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Submitted via IRC for AndyTheAbsurd
Today, we're announcing that the next release after .NET Core 3.0 will be .NET 5. This will be the next big release in the .NET family.
There will be just one .NET going forward, and you will be able to use it to target Windows, Linux, macOS, iOS, Android, tvOS, watchOS and WebAssembly and more.
We will introduce new .NET APIs, runtime capabilities and language features as part of .NET 5.
[...] We intend to release .NET 5 in November 2020, with the first preview available in the first half of 2020. It will be supported with future updates to Visual Studio 2019, Visual Studio for Mac and Visual Studio Code
Source: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/introducing-net-5/
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The only certainty is that nothing is certain.
-- Pliny the Elder
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @01:34AM (14 children)
Microsoft apparently has problems with counting.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @01:49AM (1 child)
.Nyet
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @09:49AM
DontNET!
(Score: 2) by sshelton76 on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:06AM
Truthfully the differences between 3.0 and 3.5 should have warranted a change to major version. Glad MS is finally rectifying this mistake.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:10AM
That was Windows 10 AKA NET 4
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:22AM (3 children)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_numerology#Four [wikipedia.org]
Just looking out for their Chinese business. [4 is unlucky in superstitious China]
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday May 07 2019, @01:47PM (2 children)
Why was there an MS-DOS 4.0? Remember that one?
Nope? Neither do most people.
"The DOS ain't done until Lotus won't run!" banner hanging from the wall in the room of developers working on MS-DOS 4.0.
It was bad. Very bad. And I mean much more badder and far worser than the usual Microsoft bad. The efforts to break Lotus also caused it to break many other things.
When trying to solve a problem don't ask who suffers from the problem, ask who profits from the problem.
(Score: 2) by Hyperturtle on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:26PM (1 child)
I thought MS-DOS 4.x let people finally make use of a partition/volume greater than 30MB in size via the FDISK partitioning tool.
Except for that one bug in 4.0 that didn't affect everyone (but when it did...sorry your data is gone)... then they released MS_DOS 4.01 to fix that. I didn't experience it myself, so whatever the trigger was didn't affect me.
But as far as office productivity, really, their tactics with Windows for Workgroups version 3.11 was probably worse. At that time, people had become much more dependent on PCs connecting to mainframes and Novell and other "network" operating systems that the MS approach to the problem of cross-platform connectivity was pretty much the same solution you eluded to in regards to not enough people using Excel...Win for Workgroups broke a lot of competing applications and services.
I don't remember any positive features introduced between Windows for Workgroups 3.1 and 3.11 aside from it breaking nearly everything a business used that wasn't Microsoft, though. Maybe someone here does... maybe it enhanced 802.5 while degrading genuine IBM branded token-ring or something.
At least MS-DOS 4.x provided the option to have much larger disk drives that didn't have to be divided up into 30MB chunks, and better memory management too!
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:53PM
Thank God I only had to use MS DOS 3.0 briefly and write some x86 assembly screen handling routines for our software.
Then, years later, my first real use of MS-DOS was 5.0 + Win 3.1. Had to develop for that. Yuk. But I was still mostly a classic Mac developer. Boy am I glad I mostly skipped using PCs until about Win XP.
When trying to solve a problem don't ask who suffers from the problem, ask who profits from the problem.
(Score: 3, Informative) by ikanreed on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:49AM (3 children)
4.0 Came out in 2010. Are you literally a decade behind?
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday May 07 2019, @09:52AM (1 child)
The SDK, yes. However, the topic is .Net Core, which will skip 4.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Informative) by ikanreed on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:01PM
That's because while the compiler and platform features changed, the actual VM had no changes to support 4.0 or 4.5. All the major changes were in "high level" functionality. Things like async and await were built on existing multithreading libraries. To a developer, they were real features, but to the VM it was indistinguishable from pushing task objects onto threadpools.
(Score: 2) by driverless on Tuesday May 07 2019, @10:04AM
No, he's literally nine years behind.
(Score: 2) by driverless on Tuesday May 07 2019, @09:37AM (1 child)
Yup. 3, 3.1, 4, 2000, XP, 7, 8, 8.1, 10. Sheesh, I know it's "no child left behind" but perhaps it would have been better to let this one repeat a few classes.
(Score: 2) by EEMac on Tuesday May 07 2019, @12:49PM
(Score: 4, Insightful) by DannyB on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:32AM (13 children)
We need a managed runtime platform. That targets all major platforms. Write Once, Blue Screen Anywhere. With GC. Multi language support. Open source.
Wait . . . don't we already have that with Java?
And Java has two decades of sophisticated compiler research. (And I don't mean Java, I mean the two stages of JIT compilers that turn JVM bytecode into native code.) It has a choice of GC's that have been developed over decades. With knobs and dials for tuning. Two new state of the art GCs (ZGC and Shenandoah) that can support terabytes of heap with only 10 ms GC pause times, and I am told (on HackerNews) that more often 1 ms GC pause times. Terabytes of heap is enough for any Java Hello World program!
What do we need .NET for again?
When trying to solve a problem don't ask who suffers from the problem, ask who profits from the problem.
(Score: 2) by ikanreed on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:01AM (8 children)
My sincere defense of a pretty good product by an awful company(not that Oracle isn't also awful):
1. .NET has UI paradigms that are a hundred times better. MVVM is a really great way to design communication between GUI and a data model that backs it, compared to .
2. Early Java had some language decisions that were unwise: no delegates, no implicit boxing/unboxing, always doing reference types even when it's not appropriate
3. Visual Studio, even if hell for devops folks, is a really great tool and I like using it. It's not that it's features aren't available elsewhere, but the way Eclipse achieves basics like autocompletion through bloated plugins feels worse to me
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:38AM (3 children)
I maintain both C# and Java applications. I like C# as a language better. Java recently added some LINQ stuff, but like everything else in Java, it's klunky as hell. Java's rough equivalent of delegates is the venerable anonymous inner class. It's a ton more syntax but achieves roughly (but not quite) the same thing. Also sensible overloads of operator[] make for good readability in C#. First-class properties are better than JavaBeanGetSetMethods.
Otoh, what I like about Java is the FOSS ecosystem that C# seems to lack. So C# wins hands-down as a language, but Java is where the ecosystem is at.
Ditto about Visual Studio vs. Eclipse. I never liked Eclipse, so I use Netbeans. Intellisense is just way more responsive than Netbeans complation. Everything about Java is bloated.
Also, I absolutely hate the way Microsoft's Dot Net documentation is organized. Javadoc is easier to navigate imho.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by ikanreed on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:46AM (1 child)
On the documentation point, when do you ever actually browse it anymore, it's always a google search for "ClassName"
(Score: 2) by bobthecimmerian on Tuesday May 07 2019, @10:52AM
I can't speak for Netbeans or IntelliJ, but in Eclipse if you mouseover a fragment of Java code the javadoc pops right up. It's really handy.
(Score: 3, Informative) by bobthecimmerian on Tuesday May 07 2019, @10:56AM
Java 8 has lambdas, which can usually replace the anonymous inner class in a way that saves a boatload of boilerplate syntax. But you're still left with a painfully verbose language. The best thing about the Java Virtual Machine is Groovy/Kotlin/Scala/Ceylon/Clojure/Eta/almost-anything-but-Java.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @05:46AM (1 child)
Oracle's sue-happy nature has scared away bigger supporters of Java.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday May 07 2019, @01:51PM
Yep, I can see Oracle bringing down Java. It won't fall overnight, but Oracle would be uniquely the one who could bring it down.
When trying to solve a problem don't ask who suffers from the problem, ask who profits from the problem.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:04PM
I do not disagree at all. .NET and C# have the hindsight to fix many warts in Java. That is a benefit of being a second system -- but from a different vendor without concerns about the second system effect. I admired C# when I first read the language spec soon after it was introduced.
Java was conceived in the early 1990s when resources were much more limited and PCs were thousands of 1990ish dollars. So I can forgive some of the design decisions. As a common lisp fan of the time, I was excited when I first heard rumors about Java on Usenet. Even before it had a name.
Any system / language has warts. And Java has plenty. Definitely its fair share. And maybe even a few extra. Developers in all kinds of systems tend to overlook the warts because it is possible to get all kinds of useful, gainful, productive economic work done.
On point 3, I'll respectfully disagree and take Eclipse / other java IDEs over Visual Studio any day. And they run on non-Windows. Even on my Pixelbook and other Chromebooks.
I will point out one thing I think Java (the language spec and JVM runtime spec) have done better than any other system. Religious devotion to backward compatibility. A newer compiler accepts ancient source code not using modern idioms, and runtime system can run way old compiled binary JVM bytecode. Over the two plus decades of Java's life this has now proven to be one of the best decisions the early adherence to compatibility the designers could have made. I know it must have been tempting to just up and change the language or runtime in non-backward compatible ways. See: Python. This compatibility has been one of the big assets for Java in the corporate and enterprise world.
Given Oracle's behavior, I could possibly see myself warming up to the C# / .NET world. Not today. But it is not inconceivable. Especially given other announcements today of Microsoft's new GPL'd Linux Kernel in WSL 2, and new Terminal in Windows. Then the question becomes: which is less evil: Microsoft or Oracle?
When trying to solve a problem don't ask who suffers from the problem, ask who profits from the problem.
(Score: 3, Informative) by DannyB on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:09PM
One more thing: .NET has a LOT of work, that is largely invisible, to catch up to the JVM runtime.
Multiple platforms, but with the C1 / C2 JIT compilers. GC for terabytes of heap and hundreds of cores. Open J9. GraalVM.
The research on these and other things is because Sun wisely chose to GPL the JDK, enabling research.
These features I'm talking about are hidden deep below the superficial surface of .NET / JVM and the languages Java and C#. But these count in a BIG way. .NET / C# may not be a real choice for seriously big workloads. When will .NET run on mainframes? (not that I want to, but big banks seem to) Just sayin'
When trying to solve a problem don't ask who suffers from the problem, ask who profits from the problem.
(Score: 2) by Pino P on Tuesday May 07 2019, @01:36PM (3 children)
We also have legal threats over experimentation with Java. One is that the license of the language specification forbids distribution to the public of a partial implementation of the specification, meaning early development of an independent implementation must occur behind NDA. Another is Oracle v. Google. The license of .NET lately is clearer on these points.
(Score: 3, Informative) by DannyB on Tuesday May 07 2019, @01:50PM (2 children)
OpenJDK is GPL. With the Classpath exception enabling you to run your program on Java without it coming under the scope of the GPL.
Of course, a thing like this would not stop Oracle, which is pure evil.
When trying to solve a problem don't ask who suffers from the problem, ask who profits from the problem.
(Score: 2) by Pino P on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:40PM (1 child)
Permissively licensed code can run in a GPL-hostile environment, such as iOS or video game consoles.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday May 07 2019, @03:53PM
I am not an iOS developer, but it is my understanding that Apple does not allow any kind of runtime interpreters. This is largely why all iOS browsers are just skins of Apple's browser. But things could have changed.
I don't know if Java is used in video game consoles . . . other than as part of the Blue Ray implementation.
While Java may be made available to you and I under the GPL + Classpath exception; the owner, Oracle, can license it out under other terms and conditions, and for profit.
When trying to solve a problem don't ask who suffers from the problem, ask who profits from the problem.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 07 2019, @04:45AM (4 children)
The net is on version 7.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday May 07 2019, @09:54AM (3 children)
False. The SDK is @ v7, the Core is @3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday May 07 2019, @02:10PM (2 children)
As a Java developer, I wish I understood in practical terms what this means.
When trying to solve a problem don't ask who suffers from the problem, ask who profits from the problem.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday May 07 2019, @10:42PM (1 child)
Very simple, actually. It's like when jsdk jumped from v1.8 to v9.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday May 08 2019, @01:38PM
That is simple. Thanks. I'm thinking I need to start learning the terminology if I want to even plan to learn the technology stack.
When trying to solve a problem don't ask who suffers from the problem, ask who profits from the problem.