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Opinion: Now would be the time for Apple to buy Tesla, and kick Musk out of the driver's seat
Elon Musk has put an end to his idea to take Tesla private, but still has a tough road ahead to meet profitability and production projections, especially as Tesla handles expected investigations and lawsuits stemming from Musk's ridiculous "funding secured" misadventure. Apple, meanwhile, has billions in cash to burn, manufacturing prowess, obvious interests in entering the car market and finding new form factors beyond the smartphone — and the pull to tell Musk his services are no longer needed.
[...] Apple does have a lot more money than Tesla, which is running out of cash fast. It also has a chief executive in Tim Cook who knows about dealing with supply chains, mass manufacturing and all the other processes that sound easy when Musk describes them but are nearly impossible when Tesla attempts to perform them.
[...] On Monday, Loup Ventures analyst Gene Munster played down the theories that Apple might attempt some sort of deal, saying that if Tesla becomes profitable, the notion is just a fairy tale. "If we're wrong, and Tesla fails to reach profitability in the next year, Apple gains the upper hand and becomes the most likely investor or buyer," Munster wrote in a blog post.
[...] Apple knows a little something about building a strong profit margin with a premium product sold through its own retail outlets, and could handle many of the other issues that will continue to beset Musk and Tesla. In his now legendary tearful interview with the New York Times, Musk admitted that Tesla has sought another executive to handle operations, and even said that "anyone who can do a better job" could have the CEO role.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday August 28 2018, @04:32PM (12 children)
Who would have guessed that the business world is so full of drama? How soon til we see 'Tesla' on Broadway?
(Score: 2) by suburbanitemediocrity on Tuesday August 28 2018, @05:00PM (11 children)
I said ten years ago that electric cars would not be viable (as a business) until Apple started making them.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Freeman on Tuesday August 28 2018, @05:05PM (1 child)
And you may yet be proven wrong. Apple hasn't really bought into Electric cars, yet. At this point Electric Cars seem to be poised to become the next thing in Automobiles, with or without Apple.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 2) by suburbanitemediocrity on Tuesday August 28 2018, @10:40PM
It was pretty far out there ten years ago. I don't think cars were even on Apple's radar.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 28 2018, @05:31PM (5 children)
They already are viable, what kind of nonsense talk is this? Ten years ago they were viable, just a small market. There have been small shops converting cars to electric for longer than the Nissan Leaf was being produced.
I guess you're trying to say it isn't an extremely viable business until the mega-corps want to cash in?
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 28 2018, @06:30PM (3 children)
They were viable when I was a kid several decades ago, they were just really expensive and had rather poor range. But, for in town they weren't bad as long as you had someplace to park them that had a power outlet.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 28 2018, @06:52PM (1 child)
I was going to mention that but they were still a niche market with no real manufacturer outside dinky non-cars for the most part. Mostly electric conversions. I think the Leaf was the first sign of electric becoming a viable market.
(Score: 3, Informative) by suburbanitemediocrity on Tuesday August 28 2018, @10:52PM
Go to the retirement community of Sun City, AZ. You'll probably see more electric golf carts than gasoline powered cars. About 20 years ago, AZ was giving some large incentive for electric cars, golf carts qualified and so a lot of people got free golf carts. A friend's dad got a really nice one before the state cancelled the program but not before blowing ~$5B.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssLdEfn9q9Q [youtube.com]
(Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Wednesday August 29 2018, @02:49AM
> They were viable when I was a kid several decades ago
The weak link is the power storage. All kinds of battery tech (lithium ion, NiCd, NiMH, lead, and aluminum, to name just a few), and fuel cells, direct diesel electric drive (hybrid), flywheel, even compressed air have been investigated, and all fall short of the humble gas tank full of liquid hydrocarbons. They are all so much worse than the gas tank that even an electric motor system with over 90% efficiency at turning energy into motion cannot compete with a crappy 30% efficient combustion engine. It's not just energy storage, there's also the lengthy recharge times and a short lifespan. However, it's getting close. The battery doesn't have to be better than the gas tank, it only has to be about 1/3 as good to compete.
> really expensive ... poor range
Yes, batteries are the biggest expense in an electric car, and a major reason for short ranges. Half the range = half the batteries = much lower cost.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 29 2018, @04:24PM
People forget, in 1914 there were a large number of electric cars in NYC. They had 84 mile range +/-, and there were charging stations all over the city. Why didn't it take off further? It was advertised as a lady's car, and customized to look like a parlor, with fake flowers even hanging on the wall. It was clean, easy to start, and steered with a tiller handle instead of a wheel. It was shaped like a phonebooth. Jay Leno owns one, and even still has the original motor and battery, which both still function just fine. In fact he's said it's the only vehicle he owns that has never required any work done to it. In case you wondered, he does drive it as well as all of his other vehicles, quite regularly.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 28 2018, @06:14PM (1 child)
Why would Apple buy a car company? It's completely unrelated to anything they do, is a massive hassle that kills people if you fuck it up and requires massive infrastructure to get to the consumers. What's more, you can't sell customers a new one every year like they do with their current offerings.
Apple owning a car company makes precisely no sense at all.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by arslan on Tuesday August 28 2018, @10:53PM
But.. but... profit! Step 1. slap a touch bar on it, Step 2. call it iWheel, Step 3. profit!
But seriously. Why wouldn't they? If Tesla becomes dirt cheap, they absolutely should. A company as big as Apple should look at diversifying its portfolio. That means looking at other industries. Besides it isn't completely unrelated. They can pimp the car with iThings and hook it up to the App store by default and have access to songs and movies in the car. Make the compartments in the car a natural fit for all their iDevices, etc. You know growing their little walled garden and such.
(Score: 1) by easyTree on Wednesday August 29 2018, @12:09PM
Lots of cars already have rounded corners. Apple's input isn't needed.
(Score: 3, Funny) by c0lo on Tuesday August 28 2018, @04:38PM (4 children)
Progress - iPod, iPhone, IPad, iTesla? A bit down the road, maybe iCaterpillar? (still waiting for my P-5000 powered loader, it may come sooner that a Tesla car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Funny) by stretch611 on Wednesday August 29 2018, @02:04AM (3 children)
The iTesla... new model every year... guaranteed to slow down every year as well (to save the battery of course /s )
Now with 5 covid vaccine shots/boosters altering my DNA :P
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 29 2018, @11:02AM
Grey, gray, gold, and pink will be the only colors offered, each new model year's big selling point will be 4000 new emojis, and it will have to be charged through iTunes.
(Score: 1) by easyTree on Wednesday August 29 2018, @12:12PM
Only drives when you're not touching the steering wheel. Actually, Apple may be on to something here.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday August 29 2018, @01:12PM
The iTesla will only work if you are carrying an Apple iPhone, iPad, iMac or MacBook. Other systems need not apply.
Every performance optimization is a grate wait lifted from my shoulders.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by DannyB on Tuesday August 28 2018, @04:58PM (7 children)
Yeah. Apple also knows about walled gardens. Requiring special, expensive cables. And new cables to go with new hardware.
The newest OS is artificially limited to fairly recent hardware, thus artificially obsoleting hardware. And browsers are tied to a very current OS, again to artificially limit hardware. (That is the story I heard a few years ago.)
It all started when Apple obsoleted an entire generation of classic Macs. A many of them very expensive, in the neighborhood of $4,000 to $5,000 in late 1990s dollars. But Jobs trashed it all at the wave of his hand. And from that point on Apple became a very different company.
I remember when Apple was a great company. When I was a fanboy. When BYTE magazine wrote that the history of the microcomputer industry was an effort to keep up with Apple. When Apple did everything first, and the PC / Windows copies were a pale imitation. But no more.
Back to the point. Anything that Apple buys or controls is something that I consider to be bad news. When I hear Apple will produce a new TV series, I guess I will never be watching that because I won't buy the Apple hardware that it plays on. Etc.
IMO Apple buying Tesla would be the worst thing that could happen to Tesla. At least Tesla seems to have ignited interest in other brand producing electric vehicles.
Every performance optimization is a grate wait lifted from my shoulders.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 28 2018, @06:03PM (3 children)
Let's hope for your sake Apple develops a waaambulance soon.
Why not compare Android compatibility with older hardware to iOS compatibility - don't forget to include performance in your comparisons. And do the same for Windows vs MacOS.
Don't forget that older hardware - no matter who the manufacturer - doesn't stop working once the manufacturer stops supporting it with upgrades.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by DannyB on Tuesday August 28 2018, @06:30PM (2 children)
About Android vs iOS. I don't know about performance comparisons. I know that higher end phones have excellent hardware and performance. But Android phones come in quite a range of prices, performance levels, features, colors, styles, shapes, sizes, "ruggedized" models, etc. And from more than one manufacturer.
Apple's patent litigation made me quite disgusted. Its tactics. The substance of the patents themselves. Some of the arguments used. The shifting of suing whoever was the leading Android maker each year. That was when I went from fond memories of Apple to being disgusted.
I can't speak about modern Mac OS.
Every performance optimization is a grate wait lifted from my shoulders.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 28 2018, @07:45PM (1 child)
You're condemning Apple/iOS for not supporting hardware long enough, yet you offer no proof, nor any comparisons to Android. Clearly you don't like Apple, which is fine and dandy. But if you're going to cast aspersions you should at least back it up with something more than "there are too many models and colors of Android phones to say Android is better".
Just a tip: if you're going to claim size, shape and color are preventing you from saying "Manufacturer ABC supports new versions of Android for X years" then maybe you should make the same statement about the size, shape and colors of iPhones.
(Score: 2) by toddestan on Wednesday August 29 2018, @03:41AM
The problem with Android is that it's not very good either. It just manages to be slightly less worse than iOS with its walled garden, closed ecosystem, poor selection of devices, and way overpriced hardware. The entire mobile market is such crap I was actually disappointed when Microsoft exited it as it desperately needs another player, even it is Microsoft.
Perhaps you should go back and try to address the points brought up by original poster brought up about Apple's computers, which you completely ignored and dragged iOS/Android into the conversation instead.
(Score: 2, Informative) by easyTree on Wednesday August 29 2018, @12:15PM (2 children)
Let's not forget that to make an app for the iPhone, one must first buy into their desktop ecosystem. Ahaha wtf.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday August 29 2018, @01:18PM (1 child)
And PAY for the privilege. After you invest your development effort, then if Apple is in a good mood, it will honor you with the privilege of allowing your app into the app store. If your app doesn't become too successful, then Apple won't kick your app out and decide to build their own version of it.
You also must have Apple's blessing to even install in-development apps onto an iDevice as a developer.
With Android, the development tools are absolutely free. They run on all platforms (Linux, Windows, Mac). Multiple different development tools exist -- on the various platforms. Some of the development tools are pure open source. You don't need Google's or anybody's permission to develop, nor to install your app onto your devices as long as the device settings on the device give permission to install the app.
Every performance optimization is a grate wait lifted from my shoulders.
(Score: 1) by easyTree on Wednesday August 29 2018, @08:07PM
It's almost as if they don't want people developing their platform for them...
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Thexalon on Tuesday August 28 2018, @05:07PM (12 children)
Apple and Tesla are two different companies that do two different kinds of things. They don't share infrastructure, don't share skillsets (a.k.a. "core competencies"), don't share markets really, and aren't in the same industry. This would make about as much sense as General Motors buying Coca-Cola or vice versa, which neither company has even remotely contemplated for the same reason.
A much more likely scenario: Some well-heeled person or company who happens to hold Tesla stock is trying to fuel speculation that Apple would buy them out as an effort to pump the stock price before dumping it. Which may be illegal, but the SEC either isn't watching or doesn't care.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Tuesday August 28 2018, @05:13PM (8 children)
"Should Apple Buy X" articles are pretty common since Apple is sitting on a lot of money. It's not illegal to wonder "What If?".
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 4, Informative) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Tuesday August 28 2018, @05:24PM
If "Should Apple Buy X" articles are being planted by agents who want X's stock price to up that is quite illegal. And analysts who can make money or make others lose money with their opinions have a higher standard about what they can and cannot speculate about, again they can venture into illegal territory by causing a panic or a buy rush on something with no sound basis for having done so.
This sig for rent.
(Score: 4, Funny) by DannyB on Tuesday August 28 2018, @05:30PM
Felony questioning of the status quo.
Every performance optimization is a grate wait lifted from my shoulders.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 28 2018, @06:35PM (5 children)
No, just a waste of time. Apple buying the music or film industries would make at least some sense as they're related to markets that Apple is currently involved in.
This isn't like one of those things where they could have some plausible reason for expanding. Just look at what Apple does now and has done over the years, when they've expanded, it's been something that's at least tangentially related to what they were doing. Smartphones being the most extreme jump, but even there the smartphones are similar to iPods that they were already doing with cell capabilities.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Tuesday August 28 2018, @07:33PM (3 children)
Apple has been working on electric/autonomous cars for years, and has been hiring Tesla employees.
The only thing implausible is the price tag. They should just wait for Tesla to implode and then snatch it up, or just copy their ideas.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 28 2018, @11:24PM (2 children)
Not sure what ideas to copy:
What is left to copy? Assembly in a tent, by hand? Compare to big boys [youtube.com].
(Score: 2) by takyon on Tuesday August 28 2018, @11:35PM
Good point, heheh.
Maybe Apple should build their own battery factory. They can use them in electric cars, iPhones, iPads, etc.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 29 2018, @12:08AM
> Compare to big boys [youtube.com].
Watch the BMW video at 2x speed -- it's more impressive(grin) to see things fly around the factory, and only takes 18 minutes instead of 36...
https://hooktube.com/watch?v=M3HK34tcp54&app=desktop [hooktube.com] (allows changing playback speed)
Don't get bored with all the robots in the beginning -- first, look at all the special tooling and gripping tools required in addition to the robots. Then, when you get to the plastic assembly bits, notice that they are assembled by people.
(Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Wednesday August 29 2018, @04:11PM
Except that Apple's buying into music or film industries back in the early 1990s would have made no sense, either. By that logic they should never have gotten into music/TV/film media distribution, nor the hardware to play them, because they weren't doing it before.
I'm not seriously arguing they should jump in now, and I believe there are lots of reasons they shouldn't. But there have been rumors circulating for some years that they have been throwing some R&D at electric cars, even though MacRumors now says those efforts aren't going on. If true (and that's an if) then they've got even more incentive than when they got into the music business because they've at least done some exploratory work in the area. Maybe what didn't make sense to do cold R&D on would make sense to acquire.
Dunno. All Lawn knows is that Lawn is only grass in the game of life.
This sig for rent.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 28 2018, @06:05PM
Well, except for Project Titan [wikipedia.org].
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 28 2018, @08:36PM
They both sell computers and software just on different platforms
(Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Wednesday August 29 2018, @03:10AM
Funny you should mention Coca-Cola. Students of recent history no doubt recall former Apple CEO Sculley, who was recruited from Pepsi. And that Apple didn't do all that well under Sculley.
Anyway, this whole idea smacks of wealth worship, of the slapdash reasoning that because Apple is such a wealthy company, and in the tech sector, Apple and Apple's leaders just have to be good at everything.
There certainly are plenty of hustlers perfectly willing to take advantage of people's faulty reasoning. Pump and dump, you know.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday August 28 2018, @05:22PM (2 children)
s/When //
You're welcome.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Informative) by maxwell demon on Tuesday August 28 2018, @05:36PM
“Never” is a valid answer to the question “when”.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 1) by nitehawk214 on Tuesday August 28 2018, @10:23PM
s/When/Why/
"Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
(Score: 3, Insightful) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Tuesday August 28 2018, @05:28PM (3 children)
When Apple feels the price they would pay for Tesla would make it a profitable investment and give the returns that Apple is looking for in the time frame they want. Or if they need a massive tax loss and believe it will fail but can allow it to play out with best effort the whole way.
What's with the investment 101 questions?
Oh.... it was rhetorical to get people talking about Apple and Tesla. OK. Got better things to be interested in.
This sig for rent.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 28 2018, @06:56PM
If they're interested, they'd be foolish to buy before Tesla goes bankrupt and gets that debt expunged.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 28 2018, @08:37PM
This.
Current inflated Tesla stock price values their tiny business at about the same price at General Motors (it was higher earlier this year). If Apple wanted a car company, why not buy one that is profitable, knows how to make cars in volume (including electric Bolt and Volt), has huge presence in China already in place, and, owns masses of real estate and factories. In other words, an investment, vs. some speculation.
New rumor -- Apple considering buying GM, making sure GM cars only interface to Apple products...worldwide.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 28 2018, @10:09PM
People used to post this about IBM, then MS, now Apple. They will do it again with the next big company.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 28 2018, @08:30PM
Seems like they already have.
(Score: 5, Informative) by Absolutely.Geek on Tuesday August 28 2018, @11:57PM
The fundamental differences between the companies mean that it would never work.
Tesla: anyone can use our patents for free and we wont sue you.
Apple: we spent years stealing other peoples ideas; but if you dare copy our rounded rectangle we we do everything in our power to destroy you and you rcompany.
Tesla: we are trying to transition the world away from damaging fossil fuels; we make our cars better over time by updating the software in them for as long as possible
Apple: we have a planned time frame to obsolete the hardware we sell; we optimize this to the buying cycles of the consumers we sell to
Tesla: we treat our US workers like shit; but they can just quit.
Apple: we treat our Chinese workers like slaves and put up suicide netting to prevent even the sweet escape of death.
Tesla: we fucked up and made some batteries that don't work correctly; we replace them under warranty with no questions asked.
Apple: we fucked up and designed a (antenna, bendy phone, keyboard that is killed by a single grain of sand) your warranty means nothing to us as we deny there is an issue for as long as possible. You will just buy our next shiny trinket anyway.
Don't trust the police or the government - Shihad: My mind's sedate.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday August 29 2018, @01:07AM (1 child)
Apple has a lot of cash on hand. Tesla has incredible disruptive potential. Those are investments that pay many multiples. The waves Tesla has already caused in a very established, very static market are remarkable given how small it still is and how few cars it makes (so far). With a cash infusion from Apple they could capture a substantial slice of the car market, plus commercial fleets and even home energy storage at the moment that solar achieves universal grid parity. In short, Tesla has a bottleneck to get through, but on the other side are big, open, green fields.
Apple, on the other hand, does not have a whole lot of world-changing applications for that big pile of cash. Tim Cook is not Steve Jobs. He does not have big ideas. Elon Musk does.
Elon also got his start in IT, so he'd be a good guy to partner with as the world rethinks computing and mobility both.
Just a different take on the question...
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 29 2018, @02:14AM
> Those are investments that pay many multiples.
Pay? More like "cost". Buying in to Tesla now at its wildly inflated share price would be madness.
If Apple wants to get into the car business, it makes a lot more sense to go the Google route -- this year they are buying 60,000 FCA/Chrysler minivans which is a significant chunk (maybe a third) of the total production. My guess is they get a very good price and also get turnkey installation of their self-driving hardware with special mounts, larger alternator and wiring harness all built in. Similar for the new electric Jaguar I-PACE, where Google is buying (iirc) 20,000 units -- nearly doubling the JLR production run.