SoylentNews is people
SoylentNews
France to set legal age of sexual consent as 15
France plans to fix the legal age of sexual consent as 15, meaning sex with someone younger than that would be considered rape.
Equality Minister Marlène Schiappa welcomed the move, which follows advice from doctors and legal experts. Currently, prosecutors must prove sex with someone under 15 was forced in order to bring rape charges. The change comes amid uproar over two recent cases of men accused of having sex with 11-year-old girls.
Under the existing legislation, if there is no violence or coercion proved, offenders may only be charged with sexual abuse of a minor and not rape. This has a maximum sentence of five years in prison and a fine of €75,000 (£66,000; $87,000).
[...] The government is to approve the new age limit as part of a package of other laws against sexual violence and harassment in the coming weeks. It had been discussing whether to set the age as 13 or 15, which is what groups fighting violence against children had campaigned for.
Les commentaires déplorables.
Also at The Local, NPR, and SBS.
Related: French Porn Star Hits Back at President Emmanuel Macron's Plans to Censor Online Porn
(Score: 3, Interesting) by milsorgen on Thursday March 08 2018, @02:08AM (6 children)
Why not just increase the punishment for the "sexual abuse of a minor" charge?
On the Oregon Coast, born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days...
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 08 2018, @02:34AM (5 children)
Why not just require marriage?
To use English-language terms, the crime of fully unmarried sex is then "fornication" and when at least one party is married to somebody else it is "adultery". Make adultery have a civil component as well, letting the wronged party (or parties) sue for damages against any of the adulterers.
If you want sex at 15 or even below, simply demonstrate to a court that you are fit to marry and then get married.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 08 2018, @04:11AM (2 children)
Sorry. Not all of us care to live according to Deuteronomy or Sharia law, which ever one you're going for there. Society's moved on.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 08 2018, @09:14AM
Sorry, not all of us realize that this part of the Deuteronomy or Sharia laws is simply several ten thousand years of best practice (evolution) formalized.
And really, society actually did not move on that much... people still are clan/tribal-oriented in their most basic behavior.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 09 2018, @03:09AM
> Sorry. Not all of us care to live according to Deuteronomy or Sharia law, which ever one you're going for there. Society's moved on.
Sorry? Didn't you get the memo? France is just adapting its laws to match the new rules.
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/11904/infidel-women-spoils-of-war [gatestoneinstitute.org]
French politicians know which side their baguette is buttered on.
http://www.meforum.org/3182/history-muslim-conquests [meforum.org]
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Thursday March 08 2018, @04:49PM (1 child)
As opposed to what, partially unmarried sex? lol
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Thursday March 08 2018, @09:19PM
"Partially unmarried sex" would have to be those rare cases of people having sex while having signed only some of the legal documents required. Or right in the middle of the ceremony - Ooh la la!
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday March 08 2018, @02:09AM (3 children)
Driving age and age of consent really should be the same. Set them to different ages and you either have enormous amounts of illegal sex going on or you have teenagers having legal sex but without a handy back seat.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 1, Funny) by realDonaldTrump on Thursday March 08 2018, @02:54AM (2 children)
Let me tell you, my son Barron is 11. Almost 12. So before we hire a driver we always, always do very thorough vetting. The background check. When a driver is a child molester, we don't let him drive Barron. And when a driver is a rapist we don't let him drive my wife. If it's confirmed by a court, not a mere allegation. So many people are falsely accused. I'm a big believer in due process, it's part of what makes America great! But to be perfectly honest with you, very hard for a teenage driver to get hired by us. Maybe he's a wonderful guy, maybe he's a very bad (or sick) dude. I like drivers who have experience. I like drivers who have good references. Not too tall. And with a good driving record!
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Thursday March 08 2018, @04:29AM (1 child)
What kind of vetting do you do to make sure they can drive Ivanka?
(Score: 2, Funny) by realDonaldTrump on Thursday March 08 2018, @05:20AM
Ivanka is all grown now. They grow up so fast! And she does her own hiring. But for many, many years we had a very gun-adept nanny from Serbia, Milka was her name. RIP!!
(Score: 2) by Techwolf on Thursday March 08 2018, @02:36AM (47 children)
Why use a fixed number instead of actual sexual maturity? (I forget the medical term for it.)
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Thursday March 08 2018, @02:43AM (12 children)
How invasive would an investigation to determine sexual maturity be? And, what definition is used? "If she's old enough to bleed, she's old enough to breed"? And, the sexual maturity of either party to an encounter doesn't define abuse, rape, or much of anything else.
It's a helluva lot less invasive for the court to ask the girl involved, "What was your date of birth?"
I'm not real sure that 15 is the "right age", but it's apparently better than what France had. And, it is just about what the US has. Here, sexual relations with 15 to 18 year old girls is viewed less harshly than relations with 14 or younger.
Face it: predators are predators, and predators like young vulnerable things. Fifteen sounds like a pretty good place to establish some limits.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 08 2018, @05:00AM
Old enough to pee, old enough for me! Boo-yah!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 08 2018, @05:53AM (2 children)
It wouldn't be. You simply investigate each case individually to determine if an actual rape took place, rather than lazily declaring that anyone under age X cannot consent. You know, the same thing we do when someone is accused of raping an adult: Investigation. But that's too nuanced for our ridiculous society.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 08 2018, @09:22AM (1 child)
Because a 55 year old guy having sex with a 5 year old girl just might be consentual...
You live in either a very beautiful or very ugly world.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 08 2018, @07:28PM
And why is that the first example that pops into your head, rather than something more reasonable? The problem with these arbitrary ages is that there are nearly always exceptions, and just like we say that it's better for countless criminals to get away than for one innocent person to be convicted, I'd say it's better to err on the side of freedom here is well. But because The Children are involved, few can think rationally.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 08 2018, @09:24AM (7 children)
A hormone level/balance test should not be that intrusive.
Sample some blood, see how the levels and balance of various hormones hold up towards the averages of a child (no sexual hormones), a teen (pretty much messed up :-) ) and an adult (balanced hormones within a certain bandwidth).
And it will provide a nice way of finding the (future) predators/wackos with their messed up hormones that are causing most of the problems right now anyway...
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday March 08 2018, @03:02PM (5 children)
Uh-huh - yeah - I'm with you on that! It's not invasive at all to take a blood sample! Nope, not even a little bit! Bleed that bitch dry! We've got to decide whether she is old enough to rape, or if our Good Old Boy should have thrown her back. Those young ones are catch and release, right? </sarcasm>
Seriously, man - the girl says she was raped, and you want to stick her with a needle? This makes less sense than poking her already abused vagina with a swab in search of semen. Oh, wait, the rapist says it was consensual? Oh, well then, it's alright - bleed the bitch!!
(Score: 2) by ewk on Friday March 09 2018, @08:39AM (4 children)
No woman ever lied... Sure....
I don't always react, but when I do, I do it on SoylentNews
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday March 09 2018, @02:37PM (3 children)
Nor has any man ever lied. More to the point, no woman has ever been raped by a man, right? Every case ever investigated was found to be trumped up.
I've got an idea. In this age of social justice, and putting down white hetero males, why don't we just have a judicial lottery system? 50% of rape suspects are put to death, and 50% are exonerated, and the victims are put to death instead. Notice, I limited that to white hetero males, because only white hetero males have raped every gender, race, nationality, and culture they have ever met. /sarcasm
(Score: 2) by ewk on Friday March 09 2018, @03:02PM (2 children)
Please tell me what you have been snorting... that way I know what to avoid.
Social justice is neither, so sarcasm or not, your rant totally missed my point of applying the right amount of due diligence where it is needed.
I don't always react, but when I do, I do it on SoylentNews
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday March 09 2018, @03:38PM (1 child)
Did I neglect my /sarcasm tag?
(Score: 2) by ewk on Friday March 09 2018, @05:42PM
Nope, hence my remark of "so sarcasm or not".
But, if your reaction was an extension/elaboration to mine, then my ability to recognize it as such, needs a bit of fine tuning. :-)
I don't always react, but when I do, I do it on SoylentNews
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Thursday March 08 2018, @04:47PM
Not that intrusive for the court, maybe. Although I would also disagree with that.
It's much more intrusive for meeting people on the street than a simple ID check.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2) by takyon on Thursday March 08 2018, @02:57AM (4 children)
Because knowledge of medicine and mental health is tenuous [sciencemag.org] at best.
What is your new standard going to be? Fertility/first period? That would effectively lower the age of consent for most girls/women, and could have loopholes, like drug or diet-induced early onset of puberty. Mental maturity? Probably impossible to determine without privacy-killing "mind reading" technology, and subject to bias.
There can be no common sense or evidence-based approach, only arbitrary laws for things like this, or which drugs to ban, etc.
Have voters considered ballot initiatives on this topic? We could add to the clusterfuck with a little direct democracy. Let's see which states can get the age of consent to 19 or 11.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 08 2018, @04:16AM (1 child)
I wanna see a state get the age of consent to 33. Isn't that part of some wacky religious tradition?
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 08 2018, @12:34PM
From the brain development view point that would make much more sense.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621648/ [nih.gov]
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2892678/ [nih.gov]
etcetc
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Thursday March 08 2018, @05:14AM (1 child)
I agree with the first bit. Even if it is arbitrary, trying to determine, on a case-by-case basis whether someone is mature enough to consent would be a legal and constitutional nightmare.
As for age of consent laws in North America [wikipedia.org], Canada has a uniform age of consent (16), in the US (ranging from 16-18) and Mexico (ranging from onset of puberty to 14)*, the age of consent is set on a state-by-state basis.
I can't speak to Canada or Mexico, but in the US, representative governments presumably enact age of consent laws commensurate with the preferences of the electorate.
*Which makes this [youtube.com] a *little* less disturbing. :)
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by ewk on Thursday March 08 2018, @09:43AM
Of course it would be a legal and constitutional nightmare, after all, this is not a legal and constitutional problem.
It's a biological and psychological problem. Solving that with some arbitrary limit on only one (age) of the biological factors involved seems overly simplistic.
I don't always react, but when I do, I do it on SoylentNews
(Score: 2, Troll) by realDonaldTrump on Thursday March 08 2018, @03:08AM
What they have now is called consent. They ask, was there consent? Can this person consent? And maybe they're too young to consent, you know? And the courts decide on that one by one, there isn't a certain age for that. So many places, there's a certain age and it's the same for everybody in that Country or that state. Not in France. Alabama, it's 16 in Alabama. And maybe, probably, the folks in France want to try something different. Where it's ALWAYS a problem if she's under 15 and you're over 15.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 08 2018, @03:10AM (13 children)
What we should do is perform an MRI scan on the female's pelvis to determine if she is a girl or woman. Model the bone structure in a computer, and determine if a large baby (for example 5 kg / 11 pounds) could be safely born without medical intervention. If that would work, then the female is a woman and she gets that marked on an ID card.
For a male, he must have a home that he solely pays for or owns. He must show that he has an ability to support a woman and any resulting children. He likewise gets his status marked on an ID card.
I wonder what the record-breaking low age would be for each sex. It's probably something that sounds absurd until you actually look at the people in question.
(Score: 3, Funny) by takyon on Thursday March 08 2018, @03:37AM (9 children)
1. Initiate universal basic income protocol.
2a. Make the benefits opt-in (not universal), but require temporary or permanent sterilization to receive them.
OR
2b. Lower the age of consent for boys to the point at which virility is achieved. A government approved IoT onahole will be issued to every household for sperm evaluation. It will also genetically identify the current user.
OR
2c. Kill all (males|females). The remaining (females|males) will reproduce artificially.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Thursday March 08 2018, @07:14AM (8 children)
2c. Kill all (males|females). The remaining (females|males) will reproduce artificially.
I actually like this one, but without the killing part: just sterilize everyone, and do all reproduction artificially and let the state handle child-rearing. Right now, it's a disaster, with the people who make the very worst parents having the most kids, and the people who'd make good parents having few or none, and a huge number of kids growing up in poverty (with society basically outsourcing a lot of reproduction to improverished people through some meager handouts).
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday March 08 2018, @07:36AM (4 children)
If you think the problems we create are bad, ... [shopify.com]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Thursday March 08 2018, @04:59PM (3 children)
Other countries seem to do just fine with their governments. Do Norwegians complain about their government? From over here, it seems like their government works decently well. Same for the Danish government and the Swiss government. The Japanese government doesn't seem too bad either; they sure do a much better job with public transit and trains than we do (or just about anyone for that matter).
Just because one country can't seem to have an effective government doesn't mean they're all necessarily like that.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday March 08 2018, @09:19PM (2 children)
Do the govts you listed substitute themselves for parenting (like the OP suggested some should try)?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Touché) by Grishnakh on Thursday March 08 2018, @09:35PM (1 child)
No, I don't think any governments do that, except maybe the US government where letting your young children out of your sight in public is a high crime and will get you arrested for "child abandonment". Meanwhile, over in Japan, young children (like 7-8) are pushed out of the home and made to walk themselves to school instead of having helicopter parents with them every minute of the day.
But if governments did decide to get into the business of parenting, it seems like those countries would probably figure out a pretty good way of doing it somehow, perhaps getting retired people involved with the kids to an extent, organizing activities to mix them with other parts of society, etc. In the US, they'd probably just set up big compounds resembling prisons, run by large corporations under contract.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday March 08 2018, @11:12PM
You mean like in those Second World countries, where the retired grandparents aren't automatically discarded into the jaws of an aged care industry which they can't afford, but kept nearby and contributing to the care and education of their grandchildren. Keeping the retired moderately active also improve their quality of life.
Who would have thought the natural way (which, as side effect, deny profits to an industry worth zillions in First World countries) could be better?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by takyon on Thursday March 08 2018, @07:49AM (1 child)
The cries from the religious and civil rights activists would be intense. It would be seen as eugenics, playing God, and/or an attempt to wipe out the disproportionately poor black population. It would probably spark a kind of civil war and intense domestic terrorism. It would never get proposed in the first place because America runs on Dunkin'... I mean it runs primarily on Jesus Christ. It's not clear that America has an overpopulation crisis or that additional people would be bad for the economy. There are also other, more conspiracy-y ways to get rid of citizens. Ground wars probably wouldn't do enough and we don't have conscription anymore. Ramping up the Drug War and playing both sides (dealer and DEA) could score some casualties. The CIA can give pointers. The CDC says heroin-related deaths [cdc.gov] increased by a factor of 5 from 2010-2016. And if you've seen the anemic White House summit(s) [soylentnews.org] on the issue, you'll know that the trend might not be reversing anytime soon. So for all we know, the plan is in full effect. And I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Thursday March 08 2018, @04:54PM
The cries from the religious and civil rights activists would be intense. It would be seen as eugenics, playing God, and/or an attempt to wipe out the disproportionately poor black population. It would probably spark a kind of civil war and intense domestic terrorism.
Well, how about we eliminate the sterilization part and just do the second part?
One significant issue is that, if we just continue with things as they are, populations are going to decrease. In most western countries, the only reasons populations are increasing at all is because of immigration. In Japan, it's decreasing, since they don't have much immigration. We're now finding that when a society is educated and prosperous and technological, no longer agrarian, and no longer treats women as second-class citizens mainly consigned to being incubators and domestic servants, that people just don't have many kids, if any. Assuming every society reaches this state of education and relative peace and prosperity and technologicalism eventually, then the phenomenon we have now of people migrating from poor countries to richer ones will slow down and finally stop, but the birth rates everywhere will be low, and population globally will start falling. At that point, what is society supposed to do? Sure, maybe we don't *need* 10B people, but smaller societies are less productive societies, and it's unlikely there's going to become a natural equilibrium: people just don't want to have 2.5 kids per couple when they're employed and have better things to do with their time than change diapers and aren't being forced into that line of work.
The society depicted in Brave New World may seem extreme from our current point-of-view, but I see it as the realistic choice when a society has reached the point where its members simply aren't willing to become unpaid volunteers doing the labor necessary to maintain or expand the population.
(Score: 2) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Thursday March 08 2018, @11:37AM
That's a Brave New World you are describing.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Thursday March 08 2018, @03:47AM (2 children)
You work for the TSA, don't you?
What scientific evidence, exactly, do you base your sexual maturity on bone structure alone? The pelvis plays an important role in natural childbirth - but the pelvis doesn't determine maturity level of the organs involved. One of the reasons mankind has developed Casearian sections is, not all women's pelvises develop in the same way, or at the same time. It's far more common for other factors to dictate a C-section, but the pelvis is a consideration.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 08 2018, @04:15AM (1 child)
By looking at bone structure, we at least measure something sort of legit. Age is stupid.
You may have noticed that some females fail to become women under this definition. Oh well, that sucks. You shouldn't endanger the life of a baby.
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Thursday March 08 2018, @07:29AM
So we all have to comply with your view of life, do we? Or is that based upon your own religious beliefs? Not all medical operations are voluntary, some things happen due to circumstances beyond an individual's control. However, your own personal views are not the way we should decide whether an offence has taken place or not.
(Score: -1, Troll) by ilPapa on Thursday March 08 2018, @05:42AM (6 children)
The medical term is pedophilia, you sick bastard.
"If they're old enough to bleed, they're old enough to butcher" might be fine in Kentucky or Alabama, but in civilized places it's more appropriate to set a standard than to have you performing pelvic exams on girl scouts to see if they're old enough to date.
You are still welcome on my lawn.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 08 2018, @05:56AM (5 children)
Only if the young person was prepubescent.
I have no idea why you're accusing the one you're replying to of being a "sick bastard". Knee-jerk reaction much?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 08 2018, @06:53AM (4 children)
You're absolutely right. If a girl has reached puberty [medicinenet.com], she's ripe for fucking! You know it brother. And we know when that is too. From the article I linked:
Ooh yeah! I want me some of that 10 year old white meat! And even better, some of that 9 year old dark meat!
Let's get this done! Age of consent should equal age of puberty. I want my 40+ year old cock in some tight little 9 year old pussy! Heck, all three holes should be used regularly, amirite?
That other guy is a sick bastard, not OP. Nine year-olds are clearly ready for pole.
Where's MikeeUSA when you need him?
(Score: 2, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 08 2018, @07:08AM (1 child)
Muhammed married a 6-year-old girl. Since he was the perfect man, you are encouraged to do likewise.
It is in fact common in Yemen.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 08 2018, @02:56PM
This is historical fact, although some claim the girl was 7 years old (she is described as still playing with dolls when the marriage occurred).
Some people, up to a billion perhaps, see this person as being the epitome of humankind.
This practice occurs today in Yemen frequently. There are pictures of men with their young girl child wife standing next to them. Girls still die by childbirth due to their age and lack of development. Girls are dying from penile penetration.
How is this a troll?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 08 2018, @07:33PM (1 child)
Maybe you should look into the context of what you're replying to instead of knee-jerking. A pedophile is someone who is sexually attracted to prepubescent children. That is a fact. I said nothing about people being ripe for fucking as soon as they hit puberty; that is an entirely different matter from medical definitions.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 08 2018, @07:52PM
What conclusion should be drawn from your original statement other than any wet hole that's hit puberty is ripe for cock?
Which is the truth anyway. Besides, they're not really people. Just holes for a man's pleasure and a vessel to birth his children. They have no other use.*
You're a hypocritical piece of shit who doesn't have the balls to take what's yours.
*Somebody needs to pick up the slack for MikeeeUSA.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 08 2018, @09:03AM (2 children)
Because fixed years are easily defined. I just hope
they have something in place so that 15 year olds don't
get punished for being with a 14 year old. In other words, if
one party is below the age of consent there ought to be some
leeway if they're close-in-age. Young people shouldn't have their
lives ruined over something like that.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday March 08 2018, @12:27PM
Common sense is really too much to ask of lawmakers and judges.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 09 2018, @03:15PM
Right, only old people should have their lives ruined by government overreach.
(Score: 2) by driverless on Thursday March 08 2018, @11:41AM (3 children)
Wouldn't a far better measure for younger people be the age difference? If you look at the cases that triggered this, it was a 30 year old guy and an 11 year old girl (ugh), but what if it's a 15 year old guy and a 14 year old girl? A number of countries take this into account, unfortunately the BBC story only reports absolute ages and not age differences. If you're using an absolute you may as well choose a height of consent or a weight of consent for all the accuracy you'll get, it's just an arbitrary line in the sand. On the day of your birthday, because some law says so, one minute before you're completely unaware that sex even exists, then a minute later you're completely sexually mature.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Thursday March 08 2018, @04:42PM (2 children)
I mean, it's a lot easier to verify somebody's age than their height or weight on the street: just check their ID (doesn't the government basically require everybody to have *some* form these days?). Comparing ages on your IDs would work.
But from an idealistic standpoint, yeah I kinda agree with you. A set age is a pragmatic solution because how do you really measure mental maturity, which is the main thing we're worried about, right?
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 08 2018, @05:20PM (1 child)
Yeesh! Gives a whole new meaning to "Papieren, bitte".
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Thursday March 08 2018, @08:09PM
I'm not in favor of it but if it's already a thing you might as well use it.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 3, Interesting) by VLM on Thursday March 08 2018, @02:54AM (38 children)
Its interesting how in the old days the age of sex was approximately the age of successfully forming and raising a family, and now those ages are diverging at an increasing rate.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday March 08 2018, @03:00AM (8 children)
Indeed. My father had a job and an apartment of his own at thirteen. And still managed to graduate highschool.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by coolgopher on Thursday March 08 2018, @03:11AM (3 children)
Honestly, these days it feels like we're over-schooling and under-educating.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday March 08 2018, @03:42AM (2 children)
That ain't no shit. I'd highly recommend anyone not planning on being a doctor, chemist, engineer, or the like drop out of school as soon as they're legally allowed to, get their GED just for the sake of having it, and either get a job or go to trade school. They're not going to learn anything useful in highschool past their freshman year that they can't learn online at their convenience.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 08 2018, @06:00AM (1 child)
Forget the GED and call yourself an autodidact, since that's what you'd be anyway. The standards of our school system are pathetic to the point where a trained monkey could almost get a GED and high school diploma, and they always were pathetic. There were no 'good old days' for our schooling system. As such, anyone requiring such worthless pieces of paper isn't worth working for in the first place.
(Score: 4, Touché) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday March 08 2018, @12:03PM
Depends on your perspective. We used to teach Greek and Latin in public schools. Today we're lucky if they can speak English passably and know better than to eat laundry detergent.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 08 2018, @11:19AM (1 child)
This explains so much
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday March 08 2018, @12:25PM
It certainly should. Unfortunately not everyone grows up with a good role model handy. Which is part of why I am so often found spreading the lessons imparted to me. Nobody should have to go through life unable to make it on their own and thinking the world owes them something because of ignorance.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Funny) by driverless on Thursday March 08 2018, @11:43AM (1 child)
Luxury! At thirteen my father lived in a brown paper bag in a septic tank. He used to have to get up at six o'clock in the morning, clean the bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down at mill for fourteen hours a day week in-week out, and never even saw a highschool.
(Score: 1) by infodragon on Thursday March 08 2018, @01:52PM
I used to watch him walking to that mill in 5 feet of snow up hill both ways while I was sitting in my gold gilded mansion^H^H^H^H^H^H^H house eating soup out of my silver spoon! Poor sap, he should work harder and pull himself out of that misery just like my father's father did!
Don't settle for shampoo, demand real poo!
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday March 08 2018, @03:05AM (25 children)
Given that sexual maturity age hasn't modified dramatically (evolution is not that fast), I'd look into why the age of successfully raising a family diverged from the first.
Any hunches?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 08 2018, @03:27AM (10 children)
It used to be that a boy would get a job at a young age. This would provide experience. By perhaps age 13, give or take a few years, the boy had decent employment experience.
There is a minimum age now, 14 if I remember right. Nearly-full employment freedom doesn't come until age 18. (leaving out selling alcohol)
Assuming the age requirement is met, the boy still must deal with competition and overcome the minimum wage. That minimum wage means that most employers will not be willing to hire a boy; he has been made more expensive than he is worth. His lack of experience will mean he has little chance to get experience.
We stick the typical boy with college debt. This makes him less appealing and less able as a husband and provider and father.
We killed wages with oversupply. There are women in the workforce, illegal aliens running around, and even outsourcing. The boy needs the experience, but he can't offer to work below the minimum wage. Once there are adults at minimum wage, he has no chance.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 08 2018, @05:20AM (9 children)
There. FTFY.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Thursday March 08 2018, @04:37PM (8 children)
What is this, pretentious word day? What the heck are you talking about?
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by NotSanguine on Thursday March 08 2018, @04:59PM (7 children)
Why didn't you quote from the section actually linked?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopsony#Static_monopsony_in_a_labor_market [wikipedia.org]
Maybe because you're just trying to distract from the issue?
Being deliberately obtuse, I see. Good for you! I imagine that makes it easier to cling to your delusions.
More detail here:
https://eh.net/encyclopedia/monopsony-in-american-labor-markets/ [eh.net]
And here:
http://equitablegrowth.org/equitablog/monopsony-market-power-labor-market/ [equitablegrowth.org] which gives an example to which many on SN can relate (sorry, not cars):
What's more, wages are also held down (even in low-skill jobs like factory and fast food workers [nytimes.com]) through Non-compete clauses in employment contracts [nationalreview.com]:
Note that the links above are from both the NY Times and National Review -- so we're seeing the same conclusions from (funny about how facts can do that) all "sides".
I assume you won't bother to reply as you really don't have anything worthwhile to say.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Thursday March 08 2018, @05:30PM (6 children)
Jesus H. Christ you people are getting touchy about stuff. I forgot there was a subsection linked. But sure, assume I'm arguing in bad faith.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Thursday March 08 2018, @05:39PM (4 children)
And I quoted what I did because the subsection was of a term I've never heard anyone use before in my life, so thought it would be useful to figure out what the heck it meant before reading a subapplication of it.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by NotSanguine on Thursday March 08 2018, @05:57PM (3 children)
Fair enough. But you didn't really figure out what was being talked about did you?
All you did was do some hand-waving rather than pick up the (relatively simple) concept and make a reasoned argument.
If you were unwilling or unable to make a reasoned argument, why dismiss it with:
And when it was explained to you, you still refuse to make any sort of argument *and* mod me down for explaining it.
Is that how it is with you? If you can't muster an actual argument, you just respond angrily and mod others down to make yourself feel better?
Not that I really care about the downmod, but apparently you do. Why is that? Does it make you feel powerful? More in control? If so, please go ahead and mod this down too, as I want you to be happy.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Thursday March 08 2018, @08:06PM (1 child)
No, I modded you down because you called me a bunch of names and insulted me.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Thursday March 08 2018, @11:23PM
For the record (please go back and confirm it) I didn't "call you names."
I suggested that you were being "deliberately obtuse." While that's unflattering, it's not name calling. Perhaps I made an incorrect assumption, but I drew a reasonable conclusion based upon your response.
I also suggested that you were deluded. Again, that's not name calling, that's a judgement about your mental state. Whether it's correct or not (which I suspect is a matter of some debate in the medical community, but I digress), is another matter. But again, that's not calling you names.
I also made an assumption that you didn't have anything worthwhile to say on this subject. Again, that's not calling you names. In fact, it appears (at least so far) that I was correct in that assumption.
Apparently, you were insulted by what I said. That's the first reasonable thing you've said in this entire exchange. I guess we're making progress. Hooray!
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 08 2018, @08:18PM
Don't worry - I'll mod you down so whats-his-face doesn't have to bother. It'll make me happy!
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Thursday March 08 2018, @06:02PM
Who is this "you people"? If you don't like what *I* have to say, then that's me. I don't belong to some amorphous group. I speak *my* mind and don't parrot the broad brush "talking points" of others.
Okay. I believe you. You weren't being deliberately obtuse. Was there anything confusing or difficult to understand about my explanation of labor monopsony or the language of the articles I linked?
Do you have any questions or disagreement about the point being made, or are you just not interested enough to find out? If the former, let's discuss! If the latter, why respond at all?
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by dry on Thursday March 08 2018, @05:25AM (10 children)
Evolution doesn't happen that fast, but changes in diet do. There's also evidence of certain food additives having hormone like qualities. The age of maturity has lowered, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty#Historical_shift [wikipedia.org] This one mentions stress as a cause as well https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2465479/ [nih.gov]. Lots of evidence that the age of puberty is dropping, though there has always been out-layers, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_youngest_birth_mothers [wikipedia.org].
Meanwhile, we've invented this phase of life called childhood, not long ago a 5 year old was considered a small adult, with all the responsibilities that went with that. After working for 10+ years, getting married at 15+ was a lot different then today where childhood is constantly being extended to keep the labour force balanced against automation, a trend that started around the turn of the 20th century when automation meant less resistance to child labour laws.
(Score: 3, Informative) by c0lo on Thursday March 08 2018, @05:37AM (4 children)
Yes, but not by that much as the "age of successfully raising a family" contributed to the divergence.
It is not unusual to find "kids" living with the parents at 30 years of age [www.cbc.ca]. This was 2014:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Informative) by dry on Thursday March 08 2018, @06:25AM (3 children)
Besides how childhood keeps getting extended, there's simple economics, young people can't afford to move out anymore. I live 50 miles out of town, the vacancy rate is well below 1%, the median price of a house is $980,000 with the average being somewhat lower. It just gets more expensive towards town where the better jobs are. Kids can't afford to move out anymore.
When I left home, you could rent an adequate apartment, eat not bad and save some money, all while working at minimum wage. Now, not so much, especially with the landlords being able to be very picky, the construction boom that involves tearing down the cheap housing to build something more profitable and the supposed non-existent inflation raising prices on the necessities.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 08 2018, @07:13AM
These rules drive prices up. We're trying to live beyond our means.
We're competing with people who live in cages (East Asia), huts (Africa and Southeast Asia), caves (western China and South Asia), etc.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday March 08 2018, @12:10PM (1 child)
If you get away from the insanely crowded major cities, housing prices drop literally an entire order of magnitude from that. The guy who owns the house I'm currently renting wants in the neighborhood of $70K for it. For a (he says four, I say three) bedroom with a double lot in the nicer part of town.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by dry on Thursday March 08 2018, @04:42PM
Here, you have to get at least a hundred miles out of the city, which basically puts you in mountains. Prices are high over most of the Province (BC).
(Score: 1, Troll) by ilPapa on Thursday March 08 2018, @05:45AM (2 children)
Yes, according to the most authoritative scientific sources on the web, eating soy can make you less masculine. Fortunately, there's a solution:
http://www.infowarsshop.com/Super-Male-Vitality-_p_1227.html [infowarsshop.com]
You are still welcome on my lawn.
(Score: 2) by dry on Thursday March 08 2018, @06:11AM (1 child)
I was thinking of certain plastics that have properties similar to estrogen.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 08 2018, @01:03PM
Let us provide a link hoping at least one person would click it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenoestrogen [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 2) by VLM on Thursday March 08 2018, @02:23PM
"teen" and "retired" are also relatively recent western inventions. They tried to launch "tween" but it failed.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 08 2018, @06:22PM
That list of young mothers is horrifying. So many fucked up people in this world.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 08 2018, @09:42PM (2 children)
https://ethiopia.limbo13.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/menarche-chart-thumb1.jpg [limbo13.com] It hasn't? Looks pretty dramatic to me. If you think this kind of thing only depends on genes you are ill-informed.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 08 2018, @09:59PM
For fun, plot age of consent trends on the same chart
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday March 08 2018, @11:00PM
Mate, keeping into account that from 2014 the number of 'kids' In the 18 to 30 you bracket who are still living with the parents surpassed the ones living independently (the ones able to sustain a family) in US, the evolution would have to push the puberty age up to immediately after birth to dramatically contribute to the divergence.
Wake me up when it happens.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 08 2018, @05:39AM
(Score: 3, Interesting) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Thursday March 08 2018, @04:41PM (1 child)
then married in California. They homesteader some land
He was 17, she 14
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 2) by VLM on Friday March 09 2018, @03:46PM
Farming is a special exception because farming is a skilled trade although few people know that. So people ignorant of the situation who would correctly look at a 17 year Electricans or Carpenters apprenticeship as something weird and screwed up, will look at a 17 year Farming apprenticeship as ridiculously under qualified for the job, which is not the case.
(Score: 1) by cocaine overdose on Thursday March 08 2018, @03:00AM (4 children)
France, the illuminated and wise nation that it has become, joins Germany in allowing sexual intercourse to occur between minors (15 and 14 respectively) and those over 21. In other news, the demand chain of sex tourism has shifted, as ephebophiles move away from the jungle nip nation states, to more ethno-relateable geographies. On a more somber note, the last bastion of free intercourse has joined the ranks of the New Prude Order, with this instantiation of consent law. A moment of silence was observed by what is left of the old guard for freedom of sex. NAMBLA was reached out to, but did not comment.
And your humble reporter is very likely on a list now after searching the correct way to spell "ephepobphiles," "ages of consent," "countries with no ages of consent," "cheese pizza with extra mozzarella," and "pedophile communities and organizations."
(Score: 3, Funny) by takyon on Thursday March 08 2018, @03:39AM
https://www.ixquick.com/do/search?query=ephepobphiles&cat=web&pl=chrome&language=english [ixquick.com]
Sheeeeeit, I'm on the list.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Thursday March 08 2018, @06:01AM
Yeah, that cheese pizza search got him into the list of Mafia member suspects. ;-)
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 08 2018, @07:02AM
Yeah, you're on a list, all right!
Cheese pizza? You were a regular at Comet Ping Pong weren't you, you sick pup.
Once our great leader disbands the disloyal FBI, he can finally get to the bottom of the child sex-trafficking ring and put that murderous bitch [wnd.com] and her cronies (including you!) away for a long, long, time!
I've got a bullet with your name on it, you child-molesting sack of crap!
#MAGA
(Score: 2) by VLM on Friday March 09 2018, @03:48PM
D E M O C R A T I C (space) P A R T Y
It pretty much spells like it sounds.