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Aramaic, a Semitic language related to Hebrew and Arabic, was the common tongue of the entire Middle East when the Middle East was the crossroads of the world. People used it for commerce and government across territory stretching from Egypt and the Holy Land to India and China. Parts of the Bible and the Jewish Talmud were written in it; the original "writing on the wall," presaging the fall of the Babylonians, was composed in it. As Jesus died on the cross, he cried in Aramaic, "Elahi, Elahi, lema shabaqtani?" ("My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?")
But Aramaic is down now to its last generation or two of speakers, most of them scattered over the past century from homelands where their language once flourished. In their new lands, few children and even fewer grandchildren learn it. (My father, a Jew born in Kurdish Iraq, is a native speaker and scholar of Aramaic; I grew up in Los Angeles and know just a few words.) This generational rupture marks a language's last days. For field linguists like Khan, recording native speakers—"informants," in the lingo—is both an act of cultural preservation and an investigation into how ancient languages shift and splinter over time.
In a highly connected global age, languages are in die-off. Fifty to 90 percent of the roughly 7,000 languages spoken today are expected to go silent by century's end. We live under an oligarchy of English and Mandarin and Spanish, in which 94 percent of the world's population speaks 6 percent of its languages. Yet among threatened languages, Aramaic stands out. Arguably no other still-spoken language has fallen farther.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/how-to-save-a-dying-language-4143017/?all
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @02:39PM (2 children)
I think Aramaic is still the liturgical language of Syriac Christians.
(Score: 2) by driverless on Thursday August 01 2019, @06:33AM (1 child)
COBOL isn't looking so healthy either.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 01 2019, @12:12PM
No, sadly, it is still being maintained and created.
It won't die until ABAP dies.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @02:40PM
But, at least we still speak igPay atinLay
(Score: 5, Disagree) by jdavidb on Wednesday July 31 2019, @02:45PM (14 children)
Netcraft confirms it. Let's stick to the facts and look at the numbers.
Seriously I am glad there are some preservation efforts underway. Aramaic is very historically significant. Besides some of the facts noted in the summary, Aramaic completely replaced the original Hebrew phoenician-style alphabet, supplying the Hebrew square script that is used today, and a minority of scholars believe the New Testament was originally written in Aramaic rather than Greek. (This theory is doubtful, but there are definitely some sentences in the NT that make more sense when translated back into Aramaic or compared with existing Aramaic versions.)
ⓋⒶ☮✝🕊 Secession is the right of all sentient beings
(Score: 4, Interesting) by c0lo on Wednesday July 31 2019, @03:12PM (11 children)
How about a continuous culture far older than any other on this Earth [australiangeographic.com.au] which one may never learn directly about because their language dies? [wikipedia.org]
Other uncontacted people [wikipedia.org], many invaded in sorta contemporary conquista [survivalinternational.org]?
Tears in the rain, we don't even know what we are losing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @06:15PM (10 children)
The dirty little secret that no one will publicly acknowledge is that the current population of Australian aborigines have only been here 10,000 years. They displaced an earlier culture which is where all the >10,000 year old artefacts come from. So they are invaders too, just a bit older.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @06:41PM (5 children)
Nice try. Except the Earth is only 6000 years old. So you'll need to come back with a better justification for genocide.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 01 2019, @01:39PM (1 child)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 01 2019, @02:40PM
Just give them more petrol to sniff, that will get their minds off the intrusion.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 01 2019, @01:42PM
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 01 2019, @01:55PM
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 01 2019, @01:59PM
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 01 2019, @01:28PM (1 child)
Yeah, we don't talk about things like that. Just like we don't mention that those tribes would slaughter each other for resources making the arrival of Europeans no different than some other tribe taking over.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 01 2019, @02:09PM
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 01 2019, @02:02PM (1 child)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 01 2019, @02:27PM
Racist!
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday July 31 2019, @06:12PM (1 child)
> supplying the Hebrew square script that is used today
But when were the vowel markings added?
Every performance optimization is a grate wait lifted from my shoulders.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 01 2019, @04:25AM
Hebrew vowel markings used today were developed between 500 and 900 ce, according to Wikipedia (see Niqqud).
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @03:10PM (19 children)
but don't insist on new people speaking dying languages.
both english and spanish are splitting into new languages right now, so it's not like the future will be too boring...
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @03:36PM
Given how enough people voluntarily learn to speak Klingon, Quenia etc.; to keep a language alive, or resurrect a dead one, you just need to find a way to attach a proper sort of incentive to it.
If the language associates with the social group "old losers", on the other hand, then it gets to die. The only way to save it, is re-associate it with something better, or at least more fun.
(Score: 0, Interesting) by nitehawk214 on Wednesday July 31 2019, @04:07PM (11 children)
I always notice these language hipsters crying over dying languages want other people to speak it as a first language. Wouldn't want to isolate themselves and their children.
"Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @04:42PM (10 children)
In Europe, children routinely learn 3-4 languages and no one makes a big deal out of it.
(Score: 0, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @05:06PM (9 children)
Of course, one of those languages has to be English.
I've already got that one covered.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @05:46PM (8 children)
To know just one single spoken language, is analogous to knowing just one single programming language.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @06:47PM (7 children)
Not really. Programming languages can be learned (and forgotten) in about a week. So I don't bother. If I ever need FORTRAN, I'll figure it out in a couple days.
A second language on the other hand is a major life choice that either *you* make or the people before you made.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @08:34PM (3 children)
and common everyday dictionary is an order of magnitude smaller than say Qt API. You let other people hypnotize you with "major life choice" bullshit, you just hobble your brain with unfounded fear of learning. Hereabouts, schoolchildren who chat between themselves in a three-language mix would not even understand what you bellyache about.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @10:00PM (2 children)
Look, to be FLUENT in a language is a major commitment.
It requires a lot of continual practice with other native speakers.
If on the other hand your goal is to be able to "get by" as a visitor to another country, then yes, the time commitment is much less.
It is my experience that people who claim to speak "3 or more languages" typically do not speak more than one of those very well. Maybe 2 at most.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @10:54PM (1 child)
I can only pity the narrowness of your experience.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 01 2019, @04:48AM
And I can only be amazed at your level of smugness.
I speak multiple languages myself, to varying degrees of fluency, which is why I am calling BS on your breezy little posts.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by c0lo on Thursday August 01 2019, @01:17AM (2 children)
There are paradigms that simply can't be supported by some languages - in other words, the "1984" Newspeak is a right approach for the purpose (and frightening):
Imagine trying to understand or think:
when all you can speak is BASIC (and basic English).
Yes, once you grok the above, chances are** learning and programming in any other language is a piece of cake, but practicing the concepts above in some of their "natural programming language" beforehand helps.
---
** no strong warranties. Try Malbolge [wikipedia.org] if you are inclined to disagree.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 1) by nitehawk214 on Friday August 02 2019, @02:35PM (1 child)
Your .sig is especially relevant to this conversation. :)
"Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 02 2019, @04:49PM
Except it's a footnote.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by DannyB on Wednesday July 31 2019, @06:28PM (2 children)
I wonder if they are simply splitting into dialects as opposed to languages?
Dialects are always a result of geography.
There is New York Upspeak, Southern Drawl, British English, and a subtle but detectable "Canadian" dialect, and then don't get me started on Australian. Oy saw a snike! Eat head beeg blow eyes and a huge tile!
No matter which dialect you hear, you would still describe it as "English", and be able to understand it.
In verses 5-6 of Judges 12 [biblegateway.com] in the old testament, there is an example of dialects. Whether you could pronounce "Shibboleth" or "Sibboleth" determined whether you got to live or die. The Hebrew letter ש pronounced either shin or sin, when read aloud makes either an "s" or an "sh" sound in a word. In modern use, the markings place a dot over the upper right or upper left to indicate which pronunciation should be used. Other markings are to indicate where vowels are pronounced, since all 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet are consonants. The modern markings make it unnecessary to airlift in shipments of vowels.
Maybe English and Spanish are splitting into other languages? Something largely unrecognizable to common English speakers.
Every performance optimization is a grate wait lifted from my shoulders.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @07:21PM
First it's dialects, then it's different languages. Just ask the Spanish and the Italians and the Portuguese about their Latin.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @08:32PM
Not quite. It has more to do with isolation of interactions. If I listen to an American talk (only receiving sound), I bet I can tell whether he is black or not.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @09:45PM (2 children)
Nobody suggests forcing people to learn dying languages, the usual focus is on preservation so that they're available in the future for people to study or learn. Learning classical Latin would be largely pointless for every day living as it lacks a significant amount of vocabulary for things that we do. And it gets worse with each passing year.
That's the nature of a dead language, there may be folks that can speak it, but it's not changing or evolving and there's limited ability to use it in any context.
(Score: 2) by martyb on Thursday August 01 2019, @04:54AM (1 child)
For everyday use, yes, I would agree there's not much need for that.
But then the second sentence took it a bit too far. Medical terminology (especially anatomy) is *rife* with words of Latin origin. I'm tempted to add organic chemistry but could be convinced there is a greater Greek than Latin influence there. Taxonomy (is that the right word? Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order,...) certainly has many Latin influences, as well. So, no, I do not regularly see doctors chatting in Latin, but I would dare say that having a working knowledge of the language would be a huge help in any studies in those fields.
My knowledge of Latin is quite limited, but I did teach myself how to read some Ancient Greek. That sure opened my eyes! Words that used to be a memorized sequence of letters and sounds suddenly took on new meaning when I learned the underlying words on which they were based. Off the top of my head example: What's the perimeter of something? Peri- means about or around. -meter means to measure. So, in this case, the perimeter would be, roughly, how far around it is. Forgive the less than mindblowing example, but it is hot and late so it will have to suffice. Hmmm. Suffice. Suffix. So, Suff- probably means at the end. And -ice waves hands about being or having the quality of. So, something about being at the end. And so I am. =)
Wit is intellect, dancing.
(Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Thursday August 01 2019, @02:10PM
Definitely agree with most of this. FYI:
Suffix is from Latin suffixus ("something fastened on"), the past participle of suffigere, which means "to fasten onto/under" from sub- + figere "to fasten." (Think of other words like affix and even fix, which mean to, well, "fix to/fasten" or "fix.")
Whereas suffice is ultimately from Latin sufficere, which means "to put under, to supply as substitute" and figuratively "to be adequate," from sub- + facere (often turns into -ficere in compounds) "to make/do."
Hint for etymology: words with su- followed by double letters are often combining forms in Latin using sub- + some other root word, where the b gets lost/transformed. And a huge number of English words come from Latin facere and its derivatives -- facere had dozens of different meanings in Latin depending on context, and with all the various compounds formed with prefixes, you get well over a hundred meanings in Latin that migrated in various ways to English, as noted in this table [wikipedia.org]. Actually, that table is really useful, as it makes clear that if you learn about a dozen Latin verbs and their combining forms, you'll see them in an enormous number of English words and thereby know where the words come from.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @03:37PM (13 children)
Governments should ban all languages except the universal language of the internet broken/googletranslated english.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @03:40PM (5 children)
agree me
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @03:43PM (4 children)
subscribed
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @03:52PM (3 children)
wont work plz fix
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @03:55PM (2 children)
wontfix
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @06:52PM (1 child)
OMG UR SO LAME THATS Y WINDOZ RAPES LINX EVRY DAY
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 01 2019, @12:23PM
so doubleplusgood, such bellyfeel goodthink
(Score: 3, Funny) by RedIsNotGreen on Wednesday July 31 2019, @04:10PM (6 children)
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Wednesday July 31 2019, @04:18PM (5 children)
. . . stop making fun of my google translated How else do you think the Star Trek Federation got it's universal translator? They built on the prior work of google, of course. We're in the early days of this kind of technology. Raise your hand, if you'd gladly pay for a universal translator. Give the sign, if you could have it all stuffed into a star trek emblem that could be worn like a pin.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Wednesday July 31 2019, @04:21PM (2 children)
... filters, filtered out my insert language tag. Which. I should have known was going to be filtered, because they sanitize the use of the less than and greater than signs.
Should have read
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @05:20PM (1 child)
"I said in my haste, It's technology's fault." RFP 116:11
(Score: 3, Informative) by bzipitidoo on Wednesday July 31 2019, @06:30PM
"He who is valiant and pure of spirit may find the Holy Grail in the Castle of aaarrrrggh"
(Score: 3, Informative) by DannyB on Wednesday July 31 2019, @06:32PM
In a Deep Space Nine episode where a few Ferengi landed in 1947 Roswell NM, (don't ask), the universal translators were in their ears, or skulls. One Ferengi's translator was malfunctioning and thus he couldn't understand the strange English language spoken by the Humans of New Mexico.
Every performance optimization is a grate wait lifted from my shoulders.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Wednesday July 31 2019, @06:52PM
I'm still waiting for the version of Siri/Alexa/whatever where you can replace the voice with Majel Roddenberry.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2, Insightful) by SomeGuy on Wednesday July 31 2019, @03:50PM (7 children)
If any language needs saving, it is proper US-English. It seems to be devolving in to a mess of incoherent abbreviations and vague Unicode symbols expressed in broken, individual, incomplete sentences of 140 characters or less.
Also, it is important to document old meanings and contexts.
In an impossibly idyllic far future, a normal person would read the article with the word "god", and wonder why people were writing about imaginary child molesting sky fairies, until they understand the context that a long time ago stupid, drooling, primitives humans seriously believed this unbelievably dumb shit.
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @05:00PM
👍 👏 😊
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @06:10PM (3 children)
Speaking of which, where is our beloved President, realDonaldTrump? We haven't seen him since June.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday July 31 2019, @06:35PM (2 children)
I wondered that myself just minutes ago.
I will build a casino wing onto the capital building if elected in 2024.
Hey, I've seen a lot of casinos.
This is the best, classiest casino you're ever going to see.
Everyone who's ever come near one of my Trump casinos has said that they loved it.
This casino will restore dignity and respect to the political process.
Trust me, I know my casinos.
And if some people don't want the casino, then we'll make it even bigger.
And we'll make them pay for it.
Trust me, I know what I'm talking about. Classy beautiful stuff.
And I'll build a clown circus wing on to the white house.
I can use it to give speeches from the center ring. People will just love it.
It will be a historical addition unlike anything the founders could have imagined.
Believe me.
Every performance optimization is a grate wait lifted from my shoulders.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @07:49PM (1 child)
You had me going there for a while, but I eventually realized this couldn't really have been Trump because there is no promise to make Mexico pay for the casino.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @09:00PM
Combo casino/detention centre?
(Score: 2) by Bot on Wednesday July 31 2019, @11:19PM
All evidence points to ancient people being smarter than us tbh. Dawkins reasoning about religions is a prime example. Old time atheists would laugh at him. So, where are your advanced atheist ideas, that put to shame sacred texts? Just curious.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 02 2019, @05:27PM
Aw how cute, some imaginary sky penis worshipers got all offended. Well, hopefully it's the imaginary sky dildo worshipers, it would be worrisome if Twitter users were that hostile.
(Score: 0, Troll) by fadrian on Wednesday July 31 2019, @05:02PM
The bottom line is that the words written and spoken in this language have caused more strife over their meaning than one could imagine. Good riddance, and now get rid of the translations.
That is all.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @05:17PM (2 children)
Do what a jew would do: let it die and then make money lecturing people about the causes of the death and start university courses about the culture that spoke the dead language.
The khazar jews are enterprising rat scum.
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @05:35PM (1 child)
One night, when you're all alone, I'm gonna get you . . .
- khazar jew
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @05:36PM
No, no, no - it's Bizarre Pew. Pepe LePew's British cousin.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @05:18PM (3 children)
Make it a language in some popular TV series.
Look how many people study made-up languages like Klingon or
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dothraki_language [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday July 31 2019, @05:49PM
First, you'll have to create a popular TV series. You don't just sit down, and create a Star Trek on a whim. I don't believe the creators of Star Trek knew what they were doing when they did it. It took a couple seasons (or more) for Trekkies to create themselves. Way back then, Star Trek was just a somewhat more modern, slightly more Sci-Fi savvy version of Lost in Space.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG0ochx16Dg [youtube.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @08:13PM
I remember watching Lord of the Rings and hearing Gandalf refusing to utter the black speech of Mordor and wondering if he was talking about jive or ebonics.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 01 2019, @12:42PM
That is probably not the problem. Few people are offended dismissive or have negative emotions towards some character on a TV show or in a book. If you asked them if they thought someone named Daenerys would attack them you'd be laughed at.
Now try that with names of historically evil people.
"Do you know how to pronounce muhammad?"
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @05:24PM (2 children)
In the future, the religious words will be gone but in their place we will have terms like "cisgendered", Sie, "nonbinary", and all that.
And you will be forced to use those terms or at least never question them outloud -- just like religious terms used to be.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @05:34PM
So, what you're saying is, 5000 years ago, the more stable members of the community were asking, "What faggotry is this?" while that crazy tribe was building altars and stuff.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 01 2019, @02:28AM
And don't forget to throw in a helping dollop of prudishness. Seems all the rage with this new religion of the regressive left.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @06:09PM (15 children)
"As Jesus died on the cross, he cried in Aramaic..."
Do you have any proof this Jesus person even existed?
(Score: 3, Interesting) by HiThere on Wednesday July 31 2019, @06:31PM (1 child)
That was my original position, but after a long discussion with someone I decided that there was no reason to presume that the original records would have survived. But it appears definitely true that he did not appear significant to Suetonius, the Roman historian contemporary who traveled in Palestine and wrote of his travels. There's something that *could* be a reference to him, but ???
My original position was that he was the Jewish Underground's Adam Selene. After reviewing the evidence that would be expected to have survived, however, I'm forced to admit that he may have existed, and not be the resurrection of an Essene story.
P.S.: Accepting his existence doesn't mean accepting that either his actions or his words were accurately reported. The probabilities for that are a lot weaker.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @07:17PM
Contemporary??? I wouldn't call a guy who wrote about him SEVENTY years after his supposed existence, a contemporary. I don't "accept" anything. Show me proof or shut up.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @08:17PM
You'll find people who'll dig out the references in Josephus, problems are
1. One Josephus reference was obviously 'fucked with' by Christians at some point in history to give their sky fairy avatar story some historical 'veracity'.
2. The other refers to James, the brother of Jesus...which goes against some of the Christian sky fairy mythos..
Josephus, being a Jew (albeit one regarded as being a bit of an Romanised 'Uncle Tom') doesn't refer anywhere to Jesus being the Judaic 'Messiah', you might argue that the '...A wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man..' implies that the Jesus he was talking about was more than just a man...cue angelic choirs..he is the messiah! , feh, could also imply (a la Python) it was a woman with a false beard..or indeed, a very naughty boy....
Throw into the mix, Jesus was a common name back then...Josephus was writing about what the Romans regarded as 'Troublesome Jews', at a stretch, Christians could argue that the Jesus mentioned was a leader of the Judaic sect which became what we know today as Christianity, once the Romans had fucked with it, but as far as I know the Jews are still waiting on their Messiah to appear, the guy Josephus mentions?, he wasn't it..
(Score: 3, Interesting) by istartedi on Wednesday July 31 2019, @09:13PM (11 children)
Do you have any proof for the hanging gardens of Babylon? Hamurabai? The Colossus of Rhodes? 2000 years from now: "There were 1000 foot towers in the city that stood for decades until terrorists flew planes into them". Yeah, tell us another fantasy story. "We had video, but it didn't survive the Great Restore from Backup in the 24th century".
Appended to the end of comments you post. Max: 120 chars.
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Wednesday July 31 2019, @10:18PM (10 children)
Historians do not claim proof for the existance of the Hanging Gardens of Babylon at all, in fact they may have been a myth.
There is proof of the existence of the Colossus of Rhodes, from the Wikipedia article:
As for Hamurabai, the evidence for his existence is pretty widely accepted, but even if he is just some sort of myth, no-one is claiming he "saved the world" or came back from the dead are they?
If are going to make extraordinary claims, you need to produce extraordinary evidence, and as far as I can see, the evidence for the existence of an actual historical Jesus is pretty thin.
(Score: 1) by istartedi on Wednesday July 31 2019, @10:45PM (6 children)
As for Hamurabai, the evidence for his existence is pretty widely accepted, but even if he is just some sort of myth, no-one is claiming he "saved the world" or came back from the dead are they?
Do we deify him? No, but apparently he has been in the past [wikipedia.org].
He was a king so you'll have a much easier time finding evidence to support his existence since rulers would literally have things carved in stone that signified their reign. Proving that any agitator in ancient Palestine existed is, by comparison, a daunting task but because Jesus stands out in having started an enduring movement, there is actually some support [history.com]
Aside from this, where do you stand on the existence of Buddha and Mohammad? Not their divinity, just their existence. Do you feel they are more or less likely to have existed than Jesus, and if so, why?
Appended to the end of comments you post. Max: 120 chars.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by PartTimeZombie on Thursday August 01 2019, @12:04AM (5 children)
As far as Buddha and Mohammad go, I have no idea about Buddha as I know almost nothing about Buddhism.
Mohammad definitely existed, and we know that because of the many references to him from (and this is important to historians) different sources.
Sources from almost every culture that existed in the Middle East refer to Mohammad and the Islamic culture that grew up.
That is the difference with Jesus, there is almost no corroborating evidence that he actually existed, and the history.com article you linked does the usual thing:
to which I reply, they would, wouldn't they?
It seems to me that a certain amount of faith is needed to believe in the existence of Jesus as an actual person who lived, and historians don't rely on faith.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 01 2019, @12:14AM (1 child)
Mohammad was also a published writer. In the March 652 a.d. iss u e of Goat Fuckers Monthly, he wrote a letter to the editor complaining that his goat had bad breath but was still better looking than his wife.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 01 2019, @12:45PM
Well, to be fair his wife was probably 10 years old at that point so who knows maybe she would be prettier when she passed puberty. Give it another 5 or so years.
(Score: 1) by istartedi on Thursday August 01 2019, @03:23AM (2 children)
This position seems very "heads I win, tails you lose". What, pray tell, would you say if the only people defending the existence of Jesus were *not* Biblical scholars?
I didn't know much about Buddha either, so I googled it. It's a lot like Jesus--very little Buddhist writing until about 200 years after his life.
The difference might be that Mohammad engaged in conquest. War and its leaders create a lot of press, which is what becomes history. Jesus and Buddha, OTOH, created turning points within spiritual traditions. That doesn't impact the people who ultimately write history in the same way that an invading army does.
Appended to the end of comments you post. Max: 120 chars.
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Thursday August 01 2019, @03:45AM (1 child)
I would say "What's the evidence?" and if they showed me those passages from Josephus that seem to be about the sum total of evidence outside bits of the New Testament, I would continue to fail to take them at face value.
If there was any justice, Christianity would be called Paulism, because it was Paul who started preaching to gentiles. Jesus was pretty much all about trying to get Jews to be good Jews.
Christianity would have continued to be just one of many Middle Eastern religions practised in the Roman Empire if it hadn't become politically powerful during the 4th and 5th centuries, and then made the other religions illegal.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 01 2019, @09:24AM
If you look at the Josephus quotes about Jesus, one mentions he had both Jewish and Gentile/Greek followers.
Now, admittedly, it's the passage most likely to have been fucked with by Christians to suit their ends, but, it might explain the degree of hostility recorded in the stories by the Jewish authorities to this Jewish sect, Judaism being an exclusive club and all that, but excluding thIs 'sky fairy's chosen people' guff and nonsense, at that time they were fighting foreign influences on their culture in the shape of occupying Roman forces and their Greek teachers..so anyone opening up their club to foreigners would be a bit of a 'political' liability.
I'm quite happy to accept the possibility that there was a Judaic sect which might have had a leader of the name Jesus, I might also accept that for politically expedient reasons, the Jews and Romans, either/or/both executed this leader, the sect, however, carried on, and at the point of the leaders death probably became more of a cult as I don't think they'd be welcome at temple, and, just like cults today, they attracted every gonif on the make in sight (hello there 'Paul', 'Matthew', 'Mark' and the rest of the motley crew..and look at the antics of the Popes, Bishops and Cardinals of the Roman branch)..and over the next couple of millennia this fun bunch of cultists ended up becoming the the fractious Christianity we know and loathe today..
(Score: 5, Informative) by AthanasiusKircher on Thursday August 01 2019, @04:04AM (2 children)
And the extant evidence for most ancient people is "pretty thin" by today's standards. There simply are incredibly few documents from ancient times that have survived.
Note that I'm not saying there is any credible evidence of some guy that performed miracles and rose from the dead. I'm saying that there appears to be a dude name something like "Jesus" a.k.a. "Christus/Chrestus" who wandered around ancient Palestine, got associated with a new religious cult branch of Judaism, and was likely executed by Pontius Pilate. There are a few tangential references to this figure by third-party sources who were not in this dude's cult and even outside of his immediate municipality, which is more than you can say of a lot of famous ancient people. There is little evidence that he was hugely famous in his lifetime (not moreso than other "messiah" claimants in this region at this time).
But I've had this debate a number of times on the internet, and I'm tired of it. It's not an "extraordinary claim" to say that some dude who wasn't very well-known during his lifetime didn't leave behind a lot of records that still exist 2000 years later. This is the same crap you see in the Shakespeare authorship debates, or sometimes even in debates around other people who are now very famous but weren't that well-known during their lifetimes (e.g., authorship questions or basic information about some works by J.S. Bach). The fact that we have ANY corroborating sources outside his immediate cult is actually already an extraordinary find, if you know anything about ancient historiography.
Really, my perspective after researching this and seeing the opinions of a lot of ancient scholars is that most serious scholars treat the "historical Jesus never existed" argument as something bordering on conspiracy theory in terms of how ridiculous it is. I'm not talking about biblical scholars -- I'm talking about scholars who aren't in any way invested in Christianity but who understand how rare ancient documentation is. I mean, any serious historian will likely admit that its POSSIBLE he didn't exist, but it's also possible that Socrates never existed. Or any other number of historical figures for whom we mostly only have contemporary accounts from the immediate circle of that figure (with a couple tangential references elsewhere).
The most convincing argument I've ever heard is a quite simple one: anyone who knows anything about the early church heresy debates know that there were a number of early Christian sects that sought to prove Jesus was not human or "never existed in the flesh" somehow. They desperately wanted to believe that -- because Jesus as a person conflicted with their idea of divinity -- but instead of just claiming it directly, they came up with all sorts of crazy theological justifications about how this dude was "not really" human or "completely" human or "was always God" or "not of the same essence" as the earthly world or whatever.
People were around who supposedly met this dude. Some of their grandchildren were likely still around when these first serious debates within the Christian cult came about. If there were ANY hint even passed down vaguely that Jesus hadn't actually been a real person within this cult, many of these sects would have pounced on that notion. But we have no historical evidence of any of that type of argument happening in these early debates. Why not? The only likely possibilities are: (1) some dude named Jesus actually existed, leading to a very inconvenient fact for many early Christian sects who wished that a real human acting as a "god" wasn't something that posed a significant theological conundrum for them, or (2) the gospel writers pulled off perhaps the greatest conspiracy ever in the history of the world, dragging along some weird third-party references in other non-cultish sources with them, and nobody who lived in Palestine at that time ever hinted at the truth to the large group of early Christians who would find it incredibly useful if Jesus hadn't actually ever appeared in the flesh.
Honestly, I'm more likely to buy a story of some dude rising from the dead than believing the latter conspiracy could have been successful given the historical context.
(Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Thursday August 01 2019, @04:20AM (1 child)
One final thing I'll just note is that my interest in this is primarily because I'm interested in the growth of conspiracy theories and fringe theories on the internet. The "Christ myth theory" is a theory like the Shakespeare authorship question that has always been "fringe" within actual scholarship and among people who actually understand a lot about how historical sources and historiography works. But such theories have grown a lot on the internet. I think the Jesus thing gets traction because there's a strong atheist contingent among folks on the internet who have been more aggressive than many atheists are in real life. (Note that I'm among these people who would claim to be atheist, though I've admitted this to very few people in real life.)
But they're not content to just show that the Bible is steaming pile of inconsistent nonsense in places -- no, they want to latch on to the wackiest fringe theories and say, "See, Jesus didn't even exist!"
As I said in my post, I'm not at all saying such an argument is impossible. But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, especially when you're talking about non-famous, non-aristocratic people in a far-flung region off the main radar of the main record-keeping empires of ancient times. I truly wish the skeptics and atheists would devote their energies elsewhere rather than trying to promote fringe theories.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 01 2019, @09:02PM
Well, two things. First, of course the academia behind a historical Jesus says he is historical. For quite a long time, such thoughts could mean literal execution. Then, even when it was allowed, you then have the "this is fringe because no one ever talks about it; because no one talks about it, it is fringe." thing. In addition, in many ways, the repercussions of him being mythic goes straight to the core of their identity.
But it is true, that many atheists also have a "show me the proof" attitude. In addition, most Christians hold the Jesus narrative to be literally true. So the combination idea of "show me the proof that the Jesus narrative is literally true" naturally falls out of such an idea.
(Score: 5, Funny) by DannyB on Wednesday July 31 2019, @06:41PM (4 children)
5 Languages That Are Probably Doomed [dice.com]
Every performance optimization is a grate wait lifted from my shoulders.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @08:11PM
#6 Aramaic
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @08:40PM (2 children)
One of my life goals is to outlive Larry and spit on his grave before I croak.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 31 2019, @10:33PM
Guido van Rossum, Is that you? Didn’t know your were a soylent fan!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 01 2019, @12:47PM
Ken sent me.
(Score: 2) by mendax on Wednesday July 31 2019, @11:32PM (3 children)
Is Aramaic really doomed? Yes, it is true that the people who speak it natively are disappearing, rendering it no longer a living language, but is it not true that there will always be people who learn this language in universities as Biblical scholars? After all, significant parts of the Old Testament are written in Aramaic. There is some comfort in knowing that all is not lost I suppose. The loss is not quite as radical as, say, a language that has never been written down going silent forever.
It's really quite a simple choice: Life, Death, or Los Angeles.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 01 2019, @04:38AM (2 children)
The study of the Talmud, which is mostly written in Aramaic, is s central part of the Jewish religion and is not going away.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 01 2019, @01:07PM (1 child)
Muslims have a plan to fix that.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 01 2019, @01:49PM
My money is on the lawyers. In any conflict they always win.
(Score: 2) by Nobuddy on Thursday August 01 2019, @03:45PM (1 child)
Dead languages of the past are lost because no one really knows how to speak them anymore. There are no recordings or pronunciation guides, so we just have those who can read it, and those who attempt to make a spoken variant.
these languages now can be recorded. And should be. A full pronunciation primer in audio format needs to be made (may already be) and stored away securely. Then they will never be lost.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 03 2019, @02:27PM
After reading how brutal Australian aboriginal lives were I feel no need in participating in the preservation of their culture