SoylentNews is people
SoylentNews
According to siliconbeat.com, it appears that the latest terms and conditions to use PayPal include you agreeing to accept telemarketing calls...
Well, says the BBC, get ready for a new barrage, because changes to PayPal's terms and conditions starting in July state that users must accept automated marketing calls, emails and texts:
The eBay-owned company told the BBC that it "would honour any customers' requests to decline marketing outreach". But no such opt-out is included in the terms and conditions. Instead customers are invited to either accept or decline.
"If you do not agree to the amended user agreement, privacy policy or acceptable use policy, you may close your account before July 1, 2015 and you will not be bound by the amended terms," the document states.
The linked article later goes on:
The user agreement goes on to state: "You consent to receive autodialed or pre-recorded calls and text messages from PayPal at any telephone number that you have provided us or that we have otherwise obtained."
See how slippery this slope is? If PayPal somehow "obtains" your grandma's home phone, grandma might also start getting unwanted calls because, as the agreement goes on to say, PayPal "may share your phone numbers with our affiliates."
PayPal does say that its robocalls would be used to help customers with account issues or resolve disputes. But it also states that they could be for "offers and promotions," perhaps the two most dreaded words these days among consumers burned out by a nonstop onslaught of in-your-face advertising for things we never wanted in the first place.
Original Submission
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2015, @04:47PM
So this is why they all want you to sign up and give a phone number and CC. They are using the count of these "owned" by the company as a metric to raise investment/advertizing funds.
http://venturebeat.com/2015/06/07/sony-music-ceo-confirms-launch-of-apples-music-streaming-service-tomorrow/ [venturebeat.com]
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Monday June 08 2015, @07:43PM
In modern Western accounting, everything is considered a Liability, except:
- Cash, tax credits, and short-term investments
- Patents & license agreements
- Customer databases
Didn't see people, products or even owned buildings? Yup.
We're fucked.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by TWX on Monday June 08 2015, @04:47PM
...I always have doubts about services. This is why I don't like signing up for things like Netflix, or using e-Book readers that have DRM and a connection back to the "publisher", or music services like iTunes, or to even signing up for premium services from companies like Amazon and their Prime shipping. I simply do not trust that companies will do the right thing for their customers. Hell, the services that I cannot avoid subscribing to (aka utilities and Internet connectivity) already do enough to screw-over their customers; why would I want to add to that morass of crap voluntarily?
IBM had PL/1, with syntax worse than JOSS...
and everywhere the language went, it was a total loss.
(Score: 5, Informative) by The Archon V2.0 on Monday June 08 2015, @06:26PM
> why would I want to add to that morass of crap voluntarily?
As Bruce Schneier said, "We choose to do it because of the convenience, redundancy, automation, and shareability." But the system vendors have created is a basically feudal one, and they're the liege lords.
https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/12/feudal_sec.html [schneier.com]
(Score: 5, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2015, @04:48PM
https://stories.paypal-corp.com/home/an-update-on-how-we-contact-you [paypal-corp.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2015, @08:32PM
PayPal to users: Actually, you can opt out of robocalls [venturebeat.com]
-- gewg_
(Score: 4, Insightful) by sjames on Monday June 08 2015, @10:27PM
Interestingly, that whole reply carefully excludes the topic of 3rd party contacts, that is, the part people were concerned about.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2015, @06:51AM
When the legal department says one thing, and customer service says another...
Legal is always right.
When the lawyers write that they reserve the right to call you with offers, the bean counters have already calculated with losing X% of customers, and decided that the income from this advertising will be larger than the income lost by those customers leaving. All customer support gets to do is trying to minimize the backlash.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2015, @04:49PM
Hahaha, oh wow [kym-cdn.com]
Step by step, all your 'paranoid' friends don't seem so paranoid anymore, do they?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2015, @08:42PM
So I'm not in the US but sometimes need to use PayPal (distro donations). Without me creating an account PayPal gather a phone number, etc anyway .. is it safe? Might they abuse this data in future? Should I stop donating to my favourite distro?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2015, @08:10AM
yes, yes, and systemd
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2015, @04:55PM
I own my own domain so I already use per-contact email addresses - amazon think's my email address is amazon@mydomain.com (I actually encrypt and timestamp the 'amazon' part so it isn't obvious what I'm doing) - in order to manage crap like this. I want to do the same for phones, but I haven't found an affordable way to maintain 20+ different phone numbers. Google voice is free, but you have to tie to a real phone so google can undo it all. I'd be willing to pay 2-3 dollars a year for a phone number plus any actual minutes used. Is there a service like that?
(Score: 4, Informative) by Nerdfest on Monday June 08 2015, @05:09PM
There are services like this. I actually use it for my phone for both home and mobile. I use Fongo (here in Canada) which is free. You pay for long distance outside major centres and for texts on mobile ($2/month). You can only be logged into one number at a time, but you can sign up for multiples. I think you may need to log in every 4 months or so to keep it active.
Pretty nice deal, and good quality as well. I actually don't have a voice plan for my phone and just use a tablet plan ... it ends up costing ~20$/month and there's no contract. The only disadvantage is less integration with core services on Android for using Tasker or voice actions for calling and SMS.
I haven't used it for the phone equivalent of per signup email addresses as the only company that spams me with SMS is my actual mobile provider, but I block the calls on messages on my 'real' cell number.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2015, @05:14PM
This would be awesome.
(Score: 2) by akinliat on Monday June 08 2015, @07:50PM
The cheapest that I managed to find when I was looking to replace my phone service was Flowroute -- they offer a block of 20 DIDs for $14.95 US per month. Nothing fancy, though, just a basic SIP service without voicemail.
(Score: 3, Informative) by gnuman on Monday June 08 2015, @08:14PM
I'd be willing to pay 2-3 dollars a year for a phone number plus any actual minutes used.
2-3 dollars per MONTH + about 1500-3000 included minutes, yes.
callwithus.com and others on did exchange.
https://www.callwithus.com/ [callwithus.com]
https://www.didx.net/ [didx.net]
You can also get a free US number, but you need incoming calls on it or they will delete it after 1 month of no usage,
http://www.ipkall.com/ [ipkall.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2015, @09:02PM
> 2-3 dollars per MONTH + about 1500-3000 included minutes, yes.
Per number? For a number that might get 1 call every 3 months? Not fit for purpose.
(Score: 1) by tftp on Tuesday June 09 2015, @03:44AM
http://www.ipkall.com/
I was interested in signing up (as long as they don't need my other phone number :-) but I cannot solve the captcha :-( These days you have to be a computer to do that reliably.
(Score: 1) by shipofgold on Monday June 08 2015, @08:32PM
My solution to this is to setup my own Asterisk "dialMenu" for unrecognized numbers.
Those with callerID on the whitelist go directly to ringing.
Those with callerID on the blacklist go to "triTone" to simulate a disconnected line...some autobots recognize that and remove the number from the lists.
All other callerIDs are asked to press a digit to make sure they are at least human.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2015, @01:44AM
I also use per service email addresses and am surprised who sells my information (in some cases I suspect compromised systems or bad employees).
As for the throwaway services I don't want to contact me, I just point them to the the FCC. I figure if they start robocalling the FCC complaint line it will get some attention. Alternatively you can offer a fax line, various per minute toll lines (in case their calling system is misconfigured they can ring up some serious charges), etc.
(Score: 1) by Frost on Monday June 08 2015, @05:11PM
You don't have permission to access "http://www.paypal.com/" on this server.
Reference #18.c3070f17.1433783407.1b5a9357
(Score: 1) by beernutz on Monday June 08 2015, @06:01PM
You might have to use httpS with pp. I don't think they allow un-encrypted connections.
(Score: 1) by Frost on Monday June 08 2015, @06:21PM
URL bar shows https:// while error message shows http:// .
(Score: 2) by ikanreed on Monday June 08 2015, @07:20PM
Oh, they just bugged out on my attempt to close my account.
(Score: 2, Informative) by kazzie on Monday June 08 2015, @05:41PM
The BBC article specifies that this revision of terms and conditions applies to US customers.
I guess I'm safe for the time being...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2015, @05:54PM
Close your PP anyway account for good measure just in case.
(Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Monday June 08 2015, @07:10PM
Its moot for some of us. The funny thing is that ebay (as well as other bazaars like Craigslist) drove down the local meatspace prices for anything that could be found in a pawn shop. If your livelihood depends on paypal you're probably fucked, but if you're average joe occasional used knicknack buyer you could take advantage of local options.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2015, @05:56PM
This is what happens when i try to close my account (fyi its in good standings there's no good reason for this)
http://puu.sh/ihetT/c5d4ef73da.png [puu.sh]
i think we should all just go directly to the call centre and cost them as much as possible in closing our accuonts as we can
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2015, @06:13PM
http://puu.sh???? [puu.sh] That domain is blocked by me...
Why can't you use a normal site?
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2015, @06:44PM
Once upon a time, I decided that I'd had enough getting burned as a customer on eBay. The latest incident was where I'd bid on a MicroSD card, won the auction for a very low price, and then the seller *somehow* cancelled the sale, which shouldn't even be possible for normal auctions.
Anyway, I decided to close my accounts. My PayPal account was pretty easy to close; it "just worked" when I went through the process. My eBay account, however, had the exact issue you're getting where it says that there's problems closing the account.
I did the sensible thing and called them about it, and they pretty much (in accents that I couldn't quite understand) told me to do the process again. It didn't work. I couldn't understand them so I just hung up.
This is where it became a month-long process to close my account. I went through every "contact us" thing I could find on their website (which is very hard to locate e-mail addresses on) and, from the e-mail address registered with my account, sent them messages stating clearly that I (I'll even quote) "do not agree to the terms of service, and that I intend to violate the terms of service repeatedly until my account is closed". It's true; I mean, I even selected "do not agree to terms of service" in their account closing procedure that kept giving me that message!
It didn't work, and I never even received a single reply. So, I tried again a week or so later, this time telling them that I was going to post my account name and password on various forums around the 'net. I figured I'd get -something- back from their customer support e-mail, but I never did! So, I went into my preferences, and changed everything around with all sorts of false info. A fake address, a fake name, a fake e-mail address, and then I gave my friend my password. It was probably safe since my PayPal account was actually closed and unlinked from my eBay account.
My friend changed my account name to "Mostly_Dildos" and spammed up eBay's support forums with all sorts of hilarious messages, and when they finally banned him from there, he started bidding on all sorts of random junk with outrageous bid amounts while we chatted on IRC. It was hilarious. The e-mails he received were like "Dear Dildos, Mostly (Mostly_Dildos), you've won your auction! blah blah"
But eventually I got an e-mail myself at the address I'd originally had registered with the account. They reverted my account info, retracted all the fake bids my friend had put on, and told me kindly that my account had been hacked and that if I simply click the link in the e-mail to change my password, I could continue on like nothing had ever happened.
I almost thought about doing it and then giving my friend the info again. Anyway, my account still isn't closed. It's in some kind of limbo state where it requires a password change. If someone had hacked my e-mail account, they'd probably be free to do this like an endless cycle.
It is impossible to close an eBay or PayPal account when it has "problems". It is absolutely impossible.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Monday June 08 2015, @11:18PM
Just mess up all contact info and abandon the account?
(Score: 1) by anubi on Tuesday June 09 2015, @01:29AM
Think carefully, VERY carefully, before opening any sort of "account". Opening the door to some businesses, even if just a crack, is sometimes damned near impossible to close.
The easiest way to deal with those businesses, by FAR, is to never give them any information AT ALL in the first place.
Try like the dickens not to even say a word to them. Once you recognize what it is, ignore them. They always have a trick up their sleeve offering you a free* thing.
Every time I have accepted their offering, I lived to regret it. Big time.
That is why I will not even answer the phone if I do not recognize the incoming number. Like the poster above me, I need to set up an "asterisk" system so I can deliberately waste the time of telemarketers. Hopefully they will take their business solicitation elsewhere. Just giving a telemarketer the courtesy of answering his call carries the probability you find yourself appended onto a shared list of nitwits that will even talk to a telemarketer.
My experience is that any business that contacts ME is very risky. Word-of-mouth information from neighbors is thousands of times more accurate than anything you will get in print or over the phone. Telephone marketers are by far the worst. They carefully have absolutely NO record of what was agreed on, but if they succeed in coaxing an "appointment" with you, you will be in for relentless high pressure marketing delivered in person. They will have forms, and you will see their pens dancing on the paper with every syllable you utter. No telling what kind of bill you are gonna get. They are a business, and work with collection agencies, and its your credit score at risk for even giving a marketer the time of day.
*For selected customers with qualifying purchase.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Tuesday June 09 2015, @01:52AM
It's hard to do some online business without a PayPal account. However the contact information given to PP could be setup to end in a phone and email /dev/null (with a content log). And I'll like you won't give telemarketers any connection at all. They will be terminated on sight.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 09 2015, @01:56AM
Suggestion: when you set up your asterisk system, set it so that the caller is redirected through an endless list of extensions. Even more fun is if this convoluted maze of extensions eventually lead back to the top level to start all over again. Give these guys a taste of their own medicine.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 08 2015, @06:50PM
trying to cancel my account, do not want, DO NOT WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANT
(Score: 4, Insightful) by No Respect on Monday June 08 2015, @07:57PM
They used to have it. Until I moved. They also don't have any of my current bank acct info. They did, until I changed banks. I use PayPal for credit card transactions mainly where I don't want to hand over my CC number to yet another party who may or may not be trustworthy. Paypal keeps reminding every week that I should "complete" my registration with them by supplying bank account info. Nope! Not gonna do it. For the same reason Google can kiss my ass if they think I'm giving them an honest-to-goodness phone number.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Monday June 08 2015, @11:23PM
Oh sure PayProblem may spam my contact channels. Here they are:
gofuckyourself-paypal@example.com
+99812345678
I suppose one could setup two PayProblem accounts? such that when there's a difference in incoming email or texts. You know it's actual worthwhile info. And the phone number could be VoIP one that you abandon the very next month?
CC of a debit card?
In the long run perhaps this will open up for competitors without the bullshit of the American banking sector?
(Score: 2) by coolgopher on Tuesday June 09 2015, @01:59AM
I wonder if they've been clever enough to filter out "premium services" numbers from their autodiallers. If not, that would be hilarious as a protest action if enough people switched to those kinds of numbers...
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Tuesday June 09 2015, @04:40PM
I was hoping that Paypal was doing something that would reduce telemarketer calls . . . I know, silly me.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"