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A federal grand jury in Washington, DC has indicted 13 Russian nationals and a Kremlin-linked internet firm on charges that they had meddled in the 2016 presidential election.
The US government said Russian entities began interfering in US political processes, including the 2016 presidential election, as early as 2014, according to a court document.
[...] The charges – which include conspiracy, wire fraud, bank fraud and aggravated identity theft – are the most direct allegations to date of illegal Russian meddling in the election.
Link to the Indictment: https://www.justice.gov/file/1035477/download
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Mueller Investigation: Thirteen Russians Charged With Interfering in US Election
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Planet Claire has pink hair.
All the trees are red.
No one ever dies there.
No one has a head....
(Score: 3, Informative) by DeathMonkey on Monday February 19 2018, @05:55PM
And an additional California man is pleading guilty to using stolen identities to set up bank accounts that were then used by the Russians. [time.com]
(Score: 2) by SomeGuy on Monday February 19 2018, @06:02PM (10 children)
This investigation sounds like a messy twisting plate full of spaghetti.
(Score: -1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 19 2018, @07:32PM (1 child)
Russia was encouraging anti-Trump protests after the election. Michael Moore went, and there had the nerve to claim that Trump was connected to Russia!
http://dailycaller.com/2018/02/19/michael-moore-russian-anti-trump-rally/ [dailycaller.com]
This is not to say that Russia actually supports Clinton, though they might. It's possible that Russia would have made an effort to generate anti-Clinton protests had she won. In other words, Russia just likes to stir up trouble. On the other hand, she was easy to buy off, with her husband taking $500,000 for a speech in Moscow right before she approved the Uranium One company sale and the uranium exports. Russia may well have wanted her for that reason, despite the supposed poor relations. Poor relations can be a negotiating tactic.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 19 2018, @09:50PM
shhh.. please that goes against the narrative... and heads will explode.
(Score: 0, Informative) by frojack on Monday February 19 2018, @07:35PM (5 children)
None of these Russians will ever be arrested or put on trial. This is all for show by a special prosecutor who can't find an actual crime.
(Full year before Trump announced his candidacy).
Count 12: They paid some guy in the US (Unindicted co-conspirator?) to stand in front of the white house with a sign wishing happy 55th birthday to their (un-named) boss so he could be photographed.
Count 14: Some guy in Russia had a meeting with some other guy in Russia. Content of meeting not disclosed.
Count 16: Somebody purchased a laptop in the US and rented a server node
Count 18: Someone served as a translator
Count 19: A translator tried to get a visa to visit the US, but was denied
The whole thing is laughable. Stuff the CIA does in every country around the world.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 5, Informative) by meustrus on Monday February 19 2018, @10:15PM (4 children)
That's kind of how federal charges work. They pick bad guys, then find whatever they can to charge them with. Sometimes all they can do is "lying to a federal agent", when the federal agent was the investigator looking for evidence of a different crime.
This is not to say that they don't get actual bad guys this way. Most organized crime bosses and white collar criminals have covered their asses well enough that there isn't enough evidence to convict them for the crimes they actually committed.
In this case, though, these charges are most likely intended to be leverage to get them to cooperate as witnesses against a bigger target. This investigation is not over.
If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 19 2018, @11:20PM (2 children)
These are Russians in Russia, obviously not going to cooperate with anything.
You're expecting a bigger target? What, should we charge Putin? Sure. We'll just send the FBI over to arrest him in the Kremlin.
Or are you still clinging to some hopeless Trump-related fantasy? You must love Pence, because that wouldn't give you Bernie or even Hillary. You get Pence. Pence, Pence, Pence, glorious Pence, wonderful Pence!
(Score: 4, Interesting) by meustrus on Tuesday February 20 2018, @01:34AM (1 child)
I’m not hoping for anything but knowing the truth. Anyway, since impeachment is the process for removing the President, and even this relatively fast-paced investigation [fivethirtyeight.com] is unlikely to wrap up before the 2018 midterm makes impeachment politically possible.
And before you try to tell me the Republicans will keep Congress, remember that the minority party almost always makes huge gains in the midterms. It’s just as likely as the opposition winning a presidential election without an incumbent.
If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 20 2018, @03:10AM
It happens to be that lots of the senate seats up for reelection are currently held by democrats in areas that voted for Trump. In 2018, the republicans can't lose seats that are elected in 2014/2020 or in 2016/2022.
This oddity makes a gain in the senate probable. The republicans are likely to gain an additional seat or two.
Democrats will probably gain lots of seats in the house, but not enough to flip control. Democrats are way behind in the house.
(Score: 1) by DeVilla on Wednesday February 21 2018, @01:32AM
Problem is, the same is also true of innocent people.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 20 2018, @05:38AM (1 child)
MMMM...spaghetti!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 20 2018, @09:02PM
MMMM... Mueller's Spaghetti!
Since no one else gets it: http://muellerspasta.com/our-products/semolina-pasta/spaghetti/ [muellerspasta.com]
Now I'm really getting spaghetti hungry :P
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Monday February 19 2018, @06:03PM (57 children)
The US is the originator of "Banana Republics", after all. We have a long long history of "regime change" whenever such change might work to some corporation's profit. When you've cut through all of the propaganda on both sides, the Vietnam war was about profit - primarily rubber plantations, owned by the French. Rubber was a strategic resource (and it may still be, tires are still mostly rubber) and the US was determined to keep those plantations open, and the DuPonts rich. We sponsored the coup in Iran. We took out Saddam Hussein, then set up an election to ensure that our version of democracy would be accepted. Afghanistan saw a regime change, when a simple expeditionary campaign could have driven the point home far more efficiently.
Now, we protest like good little hypocrites when a foreign government may have tried to influence our elections?
Don't expect me to be terribly outraged whenever "what goes around comes around".
(Score: 2, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Monday February 19 2018, @06:19PM (45 children)
So I guess that oath you took to defend the constitution expires when you leave the service?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Monday February 19 2018, @06:35PM (21 children)
Maybe you can be a little more specific with your accusation. Which part of our constitution permits us to support our corporations when they meddle in overseas politics? Are you suggesting that the Corporate States of America needs my support when they are subjecting foreign nationals to conditions comparable to slavery? I should come to the defense of corporate boards and CEO's who use people and throw them away? How about Apple, and their infamous factory, where workers go in, work 12 hour shifts (or more) then doss down in some shabby company provided room - with twenty other workers. In the Caribbean, we should support a corporation that forms it's own mercenary army to overthrow foreing governments?
Defend the constitution? Karma is a bitch, man. It really sucks. When you figure out how to defeat that ancient Hindu concept of karma, let me know.
Again - what goes around, often comes around. Not that Russia's attempts at meddling in our election had any observable consequences. Or, are you going to claim that Hillary would have won, without Russian meddling? Dude - don't drink any more of the Kool-Aid. Just walk away from the punch bowl, and think for yourself, alright? The most observable set back for the democrats were the result of democrats. Specifically, HRC and Schultz' conspiracy to manipulate the DNC, and to stab Bernie in the back. Democrats revolted, either voting Republican, or voting third party, or simply by not voting.
I've said it before, and I'll repeat it here: If Sanders had won the nomination, he very well may have won the election. I'm not a Sanders supporter, but that man was far less objectionable than either HRC or Trump. He was the better choice than either of the pompous asses who got the nominations.
Don't even try to pull that Oathkeeper shit on me, Monkeyman. I didn't follow orders blindly when I was in uniform, and I won't allow some damned fool to give me orders today, based on his interpretation of the constitution.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 19 2018, @06:53PM (12 children)
Ah yes, the rare day when I stand by Runaway. Hmmm, that sentence seems a little odd!
(Score: 1, Troll) by DeathMonkey on Monday February 19 2018, @07:07PM (8 children)
Russia and this AC are totally fine with Russian government agents committing crimes to interfere with our elections.
(Score: 3, Troll) by frojack on Monday February 19 2018, @07:38PM (2 children)
Except there were no allegations of Russian Government involvement in the indictment.
If you could follow the money, it would probably lead back to George Solos.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2) by black6host on Monday February 19 2018, @09:29PM
Yeah, and George has a lot of money. Those damned red beer drinking cups, I bet it's a very profitable business! :)
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 20 2018, @02:01AM
Who is the Internet Research Agency [wikipedia.org]?
I''l give you a hint, they're not affiliated with the Boy Scouts of America.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 19 2018, @07:42PM (1 child)
Some of these supposed "crimes" are very weak. They trolled on Facebook with a few ad buys and some fake groups to try to cause outrage. That was Butterfly effect level shit.
If they hacked the DNC or Podesta rather than an insider, then that had a greater impact. Too bad none of the Russians charged will be seeing time in an American prison unless they are braindead.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 19 2018, @09:19PM
Braindead includes travelling to a country in the US sphere of influence. Russian citizens have been rendered to the US from places like Thailand and the Mauritius. More recently there was an incident in Czechia, but I recall there was a bit of resistance there. Looks like there is still a bit of independence left in Eastern Europe.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 19 2018, @07:51PM (1 child)
Lol, sorry DeathMonkey you're yelling at the wrong people. I've paid attention to Runaway's posts, and while a crapload of propaganda crap comes out of him so does quite a bit of human decency. As much as I hate some conservative politics I am forced to remember that even the people I disagree with are actually pretty decent human beings and if you threw them into real situations I think Runaway, TMB, maybe even Khallow and Frojack would help anyone out regardless of race or creed.
Runaway simply pointed out the typical line that most liberals would repeat, that karma is a bitch and the US fully deserves to be fucked with. That doesn't mean they think it is OK, I certainly don't, but I can appreciate the irony. Runaway already replied before you posted what I'm replying to, so if I was to make a guess you're just releasing some pent up anger at the nearest target and you should probably apologize with something like "sorry it just sounded like you were happy with the outcome because it got Trump elected, glad I was wrong."
Don't fall for the divisive tactics, because above all else that is the primary motivation behind the Russian trolls. Divide the country to reduce the effectiveness of the US. While letting out your righteous anger don't forget that we're all in the same boat. We're ALL afraid of the jackbooted thugs coming in and ruining our lives, thought liberals and conservatives have pretty different reasons behind their fear.
So remember, "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 19 2018, @07:56PM
^ AC you replied to
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 19 2018, @09:40PM
Crimes? You're quite deluded.
(Score: 3, Funny) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday February 19 2018, @09:30PM (2 children)
It's a weird feeling, isn't it? Even a stopped clock is right twice a day though.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 20 2018, @03:56AM (1 child)
I think you've used that one before. Use this as a bridge to your fellow human. I mean really, compare runaway to some of the more obvious goose steppers round here.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday February 20 2018, @04:09AM
Yeah, that's the hell of it...he's not a sociopath like J-Mo or Uzzard. He could possibly still be saved and redeem himself as a normal human being, but he's so completely in love with this idea he has that he's "asocial" (read: he's an invincible monolith) that it's probably not going to happen :(
The irony is that he's shot full of cracks and tends to explode violently on completely unexpected things. That doesn't sound like any invincible monolith of a man to me. And frankly after some of the shit he's said and done, I'm not going to lose sleep over him volunteering himself for the Solipsism All-Stars.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Monday February 19 2018, @07:34PM (4 children)
> HRC and Schultz' conspiracy to manipulate the DNC, and to stab Bernie in the back.
> Democrats revolted, either voting Republican, or voting third party, or simply by not voting.
And how did we suddenly all learn about the business-as-usual internal backstabbing, which played no small part in her defeat ?
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Nerdfest on Monday February 19 2018, @08:38PM (1 child)
People didn't learn from the leaks, it was quite clear from the start. The leaks confirmed, but by that point it hardly made news.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Thursday February 22 2018, @02:29AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_United_States_elections#Cyberattack_and_email_leaks [wikipedia.org]
I'm not sure in which county it "hardly made news", but the leaked emails weren't exactly a footnote in the campaign.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 19 2018, @11:27PM (1 child)
Seth Rich, a DNC employee, leaked the info to wikileaks.
Seth Rich was a decently patriotic American, though obviously clueless about some of the fundamental American values. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. The fact that Seth Rich's political choices would turn the USA into something like Venezuela does not change the fact that he meant well. Seth Rich adored Bernie. After the DNC supported Hillary in screwing over Bernie, Seth Rich leaked the dirt.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 20 2018, @05:43AM
That's rich! [wikipedia.org] (pun intended).
Is that you, Alex Jones?
(Score: 2, Informative) by khallow on Monday February 19 2018, @07:40PM (2 children)
The ability to create treaties for the entirety of the US and the Commerce Clause, for example. The Constitution gives a fairly broad latitude to meddle in other countries, even for the sake of US businesses.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 20 2018, @08:58AM (1 child)
Can we just lynch the entirety of our federal government, please?
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday February 20 2018, @09:47PM
Yes. It's time for all of them to go.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by aiwarrior on Monday February 19 2018, @06:42PM
Well, in Runaway's defense, he may actually be bravely upholding the constitution even if at his service time, American foreign policy was even more morally ambiguous than it is today.
Regardless he is not harming the constitution by actively exercising his first amendment, unless you live in a strange world, where he is still in active duty or speaking of state secrets. Maybe Runaway is a senior officer and we did not know :D
(Score: 2) by jdavidb on Monday February 19 2018, @07:11PM (21 children)
ⓋⒶ☮✝🕊 Secession is the right of all sentient beings
(Score: 3, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Monday February 19 2018, @07:20PM (15 children)
So, uhhhhh - when exactly do your marriage vows expire? Or a Hippocratic oath? Any other vow, or oath - when does each expire?
When I took that oath, there was no phrase in the oath, such as, "for the next $number of years". There are legal obligations that last until you die. Cold War secrets may be half a century old now, but people aren't running out to publish every little detail of what we did right, and what we did wrong.
The Constitution may not be a divine document, but it's about as close as man can get.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by bob_super on Monday February 19 2018, @07:50PM (5 children)
> The Constitution may not be a divine document, but it's about as close as man can get.
Therein lies your problem.
It's a set of rules, written as a compromise by pretty smart guys, a couple centuries ago. It ain't sacred.
What is "sacred" is the global intent (not some details like that 3/5ths stuff), the directing principles, and the people's rights protected by those rules.
The details of how each branch is elected, what their exact relationships are ... that's just one implementation. You like yours. Other countries have tried many variants, which have proven better or worse in various situations. Some countries tweak their fundamental law every few years, to deal with specific needs. The US constitution deals with those changes via SCOTUS rulings, since amendments have become near impossible.
Don't worship the paper or the implementation itself. Its stability over a long time is indeed an impressive feat. But recognize its worth without treating it as a pinnacle that doesn't need improvements. The people who wrote it agreed that it would have to change (wisely). Treating it a near Divine is not the right idea. Swearing to defend it is correct, as long as defending the Rights of the People always comes before defending the institutions.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 19 2018, @08:01PM
That is what we have amendments for, honestly I find that the worst policies comes from people who don't really respect the Constitution. Is this just a slow news day? Feels like division being created for the sake of division with this article.
This coming from an AC that loves to set out burning bait and see how many suckers bite and post their bullshit for all to see.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday February 20 2018, @09:53PM (3 children)
The rights themselves are given by God, so they are literally what is considered sacred. The Constitution itself is not sacred, but meant to lay out a form of government that will defend and uphold those rights.
In that way it is possible to feel religious devotion for the God-given rights and also utter contempt for what the government has become. The rights trump the constitution, and the founders themselves said explicitly that should a government become injurious to those rights that citizens have a duty to do away with it. That is the historical moment at which we have arrived.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Tuesday February 20 2018, @09:56PM (2 children)
> The rights themselves are given by God
*Proof needed*
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday February 21 2018, @12:39PM (1 child)
Here you go [ushistory.org], one of the foundational documents of the United States, in case you haven't read it before. I particularly draw your attention to the first two paragraphs.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Wednesday February 21 2018, @05:09PM
Do atheists and non-creationists get no rights ?
(Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Monday February 19 2018, @07:51PM (6 children)
> The Constitution may not be a divine document, but it's about as close as man can get.
The bible? (Or Qu'ran, etc)
(Score: 5, Insightful) by fyngyrz on Monday February 19 2018, @08:26PM (5 children)
No, fiction doesn't count.
(Score: 2) by arslan on Monday February 19 2018, @10:00PM (4 children)
I agree with you totally, but unfortunately reality seems to disagree...
(Score: 2) by fyngyrz on Monday February 19 2018, @10:27PM (3 children)
FTFY
(Score: 2) by unauthorized on Tuesday February 20 2018, @04:12AM (2 children)
It's not superstition at all that people believe that $HOLY_BOOK is a decree from the heavens.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 20 2018, @12:07PM (1 child)
Believing does not make it any closer to being true.
(Score: 2) by arslan on Tuesday February 20 2018, @10:21PM
Sure, but it is reality that people are believing and behaving accordingly to affect the state of our world. That was my point.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by fustakrakich on Monday February 19 2018, @07:54PM (1 child)
Every constitution, then, and every law, naturally expires at the end of nineteen years. If it be enforced longer, it is an act of force, and not of right. - Some guy who died a long long time ago, so I'm sure it can't possibly plausible in these "Modern Times"
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 21 2018, @01:48AM
And the moron who modded this down either does not know American history, or does not want to know American history. Did anybody bother to look up who said that? Or is the dominate narrative more important?
Gramdpa's law isn't necessarily good in these times. All law should be sunsetted, just like how we can sunset a politician's term in office.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 20 2018, @02:12AM (4 children)
Nope. It's not. Which is why it can, and has repeatedly, be amended.
It also happens to be the law of the land throughout the United States.
If you live in the United States, you are, if not a public official or a naturalized citizen (who give their explicit support for the Constitution), at bare minimum, giving tacit consent to the primacy of that document as the law of the land.
If you think it's some or all of the constitution is wrong or bad, then convince enough people of your position and amend it. Alternatively, you can stay in the US, ignore it and risk the consequences, or leave the US.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 20 2018, @09:02AM
If you choose to be born on Piece of Land X, then you give Tacit Consent to have Y done to you. Seems reasonable. Maybe I'll just abandon my family and property and go to that other piece of land that isn't claimed by any government and won't be in the future. Oh, wait, that doesn't exist.
There are actual arguments against anarchy, but this isn't one of them.
(Score: 2) by jdavidb on Tuesday February 20 2018, @01:26PM (2 children)
I do not consent.
I will continue to work to persuade people that this arrangement is not in their best interest.
ⓋⒶ☮✝🕊 Secession is the right of all sentient beings
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 20 2018, @08:25PM (1 child)
Civil disobedience is an occupation with a long history and mixed results. Assuming you aren't impinging on the rights of others, I support your choice.
Given your posting history, there are some areas in which you are unlikely to garner my support. However, I applaud you for your efforts. That activity is at the heart of a free society.
Further, other honest and fair minded folks have different conceptions as to what changes would be beneficial to our society. Creating broad coalitions has historically been the mechanism through which we have made positive (and some negative) strides in improving our institutions to better serve us all.
As such, I suggest that perhaps you might consider *not* making the perfect the enemy of the good. This may already be the case for you, I don't know.
(Score: 2) by jdavidb on Tuesday February 20 2018, @10:35PM
ⓋⒶ☮✝🕊 Secession is the right of all sentient beings
(Score: 2) by legont on Monday February 19 2018, @06:49PM (3 children)
Not only that, it appears that Russians supposedly changed the results of the elections with a little over a million bucks. How shall I call it... milliPAC I guess.
And even from a pure business proposition how about shorting the next president futures and using the proceeds for the election meddling from some safe place abroad? Some of us would be able to afford it and supplement lousy pensions.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday February 19 2018, @06:54PM (2 children)
That is a real kicker. We officially spend many millions on an election, and unofficially, we probably invest a billion in an election. But, the Russkies have magic dollars that grow in size as they flow from the Kremlin to the US. Maybe I want to buy some of those Russian dollars.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by pe1rxq on Monday February 19 2018, @07:12PM
Maybe the Russians are just better investors?
It seems most of money spend in the US comes from large corporations paying both sides to keep the status quo. (The status quo being them screwing everyone else)
The Russians seem to just want to mess things up, I wouldn't be surprised if that was cheaper to accomplish.
(Score: 3, Funny) by realDonaldTrump on Monday February 19 2018, @07:42PM
Thank you for your support! Many people are saying that Crooked Hillary spent about $1 billion. I spent much less -- and a lot of it came back to me, to the Trump Organization. My campaign rented offices in Trump Tower, rooms in my hotels, so many things. We can call it an investment, I love that word.
In this investigation, the facts are incorrect. I never said Russia did not meddle in the election, I said "it may be Russia, or China or another country or group, or it may be a 400 pound genius sitting in bed and playing with his computer." The Russian "hoax" was that the Trump campaign colluded with Russia -- it never did. NO COLLUSION!!!!
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Monday February 19 2018, @07:13PM (5 children)
GO, MAN, GO!
My wife and i were watching a show on netflix last night (something about the last days of the third reich or something) and the announcer/whatever is going on about how morally bankrupt the German people were but it got me thinking:
The Americans (and Soviets) raced like bloody hell to Germany when they heard that there had been experiments on Jewish prisoners: NOT to take that data and destroy it as it was morally wrong in the way it was obtained but to take it and absorb it all.
Yes, some was used for good(ish)... they knew how long a person could survive in certain temperature water, etc, but a lot of it would have been of questionable value (morally speaking).
[^this, to me, is like a serial killer not getting to write a book and profit from it, but someone else comes along and writes a book and profits from it: maybe of some value to someone, but a morally questionable profit.]
As well, they raced to beat the Soviets to the scientists who worked in the fields of rocketry and nuclear science: not to put them to trial for the damage and loss of life they were accountable for, but for the knowledge they had.
America crying crocodile tears: "You did us harm!.....just like we did to you. "
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday February 19 2018, @07:40PM
Destroy the data? Sorry, I have a different perspective. As reprehensible as the experiments were, they did yield valuable data. You mention hypthermia, specifically. The knowledge from those experiments has saved many lives. It has probably saved many Jewish lives, as well as non-Jews.
I think that if I had been a subject of those experiments, I would have wanted the data to survive the sadistic assholes who tortured me to death.
No, I can't speak for the Jews. I'm basing my idea on what I think that I would have wanted. Maybe we should research whether Israel has made us of any of that data? Or, maybe we should find out whether an American Jewish doctor uses that data in his practice.
Many years ago, I learned cold weather survival. They had a "rule of 30" that we had to memorize. Thirty minutes, at thirty degrees, with a thirty mile per hour wind, freezes exposed flesh. I never questioned where that information came from. In retrospect, that probably came from Nazi Germany. That bit of survival information is just one more thing we owe the Jews for.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday February 19 2018, @07:47PM (3 children)
That's absurd. Are you really going to tell me, for example, that a few medical experiments were more valuable to the Soviets than the Eastern Bloc was? They both raced like hell so they would control more territory at the end of the war.
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Monday February 19 2018, @08:29PM (2 children)
Yes, shit, they raced for territory, but they also raced for scientists, data, filing cabinets. They took who they could get as fast as they could as fast as they took territory.
But I'm talking about the Americans here: the Soviets were just a side line in the conversation. Focus!!
The Americans weren't going to get anything out of 'territory', but they SURE AS SHIT got something out of the data and scientists they whisked away from Europe and back to U.S.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday February 19 2018, @09:24PM (1 child)
Yes, they would. That would mean less territory for the Soviets after the war.
Which is vastly more than just medical experiments on Jews. For example, there was the ballistic missile program and the German nuclear weapon research.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday February 19 2018, @09:25PM
(Score: 2) by sjames on Monday February 19 2018, @10:06PM
It isn't hypocrisy for the people who protested against U.S. military action in Vietnam, Iraq, Iran, etc. Only for those who were cheering until the tables turned.
(Score: 5, Informative) by DeathMonkey on Monday February 19 2018, @06:12PM (15 children)
For those of you playing along at home that brings Mueller's score to 3 guilty pleas and 15 indictments.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 19 2018, @07:10PM (3 children)
Who's on the other side of this leader board? How many points does that translate to? 6 for a guilty plea and 3 for an indictment? 63 points so far?
I didn't vote for a pussy-grabber so I don't really care what his team's score is. It will be a very long time before I throw my vote away on the D team again.
If the D team couldn't even win against a pussy-grabber, if the D team couldn't even convince a majority of white women to vote against a pussy-grabber, their credibility is shot to hell. It's time to look at the Green Party [gp.org] for a political party with a progressive platform.
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 19 2018, @07:28PM (2 children)
Context is everything, young Pud-a-wan. Pussy-grabbing sounds so vulgar, yes? But, for the right man, for Prince Charming, women are happy to be grabbed. Go visit any meat locker in any city on a Saturday night. You'll find plenty of women trying to find the right man to grab them. They went to the meat market, looking for some meat, not for flowers.
Speaking of flowers - why do women mutilate the genitalia of plants? Do they hate plants that much?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 20 2018, @05:47AM (1 child)
The difference is *consent* moron.
Are you familiar with that term?
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 20 2018, @09:56AM
Consent? As in they (the women) just let you?
"When you're a star, they let you do it. You can do anything... Grab 'em by the pussy. You can do anything."
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 19 2018, @07:12PM (8 children)
Keeping foreigners from meddling in our elections is important. I assume you support strong ID requirements for voters... or are you a hypocrite?
But anyway, there was a president who did not properly vet and track these people coming from foreign countries. Nope, not Trump.
(Score: 3, Funny) by Gaaark on Monday February 19 2018, @07:15PM
Keeping Americans from meddling in foreign elections is important TOO! or it's tit-for-tat and stop crying!
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 5, Insightful) by bob_super on Monday February 19 2018, @07:31PM (6 children)
This is not about Russians casting illegal ballots. Don't move the goalposts.
Some people have to stop shouting "fake news" and "witch hunt", when the people involved keep pleading guilty.
(Score: 0, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 19 2018, @07:36PM (1 child)
It's identity theft. (not election interference... unless you go vote)
It's wire fraud. (not election interference)
It's conspiracy to defraud. (not election interference)
So, if we're going to care about that stuff, there are a few million people in the USA right now who are committing identity theft.
(Score: 2, Informative) by DeathMonkey on Monday February 19 2018, @08:53PM
Using identity theft to interfere with an election is election interference.
Using wire fraud to illegally donate to a political campaign is election interference.
Using a conspiracy to hide the fact that you are illegally interfering in an election is election interference.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 19 2018, @07:37PM (1 child)
You can't be that naive to not know that people are liable to plea out to something minor, because they can't afford a real defense.
(Score: 4, Informative) by bob_super on Monday February 19 2018, @08:04PM
Those people ? We're not talking about Joe taco-place-owner here.
They are pleading guilty to try to limit their own sentences, after they got cornered.
It usually means that they did worse than what they are pleading guilty to, just that it's harder to prove.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 19 2018, @08:54PM (1 child)
These people mostly aren't even in the country. They aren't pleading anything at all. They aren't even going to be arrested.
It's like the Chinese military hackers that were charged with computer crimes. Good luck arresting them. You'd have to conquer China.
It's like the American citizens that were charged in Italy for doing CIA stuff. Italy can bitch all they want, but what can they do? Invading the USA isn't going to go well. Maybe catch the people off-guard, toss them into unmarked vans, and then meet up with a mini-submarine off the coast of Alabama? Good luck with that.
(Score: 4, Touché) by Yog-Yogguth on Monday February 19 2018, @09:14PM
They could always start kidnapping or murdering them like the US already does.
Bite harder Ouroboros, bite! tails.boum.org/ linux USB CD secure desktop IRC *crypt tor (not endorsements (XKeyScore))
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 19 2018, @10:55PM (1 child)
On Friday, Judge Emmet Sullivan issued an order in United States v. Flynn that reveals that a motion to withdraw the guilty plea based on government misconduct is likely.
You'll never get what you want. Trump is still your president. All you can manage to do is to cause division, which is exactly what the Russians want.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 20 2018, @02:21AM
[citation needed]
(Score: 4, Insightful) by GlennC on Monday February 19 2018, @06:45PM (13 children)
I'm not going to say that this shouldn't be prosecuted, as I don't have all the facts of the matter.
However, given the well-known and well-documented legal and ethical problems both candidates have, I highly doubt that anything these people could do made any significant difference in the election results. I personally don't trust either Clinton or Trump to lead a pack of Cub Scouts, much less a nation. I voted third-party in the Presidential election, for what it's worth, and I'm fairly confident that it was not because of any foreign influence.
Sorry folks...the world is bigger and more varied than you want it to be. Deal with it.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 19 2018, @06:50PM (1 child)
"I'm not going to say that this shouldn't be prosecuted, as I don't have all the facts of the matter."
Pet, pet, good boi!
And guys who marry young girls should be put into hell too!
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday February 19 2018, @09:34PM
You get within kicking distance of me, Kvaratskhelia, and you will be. I've got steel-toed shoes.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 5, Informative) by vux984 on Monday February 19 2018, @07:58PM (10 children)
"I'm not going to say that this shouldn't be prosecuted, as I don't have all the facts of the matter."
I'm going to suggest that this should be prosecuted, because while I have limited faith in the legal system; I do have some faith. This isn't a witch hunt, people aren't having confessions tortured out of them. To waffle and say 'i don't have all the facts of the matter' is legitimate and skepticism is healthy ... but past a certain point, its as silly as defending the cigarette companies because you personally haven't seen and personally reviewed all the studies to your satisfaction, therefore your not sure that cigarettes are bad for your health. so it would be "premature to take a side on this issue". At some point when pretty much everybody with a shred of credibility on both sides of the aisle is convinced and all the intelligence agencies agree, then the burden of proof even to be 'neutral' starts to shift to you.
"However, given the well-known and well-documented legal and ethical problems both candidates have"
So even you agree that there's likely some criminal activity to prosecute after all then.
"I highly doubt that anything these people could do made any significant difference in the election results."
Given how close the election was, I don't see how you reach that conclusion with any authority.
And even if it didn't make a significant difference in the election results -- that hardly means it's "ok". Even if it means Trump would have won the election by a greater margin, I'd *still* support rooting out election corruption. The two separate issues shouldn't be conflated as if one mattered to the other.
"I personally don't trust either Clinton or Trump to lead a pack of Cub Scouts, much less a nation. I voted third-party in the Presidential election, for what it's worth, and I'm fairly confident that it was not because of any foreign influence."
Well I guess we can set your vote aside in the confirmed manipulated bix. Only a couple hundred million more people to interview.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 19 2018, @08:02PM
Maybe next time Russia will register a SuperPAC so it's all legal.
(Score: 1, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 19 2018, @08:27PM (3 children)
OK, if we are going after election meddling, then when do the indictments start for organizations like AIPAC (and many others)?
How about against Diebold for faulty voting machines?
The list goes on and on.
I suggest that before going after this incident, there are many other more serious things to fix.
(Score: 5, Informative) by vux984 on Monday February 19 2018, @08:51PM (2 children)
Look, I'm with you on stuff like PACs, including AIPAC. They aren't breaking the law though; the law itself needs to change. I support that change.
I'm also with you in opposition to the use of voting machines - I think Canada's paper ballot system is far better model. (And don't tell me its 1/10th the population, because that's irrelevant. The US will have 10x the number of voting stations, 10x the number of ballot boxes, 10x the number of people counting them, it will scale up just fine.) I'm not convinced Diebold was malicious though or broke any laws; just that they were incompetent and made defective equipment. Again, the solution there is to stop using them.
"I suggest that before going after this incident, there are many other more serious things to fix."
That argument never works, and doesn't make a lot of sense. Next time a mugger gets apprehended, he should say "I suggest that before going after this incident, there are many other more serious things to fix. I'm pretty sure there's an unsolved murder or two out there."
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 19 2018, @09:00PM (1 child)
The poll workers claimed that the machine was down, so I should just leave my paper ballot in a pile that they would scan later. Sure...
It's easy with all-electronic voting too. Just "forget" to charge the machines in an area where people vote the wrong way. People will give up and go home.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Monday February 19 2018, @09:56PM
I wonder if absentee ballots are more or less likely to be suppressed.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 19 2018, @09:29PM (4 children)
"Well I guess we can set your vote aside in the confirmed manipulated bix. Only a couple hundred million more people to interview."
Yeah, no partisanship on your part.
I've been voting third-party since I could vote, almost thirty decades now. I guess that means the Russians have a time machine they've been using to interfere in our elections, by your logic.
(Score: 2) by vux984 on Monday February 19 2018, @09:59PM
"Well I guess we can set your vote aside in the confirmed manipulated bix."
Ugh. Not what I'd intended to say. I'd meant to say confirmed *not* manipulated bin. At least I'm not the only one afflicted with typos.
"I've been voting third-party since I could vote, almost thirty decades now."
thirty decades? what's your secret? :)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 20 2018, @02:26AM (2 children)
And in which elections were you voting, say twenty seven decades ago? Inquiring minds want to know.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 20 2018, @06:11PM (1 child)
The Colonial Legislature, Coroner, Judges, etc. Why, in Rhode Island, I do recall, we did Elect our own Governor. on Diverse Occasions.
And did Vote aloud, no less--none of your "Secret Ballots," no--a Man had to Stand before God, the Judge, the Candidates and the Propertied Men his Neighbours and Declare his Mind, whether it be In Agreement with the Rest or no.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 20 2018, @11:20PM
Oh, so you're an SJW from the East Coast, eh? Why do you hate America? We don't want your kind here.