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The Most and Least Expensive Cars to Maintain
The most expensive thing most Americans own, after their house, is their car. On average, Americans spend 5% of their income on purchasing a car. Another 5% goes towards ongoing maintenance and insurance costs.
But not every car costs the same to keep it running. And different cars have varying risks of leaving their drivers suddenly immobilized.
At YourMechanic, we have a massive dataset of the make and model of the cars we have serviced and the type of maintenance done. We decided to use our data to understand which cars break down the most and have the highest maintenance costs. We also looked into which types of maintenance are most common to certain cars.
Which Car Brands Cost the Most to Maintain?
Based on estimates of total car maintenance over 10 years
Rank Car-Brand Cost 1 BMW $17,800 2 Mercedes-Benz $12,900 3 Cadillac $12,500 4 Volvo $12,500 5 Audi $12,400 6 Saturn $12,400 7 Mercury $12,000 8 Pontiac $11,800 9 Chrysler $10,600 10 Dodge $10,600 11 Acura $9,800 12 Infiniti $9,300 13 Ford $9,100 14 Kia $8,800 15 Land Rover $8,800 16 Chevrolet $8,800 17 Buick $8,600 18 Jeep $8,300 19 Subaru $8,200 20 Hyundai $8,200 21 GMC $7,800 22 Volkswagen $7,800 23 Nissan $7,600 24 Mazda $7,500 25 Mini $7,500 26 Mitsubishi $7,400 27 Honda $7,200 28 Lexus $7,000 29 Scion $6,400 30 Toyota $5,500
What has been your experience in this regard ?
(Score: 3, Informative) by fliptop on Monday July 13 2020, @10:01AM (23 children)
I feel like Chrysler/Dodge should be higher. Fiat has ruined those brands and they're the junkiest vehicles on the road right now. They should at least be above Pontiac and Mercury. Jeep should definitely be higher too, since they're being ruined by the same people. Not long ago I worked on a Jeep Wrangler that had 68,000 miles and had never been driven off road. It needed all 4 ball joints replaced. That's ridiculous.
Toyota and Honda are definitely the best and most reliable vehicles on the road right now. They may be a bit pricey when initially purchased, but maintenance and total cost of ownership are lower. Resale values are higher too.
No surprise BMW and Benz are at the top, those things are money pits. Interesting that Jaguar is missing from the list, I'm sure they'd be near if not at the top. However Land Rover was included and they're owned by Jaguar.
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 13 2020, @10:06AM
I find it somewhat comforting (with respect to my prejudices) that japanese-made cars are towards the bottom. Prejudices seem to correlate well with facts.
(Score: 5, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 13 2020, @10:34AM (1 child)
>> Interesting that Jaguar is missing from the list,
The reason is that the list is based on completed repairs, and they're still waiting for parts for the Jaguar.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 13 2020, @05:36PM
so is porsche. and ferrari. it's like unaffordable, crap cars are only for the 1%.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Muad'Dave on Monday July 13 2020, @11:15AM
I came here to say this. Jag's cost would've blown the top off the list!
(Score: 2) by legont on Monday July 13 2020, @11:23AM (5 children)
I have a pre Fiat Dodge and it's the same - runs reliably, but wants something all the time. Also, the design is schizophrenic. For example, oil when changed is going out all over, the exhaust sensor that breaks often needs special tools or little Mexican hand to get to. It takes a dedicated tool to get to the last spark plug so I don't change it. I can go on and on.
I've never had Toyotas, but Mazda, Honda (Acura) and Subaru never gave me any serious troubles. The first two from the last century and the last one right now. I maintain my Subaru myself and it's a joy to do as everything is logical and easy.
I've owned a 1980 BMW and it was a great car maintainable using a screw driver and one 14 wrench ) They ruined it all right.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 13 2020, @03:47PM (2 children)
80s beemers were built like tanks. Modern beemers are built like iphone - give it a look from a "wrong" angle, and the wheels start to fall off.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 13 2020, @10:47PM (1 child)
80s mercedes were built like tanks, too.
You will see MB 300D, turbo diesels. These mother fuckers simply refuse to die.
(Score: 2) by driverless on Tuesday July 14 2020, @02:49AM
Meh, there's only one Mercedes worth owning and that's the 600.
Bonus points if you get one that was previously owned by Idi Amin, Ferdinand Marcos, P.W.Botha, Enver Hoxha, Mobuto Sese Seko, Tito, Papa Doc, Kim Il-Sung, Pablo Escobar, or Saddam Hussein.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by bzipitidoo on Monday July 13 2020, @03:56PM (1 child)
I agree that Chrysler quality has long been mediocre. Around 2000, the Dodge Neon won the Motor Trend car of the year award, and scarcely 2 years later, Neons were piling up in junkyards because the head gaskets were giving out. That can quickly ruin an engine. A bad head gasket can leak antifreeze and oil. Lose all the oil, and the engine won't last even 1 mile. Can go a few tens of miles with a slow oil leak, but you're flirting with disaster. The Neons became infamous for that problem.
If that was the only issue, it wouldn't be so bad, but Chryslers in general just plain have more and worse problems. My parents had a 1967 Chrysler New Yorker, with a monster 7L engine (440 cu. in., actually). Eventually, it became clear that Chrysler had not designed the front robustly enough to support the weight of that engine. After a bit of rusting from winter driving, the supports and front suspension components gradually bent and collapsed. That's just plain cheap and shoddy engineering. No excuse for that. All the American manufacturers did some of that, but Chrysler always pushed the cheapening more than the rest, often going too far. Additionally, that New Yorker was a terrible gas guzzler, getting a whopping 13 miles per gallon, and that good only if you took it easy. Nevertheless, it was better than their previous Chrysler, a 1963 model.
All the American manufacturers cheaped out to the max on compact cars. Had an '88 Ford Escort for a while, and it was terrible. Clutch would last only 50k miles, because they just plain made the clutch plate too small. Same story with the ball joints, too small, and worn out after 50k to 70k miles. Toyota's ball joints were nearly twice the size. Lot of other components were marginal and short-lived. Even the headlight switch failed. It also had crappy electronics for the ignition system, and the engine never idled smoothy. Making small cars cheap and shoddy was somewhat deliberate, to drive consumers to the bigger, and more profitable, models. If you wanted a good quality small car, had to be Japanese.
But Ford did splurge a little on useless and counterproductive bling. That lousy '88 Escort had a vanity mirror with lights in the sun visor. Lights would come on when the mirror was exposed. Problem was, the mirror was covered with a flap hinged at the bottom, and the flap was prone to coming loose when sunlight had heated the visor enough to soften the adhesive that held the velcro. One time as I was driving, it fell open, blocking my view through the windshield. Another time when parked, it did that trick and when we came back to the car hours later we found that the vanity lights had drained the battery. After that one, we removed those light bulbs.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 14 2020, @09:06PM
I like Hondas - bad head gasket? No problem at all to pull the block and rebuild it, even if it is OHC (and Honda manuals are /good/!). Don't even need a block-puller for that little 4 banger in the Civic.
(Score: 2) by epitaxial on Monday July 13 2020, @12:35PM (4 children)
Did they factor in labor prices for the German cars? I've own a few Mercedes (used) and parts aren't that expensive. I'd never take a used BMW or Audi though.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Spamalope on Monday July 13 2020, @07:38PM (2 children)
My '01 Mercedes SLK (had it from '04-'17 when I was rear ended) had an electric seat switch that stuck out too far. A shop broke it (and didn't own up to it). All that was broken was the plastic, removable post. Benz would not sell that part, or even the switch. Unavailable. You had to buy the lower seat assembly for $650 (which sounded substantial but was actually a cheap plastic bezel with the switch pre-mounted).
Chrysler Crossfires are coup versions of the car so I checked to see if the seats were the same. They were, and those seat assemblies were only $250! (still robbery for a .50 plastic post, but not $650 at least). However, Benz altered all the plugs so they weren't electrically compatible. (I can solder... so that didn't stop me but deliberate sabotage of interchangeability to enable price gouging still ticks me off - can you tell?)
The convertible top hydraulics, Benz used substandard seals that failed very early. The interior panels were glued with silicone caulking/adhesive instead of permanently bonded and the entire interior fell apart despite the car being climate controlled garage kept. The interior was coated with this rubberized coating that sluffed off so half the interior panels looked like the car had a disease.
The hoses and seals on the engine turned hard and brittle in heat, so a good thing engines don't get hot right? (bleh) But they were cheap and easy to change at least, and with quality replacements it was fixed just like with the convertible seals - except for the interior coating the poor parts could be replaced with quality and the problem never re-appeared.
But then the chassis was well made. The metal parts at least were alloy and a letter grade or two better than US cars. My GF had a Malibu the same year as my Benz, and it disintegrated. The electric system failed all over, switches and wiring harness connectors... once those started to go it totaled the car. The failure points kept failing repeatedly. Even the paint was so thin it oxidizing down to primer. She had to get rid of it in '11 and it looked like it'd been through a war despite a similar life. (the Benz looked good from the outside but for nose rock chips)
(Score: 2) by driverless on Tuesday July 14 2020, @02:58AM
And Yoda owned?
(Score: 2) by Tokolosh on Tuesday July 14 2020, @02:44PM
Mercedes in '01 was Chrysler, not Mercedes. It is well-known to avoid models from the Chrysler-Benz era. But that does not excuse the crappiness.
(Score: 2) by driverless on Tuesday July 14 2020, @02:51AM
Post-1980s BMWs are worth more as a collection of replacement parts for other post-1990s BMWs than a car (unless they've got better in the last ten years or so).
Which says a lot about them really.
(Score: 2) by inertnet on Monday July 13 2020, @01:11PM
In my experience the list is reasonably accurate. I've owned at least one Honda, Citroën, Toyota, Ford (European), Opel (European GM), Cadillac STS, BMW, Mercedes, Audi and I probably forgot a few. In my most expensive list, Cadillac is on top, Ford second. My Mercedes AMG was the best car I ever owned. Relatively high in maintenance costs (for instance it had 16 spark plugs and huge disk brakes), but it was very reliable, fun to drive and I hardly had any unexpected costs during years of ownership.
(Score: 2) by Tokolosh on Monday July 13 2020, @02:48PM (1 child)
My strategy is to buy a used Mercedes for 20% of its original price and do most of the maintenance myself. That way I reap the benefit of the poor resale value, and know that it is maintained properly. Parts are cheap online. For the occasional work that is outwith my capabilities, I have a reliable indy shop.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Nuke on Monday July 13 2020, @03:46PM
I do the same, except I have a Jeep. The more expensive a car is when new, the greater the price drop used, so I have tended to buy up-market cars about 4 years old. If you are patient you can find low mileage ones in almost mint condition. With two Jeeps over 17 years (I drive them until they are scrap) I've never needed to go to a repair shop, but there is not much I can't do and I know these cars better than most repair shops, including the main stealers.
My Jeep engine is a Mercedes and it is cheaper to get the spares from a Merc dealer than a Jeep dealer. That's if I can't get them from an independent supplier even cheaper.
(Score: 2) by toddestan on Tuesday July 14 2020, @01:43AM
Some of the brands on that list are kind of strange. Pontiac and Saturn were axed back in 2009, so any Pontiac and Saturn on the road is at least 10 years old now, and Mercury got culled in 2011 so the newest Mercury is almost as old. In that sense, it's no wonder the maintenance costs are going up as the ones that are left are wearing out and need more work. On the other hand, if you are a DIY mechanic, parts for those cars are cheap and widely available.
Though checking the link, that list was compiled back in 2016, so as always YMMV.
(Score: 2) by driverless on Tuesday July 14 2020, @02:45AM (3 children)
Interesting that there are no Italian cars there. If they were, they'd be at position 0, -1, -2, -3, .... You don't really own an Italian car, you're just put in charge of paying its bills.
(Score: 2) by fliptop on Tuesday July 14 2020, @10:49AM (2 children)
Fiat owns Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep. I also just noticed GMC is listed but not Ram.
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
(Score: 2) by driverless on Tuesday July 14 2020, @11:03AM (1 child)
Yeah but that's just brand ownership, I meant genuine designed-and-slapped-together-in-Italy cars, Alfa Romeo ("What's in the last ten pages of the Alfa owner's manual? Bus and train timetables") and Fiat ("How do you get spare parts for a Fiat? Follow another one around") being the main culprits.
(Score: 2) by fliptop on Tuesday July 14 2020, @12:45PM
Italian engines, transmissions and a lot of their technology are being put into Chrysler products [youtube.com].
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
(Score: 3, Touché) by jimbrooking on Monday July 13 2020, @10:11AM (11 children)
Maintenance Costs: $0.00.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 13 2020, @10:38AM
So you haven't crashed into a police car yet... nice.
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 13 2020, @10:45AM (2 children)
That's nice. Please report back in another 8 years, and make sure you include ALL costs associated with maintaining it. If you upgraded your status symbol before then, you lose! ROI is only better if you keep it a very long time, which most people simply can't do. You also didn't indicate whether your house has solar panels and a battery unit, those respective costs and whether you plan to stay where you live indefinitely.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 13 2020, @11:52AM
Question was maintenance, not fuel. Solar panels matter as much as gas impacts an ICE maintenance budget.
(Score: 2) by epitaxial on Monday July 13 2020, @12:38PM
Not that much actually https://www.tesloop.com/blog/2018/7/16/tesloops-tesla-model-s-surpasses-400000-miles-643737-kilometers [tesloop.com]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by VLM on Monday July 13 2020, @12:34PM (2 children)
How many miles on the battery?
Its kinda like saying I haven't spent a penny on my Yaris commuter car. Naw actually I've put near 50K miles on the engine, figure for a Toyota thats finally "broken in" maybe 1/4 used up?
(Score: 2) by SunTzuWarmaster on Tuesday July 14 2020, @03:54PM (1 child)
Our maintenance costs on our 2016 Nissan Leaf (electric) and 2009 Toyota Yaris (gas) have been, precisely, $0 since last October. While we haven't put big miles on the Yaris, we've put over 10K miles on the Leaf.
The fact that there are no electrics on the list means that the list sucks.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday July 14 2020, @05:40PM
Ugh you're missing the point completely.
Around here batteries die in about 4 years and cost maybe $80? Figure $20/year? So figure your Yaris starter battery has lost maybe a year of its life since October so you need to budget $20 for the starter battery alone?
Yeah YOU personally didn't spend $80 on a new four year battery within the last year, but accumulate 1000 Yaris owners and the group likely spent about $20000 total on batteries in the last year, which averages out to $20/yr.
I'm sure very few individual Toyota owners spent exactly $5500 last decade but on average Toyota owners spend half what Dodge owners spend on repairs, sure.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 13 2020, @03:47PM
One of my friends owns a Model X. He's happy with it because he loves to find bugs (he's less happy with Tesla's response to them being reported). Never asked him how much he's payed in maintenance.
One of my former managers bought a Model S. Amusingly, he was driving a different Model S for the first couple weeks while the one he was supposed to be using was in the shop.
Tesla's great when it works, but their consistency and build quality aren't there yet. Nor is their interior design; even after the refresh the S isn't where it should be for the price, and I utterly loathe center-stack gauges (3 and Y), even if they're big LCDs.
(Score: 2) by Nuke on Monday July 13 2020, @03:52PM
What a co-incidence! Just as you are posting this your Tesla has come up to needing a 2-yearly maintenence : https://www.tesla.com/support/car-maintenance [tesla.com]
(Score: 2) by Bot on Monday July 13 2020, @04:19PM (1 child)
Funny, my washing machine has the same maintenance costs. And pretty much the same appeal.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 13 2020, @05:05PM
Back in the days you used to be able to repair washing machines and dryers. Now a days they just want you to junk it and get a new one.
Bad for the environment but great for the profit margins of the manufacturers.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 13 2020, @10:13AM (8 children)
Don't seem Peugeot in that list. Isn't it sold in the US?
I wonder how that list is comparable/different to, for example, Europe.
Another question is about parts being imported (BMW/Mercedes-Benz?), import taxes, etc. vs. local brands? How much does the import process make up the costs?
(Score: 4, Informative) by zocalo on Monday July 13 2020, @10:39AM
I'm also assuming this is averaged out across all owners they have data for, but you'd also need to allow for personal circumstance. Someone driving less than 10K/year on mostly school and shopping runs over smooth roads is going to have a lot less wear and tear than someone at the other extreme doing over 100K/year and bouncing over rural roads that are riddled with potholes, and might not even be paved at all. It would be really useful to see those numbers broken out into a few stereotypical classes of driver - although I guess it's already pretty clear why so many taxi drivers prefer Toyota.
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 3, Funny) by Rosco P. Coltrane on Monday July 13 2020, @11:57AM (2 children)
Speaking of French cars, I remember reading decades ago (in the 70's or something) about the CEO of Renault giving an interview about a new model, and boasting that it may as well have the hood welded shut, as the engine wouldn't require maintenance within the lifetime of the car - to which a smart-ass journalist in the audience replied "Well yeah, the car will have rusted to the ground well before the first oil change is needed" :)
(Score: 2) by quietus on Monday July 13 2020, @02:30PM
I've heard modern versions of that joke -- together with all kinds of car horror porn -- about my own car, an Alfa Romeo 156.
It has 320,000+ kilometers.
(Score: 2) by fraxinus-tree on Monday July 13 2020, @03:17PM
Renault Espace 2.2 Quadra 2004 ~400000km (estimated, the counter was manipulated before me), only insignificant rust under the driver's feet. Renault Twingo 1.2 2003, ~230000km, no rust either. Regularily driven pre-covid and parked on the street. Sofia, Bulgaria, wet snow in winters and fscking salt everywhere.
Yes, they do have other problems. But their yearly maintenance is ~monthly lease for a similar size brand new car. Good luck making me replace them.
(Score: 1) by ncc74656 on Monday July 13 2020, @08:14PM (2 children)
Nope. No Citroen or Renault, either. (I suspect Renault earned an unofficial perma-ban from the US market due to their mishandling of AMC back in the '80s.) I've seen them infrequently on trips into Mexico, but on this side of the border, they're nonexistent.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by NateMich on Tuesday July 14 2020, @02:40AM
They aren't banned, but I would suspect the "Le Car" earned them such a poor reputation they had to leave.
(Score: 2) by fliptop on Tuesday July 14 2020, @10:52AM
Renault owns Nissan. Citroen is not sold in the U.S.
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
(Score: 2) by NateMich on Tuesday July 14 2020, @02:34AM
No, not since I was much younger. Fiat only recently returned, and only barely.
(Score: 2) by shortscreen on Monday July 13 2020, @10:53AM (3 children)
About a decade ago I read Roundel magazine and kept seeing letters from people who were puzzled by BMW's decision to remove the oil dipstick and require special tools to replace the friggin battery. Or they were lamenting the lack of spare tire or another expensive fuel pump failure. I think it was their tech writer Mike Miller who compared a huge tapered-roller bearing from the rear end of a 2600lb 325e, with the equivalent but much wimpier bearing from the latest models at that time which were also 1000lbs heavier. Letters from other people who had paid good money for a newer BMW and were satisfied with it asked for an end to the whining :)
The 7 series, the V8s and V12s, and the M engines were always known to have higher maintenance cost. But it looks like BMW has problems across the board these days.
Oh, and BTW... dual-mass flywheels suck too.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday July 13 2020, @11:10AM
Good brand to launch conspiracy theories too: Mystery surrounds car with 'COVID 19' number plate parked at Adelaide Airport for months [abc.net.au].
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Funny) by fraxinus-tree on Monday July 13 2020, @03:22PM
Do you know what BMW oil stick is for? You dip it in the snow cover. If the snow is above "max", BMW stays in the garage.
(Score: 2) by qzm on Tuesday July 14 2020, @06:42AM
E66, Put 150k miles on it.
In that time it had an alternator diode pack go bad (french part, funny enough). BMW wanted close to $1500 for the parts/labour to change the alternator - the diode pack cost $30 and took perhaps an hour to change myself.
The PCV breather gummed up - engine started EATING oil, smoking like a monster (suddenly), cleaned the PCV breather, back to perfect, no cost.
Currently the windscreen washer doesnt squirt water - must go find out why.
BMW tells you not to change the ATF fluid - which is ok if you want a new transmission every 100k . change the fluid every 60k and it is a rock.
Moral of the story? if you can spin a wrench and look after a car, they are not bad - if you drive in to the stealer for everything - horrific.
Have been considering an F01 (also 730ld).. they seem more plastic and the aluminum door panels are damn hard to repair.. undecided.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Bot on Monday July 13 2020, @11:02AM (16 children)
The newer the car, the more money squandered.
The repair itself is not a problem. You spend x on the engine head but you have a new one. Whereas, money spent on electronics is wasted.
The average age of my 2 vehicles is 37 years, no turbos in either, no A/C, no stuff that isn't involved with actually moving.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 4, Funny) by gmby on Monday July 13 2020, @11:47AM (2 children)
Ahh... You're just a Bot. You don't need things like AC, radio and seats!
Bye
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 13 2020, @03:50PM (1 child)
What does a bot need a car for? Put the damn wheels on yoself, fool.
(Score: 2) by Bot on Monday July 13 2020, @07:58PM
My center of gravity is too high for wheels.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 13 2020, @11:56AM (4 children)
Survivor bias.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 13 2020, @12:32PM (2 children)
"survivor bias"
Wow, aren't you the super clever genius. Bias? Makes no sense (as usual). It's an anecdote. How is bias involved in relating experience?
Oh, I get it, Bot has many brand new cars, but is biased in telling only about the older ones.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 13 2020, @01:42PM (1 child)
Whoosh.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 13 2020, @03:05PM
"Whoosh" - the sound of arrogant but moronic talking out your ass.
(Score: 2) by Bot on Monday July 13 2020, @08:36PM
Of the cars who did not survive:
fiat 124 sport 1969 (coupe, I wouldn't have gotten rid of the spider),bought used after much downtime, stranded once oil decided to leave the gearbox, no trouble afterwards.
fiat 127 1980ish, 500 1971, and lancia Y 1998, no troubles
fiesta 2007 and fiat punto 1994 recurring little troubles
audi 2001 little trouble
funnily enough the only old car I know that had serious trouble was the beetle 1303 cabriolet of my schoolmate which blew the engine, also bought used after probably much downtime.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by ElizabethGreene on Monday July 13 2020, @11:58AM (2 children)
I agree, to a point.
Here I disagree, but I understand why you'd have that opinion. The transition from mostly mechanical engine control systems to mostly electronic systems sucked. Now that we're on the other side of it things are remarkably better than they used to be. I've adjusted points and condenser ignition system, and there is no comparison to a solid state ignition module. If the latter fails within the service life of the vehicle you probably got a bad one. I grumble about the cost of coil packs, but then again I don't have to replace a distributor cap and rotor to get my car to start in the rain. Mechanical carburetors were and still are straight black magic.
I do get annoyed with some of the emissions stuff, but I can't argue that it hasn't made a difference. It's rare to drive behind a car that reeks of unburned fuel now. That was very much not the case when I was growing up.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Bot on Monday July 13 2020, @06:25PM (1 child)
I might agree with you on purely technical perspective, but from a marketing POV we have cars using electronics for programmed obsolescence and increasing repair costs. All in the name of safety and emissions. Personally the safer car is the one that makes me quite aware of the fact that I am speeding and doesn't require me to push more weight around to turn or brake. And fuel consumption is not the only variable in the sustainability of an item wrt the environment.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 2) by ElizabethGreene on Monday July 13 2020, @11:32PM
Your point on programmed obsolescence is spot on. I'm generally opposed to federal "help" wrt manufactured goods, but I wouldn't mind seeing the federal 8 year/80k Mile emissions component warranty expanded to cover a lot more systems.
As for non-drivetrain electronics... I haven't met an infotainment system yet that wasn't absolute crap.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday July 13 2020, @12:12PM (2 children)
This ^^^ a thousand times this ^^^.
The table is lacking several dimensions, and the 5% for purchase + 5% for maintenance is extremely dependent on the age of the vehicles, income of the owner, etc.
Case in point: 2002 Mercedes S430 - purchase price new in 2002: $80K. Purchase price used in 2016 with 44K miles: $12K. Previous owners were paying $1.54 (plus dealer commission) per mile just for depreciation. We adopted it in 2016 and have paid $6K in maintenance for the last 60K miles $0.30 per mile for maintenance and depreciation for us - we pay something less than $0.15 per mile for fuel, and probably land just under the federal estimate of $0.55 per mile TCO when you throw insurance on there. But, who does your maintenance? If we went with the dealer, our maintenance costs would have been triple, at least. DIY I could have cut those maintenance costs in half.
Mazda - which Mazda, how do you maintain it? I bought "a Mazda" new in 1991 for $14K, and pure maintenance costs over the last 29 years have been less than $7K - it stranded me, needing a tow, exactly once in 115,000 miles so far (and that one, a timing belt, I knew needed doing, had the parts and tools, was within 30 miles of starting the job, but... sometimes you wait just a little too long...) But, I've put another $14K into that car in modifications, including a turbocharger - so, did my Mazda really just cost $28K to purchase? We bought another Mazda - 16 years old with 105,000 miles - for $2500, have put another $2500 into maintenance over the last 35,000 miles.
All in all, I think our maintenance + insurance costs run quite a bit less than 5% of income, and even if you total all four owned vehicles up against income, they don't come up to 5% of income for purchase, either. Now, when we used to do 1000 mile per week or higher road trips, we would rent - even when starting from home - but that's just a matter of preference, as our local Enterprise found out when they pissed us off and our rentals dropped from 2 or 3 per year to 0.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by epitaxial on Monday July 13 2020, @12:43PM (1 child)
The S430s are usually more expensive than their larger displacement brothers. I don't know why. You can buy an S550 cheaper and have way more fun.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday July 13 2020, @02:59PM
They're all getting really rare - and cheap when they do come up, none of the 2001-2004 era S will fetch over $10K anymore, regardless of miles or condition.
Like I said, we put 60K miles on our 430 in the last 4 years, not really looking for worse fuel economy - sure a 600 would be more fun, but also quite a bit higher cost of ownership - wear out the tires and other things faster, not to mention fuel economy. The 430 has been a hell of a comfortable car for the price, not stranded us yet, and it's fast enough for a family car.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by epitaxial on Monday July 13 2020, @12:41PM (1 child)
Oh boy throttle body injection and smog pumps. You must only go out to buy a Sunday paper every week with those vehicles.
(Score: 2) by Bot on Monday July 13 2020, @08:54PM
I wouldn't care much if they smoked as it seems silly to mind cars when container ships pollute like entire cities and nobody bats an eye. But among the cars I drove the worst was the 2001 audi and the 2007 ford both TD and cat, the others simply don't.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 2) by noneof_theabove on Monday July 13 2020, @12:00PM (1 child)
purchased a Mazda 3 Hatchback [touring model] on 11 Dec 2012
Change oil with Full Synthetic what ever the manual said 0-30W or 5-30W EVERY 10,000 miles [includes new filter]
running on 2nd set of tires, original made 60K
Brakes still perfect, I don't fly up to stop lights/signs and cram on breaks also drive ahead of car in front of me.
Did you know if you kill the cruise control when the sign says change ahead, magically you will be at or on the new speed.
Would I by another, of course, but I bought it as the last one, 66 with health issues the will take me out sooner than later.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 13 2020, @10:01PM
Thanks - and thanks for being calm and realistic about mortality.
(Score: 4, Informative) by VLM on Monday July 13 2020, @12:31PM (4 children)
Some of this is stealership greed.
I had a Saturn back in the day and they all had two problems:
1) The Brakes were designed for a car weighing like 1000 pounds less, like a golf cart, so they wore rather fast. If they just put Camero brakes on Saturns, the brakes would last the life of the car, but nooooo they had to use golf cart parts.
2) All Saturn made engines had Saturn disease where after 120K or so miles the valve guides in the head were designed to leak more, such that you'd burn about one half to one quart of engine oil per kilomile. Which was slow enough to have no effect on plug fouling or emissions, but you'd have to add a qt between oil changes. Now a qt of the cheap stuff might be $2. And a complete engine top half rebuild would eliminate that but cost like $1000. It would never pay off if you can do math, but doing math is a rare and revolutionary act, so I'm sure many people wasted a kilobuck on high oil consumption Saturns.
(Score: 2) by epitaxial on Monday July 13 2020, @12:48PM (1 child)
I inherited an old Saturn. It drove decent and got great mileage but started burning a quart of oil per week! Eventually one cylinder started to misfire and the compression was low so off to the scrap heap it went.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday July 14 2020, @12:53PM
Unless you're driving 1000 miles per week (as some do...) that's a fatal ring problem not the famous valve guide problem. I suppose in a million miles the valve guides could be worn and rattle enough to ruin compression, LOL.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by tizan on Monday July 13 2020, @02:34PM (1 child)
May be anecdotal...
I have a Saturn SC1 from 2000 manual gear
At 170K miles now and still running ...change oil 2 times a year... no electrical windows erc...i.e why no much maintainance in all of this.
In 20 years replaced an engine support and a broken gear cable.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday July 14 2020, @12:48PM
Engine mounts are disposable and the rubber wears out. My strategy back when I wrenched on my own cars was to replace the engine mounts when I replaced the car battery. I honestly don't remember much of this process but on a 90s era SC2 engine I do remember at least the top mount was like a 30 minute job given the right tools. I vaguely recall the engine mount (parts only) cost about as much as the battery, seemed steep to charge as much as a battery for essentially a friggin huge o-ring.
I like the strategy of "when I replace the battery, replace the engine mount". Easy to remember.
I find it very surprising how a driver can get used to engine vibration slowly over time until the whole car rattles; its a nice creature comfort upgrade to have a vibration-less car again.
(Score: 3, Funny) by epitaxial on Monday July 13 2020, @12:46PM (2 children)
Wonder why they left Porsche off the list? They have gotten pretty good reliability scores lately. I'd definitely take a Cayenne for a daily driver.
(Score: 2) by Spamalope on Monday July 13 2020, @07:42PM (1 child)
Well, when you need to service the engine seals/accessories...
Why don't you open the hood? Oh... I wonder what that does to labor costs?
If you need a lift and or engine out for servicing, you're dependent on dealers.
Maint paid by someone else though? Yeah, those are nice sporty mid range high line cars.
(Score: 2) by epitaxial on Wednesday July 15 2020, @01:24PM
The Cayenne is the SUV. It doesn't need any engine out services.
(Score: 2) by Username on Monday July 13 2020, @01:01PM (1 child)
They're not made anymore. The only expensive Pontiac I know of is the GTO. Rest were cheap rust bucket commuter cars people drove until it stopped moving then it went to the junkyard. You could, and can buy one used for $500 or less. Is it so high up from people restoring the classic ones?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 14 2020, @03:42AM
One exception, Pontiac Vibe, nearly same as Toyota Matrix, both built at the NUMMI plant (where Tesla is now), when it was joint Toyota GM ownership (and Toyota management).
A friend gave me his 5-speed Vibe just before he died of cancer, 5 years ago. It's at 125K miles now and has been pretty good. Only one expensive repair, a failed starter motor. Conveniently I live at the top of hill, so I was able to coast down and bump start the car to get it to the shop...
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 13 2020, @01:30PM (1 child)
A friend sold Ford/Chevrolet/Chrysler parts at a dealership for 10 years and he had all sorts of stories about getting OEM parts for the Big 3 brands when the auto is more than 3 model years old. The Big 3 wanted you to lease and do not care about the long tail. This was not just for cars too - they stop producing many OEM parts for trucks as well after a a few model years. This may have changed a bit in the past few years (my friend no longer does parts purchasing). He had many stories about OEM parts that took 3+ months to source on cars and trucks less than 5 years old.
Conversely, when he sold BMW and Toyota parts, he did not have these issues. He mentioned that BMW maintains an OEM parts supply chain going back 20 model years. Anecdotally, I recently got rid of my 2005 E46 as it had 210,000 miles on it- I could still purchase every part I needed OEM if I chose (I needed a lot of parts).
(Score: 1) by ncc74656 on Monday July 13 2020, @08:26PM
The only time you buy parts from the stealership is when O'Reilly/AutoZone/Pep Boys/etc. don't have it, and that isn't very often. I used to drive older cars exclusively (first was an '80 Chevette I started driving in '89, followed by an '83 Celebrity in '96 and a '77 Cutlass Supreme in '99), and only once did I need to hit up the stealership for a part (an AIR control valve for the Celebrity). Even though it was well over a decade old, the local Chevy dealer still had it (at a fairly stiff price, but when you need it to get your car to pass smog, you bite the bullet).
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday July 13 2020, @02:39PM (6 children)
Pretty much exactly that over my lifetime. Except I've yet to spend that much on a Toyota. Ever. And I tend to drive them to at least a quarter million miles.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by NickM on Monday July 13 2020, @09:06PM (2 children)
Are oil changes that cheap on a Toyota ?
I ask because the manual of my Mazda prescribe 1 change every 6 month or 8000km whichever come first and they require synthetic 0w30, it ain't exactly cheap even at an independent mechanic.
I a master of typographic, grammatical and miscellaneous errors !
(Score: 2) by cmdrklarg on Monday July 13 2020, @09:13PM (1 child)
My RAV4 gets synthetic, but it only gets changed every 10K miles. Costs more per change, but done less often.
The world is full of kings and queens who blind your eyes and steal your dreams.
(Score: 2) by NickM on Monday July 13 2020, @09:32PM
I a master of typographic, grammatical and miscellaneous errors !
(Score: 2) by cmdrklarg on Monday July 13 2020, @09:11PM (2 children)
I've been driving Toyotas for 10 years now. I've been leasing RAV4's (I'm on my 4th one) and they have been extremely reliable. The only one that has needed work was the 2016 one that was in an accident (some damn fool turned left in front of me). I would have bought that one off lease had it not been in a crash. I really like my 2019; I'll probably buy this one if it comes out unscathed, unless somebody sells a small electric pickup truck, which I will buy ASAP.
The world is full of kings and queens who blind your eyes and steal your dreams.
(Score: 2) by cmdrklarg on Monday July 13 2020, @09:20PM
Forgot to add: before the Toyotas I drove a 2000 Dodge Dakota quad cab pickup for 8 years. Very reliable, only big issues were that the electronic door lock actuators tended to fail, and the headlight relay crapped out so the low beams quit working.
The world is full of kings and queens who blind your eyes and steal your dreams.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 14 2020, @05:05AM
I currently own a Toyota Yaris. It is fine for reliability, but some design decisions make working on the thing pretty terrible. I had to replace the water pump, and to do it, you have to remove the motor mounts, and hang the engine on a jack to get the extra couple mm clearance needed to remove the damn thing. The clutch pedal bracket is attached by a bolt that is accessed from above, by removing the dash! There is a whole lot of WTF in the design of this thing.
I had a Nissan pickup before this that had almost 600,000 hard working miles on it when I parted with it (3/4 ton loads daily; it had 1 ton springs). It never had any issues. No oil usage, and no non-consumable part failed except the alternator. I replaced the clutch twice, and brakes a few times, lots of tires. But, with Nissan now owned/partnered by/with Renault, I'm kinda afraid to go near one.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 13 2020, @02:56PM
Certainly matches my experience! BMW: piece of shit moneypit. Toyota: reliable and cheaper to repair. It also matches my experience that Honda costs a good bit more than Toyota to keep running. Parts cost more and things break more often (transmission!). Honda used to build good cars in the 20th century, but the 21st has been a shitshow. Toyota keeps on truckin'. If you want reliability these days, do not get a Honda. I've had brake rotors warp just from using them in wet conditions, paint chips off and shows rust on a new car, etc. These are all signs of a company cheaping out on materials. Yet they still sell the car for a high price because it's "reliable". It's not. Bad experience with the past 2 Hondas, old Toyota still going strong.
(Score: 1) by Sulla on Monday July 13 2020, @03:46PM (1 child)
1986 Vanagon - Grandpa bought this new, in 34 years and 800k miles it has gone through three sets of tires, one engines, one transmission, and odd repairs here and there (fuel line likes to rot out). Since it was passed down to me in '09 I have put 4k into it to keep it running, but is currently dead in my driveway until I put engine #3 into it and replace the radiator and the fuel lines (again).
1996 Explorer - Had this from '10-13 from 130-190k miles. Still had all of its original parts so I doubt it cost the original owner much money. Ended up making money on this vehicle. Bought it for 1500, was totaled and I was sent a check for 4000, sold it back to the dealership for 1500. Probably had to spend 500 on it in small repairs while I had it, so made me 3500.
2012 Caravan - Owned since 2014 and 40k miles with no prior issues. Other than general everything on it being absolute shit and low quality has worked okay since then. Engine is starting to give me trouble and the transmission is showing signs of future issues. Almost caught fire because the seat controls rub against metal and short out causing a bunch of parts to melt and the carpet to get singed. Repaired the faulty wiring and made sure it can't happen again, but need to get rid of it. In these 6 years has cost me less than $100 in repairs.
2013 F150 - Bought new, now at 70k miles. Zero issues or repairs needed.
2016 F150 - Bought new, now at 50k miles. The stock shocks were absolute shit and had to buy new ones. Other than the $60 to replace those I have had zero issues in these four years.
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 14 2020, @03:59AM
> 1986 Vanagon - Grandpa bought this new, in 34 years and 800k miles it has gone through three sets of tires
I call BS on this. Nobody gets 266K miles on a set of tires. Or if you meant the tires were replaced 3 times (4 sets including the original), that would still be 200K miles/set of tires, not bloody likely.
If it's really 800K miles, then maybe 13 sets of tires would be more likely.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 13 2020, @04:22PM (1 child)
Is a harem.
(Score: 2) by Bot on Monday July 13 2020, @09:00PM
I trust you on this, you're the eunuch right?
Account abandoned.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 13 2020, @05:12PM
I always see articles here about how expensive it is to own and maintain a Mercedes or a BMW. Every little thing that goes wrong costs a fortune. They eventually want to charge you a monthly fee to heat the seat along with every little additional 'feature'. Forget the fact that part of the point of paying for an expensive car is so that you can have all these additional luxuries come stock.
Oh you can probably hack the seat heater but, as I've said before, the type of person that buys a BMW is not the type of person that would do this because these are not the type of people that are looking for the best bang for their buck. Better to just opt for a Toyota or a Honda, like myself, if you are looking for the best bang for your buck.