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Jakarta Is Crowded And Sinking, So Indonesia Is Moving Its Capital To Borneo
Indonesian President Joko Widodo says his country will create a new capital city on the island of Borneo, revealing new details about his plan to move the central government out of Jakarta. The capital's current location faces a number of problems, including the fact that it's sinking.
Widodo's announcement Monday comes months after he said he wanted to move the capital, seeking a place that can offer a break from Jakarta's environmental challenges as well as its relentlessly gridlocked traffic.
While rising seawater levels from climate change are a widespread concern for island and coastal areas worldwide, experts say Jakarta has played a central role in its own predicament. "Jakarta's problems are largely man-made," NPR's Merrit Kennedy reported earlier this year. "The area's large population has extracted so much groundwater that it has impacted the ground levels, and many surface water resources are polluted."
Jakarta has a population of around 10 million, with 20 million more in the greater metropolitan area.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 26 2019, @11:29PM (6 children)
Do they want ten million Indonesians moving to their tropical paradise? Are the pygmies of Borneo going to get trampled underfoot? At least the Jakartans aren't going to fuck up Bali.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Monday August 26 2019, @11:41PM (4 children)
This explains it pretty well:
The capital move won't cause 10 million people to move. Although maybe the population will just grow and hit that number again in the new area.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_past_and_future_population#Estimates_between_the_years_2020_and_2050_(in_thousands) [wikipedia.org]
2020: 279,080,000
2050: 327,282,000
2100: ???
As for opposition:
It could be a great economic opportunity for people in those cities.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 5, Insightful) by c0lo on Tuesday August 27 2019, @04:03AM (1 child)
Sure.
Just don't forget to kiss the orangutans [grida.no] goodbye, the majority of the 104,700 still in existence are located on the Borneo island.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by PocketSizeSUn on Wednesday August 28 2019, @04:36PM
Did you know that the Orang Hutan is the Bahasa indonesian name for the Orangutan?
It literally means 'Person' 'Forest' and since the 'H' is silent in Hutan the pronunciation is the same.
My guess is 'someone' has purchased large tracts of land in the area where the resulting city would be developed.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Nuke on Tuesday August 27 2019, @08:47AM
If those people think it is a great economic opportunity to live in the capital, why hadn't they moved to Jakarta already? Why wait for the capital to come to them? Looks like plenty of other people (30 million) already had that idea, and that was the trouble.
(Score: 2) by driverless on Wednesday August 28 2019, @04:53AM
It's also worked OK for other countries, e.g. Australia with Canberra, Brazil with Brasília, etc. There were some issues, but that's to be expected with a civic works project on this scale. So perfectly feasible and a sensible move.
(Score: 2) by DeVilla on Saturday August 31 2019, @12:35AM
It's bad enough that Jakarta is sinking. If they aren't careful, Bali may capsize.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday August 26 2019, @11:38PM (12 children)
It cost $30B to rebuild Miami after hurricane Andrew - almost 30 years ago now.
Question is: will all 260+ million Indonesians fit on Borneo, and still have space left over for the palm oil plantations and Orangutan shelter?
Trivia from the past: The sultan of Brunei (on Borneo) was the richest man in the world not too long ago. He got it the usual way: oil.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 27 2019, @12:08AM (1 child)
I'm pretty sure their labor is cheaper and so are the building codes. You'll see empty coffee cans used for rebar.
(Score: 2) by PocketSizeSUn on Wednesday August 28 2019, @04:40PM
Basic construction (concrete and steel) runs about 1/10th to cost due to cheaper labor and material. Wood is generally expensive (similar in pricing to usa costing), although the wood types are generally prized here (teak and ironwood).
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 27 2019, @08:44AM (1 child)
That's because it will cost hell of a lot more than $33B. Probably more than $100B but $70+B will be recouped through selling of clearcut virgin forest. Why slash and burn when you can sell?
Coincidentally, Amazon is burning but in Bolivia the "environmentally friendly native-led government" just enacted a law that if you burn the forest, you get to claim the land.
http://www.bad-ag.info/bolivia-legalises-and-expands-savage-deforestation-for-china-and-russia-beef-deals/ [bad-ag.info]
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday August 27 2019, @10:55AM
That's not far-off from Florida tax law: Agricultural exemption granted to land which has been "put into productive use" which, until just last year, exclusively meant clearing out the native vegetation and wildlife. Ag exemption gets the owner a 90% reduction in property taxes.
20 years ago, I argued with the tax collector that harvest of native saw palmetto berries (which does not require total habitat destruction, but is still more invasive than not harvesting the berries) should be considered agricultural use of the land. He quoted current law to me at the time which translated to: NO. Apparently, others took up the argument in the capital and 20 years later land owners can now claim ag exemption for saw palmetto berry harvesting. The pace of progress.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Tuesday August 27 2019, @10:14AM (1 child)
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by PocketSizeSUn on Wednesday August 28 2019, @04:45PM
Pork is Haram Only to the Muslims in Indonesia. It's is pretty easily available anywhere in the greater Jakarta region as well as Bali (where Pork is raised by the Hindu majority) and the Island of Flores which is predominantly Christian. Also there are lots of wild pigs running around in the forests which are frequently not considered Haram by the locals :P.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday August 27 2019, @03:40PM (5 children)
Doesn't mean anything since US real estate in Miami is vastly overpriced and US labor is pricey. Then there's the natural stupendous inflated costs of doing anything with US federal money. You're probably looking at an order of magnitude (which is the multiplier I use for most US government activity), taking all those effects in hand trying to move a national capitol into the the middle of an existing city. I think the better analogy is more like moving Washington, DC to an empty place in central/south Florida for $300 billion. It's still cheap, but at least the real price will be within an order of magnitude of it.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday August 27 2019, @04:55PM (4 children)
Interestingly: the cost of real estate has little to nothing to do with the cost of storm damage repair, and my experience of home construction/repair labor in Dade county was that it was damn reasonable as compared with Houston or North Florida, often less than 50% of the cost in those alternate markets. Materials costs are pretty flat across the US, with Home Despot setting the rates.
Also: The $30B post-Andrew rebuilding was not financed by the federal government, it was private insurance - said insurers who cried mommy and made the federal government step in and take over flood and hurricane hazard insurance afterwards.
As for bad analogies: Washington DC to Jakarta? Did you look in the wrong end of the telescope? US GDP 19T, Indonesia 1T. US Federal Revenue $3.3T, Indonesia $110B - so, just going by the size of the federal government budgets alone, if they can move Jakarta for $30B, a similar move of DC should be closer to $1T, assuming similar building codes, infrastructure buildout, etc.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday August 27 2019, @06:53PM (3 children)
I would characterize that as "wrongly" not "interestingly". One isn't going to sell cheap used cars on real estate that costs $100k per acre. The cost is the ante for the value of what's put on the property.
It isn't labor that gets washed out with the storm surge.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday August 27 2019, @07:28PM (2 children)
Maybe from the perspective of Ted Kaczynski's cabin, you could be correct. 2003 Miami - water heater replacement, cost of water heater +$75 to the licensed plumber who put it in. 2005 Houston - water heater replacement, cost of water heater +$200 to the licensed plumber who not only put in that water heater but also did several other jobs on the property at the same time. Similar cost differences for siding repair, painting, window replacement, etc. Getting a hurricane damaged home fixed up in Miami was significantly cheaper per square foot than the equivalent repair work in Houston - even though the home in Miami sold for twice as much per square foot. Stick that in your economic theory and smoke it. I attribute it to the Hialeah community which provided competitive labor throughout Dade county, whereas Houston and North Florida are populated by proud anglo tradesmen who won't get out of bed for less than $500 per day.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday August 27 2019, @07:50PM (1 child)
So a plumber who did less work cost less than a plumber who did more work?
What is "equivalent repair work"?
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday August 27 2019, @08:39PM
No, read carefully: "water heater replacement, cost of water heater +$200" other work was billed separately and amounted to a total of more than $500 for the trip.
Removal of old water heater, install of new one - pretty damn equivalent. Our houses have always been in the 40-60 year old range, so we've got lots of similar jobs. In Miami when I'd call in outside labor it was (almost) always worthwhile to pay the professional to do the job, in Houston and North Florida I'd frequently send them away because they were just lazy greedy bastards. Upgrade 40' run of wiring from 12 gauge to 10 gauge, $150 upcharge on the job (increased bid over the 12 gauge price) - 50' box of 10 gauge wire selling for $50 at the time - go screw yourselves.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 27 2019, @12:04AM
Birth rate is at replacement rate now
https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/IDN/indonesia/fertility-rate [macrotrends.net]
But it population won’t actually level off till 2050
https://www.populationpyramid.net/indonesia/2050/ [populationpyramid.net]
(Score: 2) by arslan on Tuesday August 27 2019, @12:09AM (16 children)
Borneo is a logger's paradise. What's not said here is how much logging will be done to build the new capital and who will pocket that money at the expense of our shared global environment.
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Tuesday August 27 2019, @12:37AM (15 children)
That is very true. Old-growth tropical hardwood forests, lots and lots of corruption and pressure to supply building materials.
That all sounds like the end of Orangutans in the wild.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday August 27 2019, @12:59AM (13 children)
The Orangutans are fucked, and not just the ones locked up in brothels.
No human being on this planet has the balls and power to stand up and say that we will not rape the ecosystem until it dies of suffocation. We have the technology, what we lack is the political will.
http://5050by2150.wordpress.com [wordpress.com]
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Tuesday August 27 2019, @02:04AM
That does seem to be the problem.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 27 2019, @02:19AM (1 child)
>The concept is very simple: reserve half of the Earth for nature by 2150
OMG what a pipe dream. You do know world population will be peaking exactly by that date? Nature is going to be lucky to get 5%. look what is happening in the Amazon
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 27 2019, @02:50AM
https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelshellenberger/2019/08/26/why-everything-they-say-about-the-amazon-including-that-its-the-lungs-of-the-world-is-wrong/ [forbes.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 27 2019, @05:19AM (1 child)
what does "political will" even mean?
people are selfish and short-sighted.
people will vote for politicians who appear to aim at improving people's personal well-being.
(and afterwards you have to deal with lying politicians etc).
first you educate, then you try to convince.
most people don't understand the implications of losing bio-diversity.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday August 27 2019, @05:01PM
Most people don't want to understand the implications... if they understood, they might have to feel bad about their actions, and people don't like to feel bad, so they choose ignorance - whether consciously, or unconsciously.
At the level of national politics, more players pretend to be ignorant than actually are...
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Mer on Tuesday August 27 2019, @07:32AM (7 children)
This is not a good idea. The most destructive human life gets is when it's grouped up in tight quarters. Because cities kill the earth, hog the money, attract even more people and need heavy infrastructure for power, water and food.
Unless you want to go full malthus and reduce the population with a good old culling, the solution is to let humans spread and use modern communication technology so they don't think like they lives aren't worth living outside of the city.
Shut up!, he explained.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday August 27 2019, @10:41AM (5 children)
Nobody wants to do this, but it is coming. We are closer to a forcible culling than we are to Malthus - timewise.
How does that seem to be working out so far? We've had instant global communication for well over 100 years now, cheap jet travel to anywhere for 60, and all I see happening in that period is a population explosion - "trends of voluntary birth control" are the lie in the big picture, we've had the pill since the 1960s - and what has happened to world population since then?
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday August 27 2019, @08:00PM (4 children)
You already know [soylentnews.org] that is false. So why do you keep repeating it? From the link:
It's interesting how the narrative continues even in the face of evidence.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday August 27 2019, @08:43PM (3 children)
Nope, what I know is that your selective comprehension firmly believes you have proven something, from this side of the conversation you have only proven anything to yourself.
It is interesting how your narrative continues to extrapolate and infer the future, and as the future rolls on the goalposts continue to push back for zero population growth. Take your arguments back to 1975, they were making the same ones back then, see how well they've turned out in the ensuing 44 years. But, no, you've got your evidence, I must be wrong.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday August 27 2019, @09:29PM (2 children)
Ok, fine so you didn't learn from the last time.
There are objective facts out there such as declining population for developed world populations that are beyond second generation immigrants.
Indeed. That's how empirical argument works. It doesn't matter how explodingly population growth looks to you when it's not.
Actually, the opposite happened. My narrative continues to grow stronger as all national level populations continue to decline in fertility.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday August 28 2019, @12:27AM (1 child)
And you never learn, either.
I'll sign off with these: your empirical evidence is attempting to predict the future, using the same flawed tools and arguments that were predicting future Zero Population Growth / peak population of 6 to 8.5 billion when they were making these arguments back in the 1970s.
All predictive models are uncertain and flawed, but one thing is certain: if you tell the masses that everything is fine - no need to worry, enjoy the party, they're gonna eat that shit up just like they did for climate change up until about 5-10 years ago. While nobody knows the future, one thing is certain: present perception influences outcome, and pushing the "party on people! it's gonna be just fine" picture is indeed pushing the future toward a Soylent solution.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday August 28 2019, @12:33PM
That's a pretty weak parting shot. First, who was predicting future zero population growth in the 1970s? For example, the author of The Population Bomb [wikipedia.org] wasn't predicting that. Instead, he was predicting much as you, a Malthusian outcome with population collapse by now - unless of course, there was undemocratic, ruthless population control implemented. The control wasn't implemented yet the population collapse didn't happen.
Meanwhile we have seen radical declines in birth rate and human fertility worldwide. The real world is fitting that model despite your claims to the contrary.
This isn't the first time that someone has claimed you need to fool the population in order to save it. The same game has been played with climate change. It works to some degree.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday August 27 2019, @07:53PM
(Score: 2) by PocketSizeSUn on Wednesday August 28 2019, @04:47PM
Not much building materials for housing or other real-estate but 'boat' building yes.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 27 2019, @01:06AM (3 children)
Brazil built a new capital in the rainforest, Ivory Coast moved to capital #4 when the leader wanted his birthplace to be capital, Nigeria moved to a new capital. Makes sense to leave the overcrowded old capital behind and start a new one. Eventually it will attract migrants again, but the old capital will still have much economic activity to give many people a living.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 27 2019, @04:47AM
Your list is entirely negroidal countries. Indonesians are white except for 107k orange men in the forest.
(Score: 2) by istartedi on Tuesday August 27 2019, @05:01AM
The USA didn't use Washington as the official capital until it was ready in 1800. Before that, Congress convened in a number of places. Most notably, Philadelphia for about 10 years.
Appended to the end of comments you post. Max: 120 chars.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Zinho on Tuesday August 27 2019, @07:07AM
The jury's still out on Brasilia. Short list of factoids:
* It's not in the rainforest; the terrain is more like grassland than forest. Just because it's central doesn't mean it's jungle.
* Whether it's attracting migrants or not is debatable. The city was planned out to have a population of 500,000; today it's hovering around 300,000. Also, 800,000 workers commute into and out of the city daily by bus because someone's gotta mow the lawns, but laborers can't afford housing in the city.
* Since all of the buildings were built within 5 years of each other, they're all aging together and the Brazilian government may soon face a crisis when the repair costs all hit at once.
* There is no industry in the city to speak of. Its only export is eggs, all other food and goods are imported.
* Most people who study such things consider Brasilia to be an urban planning failure. [duckduckgo.com].
You are correct that Rio de Janeiro still has plenty of people living there and a thriving economy. If Brasilia is abandoned as a government center, however, it's likely to become a ghost town.
"Space Exploration is not endless circles in low earth orbit." -Buzz Aldrin
(Score: 4, Informative) by Mykl on Tuesday August 27 2019, @01:27AM (2 children)
It will be interesting to see if we continue to use the name Borneo for the island in 20-30 years.
While most of the world knows it as Borneo (home to the Malaysian states of Sabah and Sarawak, the country of Brunei and the Indonesian state of Kalimantan), the Indonesians tend to call the entire island Kalimantan. You'll see that the word "Borneo" doesn't appear in Widodo's tweet in TFA. I don't know if that's a subtle attempt to muscle in on Malaysia and Brunei or not, but it will be interesting to watch.
I visited Sabah in 2004 - amazing place but it was quite disturbing to see endless miles of Palm Oil plantations when flying over the eastern part of the state.
(Score: 2) by loonycyborg on Tuesday August 27 2019, @06:41AM
It's the largest island Indonesia has land on, hopefully it will sink last.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday August 27 2019, @10:49AM
I bought some acreage on a river in Central Florida about 20 years ago - academically, I knew the phosphate mines were located just 30 miles north of it, I have even driven through them - deep in mine country - dozens, if not hundreds of times. It wasn't until I was flying over at 30,000 feet, not sure where I was, that I spotted the vast expanse of strip mines and was thinking: where am I, West Virginia??? just seconds later: oh, no, look, there's our land, just downriver.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Nuke on Tuesday August 27 2019, @09:07AM (1 child)
Anak Krakatoa is rising about 5 m per year, currently about 300m above sea level at the peak. So no worries about rising sea level there. There is even a bit of forest to hack down to make a site for the new capital, win-win.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday August 27 2019, @04:06PM
I keep hearing climate change is a myth. Invented by China, I heard from someone.
So why are they reacting to something that isn't even real?
When trying to solve a problem don't ask who suffers from the problem, ask who profits from the problem.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 27 2019, @10:46AM
Human economy and cancer, for example.