, I do remember such kids, but I also remember plenty of A students who thought they were actually accomplishing something impressive by getting good grades. Anyone can become a rote memorization monkey if they actually try, but it's just not very meaningful. I'm not sure why so many people in society will say that our school system is broken while simultaneously being impressed with high grades; that is a pure contradiction.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @10:41AM
Always fucking guesswork bullshit from you. You have no clue, shut up.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 21 2017, @03:12PM (2 children)
Keep in mind that while in prison, they have basically no expenses other than relevant attorney fees and luxury items from the commissary. $5 a day if you don't have anything to spend it on is actually quite a bit of money. That's probably $125 a month. It's also an opportunity like others have said to just get outside of the rather cramped quarters for most of the day.
The only issue I have with this is that the companies aren't paying a prevailing wage to the prison. The prisoners not making the prevailing wage is completely fine by me, they get other perks. But, allowing prison labor to undercut the cost of doing business with non-convicts is a huge problem.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Friday July 21 2017, @05:36PM (1 child)
I think you either live where things are a lot cheaper than around here, or you have a very archaic idea of prices. $5.00/day is about the price of one sandwich, without coffee. From a vending machine.
Also, prison food is notoriously bad. Occasionally it's actually *caused* hunger strikes, because the prisoners would rather starve than eat the garbage served as food.
Also, saying they have the right to refuse the job is not actually a fair statement. It's about the same as saying you have the right not to visit the hospital emergency room. Technically it's usually true, but the consequences are unpleasant.
Prison labor is only just if it's reasonably preparing the prisoner for a job outside which is actually likely to be available and which would pay a living wage. Please note that I didn't say anything about wages while in prison. That's a separate argument and requirement which I don't have a decided opinion on. (Well, not strictly true. Some things are clearly unjust, but that's too long a list to contemplate without an organizing principle.)
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 21 2017, @08:41PM
You're not going to get a meal delivered in prison. But there are things that you are allowed to have inn prison that do make a difference.
These are criminals and the real benefit to this is the time outside with fresh air.
(Score: 2) by Lagg on Friday July 21 2017, @03:19PM
They deserve the chance to opt for snacks with actual flavor every day from the commissary's overpriced nonsense at the very least.
There are people that pay $400 a year to be on communes like this [npr.org] with shelter and food provided.
But yeah, this article has like 3 different people taking credit while the guys doing the actual back breaking continue on. Activist thinks he's top notch. Corporation gets to claim moral superiority. Big Cheese(TM) gets to advertise. Inside's like the outside rite.
Annoyingly, reality is ensuing in that I dislike the activist but agree with him and hope he sticks to the promise of fighting for non-shit wages. He also acknowledged the importance of lifestyle for the prisoners. So yeah. Can't say he's bad.
http://lagg.me [lagg.me] 🗿
(Score: 5, Informative) by hemocyanin on Friday July 21 2017, @03:32PM (1 child)
It doesn't rival slave labor, it IS slave labor:
13th Amendment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Text [wikipedia.org]
It is sad that in the modern world, the US has a written constitution authorizing slavery, and it is also telling about our government that it creates the largest prison population in the world (absolute, not per capita numbers). http://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison-population-total?field_region_taxonomy_tid=All [prisonstudies.org]
(Score: 5, Informative) by Thexalon on Friday July 21 2017, @04:52PM
And I should add that it's not a coincidence that if you are descended from slaves, and if you live in an area that historically had slavery, you're far more likely to end up in this new modern version of slavery. Whether or not you actually do anything wrong, as we just discussed [soylentnews.org].
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by TheGratefulNet on Friday July 21 2017, @03:35PM
we often disagree but here, I'm with you.
what lesson are we teaching them? that evil corps are still evil and that they will do ANYTHING they can to make a buck, at anyone's expense but their own?
that its 'ok' to pay slave wages?
guys, think about what communication this achieves. it teaches that slavery is good. and don't think that prison labor is NOT a form of slavery. you can't say no, you can't negotiate terms at all, you have no power at all and you can be abused or even killed if you look at your bosses the wrong way.
all wrong - all exactly the opposite of what a modern free country is all about.
make no mistake, this is just another indication that big business runs this country and is ruthless beyond belief.
I have never been in prison, but I would imagine that if I was there and treated this way, if/when I got out, I'd have a HUGE chip on my shoulder and I'm spend the rest of my life getting back at whoever treated me like a slave.
we really don't need this kind of 'lesson'. this is not helping anything but the mega rich corps. and,well, fuck them! they all need to be cut down in size, at this point. they have way too much power and control over things.
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
(Score: 1) by Goghit on Saturday July 22 2017, @06:27PM
Funny thing, there used to be prison farm programs in Canada once upon a time that were shut down as part of the usual neoliberal agenda over the last few decades. Some of the most vocal defenders of these programs were groups of ex-prisoners and the John Howard Society.
Despite the efforts of the late un-lamented Harper government Canada still has a penal system that, like some European countries, tries to focus on rehabilitation instead of punishment. Most of the system is still government operated and funded. A contract with a for-profit American firm to run a jail in Ontario was cancelled when the data showed that recidivism was worse for the same taxpayer cost.
The problem isn't prisoners performing cheap labour, it's allowing the 1% to profit from it.
(Score: 3, Informative) by bziman on Friday July 21 2017, @01:52PM (4 children)
But Haystack makes fantastic cheese... and they're based not too far from me, so I can "buy local". And their website talks about the prison dairy they use, which is also pretty close by. So I don't know if it's right or wrong, but it sure tastes good.
(Score: 1, Funny) by YeaWhatevs on Friday July 21 2017, @02:08PM (1 child)
It's the uric acid they use to enhance the curdling process you're tasting.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 21 2017, @02:29PM
Are you making some kind of "me in jail, me play joke, me go pee pee in your cheese" joke?
If you are, it doesn't rhyme at all and you should try harder.
(Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 21 2017, @03:02PM
That "good taste" comes from me peeing in the goat milk that MAKES the cheese...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 21 2017, @04:11PM
But the thing is: If you ever find needle in haystack ...
(Score: 5, Insightful) by crafoo on Friday July 21 2017, @01:57PM (25 children)
Using prisoners for corporate labor sets up a perverse incentive for more prisoners. Either new prisoners or retaining existing prisoners. They are also a captive labor force. The incentive will be there to coerce them to work even if it is optional. There is precedent to pay them below market wages. Everything about this is evil.
(Score: 2) by nobu_the_bard on Friday July 21 2017, @02:18PM (13 children)
While it's a serious concern, I'd rather they revamp the system so that the prisoners benefit more heavily than the prison does: say, by paying them fair wages and only having an amount that covers their "room and board" go to the prison, with the rest going to account they may retrieve when they exit (or perhaps other arrangements, like having some go to child support or whatever, as needed).
The prison is still incentivized to want them to work, but only to help cover partially prisoner costs, not because they can turn a serious profit doing it. The major burden of the cost should always be on the state.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 21 2017, @02:52PM (6 children)
You think a methhead stamping licence plates is a net gain to the prison? are you... 14 years old or just a 14 IQ?
(Score: 4, Informative) by DeathMonkey on Friday July 21 2017, @07:28PM (5 children)
You think a methhead stamping licence plates is a net gain to the prison?
I don't know, do you consider milllions upon millions of dollars in profit a net gain? [economist.com]
At the federal level, the Bureau of Prisons operates a programme known as Federal Prison Industries that pays inmates roughly $0.90 an hour to produce everything from mattresses, spectacles,road signs and body armour for other government agencies, earning $500m in sales in fiscal 2016. Prisoners have produced official seals for the Department of Defence and Department of State, a bureau spokesman confirmed. In many prisons, the hourly wage is less than the cost of a chocolate bar at the commissary, yet the waiting list remains long—the programme still pays much more than the $0.12-0.40 earned for an hour of kitchen work.
Similar schemes exist at the state level as well, making the market of 61,000 captive labourers worth well over $1bn. California’s programme expects to generate $232m in sales this year, much of it from construction and textiles, though $10m is also expected from meat-cutting. In Idaho, prisoners roast potatoes. In Kentucky, they sell $1m worth of cattle.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Friday July 21 2017, @08:09PM (3 children)
For us IT professionals, I don't roll out of bed for less than $100/hr, but for a huge fraction of the population, having $1/hr leftover after rent, food, medical, utilities, transportation, is level of wealth few in that social class will ever experience outside of prison. For me it seems pretty unjust given that $100/hr is my absolute floor but I was a starving student once who had much less than $40 in my wallet after every weekly paycheck so I kinda know how it is...
Also when I was in the military, especially as the military equivalent of a noob, I never got as low as $1/hr but lets just say E-1 rank doesn't work 40 hrs and then have the rest of their time off, so a "fair accounting" at 160-something hours not-off-duty per week would be pretty depressing per hour. I actually got decent pay per month, its just I worked like three or four months of civilian labor per calendar month. So its not unheard of for government pay to be pretty crap.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Saturday July 22 2017, @12:39AM (1 child)
What you call "government pay pretty crap" others call "fiscal responsibility" ... of course they disregard the handouts to big business.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by VLM on Sunday July 23 2017, @02:27PM
Historically one of the tradeoffs was low pay for relatively low odds of big brother going out of business, and lots more bureaucracy and slower pace.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @08:12AM
Wow, VLM, how much do they pay you to STAY in bed, you whore? There ought to be camps to concentrate people like you.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by fakefuck39 on Saturday July 22 2017, @01:20AM
Someone doesn't know the difference between profit and revenue. So 14 IQ it is I guess. It costs 6 figures to keep a prisoner in prison. That prisoner does not generate 6 figures in profit. The prisoners get paid almost nothing because their room and board eats up all they earn - which is still not enough to cover the amount spent on them, so a portion of Your taxes are paying for the living expenses of that guy who killed your kids. You are one stupid motherfucker.
(Score: 1) by crafoo on Friday July 21 2017, @03:30PM (3 children)
No, I don't think this is a good idea either. Just the availability of a captive labor pool distorts the marketplace. They should not be engaged in any work that is in any way tied to the availability of government funds, corporate profits, or available labor in the marketplace.
Also, consider the fact that once we have imprisoned someone they have failed society, but society has also failed. A society that produces criminals in large numbers has something systemic wrong with it. Society needs to be punished and to enter into rehabilitation as much as the criminal does. Our failure to recognize this is shameful.
(Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Friday July 21 2017, @03:35PM (2 children)
It isn't necessarily the society that has failed, it is more likely an abusive government. What kind of real harm to society does someone possessing some pot pose, say compared to Wall St. banksters?
(Score: 1) by crafoo on Friday July 21 2017, @07:19PM (1 child)
What an interesting distinction. How much responsibility do you think society should assume for the election of corrupt government officials, turning a blind eye to legislators writing poor or abusive laws, and judges who twist good laws in evils ways?
(Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Saturday July 22 2017, @04:22AM
If you participate in primaries in any fashion, you realize that the will of the people carries zero weight, and then in the General, we are offered a set of hand picked orcs to choose from.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Grishnakh on Friday July 21 2017, @04:12PM
I disagree about them paying for their room and board or other costs. Society should be footing the bill for that entirely, and prisoners should be entitled to all the money they earn (at a fair, market rate) while working there. Society has failed by having to put them there in the first place, and most of them don't belong there anyway; why should the prisoners pay for this? There should be a big disincentive to society to put people there, because it'll come out of your own paycheck in the form of taxes; that's the only way to get people to stop voting for this "law and order" nonsense and instead vote for some more progressive policies.
I'll make an exception for politicians and police though: they should be forced to pay for their own incarceration if possible, because they're the ones who control society and victimize everyone else in it with their power and their bad policies.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Osamabobama on Friday July 21 2017, @04:47PM
If they got paid better, but had to pay their room and board, I would expect room and board to get expensive really fast. Throwing money into a monopoly-controlled market just makes prices rise.
Appended to the end of comments you post. Max: 120 chars.
(Score: 0) by fakefuck39 on Friday July 21 2017, @02:19PM (7 children)
yeah, having taxpayers spend over 100k per prisoner as they sit there, eat, look at the wall, and work out is a much better way to go. sorry bud - I don't give a fuck about the "incentive" crap. learn about the separation of powers (I recommend finishing 5th grade for that) - specifically the executive an the judicial. and if there's a problem where the judicial gets money from corporations administered by ties to the executive, well that problem needs to be fixed.
In the meanwhile, my opinion is this: we put you in a prison, you work for free, every day, or you don't get to eat and you die. good thing this is a step in that direction.
(Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Friday July 21 2017, @03:37PM (6 children)
How do you explain China with 4x our population, have a half million FEWER prisoners than we do. You can go on blaming the prisoners, but maybe the problem is our government and those who support it. http://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison-population-total?field_region_taxonomy_tid=All [prisonstudies.org]
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Friday July 21 2017, @04:39PM (3 children)
China executes a lot more people than we do.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_China [wikipedia.org]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_the_United_States#Lethal_injection_era [wikipedia.org]
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 21 2017, @06:43PM (2 children)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Friday July 21 2017, @07:09PM (1 child)
Note that that 5000 is in a single year...3.5x as much in one year as the U.S. executed in the last 41. But sure, the U.S. locking up drug offenders for a few years is exactly commensurate to China executing thousands of basically yoga practitioners [wikipedia.org] for their organs to transplant.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 21 2017, @09:32PM
You're right, the U.S. executes far fewer people, and for far better reasons: mental illness, mental retardation, poverty, and race.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday July 21 2017, @11:39PM
Underreporting their number of prisoners. It's not like there are any consequences to the Chinese to lying about how many people they put in prison.
(Score: 0) by fakefuck39 on Saturday July 22 2017, @01:23AM
I don't. I and other people are talking about something else - not your topic.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday July 21 2017, @02:47PM (1 child)
For-profit prisons also have perverse incentives. But the evil of for-profit prisons seems to be getting some attention. So finding ways to exploit prisoners in state run prisons simply obeys the law of conservation of evil.
For profit prisons: getting the state to fill vacant cells increases revenue, and profits, and executive bonuses and enhanced shareholder value. Everyone happy.
State run prison labor camps: getting and retaining good help is hard, but it increases revenue, and profits, higher prison warden and staff salaries and benefits, fewer tax dollars spent. Everyone happy.
When trying to solve a problem don't ask who suffers from the problem, ask who profits from the problem.
(Score: 0) by fakefuck39 on Saturday July 22 2017, @06:12AM
yeah, those prison shareholder judges and jurors who give out harsh punishment in court to people arrested by police, then give prisoners highly skilled jobs that rake in the 300k in revenue that generates the 170k in profit, which after the 168k/inmate/year prison cost (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/24/nyregion/citys-annual-cost-per-inmate-is-nearly-168000-study-says.html) generates them 2k/year in ???profit!!!
you're just a special kind of special... good boy - tied those velcro shoes all by yourself. wash you hands after poopy. don't forget now.
(Score: 2) by Entropy on Friday July 21 2017, @08:01PM
They are paid a fair wage, when you consider the security costs of keeping violent people in jail, away from weapons, and not harming each other(or more importantly: people on the outside). Those costs are a net benefit to society, and don't just go away just because they have a job.
I rather large time in history we worked, or starved. Now we pay people to not work, make sure they don't starve, and they can get free health care by clogging up the emergency room at every nearby hospital.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Revek on Friday July 21 2017, @02:41PM (5 children)
Teach them to do nothing all day long and get free food and board. That way when they get out they have no incentive go out and get a job. That way they are more likely to get sent back to prison where they can site around all day doing nothing getting free room and board. As long as someone is getting paid for it. You can always find some soft soul whining about how bad it is to make them work and contribute.
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(Score: 4, Insightful) by mhajicek on Friday July 21 2017, @02:56PM (4 children)
Can't get a job anyway with a conviction on your record.
The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Revek on Friday July 21 2017, @03:37PM (1 child)
Yes, people can get jobs with a conviction on their record. Plenty of people with criminal records have jobs. I'm sure most government jobs are out but I'm betting they could get a job working on a dairy farm.
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(Score: 2, Funny) by Farmer Tim on Friday July 21 2017, @05:04PM
Came for the news, stayed for the soap opera.
(Score: 2) by fliptop on Friday July 21 2017, @11:05PM (1 child)
In my area I know ex-cons that work as roofers, landscapers, tire mechanics and day-laborers. There's lots of available jobs, you have to be willing to hustle though. Slackers are not tolerated.
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
(Score: 2) by Joe Desertrat on Monday July 24 2017, @06:44PM
Yes, it provides jobs for all those intrepid reporters who frequently run with "public service" reports on local news channels about how the contractors you hire are using "dangerous" people as employees. I'm all for hiring ex-cons mind you, if someone does not they end up being supported by taxpayers again one way or another, but it often ends up as another reason for hysteria by the soccer moms. Education is needed on both sides of the prison walls.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by bradley13 on Friday July 21 2017, @02:41PM (12 children)
As I understand it, one of the biggest problems for people coming out of prison is getting a job. And not only because of their criminal record, but because of a lack of believable work skills. In this sense, having prisoners work absolutely makes sense.
A second aspect is this: it costs money to keep someone in prison. There is no reason why they should not pay a portion of their prison costs in the form of labor. However, this should not be directly tied to the prison budget, rather, prisons should be paid for, and any income from the prisons should flow into the general budget. Anything else would give the prison false incentives. In this same sense, privately run prisons represent huge conflicts of interest.
Finally, without work, WTF are prisoners supposed to do all day? People need activity and purpose. Provide them with something useful to do. Allow them to keep a portion of their earnings, so that they have a positive motivation, and also so that they don't come out of prison dead broke.
Prison is not supposed to be only punishment, it is also supposed to be rehabilitation. Work is, or should be, a huge part of that.
Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday July 21 2017, @02:55PM (2 children)
This might work even better if you teach them useful skills instead of milking goats.
Teach them to mine coal, I hear there is a future in that. I hear it from no less than the president of the US.
How about something more useful like hacking. You could even start with simple things like Arduino robot kits like school children use in school.
Or teach them cooking. Real cooking. Not prison cooking. (Put in 55 gallon drum, heat to 5000 degrees for nine minutes, serves 1,200.)
Maybe even offer classes with actual credit, or some kind of certificate for successful completion. Electricity. Plumbing. Auto mechanics.
Of course, then you start to introduce security problems for the prison. Not everyone wants rehabilitation. Some people want to be criminals. That is their career goal. Formed by growing up with the reality of no possible opportunities for them. Something that as a society maybe we should fix to address the prison problem before criminals choose that as a profession.
When trying to solve a problem don't ask who suffers from the problem, ask who profits from the problem.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Snospar on Friday July 21 2017, @03:10PM (1 child)
Totally agree, there should be far more education in prisons. Let's face it, a lot of people are in prison because they made dumb decisions or were "stupid enough to get caught". People without skills, on low income jobs, have trouble managing their limited finances and end up doing something daft that eventually lands them in prison. Simple classes on avoiding debt, not getting suckered into expensive contracts (think mobile phone, cable TV, car loans, etc.) and some basic life skills to try and make them aware of the consequences of their actions - if prison hasn't hammered that message home.
For the majority of inmates we're not talking about training them up to be the next super villain, just teaching them how to live without ending up back inside again.
Huge thanks to all the Soylent volunteers without whom this community (and this post) would not be possible.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 21 2017, @03:31PM
> Simple classes on avoiding debt [etc.]...
...would be salutary not only during, but before incarceration.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Friday July 21 2017, @03:23PM
Charging them room and board when they would rather be evicted is a bit questionable at least. So is paying less than legal minimum wage. Yes, there are arguments for both, but there are enough landmines and perverse incentives to make both a bad ethical risk.
(Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Friday July 21 2017, @03:40PM (1 child)
When the US incarcerates more people than all other countries on the planet, then no, they shouldn't be paying for the right to be abused by the corrupt authoritarian regime that put them there.
Planting evidence: http://abcnews.go.com/US/bodycam-video-appears-show-baltimore-police-officer-planting/story?id=48723372 [go.com]
Statistics: http://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison-population-total?field_region_taxonomy_tid=All [prisonstudies.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @06:37AM
So your solution to police planting evidence, lying in court, corrupt judges, and idiot jurors is to have prisoners sit there and not work while people that have nothing to do with their crime pay 100-200k/year for their living and security expenses. Gotcha. You're a moron.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Friday July 21 2017, @04:19PM (4 children)
Seems like the only goat farm that can run around there is the one staffed with cheap prison labor.
Once you get out, will the non-prison goat farm hire a convict?
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 3, Informative) by c0lo on Saturday July 22 2017, @12:49AM (3 children)
See, there's one of the problems: there aren't any non-prison goat farms, they where driven out of business by the prison goat farm.
Why? Because there are too many "workers" in prison goat farms.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @06:44AM (2 children)
That's cute. You think the dollar the inmate gets paid is how much the goat company spends on them. No retard, the goat company pays a market wage to the prison, which then throws a bone to the inmate after using the money to pay for about 20% of their expenses associated with that prisoner. Knowledge is power. Before posting your little theories, get some.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @07:17AM
Right, the goat farm will gladly pay the going wage to have prisoners employed. Like there's a shortage of workers in this booming economy.
So is the grid. Feed some though you brain, it's not like is going to male the brain worse than it is now.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Saturday July 22 2017, @07:26AM
Here's the bit of knowledge you are after. If this is the power you are after, feel free to feed it to your flashlight then.
TFA:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Friday July 21 2017, @05:08PM
The alleged lack of believable work skills something that should be called into question. As in, somebody who's trying to hire for completely unskilled labor like pushing a broom or making sandwiches looks at the criminal record, looks at the skin color of the person trying to get the job, and says "Oh, they don't have the skills to do it." Heck, I know first-hand that some employers will make excuses like that even for non-white guys without a criminal record. The claim about skills is an HR-weasel way to get around the fact that they simply don't want to hire that person for reasons which have nothing to do with their qualifications.
For white collar jobs, instead of claiming the person doesn't have the right skills, they'll say that the person wasn't a fit for their company culture.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Friday July 21 2017, @04:33PM (2 children)
Why?
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 22 2017, @06:46AM (1 child)
If you don't understand why a hipster eating designer cheese doesn't want to eat a cheese produced by some dirty methhead, you need other questions answered first. Start by researching how to tie shoe laces - you'll fall less.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Monday July 24 2017, @04:25PM
I'm not saying hipsters don't care about ethically-sourced blah blah blah; I'm saying why is food different in that regard?
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 21 2017, @04:36PM
In Communist China, slaves held prisoner to make cheap products for jobless Amerikans.
In Capitalist USA, prisoners held as slaves to make cheap products for jobless Amerikans.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 21 2017, @05:39PM
I agree there should be work options for prisoners. It gives them skills and keeps their work-habits up.
HOWEVER, entire companies or industries shouldn't be dependent on such labor: that risks collusion, for one. There should be a limit of prison labor allocated per company.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 21 2017, @07:55PM
I've no opinion on the actual matter, but take issue with the headline.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 21 2017, @08:37PM
Now we know where it came from. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40651178 [bbc.com]