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posted by janrinok on Friday October 23 2015, @05:53AM   Printer-friendly
from the you-can't-handle-the-truth dept.

American history is filled with war stories that subsequently unraveled. Consider the Bush administration's false claims about Saddam Hussein's supposed arsenal of weapons of mass destruction or the imagined attack on a U.S. vessel in the Gulf of Tonkin. Now Johnathan Mahler writes in the NY Times about the inconsistencies in the official US story about bin Laden's death. "Almost immediately, the administration had to correct some of the most significant details of the raid," writes Mahler. Bin Laden had not been ''engaged in a firefight,'' as the deputy national-security adviser, John Brennan, initially told reporters; he'd been unarmed. Nor had he used one of his wives as a human shield. The president and his senior advisers hadn't been watching a ''live feed'' of the raid in the Situation Room; the operation had not been captured on helmet-cams.

But according to Mahler there is the sheer improbability of the story itself, which asked us to believe that Obama sent 23 SEALs on a seemingly suicidal mission, invading Pakistani air space without air or ground cover, fast-roping into a compound that, if it even contained bin Laden, by all rights should have been heavily guarded. How likely was that? Abbottabad is basically a garrison town; the conspicuously large bin Laden compound — three stories, encircled by an 18-foot-high concrete wall topped with barbed wire — was less than two miles from Pakistan's equivalent of West Point. ''The story stunk from Day 1,'' says Seymour Hersh whose most consequential claim was about how bin Laden was found in the first place. According to Hersh, it was not years of painstaking intelligence-gathering, he wrote, that led the United States to the courier and, ultimately, to bin Laden. Instead, the location was revealed by a ''walk-in'' — a retired Pakistani intelligence officer who was after the $25 million reward that the United States had promised anyone who helped locate him. And according to Hersh, the daring raid wasn't especially daring. The Pakistanis allowed the U.S. helicopters into their airspace and cleared out the guards at the compound before the SEALs arrived. The most blatant lie was that Pakistan's two most senior military leaders – General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, chief of the army staff, and General Ahmed Shuja Pasha, director general of the ISI – were never informed of the US mission.

"It's not that the truth about bin Laden's death is unknowable," concludes Mahler. "it's that we don't know it. And we can't necessarily console ourselves with the hope that we will have more answers any time soon; to this day, the final volume of the C.I.A.'s official history of the Bay of Pigs remains classified. We don't know what happened more than a half-century ago, much less in 2011."


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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @06:19AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @06:19AM (#253511)

    It probably shows I'm still young in a way, but finding out about bin Laden being killed was a very weird day for me.
    While I understand that it is very unlikely the US has hidden knowledge from undisclosed communications with aliens, and they're just waiting for the right time to bring out new technologies, a big part of me would like to believe that hidden organizations that concern themselves with the bigger picture do exist, and they do have a significant measure of control over the world.
    And then, suddenly, out comes the president of the US, relieved at having successfully killed a relatively defenceless old guy in his bedroom. It suddenly became obvious that all these "world leaders" are just grasping at straws, doing their best when they are actually overwhelmed, and they're just being carried by history like the rest of us. Even though their actions have severe consequences for everyone, they usually have no idea what those consequences are...

    All of these revelations are scary, because they show just how chaotic history really is, but they actually make perfect sense. It's just that I would like not to believe them. And I honestly have no idea how to convince people in general that they can't let themselves be overwhelmed by the fear, since I myself don't like to think about these things.

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  • (Score: 3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @06:33AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @06:33AM (#253513)

    It suddenly became obvious that all these "world leaders" are just grasping at straws, doing their best when they are actually overwhelmed, and they're just being carried by history like the rest of us.

    That's what they want you to think.

    Where is OBL's body again?

    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Friday October 23 2015, @04:27PM

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday October 23 2015, @04:27PM (#253640) Journal

      That's what they want you to think.

      Sure they do. That's our modern masters. So competent they can anticipate every possible rebuttal. So incompetent that they do so in a really clueless way.

      Where is OBL's body again?

      Doesn't matter. If they really were that competent, they would have a body.

      • (Score: 4, Informative) by unzombied on Friday October 23 2015, @07:20PM

        by unzombied (4572) on Friday October 23 2015, @07:20PM (#253710)

        If they really were that competent, they would have a body.

        If they really were that competent, they would have a trial at the International Criminal Court before deciding judgment.

        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Friday October 23 2015, @08:38PM

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday October 23 2015, @08:38PM (#253784) Journal
          At least as of now, no one is competent enough to turn war into a crime without killing people in the process.
  • (Score: 2) by frojack on Friday October 23 2015, @06:50AM

    by frojack (1554) on Friday October 23 2015, @06:50AM (#253517) Journal

    Actually, knowing this government, I doubt that a secret could have been kept for any significant length of time, and a move would have had to be made within a small number of months after locating Bin Laden, regardless of the source of the information.

    As for all the Revelations being scary, before you waste any time being scared, wait a few years till the real truth comes out, instead of rushing to believe some journalist looking for a scoop. It could end up being far worse than you think, or it could be like most conspiracy stories, nothing but hard to prove lies.

    --
    No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @07:23AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @07:23AM (#253521)

      Actually, knowing this government, I doubt that a secret could have been kept for any significant length of time, and a move would have had to be made within a small number of months after locating Bin Laden, regardless of the source of the information.

      One of the rumors was that the US had known his location for years, and the only reason they went after him was that they were worried that this knowledge was among the data that was sent to Wikileaks (yes, Wikileaks was active before the Snowden and Manning leaks).

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @08:21AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @08:21AM (#253530)

        Weren't public opinion polls for Obama on the way down at the time? And didn't this take place around the time that he would have been starting the campaign for re-election?

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @04:29PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @04:29PM (#253642)

          Weren't public opinion polls for Obama on the way down at the time? And didn't this take place around the time that he would have been starting the campaign for re-election?

          The big hole in the conspiracy theory you are trying to paint is that if this raid had gone wrong Obama's chances at being re-elected would have been absolutely nil. Just ask Jimmy Carter; he can tell you a thing or two about daring raids that go wrong and the political consequences.

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Friday October 23 2015, @09:22AM

    by Phoenix666 (552) on Friday October 23 2015, @09:22AM (#253548) Journal

    And then, suddenly, out comes the president of the US, relieved at having successfully killed a relatively defenceless old guy in his bedroom. It suddenly became obvious that all these "world leaders" are just grasping at straws, doing their best when they are actually overwhelmed, and they're just being carried by history like the rest of us. Even though their actions have severe consequences for everyone, they usually have no idea what those consequences are...

    I worked for an American President. This what you said is 100% true. It is why the absolutely most important part of the president's team is the press department, because controlling the narrative about what happens is critical. So when something happens, making sure it fits into the story you're trying to peddle is what they hyperventilate about. Actually doing something about the thing that happens, trying to solve problems and, you know, help people, is the furthest thing from their minds and their ability. Their concern is that they come out of it smelling like a rose and with more money and power. That is the heart of the saying you often hear, "Let no good crisis go to waste."

    TFA is about the breakdown of that ability in the age of the Internet. It's too easy now for people to get the real facts and form different narratives substantiated by those facts. And every time the official narrative is shown demonstrably to be a lie, the system loses more authority. One feels that a system cannot infinitely lose authority before it falls apart, to be replaced by something else.

    All of these revelations are scary, because they show just how chaotic history really is, but they actually make perfect sense. It's just that I would like not to believe them. And I honestly have no idea how to convince people in general that they can't let themselves be overwhelmed by the fear, since I myself don't like to think about these things.

    And this right here is now the last thing holding the cruft that is the trainwreck of the old system in place, because people don't want to know. Their fear of the unknown, their fear that their understanding of the world is an illusion based on a web of deliberate lies, keeps them cowed. But knowing that the system is broken and incapable and corrupt is not to say that it's impossible to solve problems or for human beings to work productively together. It is.

    I have been fortunate enough to work with teams that mesh, that eat show-stopping problems for breakfast and ask for seconds. Not often, just once or twice. But enough to know it's possible. Some others on SN may have had that experience, too. I also know what an immense difference it makes when just one person with desire and ability commits to making that difference. Soylent itself is a case in point. A handful of people have built the machinery that runs this place. Those who comment help build it, too, to be sure, but without those handful of people building the machinery there's nothing around which this community can coallesce. In practice it's exhausting for the handful, but also empowering because it does matter if they stop working. It does matter if they give up. And it does matter if the rest of us say thank you and give them the mental energy, the psychic resources they must have to keep going.

    I digress, but it is possible for small, committed groups of people to build something better than this trainwreck of a system, and that gives me hope. But the first step, that you zeroed in on, is to lose the fear.

    It is a shame you posted this anonymously, AC, because it is one of the most astute observations I've read in a while. Had you posted under a registered username I would pay extra attention to your future comments, because you have insight.

    --
    Washington DC delenda est.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @10:37AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 23 2015, @10:37AM (#253555)

      thank you.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by RamiK on Friday October 23 2015, @11:48AM

      by RamiK (1813) on Friday October 23 2015, @11:48AM (#253566)

      One feels that a system cannot infinitely lose authority before it falls apart, to be replaced by something else.

      Wrong. An office can be completely depleted from power until it's only an honorary position. The most extreme example is the king of England but the fall of Roman republic is filled with comities, civil \ military tribunals, magistrates and etc... shifting power from one class's leadership to the next by depleting a standing comity from authority while keeping that comity alive so it won't look like a revolution. The last such maneuver was the rise of the empire.

      In this day of age we privatize services to non-profits: We shift the first generation's power from executive to oversight. The second generation bureaucrats is then re-structured (to reflect their oversight duty instead of their executive powers) into a hierarchy so they only serve reports and have no means to charge complaints without the support of their managers. The third generation privatizes the oversight itself finally leaving the office as a rubber stamp for the politician to appoint an executive contractor and an oversight contractor.
      This is how governments all over the world do everything nowadays.

      --
      compiling...
    • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by zugedneb on Friday October 23 2015, @01:47PM

      by zugedneb (4556) on Friday October 23 2015, @01:47PM (#253591)

      Knowledge and will, bro, is not enough.
      Preaching to the choir is also not enough.

      You have to be a disgusting, disgusting person to achieve something.
      Like, as example the jews.
      Sure, many are educated and such, but partly the are standing not on the shoulders of giants but mountains of "claimed dead", and partly they own a lot of the media and produce content that you (me and many here) would not read even in prison.

      The disgusting is, bro, what is called "financed".
      And they are financed by those you would want to save, namely the innocent civilian, the human =)

      I digress, but it is possible for small, committed groups of people to build something better than this trainwreck of a system, and that gives me hope. But the first step, that you zeroed in on, is to lose the fear.

      Not that I disagree, but pull that sentence to your pregnant wife, or to your friend with 3 kids...

      U see, this is why I troll. Cuz u are idiots.
      The jews own the people, through the spiritually compatible merchandise they sell the people. The government is just some guys with money, who do what they can allow themselves.
      The people need not guys like me looking like a russian criminal, promising to fight to death for them.
      The people need not the government - the gamblers and wardogs on the "international arena". (wtf is that even?)
      The probably need not mad kings and shining paladins either.

      The people need, and choose, the sophisticated and disgusting jews, even if they become owned and pwnd by them.

      --
      old saying: "a troll is a window into the soul of humanity" + also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax
      • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by zugedneb on Friday October 23 2015, @02:10PM

        by zugedneb (4556) on Friday October 23 2015, @02:10PM (#253598)

        One of the "aha, wow" moments for me was when an ex swedish minister of state, Göran Persson, told how he did and felt, when he went to borrow money to keep the swedish welfare afloat, cuz taxes were not enought to cover for the feast.
        What is a government, when the banks (and jews, for sake of argument) ended up with the power and money?
        The government has only the power it gets through the taxes.
        If people pour and not enough tax and nobody gives or lends, they can sit the chamberpot made up by the country borders and wait for tourists to come and fuck small children...
        And when the people work and pull a country to its feet, they give it away then to the "government". Or corporations... Or whatever.

        There was/are a lot of people and media badmouthing the dude, the swedish minister, without even knowing how their fucking country works.
        People are shit.

        I am not s sophisticated, although educated as hell...
        Inside, I am a natural born military personal type of guy.
        But I say, fuck the people. Let the jews and banks own them, as they are incapable of caring for their country and government.
        Fucking tired of always relying on "special groups", to defeat corrupt government, build new government, watching the watcher, or what the fuck their are needed to do.

        The best moment in a film ever is when, in Battlestar Galactica, some bozo trying to force the wife of the chief (the engineer) to pull the trigger on an enemy, and the wife can't pull the trigger. AHAHAHAHA...

        I wish, all brutal people, who know blood and combat, would say "no more" and would just take their wives and daughters, priests and psychiatrist to the slaughter.
        "U pull the trigger, u coward, embedded, safe fucking worm of human being... No more special groups that take care of u. U fucking do it urself!1!!!11"

        but alas...
        what a stupid fucking rant...

        --
        old saying: "a troll is a window into the soul of humanity" + also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax
    • (Score: 2) by jdavidb on Friday October 23 2015, @05:57PM

      by jdavidb (5690) on Friday October 23 2015, @05:57PM (#253673) Homepage Journal

      Soylent itself is a case in point. A handful of people have built the machinery that runs this place. Those who comment help build it, too, to be sure, but without those handful of people building the machinery there's nothing around which this community can coallesce. In practice it's exhausting for the handful, but also empowering because it does matter if they stop working. It does matter if they give up. And it does matter if the rest of us say thank you and give them the mental energy, the psychic resources they must have to keep going.

      I'm way off topic, now, but if any of you guys are reading this - thanks!

      --
      ⓋⒶ☮✝🕊 Secession is the right of all sentient beings
    • (Score: 2) by Hyperturtle on Friday October 23 2015, @08:41PM

      by Hyperturtle (2824) on Friday October 23 2015, @08:41PM (#253788)

      I think that when the new system comes, he will still have a role. I wouldn't hold it against him (assuming he is a he) for remaining anonymous. You know we're on the right track when we find someone that has similar thoughts under a valid username. Maybe that person won't admit to being our AC in question, maybe not.

      There is nothing wrong with courage coming through after seeing how it is done, since only fools rush in. I too stand back and let the experts handle things, and then offer to help and do what I can. The hardest thing one can do is lead -- you have to be very good at not having nearly as high of a level of skills your wide team of specialists has. You have to be a leader, a skill few specialists have.

      This person could be a leader in training, in waiting, or just doesn't know it yet. Certainly one may want to express opinions unbecoming to a leader.

      If I tried to write anon now, I think people could likely identify me at this point, or may try to. So I log in when I can and try to prevent someone innocent for getting blamed from a post I might make AC because I didn't log in...

      When we hit 10,000 users, 100,000 users -- we'll have more like him, but I have no problems with anonymous people remaining anonymous. Some people do not want the recognition, and some of those are the best people I've worked with. They are so hard to reward, and the expression of gratitude like yours (and hopefully mine) might go farther than any moderation or karma score could provide.

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Thexalon on Friday October 23 2015, @02:09PM

    by Thexalon (636) on Friday October 23 2015, @02:09PM (#253596)

    Actually, none of that was what really jumped out at me.

    According to the official story, they captured OBL alive, then killed him and dumped him in the Indian Ocean. But that's a dumb move if your primary goal is fighting terrorism - if your goal is fighting terrorism, your next step is to lock him up and send in one of your best interrogators to learn about everything he was coordinating, who he was coordinating it with, and as much about their specific plans as possible. Whereas if you kill him immediately, you lose access to all the information he had about Al Qaida and its activities. So based on that, why kill him?

    But I don't think that leads to the conclusion that he's still alive secretly somewhere. Instead, it leads to the conclusion that he's dead not because of anything to do with terrorism but because of something that he knew that he wasn't supposed to know. That something probably had something to do with his relationship with the CIA that was established back in the 1980's. Indeed, it might have been what turned him from a CIA asset fighting the Russians into a terrorist fighting the US. I also don't think he's the only person from a faraway country that has been declared a terrorist leader for that very reason. And whatever it is, it's something the CIA definitely does not want the US public to know - my guess is past actions by CIA personnel that would land them at the International Criminal Court at the Hague if anybody had definitive evidence.

    --
    The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
  • (Score: 2) by Balderdash on Saturday October 24 2015, @02:59AM

    by Balderdash (693) on Saturday October 24 2015, @02:59AM (#253886)

    Bin Laden died in the winter of 2001 due to complications related to renal failure.

    --
    I browse at -1. Free and open discourse requires consideration and review of all attempts at participation.