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posted by n1 on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:00AM   Printer-friendly

France has declared a national state of emergency and has closed its borders after at least 40 people were killed in multiple shootings in Paris.

At least 15 people were killed near the Bataclan arts centre, where up to 60 people are being held hostage. Explosions and gunfire are reported.

Three people were killed in an attack near the Stade de France, with some reports suggesting a suicide blast.

Paris authorities have urged people to stay indoors.

Military personnel are being deployed across Paris.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/11/13/455943961/violence-reported-in-paris
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/13/world/paris-shooting/index.html

Update #1 [BBC updates]:

Scores of people have been killed in multiple gun and bomb attacks in Paris

At least 100 people are reported to have died inside the Bataclan concert hall in central Paris

Others died in attacks near the Stade de France, where France were playing Germany, and at restaurants

France has declared a national state of emergency and has closed its borders

Paris residents have been asked to stay indoors and military personnel are being deployed across the city

[...] Reuters. quoting an un-named official at Paris City Hall, says the current death toll in Paris is around 140.

Update #2:

According to the Paris prosecutor, of the four assailants who died during the sidge at the Bataclan, three committed suicide by detonating explosive vests. The prosecutor has warned that some of their accomplices may "still be on the loose".

[...] Here is what French president François Hollande told reporters outside the Bataclan concert hall just now: "To all those who have seen these awful things, I want to say we are going to lead a war which will be pitiless. Because when terrorists are capable of committing such atrocities they must be certain that they are facing a determined France, a united France, a France that is together and does not let itself be moved, even if today we express infinite sorrow."


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  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by mrsam on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:25AM

    by mrsam (5122) on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:25AM (#262902)

    That is, sadly, the inevitable outcome of EU's newly adopted open-borders policy. Honestly, who couldn't see this coming? Reports of small-scale riots of newly-settled "refugees" in small German towns have been coming across the news wire for the last week. I am only surprised that this kind of a terrorist attack was executed in France, rather than Germany which is accepting an overwhelming portion of these so-called "refugees".

    Just keep in mind that the current administration is working very hard to make it possible to have 100,000 of these "refugees" come over here, and settle in the fruited plain. And, you know what? I'd be shocked if they will now reconsider their plans. I fully expect the current administration to redouble their efforts to welcome these third-world savages with open arms. We have to demonstrate to the rest of the world how kind and compassionate we are, don't you understand?

    P.S. I wrote the above two paragraphs before searching the newswire again, and finding this report [investing.com]. I swear. Welcome to Obama's America.

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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by pe1rxq on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:35AM

    by pe1rxq (844) on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:35AM (#262912) Homepage

    Stop blaming the refugees! It makes you sound just as stupid as shouting 'they took our jobs'. There is not a shred of evidence linking this to refugees. Only your scared imagination running wild.
    Post like yours are revolting. You are blaming them for the kind of violence they are actually running away from.

    • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:43AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:43AM (#262918)

      The longer you keep dreaming, the rougher the wake-up call will be. Over 100 people died today. All of these deaths could have been avoided if the borders had been closed. It's pretty difficult to kill someone when you can't even get into the same country as them.

      >inb4 "but if the borders were closed the poor wefyewjees would have died instead!!"
      Boo hoo.

      • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:06AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:06AM (#262946)

        People that conspire to kill more than 100 people would definitely not cross a border if they weren't supposed to, right?

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:53AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:53AM (#262972)

          Not if those borders were protected by armed forces. Dead men cross no borders.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:57AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:57AM (#262975)

            And people willing to strap bombs to themselves would be too worried to take the risk.

            • (Score: 2, Insightful) by tftp on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:17AM

              by tftp (806) on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:17AM (#262983) Homepage

              And people willing to strap bombs to themselves would be too worried to take the risk.

              It's not very important what terrorists were or were not worried about if they are killed at the effectively guarded border. The point is that today a terrorist does not need to work hard to get into EU. In terms that are familiar to SN people, Europe switched off their firewall and allowed all kinds of packets through. Some (many?) of those packets are legitimate; but others are not. Voices are heard even today to reduce the security even further, as doing the opposite could be seen as undemocratic. Well, it's their country... and it's their democratic right to commit suicide as nations.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:24AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:24AM (#262986)

                Some (many?) of those packets are legitimate; but others are not.

                I thought that was a solved problem? [wikipedia.org]

                Maybe we should just ask every immigrant if they're a terrorist or not.

                • (Score: 1) by tftp on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:40AM

                  by tftp (806) on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:40AM (#262994) Homepage

                  Maybe we should just ask every immigrant if they're a terrorist or not.

                  The USA does that even today. The primary purpose of that question is to have a simple legal path to removal of a terrorist, without spending years in courts.

                  Don't know, though, if the politically correct, liberal Europe has forced itself to ask such a personal question. Reportedly, the immigrants are dissolving within the EU as soon as they get inside. It would be pretty hard to match the person that crossed the border to the person who committed this or that; not that it would be of high importance after the fact.

              • (Score: 2) by gman003 on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:47AM

                by gman003 (4155) on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:47AM (#262996)

                Closing the borders WOULD NOT WORK.

                First, consider just how large the border is. Even if you literally said "nobody can come into the EU from anywhere else", that's a massive border. How will you patrol it? Including the maritime borders, and the airspace? Sneaking twenty people into a building is easy, how are you going to protect a border like that? Remember, it doesn't take that many people to launch a terrorist attack.

                Second, consider all the countries you would "want" to allow people from. Americans, Canadians, obviously they're not all terrorists, right, so some of those will need to be let in. Gotta let some Chinese in, obviously, to keep the trade running. We'll probably need to let some Russians in, too. But wait - Russia has massive, poorly-secured borders. What's to stop a terrorist from sneaking into there, building a new identity, then moving into Europe?

                Third, consider who is already inside. Let's go ahead and (hypothetically) go full Nazi and ship every person of Arab ethnicity out. Hell, anyone brown. It's not like white people can ever be terrorists, right? No, I have no idea who Anders Breivik was, why do you ask? The IRA? Is that a beer?

                And let's not even get started on how you'd need to block all communications, too... might have someone convert over the Internet...

                • (Score: 1) by tftp on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:05AM

                  by tftp (806) on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:05AM (#263006) Homepage

                  It's a valid question. But what is the answer?

                  I can comment that USSR maintained a heavily fortified border around most of the country for what, 80 years? Perhaps there are people still alive who can become advisers on such matters. Technicalities can always be taken care of. This will close access to those who have no valid travel documents, and who had not been properly vetted. This will not stop a dedicated, well prepared terrorist with perfectly made documents. But this will stop thousands who cannot afford the passports and who will never be given visas. In other words, this will stop the soldiers. Guess who did the carnage in Paris? Not the lone mastermind; it was done by his disposable soldiers. The mastermind may be in another country already.

                  Arrivals that go through proper border crossings (airports) are not a concern as much. They all have passports with visas, and they are not carrying anything dangerous in their backpacks. But if you have an open border... here is your channel of delivery of 10,000 AKMs from Libyan depots direct into the EU. If ten or fifteen suiciders did what they did last night, what can ten thousand do? ISIS has fourty thousand, they are currently fighting for Syrian sands - but they can be moved from there on a moment's notice if need be; Syria is hardly a rich prize.

                  • (Score: 3, Funny) by gman003 on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:43AM

                    by gman003 (4155) on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:43AM (#263027)

                    Arrivals that go through proper border crossings (airports) are not a concern as much. They all have passports with visas, and they are not carrying anything dangerous in their backpacks.

                    I can't believe it, it's finally happened. Everyone kept warning you not to, but you did.

                    You actually forgot 9/11.

                    • (Score: 2) by kurenai.tsubasa on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:28AM

                      by kurenai.tsubasa (5227) on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:28AM (#263049) Journal

                      Damn it. I blow my last mod point before seeing this one.

                      This is /thread, folks. Mod to +∞, hit the fucking nail on the fucking head.

                    • (Score: 1) by tftp on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:29AM

                      by tftp (806) on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:29AM (#263050) Homepage

                      You actually forgot 9/11.

                      No. There was no defense against 9/11 at that time. There is a bit more today. Arrival of those Saudis into the USA was entirely legitimate, and nothing could have been done at that point to stop them. Even their activities on learning to fly were not illegal.

                      In their case, preventing them from coming would have caused more harm in form of self-isolation than it would have done good. The terrorists would simply wade across the river from Mexico. There is absolutely nothing that one can - or should - do to stop a young student or engineer if he is not known to be bad. The only advantage of restricting access to border crossings is in fact that it requires people with cleaner biography to get a visa. Those Saudis were not bums found in a back yard of a mosque. They were the best. There is always shortage of those. Among the 40,000 soldiers of ISIS in Syria you may find maybe a few who are of the same background and can be cleared to come to the USA.

                      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:20PM

                        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:20PM (#263194) Journal

                        "There was no defense against 9/11 at that time."

                        I strongly disagree. There were defenses, and we CHOSE not to defend ourselves.

                        "Even their activities on learning to fly were not illegal."

                        An activity need not be illegal to raise red flags. And, red flags were waved at the FBI, among other agencies tasked to track terrorists.

                        Worst of all, the United States had received intelligence that terrorists were thinking about flying airplanes into buildings. The "chatter" was out there, and we ignored it.

                        Bottom line, we were asleep at the wheel, and the Saudis took advantage of us.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:57AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:57AM (#263003)

                as doing the opposite could be seen as undemocratic

                Obligatory trading freedom for security quote. I'd be glad if a small number of deaths is not enough to scare an entire population into giving up their liberty.

                • (Score: 1) by tftp on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:10AM

                  by tftp (806) on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:10AM (#263010) Homepage

                  I'd be glad if a small number of deaths is not enough to scare an entire population into giving up their liberty.

                  Usually sacrifices are acceptable if a certain group trades losses within the group for some freedoms that are afforded to the members of the group. Note, however, that in the case of refugees (if those are in any way involved,) citizens of the EU are trading deaths among themselves for freedom of other people to freely come into Europe. Would you like to be killed, so that person A can be free to migrate into country B - where you have no relation to A or B?

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:29AM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:29AM (#263052)

                    If the people vote and decide to close their borders, then that is up to them. If they oppose their government doing this without their say, then I hope they succeed.

                    ~200 deaths is not something to ignore but there are over 66,000,000 people in France and the rights of all those people may be worth more than a couple hundred deaths.

                    • (Score: 1) by tftp on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:33AM

                      by tftp (806) on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:33AM (#263054) Homepage

                      ~200 deaths is not something to ignore but there are over 66,000,000 people in France and the rights of all those people may be worth more than a couple hundred deaths.

                      I am still uncertain how the rights of French citizens can be impacted by closing the borders to unvetted foreigners. I know of one right - the right for life - that would even improve.

                      • (Score: 2) by Anal Pumpernickel on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:12PM

                        by Anal Pumpernickel (776) on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:12PM (#263476)

                        It's pretty obvious what the government's response to this will be, and don't pretend that it isn't. They will use this as an excuse to ramp up mass surveillance and destroy people's liberties even more.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:49AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:49AM (#262927)

      A million refugees from war torn areas with a large majority of them being military age males.

      You were warned this would happen. No one listened to the warning.

      This is YOUR fault, and those of you who welcome potential terrorists with open arms. You stupid fucking idiots.

      Remember 0.1% of 1 million is a thousand, so even if only 0.1% are radicals (judging from demographic numbers coming from the countries in question this number is WAY higher) you let a thousand terrorists into your EU.

      This has nothing to do with "Dey took our jerbs" This has to do with not vetting the people you let into your country.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by gnuman on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:20AM

        by gnuman (5013) on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:20AM (#263078)

        Haven't you caught on that majority of the extremists are probably in Syria, and the refugees are fleeing because of these madman?

        Most of the terrorists in Europe are homegrown, born right in Europe (same for America and everywhere else). Wake up and smell reality - where do you think all the thousands of Europeans that went to fight for ISIL are?? They certainly are not refugees fleeing war torn countries - they are going TO Syria FROM Europe to learn and cause mayhem. Then they return back, for whatever reason, maybe to cause mayhem back home.

      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:22PM

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:22PM (#263195) Journal
    • (Score: 2, Informative) by mrsam on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:53AM

      by mrsam (5122) on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:53AM (#262930)

      I am not scared. Just sad, watching all the sheep volunteering themselves for the slaughterhouse.

      Maybe you should volunteer and demonstrate how compassionate and big-hearted you are, and volunteer to house, and feed, two or three of these poor refugees in your home, to show the rest of the world that these are not uncivilised, murderous barbarians, but just innocent, pure as wind-driven snow victims of persecution in their homeland, just wanting a better life for themselves.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by pe1rxq on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:00AM

        by pe1rxq (844) on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:00AM (#262938) Homepage

        I am sure not all of them are pure and innocent. But neither is the current population....

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:01AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:01AM (#262939)

        > I am not scared.

        Fear has more than one dimension. You are demonstrating one of the most pernicious kinds of fear - the generalized application of negative stereotypes to people you've never met based on the simple fact that they are different from you.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by gman003 on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:05AM

        by gman003 (4155) on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:05AM (#262945)

        I'm struggling to understand what your actual argument is here.

        It's pretty clear that the majority of the refugees are, in fact, refugees. Perhaps not all are fleeing war, but even those fleeing poverty are simply looking for a better life. If even one percent were terrorist sympathizers, there would have been far more attacks by now. Individual refugees are about as dangerous as, say, the homeless beggars on the street. In any case, that has little bearing on terrorism. You can argue about the economics of it, certainly, but it has nothing to do with these attacks.

        Do you think only Arab Muslims are terrorists, perhaps? I can easily refute that. Remember Breivik, the Norway attacks four years back? Pure Aryan heritage, and a vicious, murderous monster. Or perhaps I should remind you of the IRA - or does being white make them "freedom fighters" instead of "terrorists" in your eyes?

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by tangomargarine on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:18AM

          by tangomargarine (667) on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:18AM (#262955)

          If even one percent were terrorist sympathizers, there would have been far more attacks by now.

          Well considering it sounds like there were multiple simultaneous attacks, maybe they were waiting?

          9/11 on the scale it happened wouldn't have been possible if one cell had hijacked a single airliner before the main event.

          --
          "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
          • (Score: 5, Insightful) by isostatic on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:48AM

            by isostatic (365) on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:48AM (#262970) Journal

            There's been about a million refugees into Europe this year.

            Assuming that these 6 attacks were perpetrated by say a total of 20 people who all entered Europe as refugees, that would leave 999,980 refugees who weren't involved

            If you want a coordinated attack why not do it en mass. Use 2000 terrorists willing to kill themselves and start 500 attacks across the west, from shootings at shopping malls to driving now a car into a crowd on the pavement.

            The answer of course is there aren't 2000 people willing to do it. There aren't 200. The number of people willing to deliberately go out and mirder innocent men women and children is tiny compared with those that do it accidentally in cars. We don't ban cars, we certainly don't ban drivers.

            • (Score: 1) by tftp on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:07AM

              by tftp (806) on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:07AM (#262979) Homepage

              If you want a coordinated attack why not do it en mass.

              You are correct. Every general knows that you have to always attack, with all your forces, no matter what the circumstances are, until you have no soldiers left to fight tomorrow. </sarc>

              In this case, imagine that ISIS (or whoever stands behind - and there is someone, as the terror acts were organized) wants to terrorize the population. (Shocking, I know.) This is not achieved by one-time killing of many; one battle will be forgotten soon. But it can be achieved by killing of one citizen per day, as the losses will be fresh in people's memory.

              • (Score: 2) by isostatic on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:34AM

                by isostatic (365) on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:34AM (#262989) Journal

                So major attacks on the west

                2001
                2003
                2005
                2015

                Wake me up when you have evidence that there will be a continual campaign like the us funded bombing attacks on British children from the 70s til 90s.

                • (Score: 1) by tftp on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:51AM

                  by tftp (806) on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:51AM (#263000) Homepage

                  Ok. Note, however, that ISIS only now got able to emplace a large number of their soldiers within the EU, by masquerading them as refugees. The attack in January was done by Chérif and Saïd Kouachi, French citizens born in Paris, not by infiltrators from Libya or Syria or wherever. It's yet unknown who exactly performed the attack on 11/13/2015, and whether the new arrivals have anything to do with it.

                  • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:27PM

                    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:27PM (#263197) Journal

                    Disagree. There have been sporadic terror attacks over the past decade and more. More, there have been terror cells exposed throughout Europe in recent years. The terrorists have used European venues and resources to plan attacks around the world. Islamic terror groups are intertwined, of course. Former "Al Queda" groups have largely sworn allegiance to "ISIS" now. It isn't possible for you, me, or anyone to segregate one group's assets from another group's. The terrorists have infiltrated over a period of a couple decades, and they are taking action NOW, because France is involved in air raids in Iraq and Syria. Sleeper groups have been awakened.

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2iBZkODgxA [youtube.com]

                    • (Score: 2) by isostatic on Monday November 16 2015, @03:07AM

                      by isostatic (365) on Monday November 16 2015, @03:07AM (#263848) Journal

                      You imply some kind of command and control structure. I don't see that at all, and that's what makes fighting it so hard

                      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday November 16 2015, @03:31AM

                        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday November 16 2015, @03:31AM (#263853) Journal

                        Two things.

                        1. Somewhat like "sleeper cells" of the old Soviet days, a command structure isn't essential. Train highly motivated people, send them out into the world, and wait to see what they accomplish. You may additionally arrange for some signal to be sent openly, published in the personal ads, or on Facebook, or whatever.

                        2. Among the articles I've glanced at since I woke up this evening, was this: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/11/15/72-hours-before-paris-attacks-isis-linked-social-media-account-reveals-god-1219447939/?intcmp=trending [foxnews.com]

                        Regarding 2. - we have no idea how "hands on" the command structure was. Did the operatives merely communicate to the controllers that they had something planned, or did command plot the entire thing in detail? We may or may not learn more about that in days to come, but it is pretty certain that 8 or more random people didn't arrange this attack on the spur of the moment.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:56AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:56AM (#263002)

                  like the us funded bombing attacks on British children from the 70s til 90s.

                  Lol put down the pipe idjit.

                  • (Score: 3, Informative) by khallow on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:23AM

                    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:23AM (#263080) Journal

                    like the us funded bombing attacks on British children from the 70s til 90s.

                    Lol put down the pipe idjit.

                    No, this is a real thing [washingtonpost.com].

                    I am talking about the sympathy for the Irish Republican Army that persisted for decades in some Irish American communities and is only now fading away. Like British Muslim support for Muslim extremist terrorism, Irish American support for Irish terrorism came in many forms. There were Irish Americans who waved the Irish flag once a year on St. Patrick's Day and admired the IRA's cause but felt queasy about the methods. There were Irish Americans who collected money for Catholic charities in Northern Ireland without condoning the IRA at all. There were also Irish Americans who, while claiming to be "aiding the families of political prisoners," were in fact helping to arm IRA terrorists. Throughout the 1970s, until Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher asked President Ronald Reagan to stop them, they were the IRA's primary source of funding. And even after that they were widely tolerated.

                    I concede there is one major difference: The Irish terrorists were setting off their bombs across the ocean and not in New York or Boston, which somehow made the whole thing seem less real. But in Britain the explosions were real enough. In 1982 -- the year an IRA bomb killed eight people in Hyde Park -- four IRA men were arrested in New York after trying to buy surface-to-air missiles from an FBI agent. In 1984 -- the year the IRA tried to kill the whole British cabinet in Brighton -- an IRA plot to smuggle seven tons of explosives was foiled, an action that led to the arrests of several Americans. As recently as 1999, long after the IRA had declared its cease-fire, members of an IRA group connected to an American organization, the Irish Northern Aid Committee (Noraid), were arrested for gun-running in Florida.

                    The range of Americans who were unbothered by this sort of thing was surprisingly wide. Some were members of Congress, such as Republican Rep. Peter King of Long Island, who stayed with IRA supporters on visits to Northern Ireland and drank at a Belfast club called the Felons, whose members were all IRA ex-cons. Some were born in Ireland, such as Michael Flannery, Noraid's founder, who once said that "the more British soldiers sent home from Ulster in coffins, the better," and whose flattering obituary in 1995 described him as a man who "treated everyone he met with gentle respect." Some were Americans of Irish descent, such as Tom McBride, a businessman who is still the chairman of the Hartford chapter of Noraid, and who still refuses to condemn IRA terrorism. "I think they are protecting a segment of the population that needs to be protected," he told me over the phone.

                • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:50AM

                  by Phoenix666 (552) on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:50AM (#263031) Journal

                  I'm not clear on what you mean. Are you saying that ISIS (or whoever these terrorists are) are terrible because they've mounted four major attacks on the West since 20001 while the US has never funded any kind of terrible terror like that, or are you saying that ISIS is not that bad when you consider Irish Americans funded the IRA's bombing attacks on Britons for decades? Because they did.

                  --
                  Washington DC delenda est.
                  • (Score: 2) by Whoever on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:54PM

                    by Whoever (4524) on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:54PM (#263424) Journal

                    Don't forget that the US refused to extradite IRA terrorists to the UK.

                  • (Score: 2) by isostatic on Sunday November 15 2015, @02:12AM

                    by isostatic (365) on Sunday November 15 2015, @02:12AM (#263534) Journal

                    Well when U.S. funded terrorists blew up my tiny home town in 1993, when the blew up the neighbouring city in 1996, it certainly was terrible. The IRA commited 131 terrorist incidents in in mainland britian in the first half of the 90s -- thats about 2 per month - that's a sustained attack. Not half a dozen in a decade.

                    As at least one of the 7 attackers on Friday were French, I'm not sure what you're going to do, ban the French from visiting Paris?

                    Now it's entirely possible that the attacks (which didn't need the refugee crisis to occur) were timed to stir up racial hatred, and attempt to persuade the world there's a "Muslim vs everyone else" war on, when there isn't, any more than there was an Ireland vs Britain war in the 80s and 90s.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:19PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:19PM (#263396)

              Do you lock your doors at night? Very few people are criminals. Why stop them all from entering when so many are innocent?

              The same wisdom should be applied to your country. Some bad people get in and hundreds die. It does not matter if 99.99% of the people you let in are innocent, you are facilitating mass murder by letting that last .01% in.

              • (Score: 2) by Anal Pumpernickel on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:05PM

                by Anal Pumpernickel (776) on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:05PM (#263474)

                Do you lock your doors at night?

                Locking my door is a personal decision that affects myself and no one else.

                It does not matter if 99.99% of the people you let in are innocent, you are facilitating mass murder by letting that last .01% in.

                So be it. What you speak of now is national policy, which has a definite effect on countless people. What you seem to be advocating is collective punishment, which any truly free society should reject.

                It is amazing how easy it to bring people to the government's side. The suckers will just beg for more safety and gladly surrender their liberties whenever there is some threat or an attack of some sort. That shows how much freedom means to them.

        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by mrsam on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:26AM

          by mrsam (5122) on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:26AM (#262959)

          You will find anti-social, violent predators in every corner of society. But you will be hard-pressed to find any other unified front whose official scriptures prescribe death for apostasy, and heaven for martyrs who kill "infidels", or who even come close to the record of blood shed by violent Islamic terrorists.

          But my point, is to point out the utter, abject denial of reality, forced upon by political correctness, that results in full-blown, ignorant, head-in-a-pile-of-sand refusal to call a spade, a spade. Intentional, willful refusal to recognize the murderous, barbarian nature of all those prophets of the religion of peace.

          • (Score: 1, Offtopic) by gman003 on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:49AM

            by gman003 (4155) on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:49AM (#262971)

            If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known,
            gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other),
            do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them.
            You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people.
            Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
            Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

            Deuteronomy 13:6-11 [biblegateway.com], canon in Judaism and many forms of Christianity, assuming this is classed as "moral law" and not "ceremonial law".

            I suppose you were correct in that I was hard-pressed to find this evidence, because I am not intimately familiar with any of the major religious checks. But it still wasn't too hard to find.

            Oh, and "unified front"? Radical Muslims spend most of their time killing each other for not being the right flavor of Muslim. ISIS counts among their enemies all members of Shia Islam, whom they execute when found.

            • (Score: 2) by kurenai.tsubasa on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:55AM

              by kurenai.tsubasa (5227) on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:55AM (#263033) Journal

              My favorite translation can differ in interesting ways, even from NIV (and certainly from KJV), but not in this case.

              Deuteronomy 13:6–11 (MSG):

              And when your brother or son or daughter, or even your dear wife or lifelong friend, comes to you in secret and whispers, “Let’s go and worship some other gods” (gods that you know nothing about, neither you nor your ancestors, the gods of the peoples around you near and far, from one end of the Earth to the other), don’t go along with him; shut your ears. Don’t feel sorry for him and don’t make excuses for him. Kill him. That’s right, kill him. You throw the first stone. Take action at once and swiftly with everybody in the community getting in on it at the end. Stone him with stones so that he dies. He tried to turn you traitor against God, your God, the one who got you out of Egypt and the world of slavery.

              Every man, woman, and child in Israel will hear what’s been done and be in awe. No one will dare to do an evil thing like this again.

              I included the part about throwing the first stone because I find it highly contradictory to Jesus' Message (and the Buddah's Message).

              All of the Abrahamaic religions have this built in. That includes Baptists, Catholics, Southern Christian Identity, Reformed, Mormonism, etc. Wasn't it Saint Augustine [wikipedia.org] who advised against literal interpretations?

              Exodus 20:1–6 (MSG):

              God spoke all these words:

              I am God, your God,
                      who brought you out of the land of Egypt,
                      out of a life of slavery.

              No other gods, only me.

              No carved gods of any size, shape, or form of anything whatever, whether of things that fly or walk or swim. Don’t bow down to them and don’t serve them because I am God, your God, and I’m a most jealous God, punishing the children for any sins their parents pass on to them to the third, and yes, even to the fourth generation of those who hate me. But I’m unswervingly loyal to the thousands who love me and keep my commandments.

              Seems like a terrible and unjust god to me (certainly not a rex tremende majestatis, unless the “awful” part of most translations is the salient part), one who endorses genital mutilation, but hey.

              Observe how, through, how this comes out after 2,500 years of history. Most of the denominations of Christianity I mentioned overlook this part, just the same as they overlook the prohibition against bacon(++).

              But hey, maybe it was just a proscription against worshiping those Goa'uld bastards [wikia.com]. If that's the case, everybody should chillax, especially the jihadists, because SGC has everything under control!

        • (Score: 4, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:01AM

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:01AM (#263004) Journal

          As long as the Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country they will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone. In fact, they may be featured in articles and films, stereotyped for their colorful uniqueness:

          United States — Muslim 1.0%
          Australia — Muslim 1.5%
          Canada — Muslim 1.9%
          China — Muslim 1%-2%
          Italy — Muslim 1.5%
          Norway — Muslim 1.8%

          At 2% and 3% they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs:

          Denmark — Muslim 2%
          Germany — Muslim 3.7%
          United Kingdom — Muslim 2.7%
          Spain — Muslim 4%
          Thailand — Muslim 4.6%

          From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population.

          They will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves — along with threats for failure to comply. (United States ).

          France — Muslim 8%
          Philippines — Muslim 5%
          Sweden — Muslim 5%
          Switzerland — Muslim 4.3%
          The Netherlands — Muslim 5.5%
          Trinidad &Tobago — Muslim 5.8%

          At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islam is not to convert the world but to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

          When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions ( Paris –car-burnings) . Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats ( Amsterdam – Mohammed cartoons).

          Guyana — Muslim 10%
          India — Muslim 13.4%
          Israel — Muslim 16%
          Kenya — Muslim 10%
          Russia — Muslim 10-15%

          After reaching 20% expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings and church and synagogue burning:

          Ethiopia — Muslim 32.8%

          At 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare:

          Bosnia — Muslim 40%
          Chad — Muslim 53.1%
          Lebanon — Muslim 59.7%

          From 60% you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels:

          Albania — Muslim 70%
          Malaysia — Muslim 60.4%
          Qatar — Muslim 77.5%
          Sudan — Muslim 70%

          After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide:

          Bangladesh — Muslim 83%
          Egypt — Muslim 90%
          Gaza — Muslim 98.7%
          Indonesia — Muslim 86.1%
          Iran — Muslim 98%
          Iraq — Muslim 97%
          Jordan — Muslim 92%
          Morocco — Muslim 98.7%
          Pakistan — Muslim 97%
          Palestine — Muslim 99%
          Syria — Muslim 90%
          Tajikistan — Muslim 90%
          Turkey — Muslim 99.8%
          United Arab Emirates — Muslim 96%

          100% will usher in the peace of ‘Dar-es-Salaam’ — the Islamic House of Peace — there’s supposed to be peace because everybody is a Muslim:

          Afghanistan — Muslim 100%
          Saudi Arabia — Muslim 100%
          Somalia — Muslim 100%
          Yemen — Muslim 99.9%

          • (Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:41AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:41AM (#263088)

            The internet chain letter you cut-n-pasted that from is so well known as bullshit that snopes took it apart:

            http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=34302 [snopes.com]

            I'll summarize the very first criticism from snopes:

            > At 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare:
            > Bosnia — Muslim 40%

            Blaming the genocide of bosnian muslims [wikipedia.org] on themselves for being muslim is the height of intellectual dishonesty. Everything else claimed or implied in your unthinking regurgitation of evil is on the same level of quality.

            Fuck you runaway you fucking hitler wannabe. I had just started think that maybe you were a decent person, too bad you had to remind us all that you really do have a heart of darkness.

            • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:53AM

              by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:53AM (#263150) Journal

              I do have a heart. Those of you without hearts just repeat the mindless drivel fed to you by the MSM.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:47PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:47PM (#263286)

                > I do have a heart. Those of you without hearts just repeat the mindless drivel fed to you by the MSM.

                Yes, dear runaway, you go ahead and retreat into non sequitur. So comforting. Nice. Warm. Fuzzy.

                Never mind that you just posted a cut-n-paste internet chain letter lifted from a book published by one of the largest 'christian' media groups in the country.

                Don't think too deeply about any of that - your mindless drivel is of much higher quality. You have nothing to be ashamed of. No illogic at all. Just purity and wisdom. Something that only your tribe has because your tribe is the best tribe.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:35AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:35AM (#263162)

              You are intellectually dishonest. Besides that one thing most of the other comments while deriding the post, due nothing to refute the post.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:27PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:27PM (#263407)

              Muslims do commit genocide on other Muslims. Shiite and Sunni have been doing that for a very long time.

              Fuck you for your apologist stance. You are the same sort of person that did claim in 1940 that not all germans are bad so we should not go to war against them.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:01AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:01AM (#263091)

            Look! Runaway can do math! I am so impressed. Of course, the problem is that correlation is not causation. Go hide in your Bunker, Runaway.

    • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:56AM

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:56AM (#263001) Journal

      Refugee, immigrant, invader, doesn't matter what words you and I use to describe them. They are all middle eastern Muslims. Allahu akhbar, dude.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:44AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @03:44AM (#263029)

      It was christians that fled religious prosecution that came to the US and brought it with them (Salem witch trials et al.), these people flee from Islam and bring it with them.

    • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:15PM

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:15PM (#263193) Journal

      They brought the violence with them.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2iBZkODgxA [youtube.com]

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:11PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:11PM (#263455)

      Stop blaming the refugees! It makes you sound just as stupid as shouting 'they took our jobs'. There is not a shred of evidence linking this to refugees. Only your scared imagination running wild.

      Imagine... [reuters.com]

      • (Score: 2) by pe1rxq on Saturday November 14 2015, @11:16PM

        by pe1rxq (844) on Saturday November 14 2015, @11:16PM (#263491) Homepage

        Ok, I'll admit that is a shred of evidence.
        But at the time I wrote that comment that fact was not known yet and the guy I was replying to was talking out of his ass.
        By now some of the other attackers have been identified and turned out to be domestic.
        So blaming a million other refugees for this is still stupid.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 15 2015, @05:01PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 15 2015, @05:01PM (#263683)

      I completely agree, why is everyone blaming Syrian refugees? That is exactly what ISIS would want. Who the hell is going to be in their Califate if all of their downtrodden people can just get up and flee to Europe. I would not be surprised if their primary goal was to stem the flow of people they want to rule from coming to Europe.

  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Ethanol-fueled on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:37AM

    by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:37AM (#262914) Homepage

    Perhaps Western nations should quit dickin' around over in the Middle-East, then.

    This is blowback more than it is an invasion. Of course, having stricter border controls would most certainly help. Nationalist parties were already on the rise before this happened.

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by tftp on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:49AM

      by tftp (806) on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:49AM (#262928) Homepage

      This is blowback more than it is an invasion.

      It's hard to tell, as the history of Muslim conquests of Europe is extensive enough.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:20AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:20AM (#262985)

      But we need to spread Democracy®! Democracy® is the best thing since sliced bread and that's why we need to force it down the throat of every country that doesn't have Democracy®!

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @08:01AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @08:01AM (#263124)

        Registered Tirade Mark

  • (Score: 2) by gman003 on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:55AM

    by gman003 (4155) on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:55AM (#262934)

    What makes you think the terrorists snuck in as refugees? If I were a terrorist right now, I'd fly to a "civilized" country before continuing on to my target on a tourist or student visa - I imagine most of the intelligence services are overwhelmed trying to screen the tens of thousands of refugees, but you'd have a lot less privacy and ability to smuggle equipment as a faux-refugee.

  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:40AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @02:40AM (#262993)

    Are people still following Trump and the other GOP candidates telling us that Mexican immigrants are the problem?

    Latin American countries are Roman Catholic, speak a European language, and baseball is very popular. It's our back yard. The USA should be admitting MORE Latin immigrants, not less. For economic and national security reasons.

    And yes, this is directly relevant to the Paris story.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:20PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:20PM (#263399)

      It's the open border that's the problem, it's not just Mexicans coming across the border. Mexico is a problem because they don't give a rats ass who travels up and into the U.S. from anywhere. Close the Mexican/US border and the country will at least have a fighting chance against terrorism, leave it the way it is and we're fucked. It's probably already too late, they're probably here already. All you bleeding heart limp wristed politically correct dorks are the reason we're screwed.

  • (Score: 2) by Zz9zZ on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:34AM

    by Zz9zZ (1348) on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:34AM (#263141)

    So we should be cynical scrooge-like people just because there is a chance some people will screw us over? How about history? Do you realize that the Western nations have interfered with foreign politics, promoted the murder of hundreds of thousands of people, arming groups for political gain, destabilizing legitimate governments for economic gains?

    We are reaping what we have sown, and the PROPER response would be to show some responsibility. However it is STILL more profitable to further destroy these foreign countries and then try to appear magnanimous by "fixing" the infrastructure we blew up.... At the tax payer's expense.

    It blows my mind how conservatives (I presume as much by your "Obama's america" statement) can be so blind. So easily distracted from reality.

    PS: I do not like Obama, he has proven himself another corrupt politician who sells his ideals for political gain.

    This video sums up my reaction to the reality of our world (I'm Ted for this example) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfbUkRvcNiI [youtube.com]

    --
    ~Tilting at windmills~
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:49AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:49AM (#263166)

      Maybe we could spend the money helping them fix their own fucking country instead of taking the chance they wont fuck up ours.

  • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:14PM

    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @12:14PM (#263192) Journal
  • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Sunday November 15 2015, @04:10AM

    by Reziac (2489) on Sunday November 15 2015, @04:10AM (#263556) Homepage
    --
    And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.