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The hits just keep coming for the various Defenders series. Per Deadline Hollywood, Netflix announced this evening that it has canceled Daredevil, just weeks after the show concluded its critically acclaimed third season. This news shouldn't be too surprising, but this one is a particularly tough blow for fans.
Clearly Netflix is cleaning house, since this follows surprise cancellations in October of Iron Fist and Luke Cage. That just leaves Jessica Jones and The Punisher on Netflex's[sic] roster of Defenders. Both have new seasons in the pipeline that are currently slated to air on Netflix as planned, according to Deadline's sources. But they will, in all likelihood, be on the chopping block eventually as well.
Marvel/Disney may be planning to revive the Defender series on its upcoming streaming service.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by fyngyrz on Friday November 30 2018, @07:15PM (16 children)
Surprised? I am not surprised; they were both terrible.
Iron Fist featured someone who couldn't make a good decision under almost any circumstances as the "hero", with a premium put on angst, which made it very difficult to watch. Every episode, I caught myself thinking "what an idiot" about the hero. That's not how you create the image of a hero in someone's mind. Eventually, we (the SO and I) just stopped watching.
Luke Cage featured a decided and concentrated push of toxic social context: incredibly bad music, near-overwhelming levels of ebonic ghetto-speak, and a "hero" who acted like a dimwit. It was very clear this show was aimed at the lower socio-economic levels, and used these things to try to resonate with them. Unfortunately, it also encourages them to continue in this vein. Not only am I unimpressed with the person of the hero, I am outright offended by the implicit and obvious support of lowest common denominator cultural values. I can't say I'm displeased to see the approach fail, either.
Jessica Jones, for one, has been a lot more interesting, a lot less angsty, and (mostly) features people who speak at least decent English and reason as if they had graduated (at least) high school. And it's still up there. Who knew that fans of comics (of which I am most definitely one, I think they're often an art form) and hero-centric entertainment might actually lean towards better plotting and hero characterizations that didn't cast them as dumbasses, illiterates, and cluetards. Huh.
I can almost hear people thinking "he doesn't like black heroes." Nope. You want an example of some pretty good work in the black hero area? Easy: Black Panther. The hero speaks in an educated and admirable manner, the society he comes from and is placed in context with is very much high end for the most part (stupid physical battles for kingship excepted, groan), the general idea is uplifting in almost every way, and yes, I am definitely a fan.
Daredevil? Well, that one was really very good for the first couple of seasons, but the last time around, where for an entire season a supposedly intelligent and well-educated hero wallows deeply in self-pity, estranges his already-very-small circle of friends and supporters, and almost entirely fails to follow the premise that underlay the first two seasons (protecting the citizens from pretty much whatever he could manage, both as a lawyer and in the person of Daredevil)... it was pretty bad. Again, no surprise here. We barely managed to watch the season through, and previously, we'd been excited to see every episode of the show.
This isn't like Firefly, where an arguably excellent series that was going along quite well got the axe and that was sad; this is just bad seasons coming home to roost. Of course these things will be cancelled. If they suck, they can't make money; and if they can't make money, they're gone.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday November 30 2018, @08:23PM (2 children)
There is no law of physics stating that an intelligent and well educated person must be rational, or even sane. We have some notable historical figures to consider. ₐₙ𝒹, ᵢ'ₘ ₙₒₜ ₑᵥₑₙ ₜₕᵢₙₖᵢₙ𝓰 ₐᵦₒᵤₜ ₐᵣᵢₛₜₐᵣ𝒸ₕᵤₛ ₕₑᵣₑ.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by fyngyrz on Friday November 30 2018, @08:36PM
I agree, but there'a pretty good rule of thumb that a rational character is more capable of evoking a simpatico reaction in a rational audience; I submit that the hero, at least, pretty much needs to do that, and particularly when said hero's been doing that previously and that's how the audience thinks of them.
Jessica Jones is pretty twisted; but as she's been that way from day one, I find it pretty easy to accept. It doesn't make her prone to stupidity all that often in the storyline, which I find more tolerable than fictional depictions of smart people consistently doing dumb things (or dumb people consistently doing dumb things, for that matter.)
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Friday November 30 2018, @10:12PM
On the other hand, most of reality wouldn't work at all as movie.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 30 2018, @08:43PM
I thought it was just me. I just keep finding reasons to not get to finishing season 3.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 30 2018, @08:43PM (4 children)
Iron Fist: I didn't even bother watching it.
Luke Cage: Honestly even with your Black Panther disclaimer you come off pretty biased. I wouldn't quite say racist though you bump up to those edges, more like cultural bias. The show is set in an urban ghetto type neighborhood and addresses lots of issues around there. I felt like it promoted better values while addressing the cultural reality. Most likely this is just an uncomfortable reality and your narrow cultural view has you labeling it "It was very clear this show was aimed at the lower socio-economic levels, and used these things to try to resonate with them." Basically it appeals to a different cultural context than your own so you shit on it while praising Jessica Jones. I liked JJ a little more than LC but not by that much, they are pretty similar and JJ has TONS of angst as it is baked into her very character. So you like Black Panther because it is more aristocratic, a point made quite clear by your dismissal of the leadership fight which has a lot of cultural background and specific value in that context.
Jessica Jones: super angsty, but at least she is a PI which much better fits the hero ideal. She has her own stupidity with trying to do everything herself, but hey that REALLY fits the "individual responsibility" tropes that go around here.
Daredevil: you complain about a lack of character development, then get angry that they do character development that you just don't personally like? Gee, a more realistic approach to heroes and the emotional trauma they go through doesn't fit the standard comic book hero ideal.
Of course you like Firefly. Everyone does, but given your responses here I am SO NOT SURPRISED to see you like the embodiment of Libertarian Space Opera.
I don't think you're racist so don't get bent out of shape, but I do think your opinions are based on a pretty narrow slice of culture and you do have bias against cultures that don't fit the western ideal. I will applaud Netflix for attempting a more realistic set of Hero series and delving into the darker aspects of "beating up bad guys". I think it is a good thing they are canceling the shows before they collapse on their own, and the dark angsty hero concept is definitely being overloaded.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by fyngyrz on Friday November 30 2018, @09:17PM (3 children)
That is precisely correct. I am culturally biased. In favor of education, communication, common ground, and rational behavior. I'm about as far from racist as you can get - I'm perfectly comfortable with people regardless of their race. I am considerably less comfortable with people who embrace self-destructive behaviors, values, and related mindsets. Again, regardless of their race.
FYI, I spent many years growing up just a few blocks north of Harlem, in NYC. My (present) cultural context, as you put it, is one that puts that garbage as far behind me as I can get it — because it sucked. Profoundly. I don't encourage it, lionize it, or promote it and I'm very comfortable speaking out against it. Again, because it sucked. I was there. I'm not guessing. I know.
Culture is not automatically of value just because it's culture. It's valuable when it advances the individual, the local group, the people at large. Small cliques that self-isolate within the larger context are bad. Pretty much uniformly so.
Absolutely wrong. Feel free to try again.
What happened to those shows wasn't character development. That was character erosion.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 01 2018, @12:02AM (2 children)
Now you gone done it!
I met someone else who said it was a "cultural" thing, but that is basically code for racism these days. Sorry to break it to ya, but you're lumping a population of over 100k into one box of gangs/violence. That is almost THE definition of racism, but at least you supposedly don't go for the genetic racism, just the cultural.
Yeah, little of that to be found in any of the shows, and Luke Cage wasn't much different. Your cultural bias is the first extension of racism, just think about how you are saying no one in Harlem has your quoted traits. That is fucked up pal.
So you're just a prejudiced asshole who would judge someone severely for using a double negative or any other indicator for "lacks education". I didn't see any glorification of bad values, maybe you just didn't watch the show through to the end and made some assumptions?
(Score: 3, Interesting) by fyngyrz on Saturday December 01 2018, @06:14PM (1 child)
No. I'm lumping one culture - the culture in harlem and spanish harlem I grew up with - into a "holy shit, this was a horribly violent, ignorant and vicious environment" box, because it was, regardless of the exceptions - including me - who lived there, or the exceptional cultural elements.
The jazz and blues prevalent there were great, for instance, and both figured prominently once you managed to get in the door and off the street. One of the reasons I was so thoroughly exposed to the problems I'm talking about was because I insisted on going to see those things. Should I have hidden inside instead, out of "respect" (actually fear) for the dominant street culture there? Or was I right to think it should be okay for me to go watch Billy Cobham?
The culture - not the exceptions to it, but the overall culture of violence and ignorance and hostility - was massively toxic and dangerous. Existence on the street was a continuous experience of being challenged, threatened, attacked, stolen from, catcalled and so forth. The slang, the things that grew from it like "cap that bitch", "rappers" shooting each other and so on, all that grew from that toxic set of underpinnings.
The problems didn't arise because the majority of those people were black, or of Hispanic descent; they arose because the people in the area who owned the streets adopted horrible ideas and then acted on them; this is what the kids saw and it made for a very strong influence on them, enough to keep the situation constantly bad. Our history is replete with examples of individuals who lifted themselves up out of that kind of area and abandoned those approaches to life. It's nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with deciding you're a good person, not a bloody thug. And deciding that means you're stepping away from the violence and related malfuckery (and there's a lot that's related) and becoming a positive influence on society. Insular preconceptions based on toxic cultural inertia work mightily against this, hence I object, strongly, to them. When the question comes down to do we want the nation to become more like the ghettos, or the ghettos more like the nation, I think the answer is obvious. Because I've lived there, and I evaluate the street mindset there as utterly unworthy of emulation.
That's absolutely ridiculous. Culture isn't race. Objecting to a culture isn't uncommon or unreasonable in and of itself. Do you object to a culture that forces women to cover their faces? How about one that cuts their clitoris off as a baby? If these kinds of things are okay with you (you're sick, but) I'm sure I could find something in some culture that would make you say "wow, that's a terrible cultural element, that should be disposed of." That's exactly what I'm saying. The things I've identified are toxic in my estimation, and consequently they should be disposed of. They have little or no merit in the larger culture they are embedded in, in fact are corrosive to it and harmful to people in general, and encouraging them for any reason is a terrible mistake.
I didn't say that. You're erecting a straw man. I said the culture there was toxic, by which I (obviously) meant that it had strong, in fact dominant, toxic elements. It was. That's a fact, not a comment on every individual living there. I go further in the same direction and state that a lot of what has grown out of those cultural elements is just as strong, and just as toxic, and just as unworthy of any responsible citizen.
Sigh. We all are prejudiced against the things we find unacceptable. We have quite literally taken a stand against them in our minds. The distinction of being an "asshole" in that regard pretty much depends on what those things are. I find interpersonal violence, threats, and hobbling communication to be unacceptable. Any culture (cultural element) that embraces these things within the containing meta-culture, I'm going to take a stand against. If that makes me an "asshole" in your eyes, I can live with that.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 01 2018, @08:05PM
no. no. no. having standards is morally wrong. you're supposed to embrace toxic propaganda and inferior humans into your line. how else will our masters continue diluting us into a gelatinous pool of retarded self destruction.
(Score: 2) by edIII on Friday November 30 2018, @08:55PM (3 children)
I agree with you, mostly. Iron Fist was a disaster because that kid doesn't represent, in any way, shape, or form, with is behavior, a kung fu master. In one scene he is meditating to restore his chi, and in another he acts like the biggest fucking child. I can't reconcile the two, and he is wholly unbelievable as a person who mastered Shaolin-like skills. I can believe he is a young punk with decent martial arts skills, but not a master. Not somebody that has achieved higher levels as is implied by his powers.
Dare Devil, I take a little issue with. I think his falling down in the last season was hard to watch, but he did lose a lot. It made sense to me that he became lost. Yeah, it was a drama season that departed from the action of the first ones. I would still like to see the next one, and it could be just as good as the first two seasons.
Luke Cage, I'm not sure where you are coming from. Either way, it wasn't all that great, although I think the actor did just fine as far as character development goes. He's not a dimwit exactly either.
Noticeably absent from this conversation is The Punisher. I thought it was nothing short of excellent myself. Hope that stays around, although I don't know how much darker it could get, or if that guy could continue to survive the punishment.
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 2) by fyngyrz on Friday November 30 2018, @09:22PM
I haven't watched that one yet, so had nothing to say either way. :)
That seems like a valid way to look at it, if you see that kind of behavior as a reasonable construction of drama, rather than weak character, as I see it; but just as a practical matter, that's going against the expectations of the viewers of the previous seasons. The people who loved it in season one and two aren't sure to overlap well with those who would love season three. And my guess is, they didn't.
(Score: 2) by fyngyrz on Friday November 30 2018, @09:26PM
Oh yes, that too. :)
(Score: 3, Insightful) by rleigh on Friday November 30 2018, @09:30PM
I put Iron Fist's failure down to the writers. The writing was terrible. It started with an interesting premise, but it quickly fizzled out. It's also bit tragic when a minor character (the kung fu girl, whatever her name was), is vastly more interesting than the protagonist! Not only was the writing for her much better, she was a better actress and better at martial arts! Sad. It's like the writers set this up to fail from the start.
(Score: 2) by bobthecimmerian on Friday November 30 2018, @11:24PM
Just my own thoughts, for fun:
Iron Fist: agreed. They have a central contradiction that they just can't get past, a person so unbelievably disciplined as to be the greatest fighter of his generation and maybe in the world has to go through emotional upheaval when returning home after 20 years. I don't know how the character ever worked in the comics if he had the same issues. One thing that did impress me about the first season was the character arcs for other people in the series. I liked everyone in Iron Fist season one except the main character - and that was the writers' fault, not the actor's fault.
Luke Cage: musical tastes vary, so all of your complaints there are unfair. A few of the musical acts appealed to me, and I was blown away by Christone Ingram in the second season. And the hero was not a dimwit. He's a black man that has already been imprisoned and tortured for crimes he didn't commit (spoilers, sorry), it's no wonder he doesn't want to stand up and thrust out his chest like Superman and do deeds in the light of day. That's not to say it was a good show, just that it was mediocre and not garbage.
Jessica Jones: you seem to have higher regard for that, and I don't understand how or why. It's more angsty, she's an asshole to everyone. That may be fair because of what she went through, but she's got more angst than Iron Fist.
Daredevil: I disagree with your review entirely. In the last season he's cut himself off from the rest of the world because he simultaneously thinks that he doesn't want to be Murdoch anymore while he's thinking that maybe Punisher was right and he should have just killed people when he had the chance. I thought that was fine. I found the origin story of Bullseye implausible and thought the pacing of the season was too slow, so I stopped watching.
To me the big weakness of all the series was The Hand, which were just too generic to be interesting. Stick, Electra, and the big threat in The Defenders were all especially bad. They needed some other villain. With the benefit of hindsight, it should have been Kingpin and a few super powered henchmen. Kingpin was the most interesting villain in any of their series.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 02 2018, @07:09AM (1 child)
While it has a variety of stupidness forwarding the plot, none of the characters are OUTRIGHT stupid, although like most humans they sometimes make stupid choices whether due to character flaws, hubris, or choosing what seemed like the obvious choice at the time.
The best part about it is the hero doesn't always win. Innocent people get caught in the crossfire. People redeem and fall to the darkness. It's got a little bit of everything, and while it's primarily black focused, there is actual diversity in the background characters, unlike some shows where it tends to be all black or all white casting, or ignores minority demographics that aren't white or black.
Z Nation on SyFy is another show that has done truly excellent diverse casting, both of background and speaking characters.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 02 2018, @07:13AM
And I mean who doesn't love a leprechaun supervillain?