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Older, larger companies benefit from not investing in worker safety, study finds:
When it's cheaper to pay nominal fines for violating workplace regulations than to provide safe workplaces, that indicates current safety regulations are not enough to protect workers, researchers say.
Oregon State University Public Health and Human Sciences associate professor Anthony Veltri was one of several authors on the study, an international collaboration between Mark Pagell, Mary Parkinson, Michalis Louis and Brian Fynes of University College Dublin in Ireland; John Gray of the Ohio State University in Columbus, Ohio; and Frank Wiengarten of Universitat Ramon Llull in Spain.
"Organizations that do not provide a safe workplace gain an economic advantage over those that do," said Veltri, who studies occupational safety and health. "The goal of improving the longevity of a business conflicts with the goal of protecting the workforce."
The study, published last week in the journal Management Science, looked at both short- and long-term survival of more than 100,000 Oregon-based organizations over a 25-year period. In this study, "survival" was defined as ongoing operations, even in the face of an ownership change.
[...] Although there are businesses that provide safe workplaces and also improve their competitiveness, such businesses are not the norm, the study says. And while organizations seeking to maximize their survival are unlikely to harm workers on purpose, they are correct in calculating that the costs of preventing all harm to workers is higher than the cost of not doing so.
(Score: 2, Offtopic) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 14 2020, @10:05AM (41 children)
Anyone here who thinks safety policies were ever about the worker has never worked in industrial America. About 99% of the time the word "safety" comes up, the workers groan, because they know it's going to mean some bloody stupid rule applied in a blanket fashion instead of only where it makes sense or is even viable. And spotting violations won't get you a gold star from your fellow worker that you saw doing something unsafe, it will get that fellow worker that was involved in the unsafe situation fired.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Thursday May 14 2020, @11:31AM (29 children)
I can't possibly disagree, because I do enough groaning of my own. Stupid shits like wearing a damned seatbelt on a forklift, FFS.
Then again - we have serious safety violations that are never addressed.
The single best example I can give, are water hoses, air hoses, power cords, and conduit on the floor. Walking between machines is genuinely hazardous. Every single one of them are OSHA violations, as well as being criminally stupid. It doesn't take an IQ larger than your shoe size to understand that they are all tripping hazards. It might take a slightly higher IQ to understand that walking on these items tends to damage them. Walking on damaged power cords and conduit (some of it as low as 24V DC, some as high as 480V 3ph AC) can damage them. A damaged electrical circuit, being walked on, just might fry someone's ass.
Someone might ask, "Why hasn't anyone called OSHA?"
The answer would be, "OSHA has been called. The state OSHA people called the company, and requested an appointment to look at the plant. The appointment was made, the plant was cleaned up, and all those tripping hazards were repaired as well as could be, without actually picking them up off the floor. When OSHA saw that crap, company reps explained that "No one is allowed to walk behind the machines, so they don't trip over them."
OSHA bought that nonsense, no fines were issued, the report said that the company is in compliance with OSHA regulations.
And, I have no idea how much money the OSHA reps put into their pockets when they left the plant.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 14 2020, @11:57AM (20 children)
One of my favorites is requiring electricians to wear leather gloves to keep from scuffing their knuckles while they're having to handle tiny screws. Makes the job take 8-12 times as long and only saves them from needing some bactine and a bandaid at most.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday May 14 2020, @12:12PM (1 child)
Yeah, that's stupid, but you missed part of it.
The electricians are supposed to be wearing rubber gloves next to their skin, and the leather gloves go over the rubber gloves. I'm lucky to pick up the screwdriver, forget about the screws!!
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 14 2020, @12:31PM
Naw, they're supposed to have the piece of equipment locked out with their own personal lock so rubber gloves aren't necessary. For most things anyhow.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Thursday May 14 2020, @01:08PM (16 children)
An electrician replaced the meter can on my house once... handled the inlet wires with leather gloves - live - while standing on an 8' step-ladder. He explained that the alternative was climbing the pole, twice, to throw the breaker and that the live wires were safer. Made sense to me, I'm sure OSHA would have had some other much more expensive solution that didn't really remove the risk overall.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Muad'Dave on Thursday May 14 2020, @01:13PM (15 children)
He didn't have a hot stick [mitchellinstrument.com]? That's the easy way.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday May 14 2020, @01:27PM (14 children)
Might have had one in the truck, but didn't use it - seemed like he had just about everything you could want in the truck.
This was a typical 2 phase 220V service drop that included a mechanical support cable, so when he took the live wires loose from the weather head (one at a time, capping them with insulator) they only hung down a foot or so from the support cable.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday May 14 2020, @04:50PM (3 children)
He was cheating, but he probably had a couple secrets. Ladder was probably a fiberglass ladder, certified for use when working with electricity. He was probably wearing insulated boots,, with composite toes - but any leather boot with an insulating material in the sole does much the same. And, 220 is just 110V on two legs, unless you complete a circuit between those two legs. I'm admitting nothing, but I may have done similar in the past. :^)
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday May 14 2020, @05:37PM (1 child)
My grandmother's garage was miswired such that you could pull the fuses and the outlets were still hot... Granddad had a really old refrigerator down there with a rubber mat - if you didn't stand on the rubber mat while touching it you got zapped, I think he liked it that way, all he kept in there was his beer.
Anyway, after he passed, I went to install a motion sensor light so granny wouldn't have to reach around to find the switch and possibly tumble down the stairs, like Granddad had more than once... That was a fun experience, fuses out and the lines still hot trying to get wire nuts secure in a 4" box, while on a ladder. Got it done, never caught fire so I suppose I did it well enough.
The scary thing about the house feed isn't so much the voltage, it's those thick ass cables connected to what's probably a 400 amp breaker back on the pole - granny's little lamp wires would pop and spark, but those things could weld your watch onto themselves with a tap.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 3, Informative) by Acabatag on Thursday May 14 2020, @08:20PM
I had a job testing icemaker valves for an appliance OEM once. My job included wiring up valves on a manifold over a sink with water hookup. The valves had 120 volt solenoid coils and there was a switch box to select which valve to energize for a timed flow test.
I happened one day to notice that the switch box was wired backwards. The neutral was being switched and for weeks I had been wiring up the coils with the hot side always on. The manifold was brass and grounded to building plumbing. It turned out that a clueless intern had wired up the switch box.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday May 15 2020, @11:28AM
Pffft, we used to grab other students and slap live voltage with the back of our knuckles back in AIT several times a day. There's plenty of ways to deal with electricity without getting yourself killed to death, you just have to pay attention.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 14 2020, @06:24PM (2 children)
Yep. He might go his entire career never suffering from a workplace injury. Or he could become 1 of the 150+ who end up dying in any given year. [esfi.org] And sure, I've worked circuits hot also in my time. In retrospect, though, I've come to realize that my wife probably cares a lot more about my getting home than the company ever will for having saved them time.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday May 14 2020, @06:50PM
The interesting thing to me was: it wasn't saving time, it was actually saving overall risk to work on the hot circuit, when the alternative is climbing an old 30' pole with tons of previous climber spike holes in it (makes it more likely to slip), twice at least.
Now, he could have put the climbing job off on somebody else by calling the power company to do it for him, but that still leaves the risk on somebody.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 14 2020, @11:33PM
I've worked with live circuits a few times. But, the only times I've been in real danger were when I touched things that weren't supposed to be live or I wasn't even expecting to come into contact with something that carries electricity.
Working with hot wires works out as long as you've done an adequate job of insulating yourself. And in many cases, it's not even getting shocked that's fatal, it's the fall after having been shocked. Years ago an electrician working on a neighboring building got hit with a significant voltage and was thrown off the ladder. It was the injuries from the fall that were fatal, not the shock.
(Score: 2) by Muad'Dave on Thursday May 14 2020, @06:29PM (6 children)
Messing with 220V service entrance cables is dangerous since there's no overcurrent protection until the fuse on the transformer primary.
I'm not sure I'm right, but I consider US power to be split single phase [wikipedia.org], not true '2 phase' [wikipedia.org]. 2 phase would have 2 conductors 90 degrees out of phase instead of 180, with or without a neutral.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday May 14 2020, @06:41PM (5 children)
Yeah, we're split single, but precious few people understand what that means, and fewer still use the correct terminology.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday May 15 2020, @02:21AM (4 children)
The only place I've ever seen European style 240 volt is inside of machines, with their own transformers. I spent an afternoon figuring out how in hell my 240 nozzle heaters worked, because it just wasn't the same as all the rest of the 240 circuits I worked with. As you say, no one around had the terminology to explain it to me.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday May 15 2020, @03:21AM (3 children)
I got a B.S. in Electrical Engineering (with Honors - whatever that means) - they never even showed me 3 phase... I took the EIT exam and had to learn it for that.
My first job was upstairs from a print house with a huge press that ran on 480 3 phase. Some genius wired our central air compressor to 2 legs of that 480, it ran but not well. No great surprise that a 25000 BTU (properly wired) wall unit "made more cold" than the supposed 5 ton central unit wired as it was.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday May 15 2020, @03:56AM (2 children)
Hmmmm. Are you aware that, you can rewire most motors, and switch them from 240V to 480V, and vice versa? When I pull a new motor out of the box, the wires inside the "peckerhead" have all been stripped back 3/8" and left that way. For 480 3ph use, I take wires 4 and 7, wire nut them together, wires 5 and 8 together, wires 6 and 9 together. Wires 1, 2, and 3 each get wire nutted to L1, L2, and L3. Energize momentarily to check rotation - if the motor runs backward, you reverse any two of L1, L2, or L3.
It's been a long time since I wired for 240, I can't remember which wires are connected for 240 service, but the diagram is printed on a sheet packed with the motor.
I don't know what conversion would be like for an air conditioner - it may not be possible. Well - yes, it's possible. In many cases, we bring 480 3phase inside the electrical cabinet, wire up all the 480V components, and two of the hot legs also go to a transformer to make 240V and/or 120V and/or DC voltage.
So, you would have to get into the cabinet, and see what was done, before concluding that it was right or wrong.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday May 15 2020, @12:45PM (1 child)
So, there's a long backstory that amounts to: we didn't really want to know what was going on inside that compressor, but we did get permission from the landlord to install a 2 ton wall unit (total cost including professional labor $1200) that made more difference in the overall temp upstairs than the 5 ton rated unit was doing.
We did open the panel on the 5 ton unit enough to see 2 legs of the 3 phase service going in there, not enough to determine what they had attempted to do with them exactly. It was labeled as a standard split phase 240 unit, maybe they thought they were doing something "correct" but it certainly didn't work well. It was a long time ago, I say the 3 phase was 480V but actually I think we decided it was something more exotic in the high 300s...
Sad story about motors that get delivered in A/C units. I had one of those 2 ton units in my house, and it died about 4 years after I moved in (unit was about 12 years old, according to the label) so I bought a new replacement and had it installed in the same opening. About 13 months later (literally a few days after warranty expired) the new unit died, I called a repairman who extracted the factory motor and installed a new one. The factory motor was clearly labeled "check and fill lubrication every 6 months" while the outside of the A/C unit was labeled "no user serviceable parts, do not open" - and even if you knew they had put in the oiled motor there was no way to get in to service it. It was a standard size and the repairman put in a no lubrication required motor to replace it which lasted at least the next 6 years until central A/C was installed in the house - but... thanks a lot A/C factory for putting in a motor you know is going to burn out shortly after the warranty expired. If we all had cell-phone video cameras back then I would have posted the proof on the internet.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday May 15 2020, @04:15PM
I can empathize with the stupid labels. "No user serviceable parts" tells me that I've just GOT TO open the panel up, to inspect stuff. Been burnt a couple times with that kind of foolishness.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 15 2020, @01:01PM
A few years back I went to the factory down the street for some seasonal work. Had top watch that "Lockout Tagput" video for the 1000th time, only to find out they don't even have locks on their machines, they just show the video cuz OSHA.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by coolgopher on Thursday May 14 2020, @12:43PM (3 children)
Favourite from a previous job - having to sit through day long building site safety inductions because we were installing gear in the server room, and there might be floor tiles lifted (aircon runs underneath the raised flooring).
Of course, you get a pack of nerds into a room under a dumb pretense, there's bound to be lots of smarty comments. After the umpteenth question on how we know whether an area is classified as a building site (what if it's only one missing floor tile? how about if there's only a ladder present in the room?), the instructor cracked it and asked if we were completely stupid. Turns out he thought we were actual building workers, and when it dawned on him we were merely stuffing some kit into racks he too questioned why the hell he was wasting time on us. Occupational Health & Safety strikes again!
Oh, and then there was the other time when we all had to leave the server room to go into town to shop for steel caps. Because, you know, raised floor tiles...
Curiously, I don't recall getting any official advice not to touch the 48V bus bars in the power distribution racks. Tales from colleagues about vapourising screwdrivers makes me think that might've been a better topic to discuss.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday May 14 2020, @04:52PM (2 children)
Most auto mechanics can probably tell you about lowly 12V DC melting steel tools. All it takes is a large enough battery to keep the current flowing for more than a couple milliseconds.
(Score: 3, Funny) by Acabatag on Thursday May 14 2020, @08:26PM
At a medical device company I worked at I had a big barrel of partially depleted 9 volt batteries. You can plug them terminal to terminal and make a very long high voltage battery. With quite a bit of current behind the potential.
It's amazing how many of us live through our adventures safely.
(Score: 2) by coolgopher on Friday May 15 2020, @01:00AM
Your average car battery puts out more amps than my welder.
And I have friends who do chainmaille ring-welding using small 12V UPS batteries, quite successfully. In fact, rings going up in smoke was the bigger problem there too.
Don't mess with the amps. You're not going to win.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday May 14 2020, @01:04PM
1987 I worked in a factory that had an un-grounded 100VAC test station, if you didn't stand on the insulating mat and touch only one point at a time, you'd get zapped - and it happened to even the trained workers on a regular basis, much more to new kids on the job.
Same place was using solvent cleaners that made the workers' hands go numb - after about 4 girls couldn't feel their fingers anymore even after the weekend they figured out a different, slightly less toxic, solvent to use - but, judging from the affected workers' personalities (super sweet, dumb as bricks)- it wasn't just the nerve cells in their hands that were getting killed...
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 14 2020, @01:16PM
Again, what you seem to describe is corruption. I'm glad and surprized you recognize it - there's hope.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 14 2020, @06:49PM
That's because if something happens it is safer to be thrown out of the roll cage and crushed by the forklift or the load, right?!
(Score: 3, Insightful) by PartTimeZombie on Friday May 15 2020, @01:52AM
All those things are problems with your society, not worker safety rules.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Thursday May 14 2020, @01:00PM (5 children)
Sounds like a structural problem to me - not that it's likely to get fixed, but...
If the company was truly on the hook for not only the immediate medical costs and disability benefits for their own workers, but also future lost income, pain, suffering, etc. you bet they'd be keeping their workers safe, because it's simply cheaper to do so - particularly for the young ones with millions in future earning potential.
The problem is that workers for companies have less legal protection than your average slip and fall victim does against your average retail outlet, or insured individual. Our injury protection landscape is highly skewed and frankly nonsensical, with awards for similar injuries ranging from millions in pain and suffering to f-you get your own insurance to pay. Of course big old companies have jockeyed themselves as close to the f-you position as they can possibly get.
Now, there's the other side of this coin. I have special needs kids, and one of them goes to a school with a large number of difficult children and young adults. They have a high ratio of adult helpers to kids in the room, and a sadly large percentage of those helpers are obviously trolling for an on-the-job injury and workman's comp settlement. Any time a kid gets out of hand and swings, they'll step in front of them, take the hit, then promptly report to the hospital for evaluation and treatment. Cameras everywhere from the bus to the classroom don't seem to slow it down much. I'm sure this goes on in every injury prone job out there, and there are some jobs where you just can't control all the variables.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 14 2020, @01:52PM (4 children)
Joe, that's how it works with auto accidents in China. If you injure someone, you are responsible for all their present and future bills for life.
Given that financial incentive... it is cheaper to kill the victim than try to help him with his injuries. Read the gruesome details:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/in-china-drivers-would-rather-kill-than-injure-2015-9%3famp [google.com]
Careful what you wish for.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Thursday May 14 2020, @02:46PM (2 children)
When we visited Mexico in the 1980s this was how traffic accident resolution was explained to us also: a little bribe to the investigating officer and the seriously injured would simply die to simplify everyone else's future life.
Even in the U.S. it is also cheaper to kill the inconvenient members of society than it is to do anything to help them - we don't say it openly, but much of the political discourse ends in that conclusion if you just connect the dots of what's being said by the "conservatives."
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 14 2020, @09:37PM (1 child)
By "conservatives" in double quotes, I assume that you mean politicians that sell out to lobbyists. That exists on both sides of the political spectrum, it is just that the left side treats symptoms instead of holding themselves accountable to solving the cause of the problem, so they can mask their sellout politicians more effectively. By focusing on the symptoms and not the causes, they can use the suffering caused by administering the wrong treatment as political currency against those who want to deal in real world complexities and consequences. Why do you think that they use "explainers" instead of memes? Explainers use "context" stuffed with a specifically crafted deceptive world view necessary to support the point of the explainer, whereas memes only require a person's existing world view and seconds of their attention in order to provide a novel insight. If you are not trying to deceive someone, then it is far simpler and more effective to communicate with a meme than an explainer.
Speaking of deception, it is easier to deceive someone who has not been forced to operate with limited resources in the real world. Conservatives tend to be middle class workers because they have enough money to make decisions with their money, but they do not have enough money to avoid the consequences of making bad decisions with it. It is easy to be left-wing if you have an abundant amount of money that fixes all of your mistakes, or are too poor to make choices with your money.
By creating a generation that has a prolonged childhood (Obamacare extended "child" dependents up to age 26), more left-wing liberal voters were created. But left-wing liberals are only liberal with other people's resources (including their parents), and are not interested in the kind of freedom that requires responsibility and reaching adulthood. Not by age, but by some level of secure independence. Make them responsible for earning their own income, and all of a sudden, they are less interested in subsidizing other people's poor choices. That is why it is only fruitful to argue with a left-wing liberal when they have something personal to loose within the topic of discussion. If they can only imagine living off of their parents, then you are just wasting time by arguing with them. Human consciousness prevents individuals from realizing that they are being a parasite to others. Admitting to yourself that you are a parasite causes depression and makes socialization difficult, which evolution selected against. A vote for a well spoken tyrant (such as Bernie Sanders or Fidel Castro) who promises nice things taken from other people is as close to an admission of personal failure as you will get from these people. We are witnessing an important variable in the decline of civilization. Too much success breeds laziness in future generations, which creates the decline.
There is no clearer example of killing the inconvenient members of society than the recent rules requiring that unprepared nursing homes take in people who are or might be infected with a highly infectious and lethal respiratory virus. Pennsylvania Health Secretary Dr. Rachel Levine confirmed that she recently moved her 95-year-old mother out of a personal care home while less politically connected people were told that pulling loved ones out of nursing homes was against protocol. This is the most direct and repugnant example of senicide in the United States, and it is on the left-wing.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday May 15 2020, @03:14AM
Leaving nursing and long term care facilities is frequently discouraged by those who are paid per patient day. What you do is demand to be released AMA (Against Medical Advice) - sign a form and walk, if they try to stop you start to call the police, they will shut up and back down immediately.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by TheRaven on Thursday May 14 2020, @04:44PM
sudo mod me up
(Score: 4, Interesting) by shipofgold on Thursday May 14 2020, @06:50PM (4 children)
My favorite OSHA story. A university theater with a descending pit in front of the stage for the orchestra. Resulted in an 8 foot drop at the front of the stage and the initial OSHA inspection required a railing going across the front of the stage.....
My question has always been how many of the insane OSHA rules came about because some nitwit did exactly what the rule is attempting to prevent. Most of these rules don't come about in a vacuum.
The biggest issue in America is Idiots doing something stupid and then trying to sue somebody else because of their lunacy. If people were to be required to have some 'common sense' and take responsibility for their own actions I think we would be better off.
But there is always that one self-important boss who demands someone else to do something stupid. Unfortunately darwin doesn't take care of those guys.
(Score: 2) by lentilla on Friday May 15 2020, @02:16AM (1 child)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 15 2020, @04:50AM
Stupid falling idiots shouldn't be allowed on stage. MAKE THAT A NEW RULE!
(Score: 2) by turgid on Friday May 15 2020, @08:37PM
Everything is money in America. Everywhere you go you are highly encouraged to part with it at every opportunity. America has a very poor social security safety net. Look at all the poor old people forced to work when they should be retired. Look at the extortionate medial bills and the rip-off health insurance "market."
In America, hitting the jackpot is very important. You can finally afford that operation. You can pay off the mortgage. You can retire. People are so desperate, they'll do anything for money, especially if they can make a fast buck by suing someone.
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent [wikipedia.org].
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 16 2020, @06:51AM
OSHA doesn't require railings for theatrical fall protection. You are fully compliant using a combination of rated pit nets with scrim, strip lighting, and ghost lights.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 14 2020, @10:08AM (15 children)
A lot of people in the South didn't like slavery, but couldn't compete in the market without it. In modern times, there are plenty of people who want secure borders, but when push comes to shove and they need some yard work done, they're out front of the big box store, picking up day laborers and not asking about green cards. They're certainly not providing health care for them. People are not going to regulate themselves. That's what workers organize for. It's supposed to be what political parties did too, so the workers wouldn't have to pay dues just to secure their rights; but post-NAFTA the Democrats pretty much gave up on that. Thanks, Clintons.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 14 2020, @10:48AM (11 children)
Wait, you actually think someone hiring day labor should be footing the day laborer's healthcare bills? Are you fucking insane?
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 14 2020, @12:47PM
> someone hiring day labor should be footing the day laborer's healthcare bills?
It could work this way:
Day Laborer gets injured on private property
DL health care generates an emergency medical bill
DL (via ambulance-chaser-lawyer) sues property owner
Homeowner's insurance defends property owner--and if they lose then insurance pays
But, if the DL is illegal, I have no idea if the lawyer will take the case. And I haven't read my homeowner's policy in detail to see if this sort of injury is covered. Note that I don't hire day labor...
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 14 2020, @01:25PM (4 children)
All these lovely epicycle philosophical questions that Americans get to wrestle with when talking about healthcare.
In the USA: get sick read insurance contract phone lawyer pray to Jeebus start a CrowdMe (whatever) drink bleach declare bankruptcy.
In the UK: get sick go to hospital done.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 14 2020, @03:43PM (1 child)
FTFY
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 14 2020, @09:53PM
That' better than don't go to hospital because you can't afford it and die?
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Friday May 15 2020, @01:42AM (1 child)
Fixed.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 15 2020, @01:25PM
That's how it works here too. You don't /actually/ need to pay those ER bills. They aren't allowed to garnish wages for medical.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday May 14 2020, @02:49PM (4 children)
If the employer doesn't foot the bill, it basically falls on the taxpayers. Take your pick.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 14 2020, @02:58PM
You can tell something is a good idea by how much TMB hates it.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by PartTimeZombie on Friday May 15 2020, @01:44AM (2 children)
We did* and it turns out expecting employers to pay for healthcare gets you shit healthcare that costs too much or no healthcare at all.
* "We" being the rest of the world.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday May 15 2020, @03:17AM (1 child)
There are a lot of things that are better handled by the politically elected government than struggling, and not so struggling, businesses.
It's a shame that U.S.ians implicitly trust business owners - as far as I can see most of them are cut from the same cloth as most politicians.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 15 2020, @05:03AM
An interesting thing I've noticed with European's who come to work in America (me being one).
We all get a sharp learning curve in health insurance, retirement savings, taxes and finance. You could say that's a good thing but what a colossal waste of effort. Take out tax at the source, get centralized healthcare and some basic retirement deal like a normal country.
That frees up a ton of stress. In the US it's such a riddle changing jobs and investing in stocks/bonds/REITs/whatever - plus you can lose your job any time for any reason in many states. Instantly up in smoke because someone in power say so. The whole thing is about yielding to authority not freedom. Unless you're a millionaire, you have no power - and that includes thousandaires with guns. Sure wave it around today getting a rage-on but tomorrow back in your hole.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Thexalon on Thursday May 14 2020, @04:37PM (2 children)
The people who really really really didn't like slavery were, of course, the slaves, who were definitely not competing in anything resembling a free market. Towards the end of slavery, some masters sometimes hired out their slaves and sometimes allowed the slaves to keep some of the wages, but the master had the legal power to take everything belonging to the slave at any time too.
The other people harmed by slavery were poorer white people who couldn't afford to buy a slave, because the vast majority of the jobs they could do were getting done by slaves, and it's basically impossible for a wage laborer to compete with a slave because how do you price yourself lower than $0 / hr? There's substantial evidence that racism was quite deliberately pushed by the plantation owners to keep poor white folks from getting to know the slaves and realizing that they had more in common with the slaves than with the plantation owners. This strategy was so successful that when the plantation owners decided to go to war to protect their right to own slaves (and no, it wasn't about anything else, they said so loudly and clear to anyone who would listen right up until they lost the war), many poor white people willingly helped them out.
There has never been a major political party that backed labor rights of any kind without a powerful union movement and a political threat of a left-wing third party. The Democrats became the party of labor in the 1930's (before that, they were by and large the party of racism, an element of the Democratic Party that remained influential until the 1960's) due to the very real threat of them losing votes to Eugene Debs and his Socialist Party, and remained loyal to labor because unions were a major source of big bucks campaign funds until the 1980's. They weren't doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.
And as for union dues, that's peanuts to the price US labor had to pay for their rights prior to the 1930's: Company management routinely hired people to beat up or even murdered union members and sympathetic politicians, or worked with government authorities to jail or even execute them, and at the very least fired and blacklisted any union member in an attempt to make joining a union punishable by having you and your family starve to death.
And while US workers have largely but definitely not completely fought off the worst of those kinds of abuses, they're still standard practice in many countries the US trades heavily with (yes, including the company-backed murdering of union organizers), and those countries' governments are prevented from granting the same protections and rights US workers enjoy by international trade organizations like the World Bank, IMF, and WTO, and the constant threat of a CIA-backed coup. The news reports will describe governments who fail to toe the line as "operating contrary to US interests", even though it is definitely in the competitive interests of the American working class for foreign workers get the same kinds of minimum wages and overtime and organizing rights that they have.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Friday May 15 2020, @01:50AM (1 child)
Thank you.
It's hard to argue that America are not the good guys on this site sometimes, because so many people here have no knowledge of US history, or just ignore the bits they don't like.
You could argue that America exported it's slavery to Central America after the Civil War, and the slaves grew bananas in stead of cotton.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Thexalon on Friday May 15 2020, @03:11AM
That would be a tough argument, given that much of what USAians tend to call Latin America had slavery for most of their history post-European contact. The US absolutely acted to preserve slavery though, and were the reason there were effectively slaves growing sugar as late as the 1960's.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Booga1 on Thursday May 14 2020, @10:20AM (4 children)
I'm not sure the logic is solid for this one. Most businesses fail for any number of reasons unrelated to safety.
It's highly likely that the majority of businesses that fail do so before they exist long enough to have a significant workplace injury. Just because they shuttered without having a workplace injury doesn't mean that putting in safety programs and processes were the cause of the business' failure to survive.
On top of that, many of the new safety regulations that do have an economic cost are quite obviously going to affect newer and more fragile businesses disproportionately. In general, older businesses are simply more stable and have larger market share which enable them to weather the occasional insurance payout from workplace injuries.
I don't doubt their numbers, but I do have some serious reservations about their conclusions.
(Score: 2) by MostCynical on Thursday May 14 2020, @10:51AM (3 children)
insurance.
if you can afford to insure against worker death or injury, you won't care as much about worker safety.
Once you kill or maim a few, insurance companies will either jack up the premiums or refuse to insure you.
THEN you will care about worker safety. Just a numbers game - eventually, enough die that you have to do something (even if it is just fitting suicide prevention nets [cbsnews.com])
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday May 14 2020, @11:51AM (1 child)
I don't think you can buy insurance against wrongful death suits. Could be wrong, but it's not something I've ever seen advertised.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Thursday May 14 2020, @04:49PM
You can definitely buy insurance against being sued, and that does include wrongful death suits. This can even prove useful if, for instance, somebody were to sue a diner for wrongful death because their triple patty melt was so good Grandpa Joe got fat and died of diabetic shock.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 14 2020, @02:13PM
In other words: The business world is rules by sociopaths.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by driverless on Thursday May 14 2020, @10:45AM (18 children)
... if you're a big enough company it's cheaper to pay the fines than to obey the law. Looking past worker safety, look at companies like Google or Facebook, for almost anything they do it's of greater benefit to them to do what they want and pay the fine because the fines were set based on some proportionate calculation of fines for other things, which means a serious fine for a mom and pop store is barely-noticed background noise to someone like Google. This is why the EU set fines for infringement as a proportion of total revenue rather than a fixed amount, because anyone big enough can just shrug it off. Setting fines based on someone's ability to pay is in some sense harking back to things like debtors prisons of several centuries ago, but in some cases it's not only justified but necessary in order to be effective.
(Score: 5, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 14 2020, @11:01AM (16 children)
A normal person sees a no parking sign with a $55 fine and thinks, "I can't park here, it's illegal."
A rich person sees a no parking sign with a $55 fine and thinks, "It costs $55 to park here."
(Score: 2) by driverless on Thursday May 14 2020, @11:07AM (1 child)
That's a more succinct way to put it :-).
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 14 2020, @01:28PM
Car analogy FTW!
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Thursday May 14 2020, @11:44AM (8 children)
Perfect lead-in to a truck driving story.
New Jersey, close to the Holland Tunnel, I think it was in Secaucus. I needed to make a right turn from one busy street, onto another. There was a brand new Mercedes parked on the corner, in front of a fire hydrant, illegally parked twice over. I gave the turn my best effort, but it wasn't quite good enough - I had to stop because my trailer tandems were going to take out the Mercedes' fender.
Cop comes along, asks me what the problem is. I explain. He informs me that he doesn't see an illegally parked car on the corner, and I had two choices. A: get my truck out of his intersection or B: be arrested for obstructing traffic, have my truck impounded, and sit in jail for at least a day and a half to see the judge.
I got back in the truck, put it in gear, and tore the fender off that brand new Mercedes, and got the hell out of Secaucus.
As you say, the rich man looked at that corner parking spot, and thought that it would cost him $xxx to park there. I came along, and increased that $xxx to $X,XXX, and possibly $XX,XXX.
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 14 2020, @12:53PM (3 children)
> I needed to make a right turn from one busy street, onto another.
Sorry to spoil your story, but you never *need* to make a turn. The road system (except for some dead ends) is all connected and what anyone sane would do was find another route that didn't involve a turn that resulted in property damage.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 14 2020, @03:13PM
Does stupidity hurt?
(Score: 3, Funny) by Runaway1956 on Thursday May 14 2020, @04:43PM
You're kinda sorta on target. But, Secaucus, New Jersey. Close to the Holland Tunnel. I should add, I was pointed east. That should be enough to realize that, yes, the street I was on would end soon. Thanks to the proliferation of one-way streets, road restrictions, and other road blockages, I did, indeed, need to make that right turn. I'm not sure how deep the river is in that area, but I assume it's deeper than any snorkel I might find for an 18-wheeler.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 14 2020, @09:58PM
Look buddy, when you're in Secaucus, NJ, you do whatever the hell it takes to get out of there.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by meustrus on Thursday May 14 2020, @03:55PM (1 child)
LOL, "I don't see an illegally parked car there." Cop probably knew exactly whose car it was, too. Bet he was laughing his ass off the rest of the day.
If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
(Score: 2) by coolgopher on Friday May 15 2020, @01:17AM
Bet the entire station was.
I hope there wasn't any damage to the truck from the instructions given though.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 14 2020, @11:06PM (1 child)
So YOU are the bastard that destroyed my brand new car! Prepare for a server. To serve you summons. See you in court.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday May 15 2020, @02:30AM
Statute of limitations, Bubba. And, I hope you learned your lesson about illegal parking. ;^)
(Score: 4, Insightful) by maxwell demon on Thursday May 14 2020, @12:31PM (4 children)
Actually, it costs less than $55 on average because you're not always caught.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday May 14 2020, @02:59PM (2 children)
Far less.
Speeding fines are in the low hundreds, but I only seem to get fined for speeding once every 10 years for the last 30 years, despite driving a consistent 15 over the limit every day. I view it as road tax, I'd much rather drive 15 over (with most of the other traffic that is also driving 10-20 over), than be in that 2% who "can't afford the speeding ticket" and so drive strictly within the limits. It's not about getting there faster, it's just less stressful to move with traffic, and the average fine for doing so works out to something less than a penny per mile.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Thursday May 14 2020, @03:42PM (1 child)
FWIW, in California you can get fined for driving too much slower than the average speed of traffic. It's called "The General Speed Law", and basically means it's illegal to drive at an unsafe speed...including unsafe for others.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday May 14 2020, @05:29PM
Florida is too full of rigid thinkers to ever have a law that clearly requires you to break another law...
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 15 2020, @01:44AM
Back to the GP's point a little bit, many corporate fines and related expenses can be written off on their taxes. How many of the fines and lawyer fees that normal people pay can be written off like that too?
(Score: 3, Informative) by JoeMerchant on Thursday May 14 2020, @01:15PM
Or Tesla.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 4, Touché) by turgid on Thursday May 14 2020, @11:56AM (1 child)
"Send the widow a ham." -- C. Montgomery Burns.
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent [wikipedia.org].
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 15 2020, @01:57AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kRPTAyARgo [youtube.com]
The clip in question, for those who don't know.