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The Billionaire Space Race Is Making Life Difficult for Airlines
On Feb. 6, Elon Musk's SpaceX launched its largest rocket into the blue Florida sky. Onboard was "Starman," a dummy strapped into the billionaire's cherry red Tesla roadster. Minutes later, fans cheered as Musk topped himself by nailing a simultaneous landing of the Falcon Heavy's boosters. It was arguably a turning point for the commercial space age.
Airlines were somewhat less thrilled. On that day, 563 flights were delayed and 62 extra miles added to flights in the southeast region of the U.S., according to Federal Aviation Administration data released Tuesday by the Air Line Pilots Association, or ALPA.
America's airspace is a finite resource, and the growth of commercial launches has U.S. airlines worried. Whenever Musk or one of his rivals sends up a spacecraft, the carriers which operate closer to the ground must avoid large swaths of territory and incur sizable expenses.
Most of the commercial activity to date has been focused on Cape Canaveral, the Air Force post on Florida's Atlantic coast, where Musk's Space Exploration Technologies Corp. and Jeff Bezos's Blue Origin LLC base their stellar operations. It is one of 22 active U.S. launch sites, and a number of other locales—including Brownsville, Texas; Watkins, Colorado; and Camden County, Georgia—are pursuing new spaceport ventures to capitalize on commercial space activity.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Sunday July 01 2018, @04:52AM (3 children)
Somehow, I just can't work up a good damn to give about the airline's difficulties in regards to space flight.
(Score: 2) by lentilla on Sunday July 01 2018, @05:44AM
Agree. Then there's that thing about "sharing": just because I happen to have shared my toys (airspace) with you for the last century without question, and just now I happen to want to use them myself occasionally... then there really is little to complain about.
(Score: 2) by Revek on Sunday July 01 2018, @06:54AM
Agreed, my heart pumps piss for them.
This page was generated by a Swarm of Roaming Elephants
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 01 2018, @06:37PM
i came here to spew some bile about the airline industry too. they want to be suck up to the tyrants and now act surprised about being told what to do. die already.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 01 2018, @05:00AM (10 children)
What would be the odds of a collision if airspace wasn't closed? Compared to meteorites hitting a plane, are rockets a bigger or smaller risk?
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Sunday July 01 2018, @05:34AM (9 children)
That's a pretty good question, I think. And, the answer probably depends on how much room NASA and friends demands for it's closed air space. If the airspace were completely unrestricted, and butt-tons of private craft were orbiting the launch site, trying to get pictures, the risk would be pretty high. You would probably be running about the same risk as driving coast to coast in your personal car.
If a very narrow corridor were closed, and still allowing aircraft to get close enough for photos with quality cameras, the risk would be a little lower - probably somewhere close to the risk of being struck by lightning, at sea level in highly populated areas.
Closing a huge area to air traffic, as they do now, should bring the risk of collision to just about zero. Of course, it's still not zero. If a whole bunch of crazy impossible stuff happens, the rocket still might go off course, and home on an airliner trying to land at Tampa. Or Houston, or maybe even Moscow. Stuff does happen, right?
(Score: 2, Informative) by anubi on Sunday July 01 2018, @07:25AM (8 children)
We trounce on Disney over all this copyright stuff... did you know they claim the air over their parks too, to the level of being a national defense zone?
No-Fly Zones [latimes.com].
So, they channel the air traffic to John Wayne Airport over everyone else's house. And all the stadium helicopters. Can't fly over Disney.
Its illegal to divert stormwater onto someone else's property.... but apparently not air traffic.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2, Interesting) by anubi on Sunday July 01 2018, @07:39AM (3 children)
Whoops... hit submit instead of preview and I wasn't done...
I did want to point out though that by having their airspace enforced as a no-fly zone, Disney did succeed in ridding our airspace of a major annoyance that was 100X worse than anything JWA passed over us... it was that constant barrage of small aircraft flying at low altitude towing advertising banners. Those things were extremely noisy, as they had seemed to tune the plane engines to emit the most possible noise because they wanted people to look up to see the ad. It was a major annoyance to live anywhere near Disneyland - as these companies took to circling the environs all day towing their ads. Like having a neighbor who mows his lawn all day, every day.
Fussing about all the noise was fruitless. They would say "We are a business! We sell our services to people who paid to have you annoyed. If you don't like it, buy your own Law!".
This to me is a good example of when a representative form of government fails. The one who benefits only has to bribe the law maker, not the people he is inconveniencing. I would think a public vote on allowing such a public nuisance to continue should be a demandable item by the public.
But Disney did put a stop to it.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2) by bradley13 on Sunday July 01 2018, @08:13AM (2 children)
Aircraft noise...don't get me started. There's some group that likes to fly old-fashioned acrobatic planes. It comes and it goes, but when they are having a practice day, it is so noisy that you have close all the windows, and you still can't concentrate worth a damn.
Switzerland even has a rule that you cannot do noisy things on Sundays. Today is Sunday, and it is blessedly peaceful out there. Today, anyway, but these nitwits often also practice on Sundays. I wrote to the responsible air traffic office, and they wrote back that aircraft are exempt from noise regulations. And I should please be supportive of this lovely and unusual hobby.
WTF? I can't run my chainsaw on a Sunday, which might be audible to 20 or even 50 people in the immediate neighborhood. That's actually fine, I have no problem with that. You have no idea how nice it is to have a quiet day. Right now I can't hear anything but birds and the occasional car driving by. But next Sunday, likely as not someone will fly acrobatics, easily audible to - back of the envelope - 50,000 to 100,000 people? I want a flak cannon.
/rant
Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
(Score: 1) by anubi on Sunday July 01 2018, @08:24AM
I think the problem is the people who own those hobby planes are rich enough to buy off the politicians.
This is one of the foibles I see in a representative form of government.
If their enjoyment also annoys another, the one who is being annoyed should be dealt with, not the politician, who does not have to personally accept the annoyment, but reaps the benefit of payment to commit someone else to tolerate it.
I believe it should be a citywide vote on it if a few people want to do something that annoys everyone else. It would sure make everyone whose enjoyment of something be respectful for those he is treading on.
I hate the fact that my concerns can be sold off by the whore representing me.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 3, Informative) by morpheus on Sunday July 01 2018, @12:46PM
If they are flying something like T-6 Texans: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-6_Texan [wikipedia.org] it can indeed get quite noisy. The best way to handle this is to actually talk to the people in the group. The guys flying these planes are usually pretty nice and do not want to give a bad impression about aviation to the community. They are likely flying over the airport in what is known as an 'aerobatic box' since the regulations prohibit them from doing aerobatics over densely populated areas (and the FAA stated that any subdivision counts as such) but the noise carries. The office responsible for handling this (and issuing the box warning or NOTAM) is not the air traffic control (the local ARTCC I presume) but the district FAA office, or FSDO. They may put some restrictions on the box issuance taking the noise considerations into account if the locals make good arguments (and quiet Sundays sure sounds like one).
On the other hand, this is a lovely and unusual hobby and private aviation in the US is already under a lot of restrictions these days. Not all of these guys are rich assholes (not even a majority) so the best way to handle this is to go to the local airport and explain your concerns to them. I am sure they will be understanding. If not you can go the FSDO route.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 01 2018, @08:04AM (3 children)
Nevar forgget 911 #MAGA
(Score: 1) by anubi on Sunday July 01 2018, @08:27AM (2 children)
Absolutely right. It made our neighborhood peaceful again.
I accidentally submitted the top post before I had edited it properly... I did not come off as I had intended to - a poorly executed thing I did.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 01 2018, @08:31AM (1 child)
I read both comments before I commented. I'm not impressed with Disney or post-9/!! America
(Score: 1) by anubi on Sunday July 01 2018, @09:38AM
Usually I am not impressed with Disney, mostly because of their exercise of their financial power to buy off politicians to usurp existing copyright and patent law.
My belief is that the law as it was is quite reasonable. And as far as their creations go, they can have them as long as they support them as far as I am concerned. But I am miffed that my Congressmen did not insist on provisions concerning making abandonware public along with copyright extension. Disney owns Mickey Mouse until Hell freezes over as far as I am concerned, but when I see corporations send "end of support" notifications, to me that should be a clear flag that the thing no longer supported is now public.
As much as Disney is on my shitlist, I did like it that they did put a stop to this airplane annoyance, even though I am quite aware it was their business that attracted all these "horseflies" in the first place, and their ban on them certainly was not just to benefit me, rather I was just one who benefitted from their own battle with shooing the "horseflies" out of their park. That constant overhead drone of noisy aircraft engines was annoying the crap out of everybody.
Almost as if some kid took to running a running lawnmower up and down the local shopping mall to get attention to a banner he was dragging, while he tells everyone "I'm a Business! I have a Right to run my lawnmower in here! If you don't like it, tough!!", and "worked with" lawmakers to back up his business model.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 01 2018, @05:17AM
stfu.
You know, people used to not care about this stuff and accepted minor inconveniences as facts of life. Everyone today seems to need to prove their royalty by the slightest trifle. The most offended or inconvenienced person wins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 01 2018, @05:38AM (9 children)
How often did they send up rockets during the glory days of NASA in the sixties and early seventies? I can’t imagine it was less than what SpaceX and Blue Origin do today. On July 16, 1969 did the airlines whine about how Apollo 11 delayed their flights?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 01 2018, @06:50AM (6 children)
Back in the day, Americans weren't so risk-adverse. The closed airspace was likely much smaller.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 01 2018, @11:29AM (4 children)
Wrong. There was a ton of opposition: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/09/moondoggle-the-forgotten-opposition-to-the-apollo-program/262254/ [theatlantic.com]
The space program was just another pork dispensary. No scientific or military gains were achieved during its pursuit or as a result from it. It was Keneddy's method to stop the Vietnam war while keeping the money flowing to Lockheed Martin and co. If you carefully go through every industrial or technological development associated with the space program, you'll be disappointed to discover they were all misattributed deliberately by the media and politicians to justify the pork.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 01 2018, @12:54PM (2 children)
What about Tang and Velcro (the products, not the rap group)?
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Sunday July 01 2018, @01:07PM
They close air corridors too? (grin)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 01 2018, @09:55PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_(drink) [wikipedia.org]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hook-and-loop_fastener [wikipedia.org]
Nothing means nothing. I shit you not, anything and everything you've been told was thanks to the space program is absolute and total bullshit. Look it up. Teflon... Lasers... Microwave... Not a god damn thing. Hell, even that idiotic space pen came from a third party that just had a random idea on creating a more resilient pen and figured it will work in space so they contacted NASA: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-nasa-spen/ [scientificamerican.com]
And yes, the punch line still holds. The Russians did in did just ended up using pencils.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday July 01 2018, @10:14PM
380 kg of lunar rock was retrieved from those missions. I won't claim it's worth ~120-150 billion USD in today's dollars though.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 01 2018, @03:11PM
I doubt it is currently an issue. Just people looking for something to complain about.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by martyb on Sunday July 01 2018, @11:17AM (1 child)
Another way to look at it is how much commercial aviation is there, now, compared to back then? I would hazard a guess that there are far more flights, now. More flights would lead to more interrupted flight plans, for any given rocket launch.
Relatedly, besides a no-fly zone, launches cause restrictions on watercraft, too. The cruise industry is not especially happy that they have to change routes, or loiter offshore waiting. Add in launch delays that might happen within a launch window... yeah, that could be a bother, too.
Lastly, I suspect the issue is not just whether or not an errant rocket might actually hit a craft (in the air or on the water), but if the rocket undergoes RUD [wiktionary.org], one would like to keep all vessels safe from any possible explosive debris!
Wit is intellect, dancing.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 01 2018, @12:42PM
The population of florida was ~5 million in 1969. It is ~21 million today. Also air travel is MUCH more safe and MUCH cheaper. So it is probably pretty crowded around there. So that many flights got delayed/shunted is not surprising. It sounds like a large number but if you look at total flights you may find the % is much smaller than the numbers look.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Sunday July 01 2018, @11:41AM
Canaveral was a great place to launch wrt east-bound climbout over the ocean, decent distance from developed land, etc. However, especially early morning through mid-day, there's a ton of commercial aircraft that want to use the airspace over Canaveral. [youtu.be] At least they're not blocked from it 24-7 like the military training airspaces.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 3, Informative) by Codesmith on Sunday July 01 2018, @11:58AM
So, last year my boss flew down to the Domincan Republic for a holiday, and being a bit of an aviation nerd, I pulled up a flight tracker to watch his flight. Starting from the Toronto, Canada, the routing seemed to get quite arbitrary at the oceanic overwate portion of the flight. Looking up the flight routes via the (https://skyvector.com/ [skyvector.com]) SkyVector Enroute charts for the airways used, I was suprised by how much of the US coastline is blocked off for direct flights in or out.
Looking at Cape Canaveral, there is one in/out route just north of the Cape, and the primary North-South over ocean reoutes are within a few hundred nautical miles of the coast. All of these would be affected by even a moderately sized orbital launch safety footprint. If a flight wants to vertor inland to go around west of Cape Canaveral, they would have to plan that from the beginning, or route inland at Charleston (from the North) or Plam Beach (from the south).
With the advent of GPS supported navigation, I would have expected much more flexibility in flight routes, but it appears that the offshore Restricted Airspace around the United States places large constraints on that. Perhaps adjusting some of these restirctions could alleviate some of the issues.
Pro utilitate hominum.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 01 2018, @01:54PM (3 children)
That's is 10 seconds of cruise total for the whole sector. Or approximately the equivolent of a the yoke being bumbed while getting up from the pilots seat to go take a piss, on one aircraft, during the whole measurement period. And as far as the delays go, those airports delay every day when the sun is shining and there are no mechanical delays. Trying to pin that on Elon Musk says more about you than it does about SpaceX.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday July 01 2018, @10:22PM
That's a good point. It's not just a matter of delays. It's the heavy loading of airports, air corridors, and air traffic systems. Even a small disruption can cause a lot of problems when things are barely marginal.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Monday July 02 2018, @06:55AM (1 child)
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 02 2018, @01:57PM
Correction, 10 minutes. But the point still stands. Bitching about 10 minutes an an air sector that flys millions of passenger seat miles per year is rediculous. Second, takeoff delays often happen because arrival aiports are backed up. So to suggest that Cape Canaveral has anything to do with it, is just silly. More likely the ORL delays reflect problems in CHI or DUL.