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Germany will require all petrol stations to provide electric car charging
FRANKFURT (Reuters) - Germany said it will oblige all petrol stations to offer electric car charging to help remove refuelling concerns and boost consumer demand for the vehicles as part of its 130 billion euro ($146 billion) economic recovery plan.
The move could provide a significant boost to electric vehicle demand along with the broader stimulus plan which included taxes to penalise ownership of large polluting combustion-engined sports utility vehicles and a 6,000 euro subsidy towards the cost of an electric vehicle.
Germany's announcement follows a French plan to boost electric car sales announced last week by President Macron.
"It's a very clear commitment to battery-powered vehicles and establishes electric mobility as a technology of the future," energy storage specialist The Mobility House, whose investors include Daimler (DAIGn.DE) and the Renault-Nissan-Mitsubishi alliance, said.
"Internationally this puts Germany in the leading group of battery electric vehicle support."
As part of the government stimulus, 2.5 billion euros will be spent on battery cell production and charging infrastructure, a field where oil majors, utilities and carmakers, including Shell (RDSa.L), Engie (ENGIE.PA) and Tesla (TSLA.O), are vying for dominance.
(Score: 2) by MostCynical on Sunday June 07 2020, @09:04AM (13 children)
Looks inevtiable [theiet.org], the German government is just aiming to speed things up.
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 5, Interesting) by zocalo on Sunday June 07 2020, @10:05AM (5 children)
It's a good start, but if they are serious about driving EV adoption and removing range anxiety, then they really ought to be thinking of other locations where people go in cars and linger for a suitable length of time as well: general purpose car parks (of course), but also supermarkets, fast food outlets, gyms/sport centres, and at public parks, for instance. If you've got enough locations, then the fact that you're spending ~30min at a charge point vs. ~5min at a pump shouldn't really make much difference as you're distributing the load. As an PHEV driver myself, it's surprising how quickly you adapt your fueling style as well; typical garage forecourts are probably not even where I'd think of looking for an EV charger to start with, but if I'm away from home then I'm absolutely using whether I can take the opportunity to do a quick top up or not as a factor in selecting which supermarkets, restaurants, and the like I visit.
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 4, Interesting) by RS3 on Sunday June 07 2020, @04:21PM
Great ideas and hopefully that's how the world will go. In USA charging spots are popping up everywhere. I know people who are working for very major companies who are in the planning and building stages of very high-power chargers, including wireless ones for delivery vehicles.
Thinking about your list, movie theaters are closing down and heading for bankruptcy, largely due to COVID-19. There's talk that drive-in theaters may see a comeback. Either way, it'd be a great place for charging stations. Concert venues too.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 07 2020, @05:38PM (3 children)
You're really not supposed to be charging to 100% each time. We did that with gasoline cars because filling a little versus all the way was a relatively small difference in time. With electric vehicles, you're supposed to be charging them at the ends, plug it in at home or at the office. If you're on a road trip, you'd be charging enough to get you through the next leg of the journey with a bit of extra charge in case you need to detour. And that's typically a lot faster than charging all the way up.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by zocalo on Sunday June 07 2020, @07:01PM (1 child)
The issue though is much longer journeys. In that case you are absolutely going to want to start with as near full battery as you can, but the sweet spot I mentioned was more about maintaining available range throughout those longer journeys than one charge allows. If you are required to have a 20-30min break every two hours, then what is needed for effectively infinite EV range is to be able to put in enough charge in 20-30min to allow you to drive for around two hours. In the UK, on a good day on major roads (70mph limit), two hours equates to at most 250km unless you are really pushing your luck so, assuming I have a 300km or better range from full for some margin, suitable charge points are plentiful enough, and I can get 250km of range in 30min, then I can maximise my actual driving time as long as required, including week long, multi-stop roadtrips.
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @02:33AM
> two hours equates to at most 250km unless you are really pushing your luck
Or 30 minutes (a guess) if your trip includes some steep hills? Regen helps but not on every sort of terrain. Or (not in UK) really cold weather.
(Score: 2) by Nuke on Monday June 08 2020, @09:32AM
... but a big difference in price.
Not sure that about gasolene cars is true, not in the UK anyway. While I'm waiting to pay in the office the amounts I overhear from customers in front of me are mostly quite small. I fill 100% from fairly empty, but most others around me are at their pump for much shorther times than I am. Someone above posted a link to a map of European filling stations, and Italy has significantly the most - I wonder if that indicates there is a cultural thing with Italians that they fill with small amounts?
(Score: 4, Informative) by Nuke on Sunday June 07 2020, @10:12AM (5 children)
From your link :
Romance? A petrol station FFS!?? I hate the places, whether to arrive at or drive past. I can't say I've ever seen a stylish design, except when I was a kid there was one nearby in what I now realise was an Art Deco style, but that was demolished and replaced by the now standard design. I guess because it was not ugly enough.
Now they are all eyesores, designed to shout down the road as far as possible to approaching drivers that they are there. They just consists of rows of pumps, a functional office/shop building, and a canopy about three time higher than it needs to be, and a massive sign on the roadside, all in loud Lego colours. Normal UK planning regulations to try to avoid ugliness seem to be suspended for them.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by MostCynical on Sunday June 07 2020, @10:38AM (1 child)
the romance probably stopped when "full driveway service" stopped: the attendant would fill your car, and while the pump was running, they would also clean your windows, check tyre pressures and check engine fluids.
I know of two petrol stations where they still offer to fill your car for you, but they are small, and their prices are slightly higher than the large places (which all seem to be small supermarkets, cafes and convenience stores with petrol on the side)
Don't forget the romance of leaded fuel, or refilling overheated cooling systems on long drives, or only being able to pay for fuel with cash...
For a teenager, the romance of the petrol station was far more to do with the freedom - and having enough money to put fuel in the car, and take your friends out, and kow that you *could* take a girl home.. nothing to do with the actual petrol station.
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 07 2020, @01:03PM
When I want romance while I'm driving, I get my wife to put her head down and do the business. Proper romantic.
(Score: 4, Informative) by RS3 on Sunday June 07 2020, @04:26PM (2 children)
LOUD YOU SAY? Yeah, same here in US. In fact, annoyingly at best, many stations have TV screens on the pumps with loud obnoxious high-energy news, commercials, etc., and NO WAY to adjust volume or mute it. I wear earplugs frequently (for just such reasons) and it's still annoying as can be. Maybe they're hoping we'll go inside the store and buy overpriced things while petrol is flowing.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 07 2020, @05:40PM (1 child)
Pretty much, it's amazing all the places that advertisers are allowed to advertise these days. The best thing you can do is make a note of the companies that are doing the advertising and not buy anything from them. Eventually, they should get the message.
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Sunday June 07 2020, @08:30PM
I like your thinking, however their mindset is such that they'll just do more, louder, and more invasive advertising. They know it'll work somehow eventually, even if through the "there no such thing as bad publicity" effect.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 07 2020, @11:15PM
German electric tanks?
(Score: 2) by zoward on Sunday June 07 2020, @10:18AM (1 child)
While I applaud the move, I can't help wondering how much of this is fueled by Volkswagen's recent commitment to electric vehicles.
(Score: 3, Funny) by RS3 on Sunday June 07 2020, @04:31PM
I see what you did there.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Nuke on Sunday June 07 2020, @10:30AM (7 children)
It takes me about 2 minutes to fill with petrol. It takes - what? - 30-60 minutes to charge an EV, especially the 60 minutes if the driver takes the chance to eat a meal or go off shopping, the opportunity for which we are told is an advantage of EVs.
So as a rough guide, in the EV Utopia to come, there will need to be 20 times as many EV charging points as there are presently petrol pumps. My local petrol station has six pumps, and they are normally all in use with a comfortable flow rate; so they would need 120 charging points to be equivalent. They will need to demolish a lot of surrounding property to make room for that. And that is assuming the owners remove their cars as soon as they are fully charged.
That won't happen of course. What will happen is that there could be room for about 4 charging points (if you replace a row of pumps, 8 if you replace them all) which will be occupied by clowns who simply leave their cars there for hours, or all day, or all night, while they go off doing other things.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by MostCynical on Sunday June 07 2020, @10:40AM
add the chargers in houses, shops, car parks, office car parks... most people charge at home, at work, or while shopping. These are just bonus sites, that stop the value of petrol station real estate dropping as quickly.
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 2) by zocalo on Sunday June 07 2020, @11:26AM
Many forecourts already have ANPR systems that record number plates to deter people from filling up and driving off without paying. Similarly, many free car parks have ANPR systems that are used to enforce their max-stay times (e.g. at supermarkets and motorway service stations) and will issue a penalty notice if you exceed the allocated time - typically two hours. It shouldn't be that hard to combine the two and either bill based on the time that you spend at the charge point, which could make the cost per Wh rather expensive, or to issue a fine if you exceed what is determined to a be a reasonable limit on occupying a charge point, optionally with reduced time slots for periods of peak demand.
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 2) by Unixnut on Sunday June 07 2020, @11:28AM (3 children)
> It takes me about 2 minutes to fill with petrol. It takes - what? - 30-60 minutes to charge an EV, especially the 60 minutes if the driver takes the chance to eat a meal or go off shopping, the opportunity for which we are told is an advantage of EVs.
Its worse than that, the faster you charge, the more you wear out the battery.
Fuel tanks do not shrink with use, they are not a consumable item like batteries are. I have a 40 year old car with the same fuel tank and engine, which still gets the same range as new (in fact I think it does a bit better now, due to improvements in fuel quality).
No BEV will be able to do that. The original Hybrid cars are around 20 years old now, and most have batteries that barely hold a charge. Second hand ones I looked at (approx 10 years old) have at most 5 miles of battery power on a full charge, and that will probably drop to 0 in the next couple of years of use. The only reason second hand prices for them have not dropped to "scrap metal value", is because they have an engine and can still run on fuels, making them have some utility value as a vehicle.
How you treat the electric cars battery affects how well it lasts. and that includes how you charge it. The "fast/super" charging offered by some models come at the expense of battery life (and consequently, range). So the BEV owner has a choice, either do a normal charge (approx 8-12hours). and preserve their battery life and subsequent range for as long as they can, or (b) have the convenience of "fast" charging in around 60 mins, but have their battery life and range go down much faster, which will also affect their resale value on the second hand market.
Battery electric vehicle are inferior to ICE with liquid fuels, which is why governments have to bribe and coerce people into using them (unlike when the ICE first came to be, people readily switched away from electric cars and horses to them, as the tech was better). Electric vehicles need something better than batteries, all the improvements in battery tech so far is incremental, and still nowhere near the energy density of liquid fuel.
(Score: 0, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 07 2020, @01:06PM (1 child)
OK then smart ass, what if we make the batteries out of gasoline and burn it to provide the thrust. Solves your little strawman argument.
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Sunday June 07 2020, @04:44PM
Sorry you got modded troll. I hate the mod system more and more each day. It ruins a perfectly stimulating discussion. Yes, AC's comment is a bit trollish, but so what? It made me think of a counter-argument:
Use petrol to run fuel cell in a hybrid system with enough batteries to provide higher amps for acceleration, hill climbs, etc., and a reasonable range on their own.
1.5 years ago a good friend bought a Chrysler Pacifica "plugin hybrid" for his wife. Plugin-in hybrid means it has batteries to run 60-80 miles, and a small but adequate gasoline engine if the batteries run down / long trips. They love the thing. Didn't need to put gasoline in it until about 6 months after buying it. Also, his main car is his now 2.4 year old Chevy Bolt, which had > 260 mile range. He loves it. It comes with a 'level 1' 120V 12 A charger, and he installed a 240 V 30 A 'level 2' charger they both use. He says the batteries still have 90% life in them.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 07 2020, @10:45PM
> Battery electric vehicle are inferior to ICE with liquid fuels
wut
> governments have to bribe and coerce people into using them
wut??
In the urban centres near me, consumers are demanding more EV than ICE vehicles, and we stopped having any EV subsidies in 2018. The only reason there aren't a few thousand more Teslas (specifically) on the road here, this year and last, is that Tesla literally couldn't produce and deliver them as fast as people wanted to buy them.
Is it because of fuel costs? Usage patterns? Environmental aspects? Social standing (Tesla's cheaper than Lexus and more prestige, here - there's no big Chevy Volt shortage)? I don't know.
> Electric vehicles need something better
See above.
I can only conclude you are so hyperfocused on energy density that you overlooked the many, many other factors impacting rapidly growing EV popularity.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 07 2020, @02:10PM
Came here to say the same thing. Suburban/rural gas stations have plenty of room for a car to sit while charging, but not so much for some city gas stations I've seen which barely have room for a couple of cars at the pumps, total. One car parked/charging would drop their gasoline sales in ~half during peak periods.
I suspect this law will soon have some exceptions. Alternatively the city gas stations will put up a sign in a disused lavatory, next to an ordinary electric socket which says, "Electric Car Charge Point".
Oh, you didn't bring a long enough extension cord? Sorry.
(Score: -1, Spam) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 07 2020, @12:46PM (1 child)
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(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 07 2020, @02:32PM
You sound like you need some girl cock bouncing around inside of you like a bounce house, cumming estrogen inside of you and turning you into a dick girl as waves of feminine pleasure begin to crash over your body.
JOIN US
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Bot on Sunday June 07 2020, @05:17PM
>it will oblige all petrol stations to offer electric car charging
What better place for hi ampere currents, sparks and lithium than a gas station? Isn't that the same place with pictograms that say NO CELLPHONE YOU FUCKING ISIS TERRORIST WANNABE?
Other considerations that a 12 year old might have guessed but bureaucrats don't
- Space in petrol stations is already occupied with secondary activities, a spot for the queue of electric vehicles is a fucking hassle.
- The best place to put charging stations is therefore in parking lots
- Instead of obliging setting up columns or even 220V straight from the home might be a business opportunity, all you need to do is provide a protocol that lets privates offer space and cars to access it. A state sponsored airBnB for parking spots with an insurance fund. Elegant, democratic, sustainable.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 07 2020, @09:09PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_holes [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2020, @11:35AM
Is it like penis anxiety?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S [wikipedia.org]
100 kWh (360 MJ)
348–390 mi (560–628 km) (EPA)
Looks to me like a regular car with a regular gas tank. And you need to refuel that every few hours because you drive and drive like a fucking idiot? 90+% of people would refill their car maybe once a week and now you can do it everyday. Yet still have phobia over this... NOT logical.
200kW+ chargers are popping up near autobahns already,
https://www.allego.eu/business/high-power-charging [allego.eu]
That's 58kWh in-power during that 10 minutes which charges a Tesla-S nicely from 25% to 75%.
Anyway, I'm glad we are finally waking up and moving to electric. We badly need better air quality.
(Score: 2) by arslan on Tuesday June 09 2020, @01:33AM
It's kinda funny we still revert to legacy thinking with new technology. There's no reason why we need to keep the old way to refueling, i.e. via dedicated "hubs" owned by special purpose companies. There's ample opportunity to change the way refueling economy works. City councils and even private entities like shops/malls/restaurants to individuals can start investing in recharging capability from small singular setups to mass setups and take part in the refueling economic pie as a middle man provider.
Transform the way we refuel from pockets of dedicated hubs to widely available distributed access points.