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posted by n1 on Saturday November 14 2015, @01:00AM   Printer-friendly

France has declared a national state of emergency and has closed its borders after at least 40 people were killed in multiple shootings in Paris.

At least 15 people were killed near the Bataclan arts centre, where up to 60 people are being held hostage. Explosions and gunfire are reported.

Three people were killed in an attack near the Stade de France, with some reports suggesting a suicide blast.

Paris authorities have urged people to stay indoors.

Military personnel are being deployed across Paris.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/11/13/455943961/violence-reported-in-paris
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/13/world/paris-shooting/index.html

Update #1 [BBC updates]:

Scores of people have been killed in multiple gun and bomb attacks in Paris

At least 100 people are reported to have died inside the Bataclan concert hall in central Paris

Others died in attacks near the Stade de France, where France were playing Germany, and at restaurants

France has declared a national state of emergency and has closed its borders

Paris residents have been asked to stay indoors and military personnel are being deployed across the city

[...] Reuters. quoting an un-named official at Paris City Hall, says the current death toll in Paris is around 140.

Update #2:

According to the Paris prosecutor, of the four assailants who died during the sidge at the Bataclan, three committed suicide by detonating explosive vests. The prosecutor has warned that some of their accomplices may "still be on the loose".

[...] Here is what French president François Hollande told reporters outside the Bataclan concert hall just now: "To all those who have seen these awful things, I want to say we are going to lead a war which will be pitiless. Because when terrorists are capable of committing such atrocities they must be certain that they are facing a determined France, a united France, a France that is together and does not let itself be moved, even if today we express infinite sorrow."


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  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Zz9zZ on Saturday November 14 2015, @08:56AM

    by Zz9zZ (1348) on Saturday November 14 2015, @08:56AM (#263134)

    While there are some definite tensions, much of that has been the result of political interference. This is not JUST some religious disagreement, it is about repeated wrongs on both sides. Playing the "us vs. them" card is short sighted and will result in more death. It seems almost prophetical that one religion would have a "prophet" urging us to turn the other cheek, while the other has a "prophet" urging to war. It's like this collision has been fated to happen for 2000 years. You know what they say, learn history or be doomed to repeat it. I think the people back when weren't so dumb, and could see what was happening and where it would lead. We need to drop the vengeance and start working things out. There will be bumps, there will be bruises, but turn the other cheek and persevere. From a generational perspective eventually the children will recognize the bullshit and we can continue on as humanity, without the divisive need to fight over who breaks which end of the egg first.

    I've met many a muslim who was a fine example of human, and many a christian I'm proud to call friend. If you're stuck in the tribal mentality, then please don't venture beyond a few miles and stay off the internet where your small minded concerns can affect a disproportionate number of people.

    As for the tragedies of our age I have no answer, except it is the by-product of this divisive bullshit. Personally I sense a greater threat from the war mongers, trying to provoke the tribal mentality for their own gain.

    --
    ~Tilting at windmills~
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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:49AM

    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:49AM (#263148) Journal

    Ahhhhh. So, you see Islam as just a religion. Some of us don't. Islam is a political system, as well as a theology, all wrapped up into one. Islam is what Catholicism was during the Holy Roman Empire. To Islam, Erdogan and Turkey are apostate, and must be destroyed. To Islam, Syria and Assad are apostate. Iraq and Saddam were apostate, and now Syria and it's present government are apostate.

    And, all western governments are apostate as well.

    You, and people who think like you, should study Islam to know it better.

    I, and people who think like me should also study Islam, so that we can better express those things we know.

    Islam does NOT WANT TO COEXIST WITH ANYONE OR ANYTHING except Islam. If you understand Islam, then you will also understand how foolish that view of coexistence is.

    I can't say that Islam is any better or any worse than any other political system, but I can definitely say that Islam is incompatible with any other political system.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Zz9zZ on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:04AM

      by Zz9zZ (1348) on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:04AM (#263154)

      Sorry, but I'm not as clueless as you think I am. I fully understand that there are extremists on both sides. I have heard my fill of fear based speculation, and being a mostly rational person I have recognized that tourists around the world have not been systematically murdered upon entering a muslim dominated country. I have met quite a few co-existent muslims. The ones you refer to are EXTREMISTS, much like the christian extremists that want all gays, unmarried couples, and non-believers to BURN IN HELL. There are horrible quotes in every "sacred text", but by and large most people toss out the insanity and stick to the useful / helpful bits.

      Christianity is the same political system, being utilized in elections across the board. Truly, the only real difference between the two seems to be that Christianity clings to the "turn the other cheek" propaganda, while Islamists cling to the "kill the infidel" propaganda. Neither holds true. Many Christians advocate murder, as do Islamists. However, the majority of BOTH sides just want to get along and have no agenda for murder. Simple stats, easily corroborated by the LACK of daily news stories regarding religious murder across the world.

      I'm sure you will point out that more death has occurred in the name of Islam, but to counterpoint I will say that Western culture has simply hidden the religious fervor behind statehood and the same atrocities have been enacted with a mix of economic, political, and religious backing. In fact, Western culture has been responsible for MUCH more death. The "collateral" damage alone over the last decade is orders of magnitude greater than the tragedy unfolding in France, yet it gets swept away under the guise of "war" instead of "terrorism".

      --
      ~Tilting at windmills~
      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:14AM

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:14AM (#263159) Journal

        I didn't mean to imply that you are clueless - your posts have been intelligent. But, an intelligent person can be misguided, and even deluded. My suggestion that you and I BOTH try to understand Islam better wasn't the stab that you seem to take it for.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:25PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @04:25PM (#263301)

      > Islam does NOT WANT TO COEXIST WITH ANYONE OR ANYTHING except Islam.

      There is no compulsion in religion [wikipedia.org]
      -- Quran 2:256

      Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject it"
      -- Quran 18:29

      And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers?
      -- Quran 10:99

      For you is your religion, and for me is my religion.
      -- Quran 109:6

      Therefore do remind, for you are only a reminder. You are not a watcher over them;
      -- Quran 88:21

      He said, "O my people have you considered: if I should be upon clear evidence from my Lord while He has given me mercy from Himself but it has been made unapparent to you, should we force it upon you while you are averse to it?
      -- Quran 11:28

      None of those quotes are cherry-picked to leave out contradicting context, it is a universal principle in the quran from all time periods in the book with many more examples beyond just those citations. That is unlike the quotes extremists like you typically use to justify your claims about islam being inherently incompatible with anybody else.

      • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:08PM

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:08PM (#263321) Journal

        Uh-huh. And, Islam is the people, not the book. Just as Christianity is the people, not the book. It has been pointed out repeatedly in this discussion that people of all faiths can find something in their book to justify the hatred.

        Islam, today, is a virulent disease, spreading around the world, and destroying anything and everything that stands in it's way.

        Christianity seemed to be a very similar disease at one point in time. Today, it is far less virulent. Today, Islam is a danger to you, to me, to every man and woman in the world. That includes innocent young fools attending a concert.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:18PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:18PM (#263337)

          > Uh-huh. And, Islam is the people, not the book.

          By that logic, islam is not a threat all. Since 99.999% have never hurt anyone.

          Go ahead make up some new metric to justify your bullshit. It is any port in a storm with guys like you anyway.

          • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:25PM

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:25PM (#263341) Journal

            No new metric needed. Watch, listen, and learn.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry3NzkAOo3s [youtube.com]

            I'm not sure how "smart" Brigitte is, but she does have insight and wisdom going for her.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:43PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @05:43PM (#263352)

              Yay, yet another gamergater citing a random obscure youtube video of some bigot because they are incapable of articulating, or even having, their own beliefs.

              So to summarize:

              Islam is incompatible with everybody
              o Except for what the Quran says
              o Except for what 99.999% of muslims actually do

              No, instead a religion of a billion people is defined by the handful of extremists. That makes you a neo-nazi white nationalist since however peaceful you are, those guys define you.

              • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:09PM

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @06:09PM (#263364) Journal
                • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:14PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:14PM (#263394)

                  > The facts won't be changed, of course, just because you refuse to believe them.

                  Ditto.

                  The facts remain that 99.999% of muslims haven't hurt anyone. Tthat you can find instances of some muslims hurting people doesn't change that fact. Just like I can find plenty of cases of white nationalists hurting people in the US that doesn't say anything meaningful about white americans.

                  > This last one makes no mention of Muslims or of Islam - but I suspect that Muslims are responsible.

                  Of course you suspect that. Do you even hear yourself?

                  • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:26PM

                    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:26PM (#263406) Journal

                    And, where did you pull that 99.9% figure from? Your ass, of course. BTW - the "innocents" are not as innocent as you would like to believe. People are sending various kinds of support to the terrorists. Some of the terror organizations are awash in cash. Imams around the world are telling their followers that they should send donations to this or that terror group. That increases the number of terrorists by an order of magnitude, at leas.

                    And, when you get down to it, you still haven't explained how Islam and Sharia law are compatible with any other religion, government, or justice system in the world. Fact is, Islam is INCOMPATIBLE with any other civilization or culture in existence today.

                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:49PM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @07:49PM (#263421)

                      > And, where did you pull that 99.9% figure from?

                      It is a figure of speech. You are welcome, encouraged, in fact demanded to prove otherwise. If that's not an accurate representation then lets see you come up with a number that does meet your high standard of accuracy. Otherwise quit running your mouth.

                      > you still haven't explained how Islam and Sharia law are compatible with any other religion,

                      Really? Those lines of scripture weren't enough for you?

                      Oh I get it, you are just running in circles. The religion is compatible, except what the scriptures says, oh the people are incompatible except what the people actually do, oh the minority is incompatible because the minority defines the majorty, oh the religion is incompatible execpt what the scriptures say....

                      • (Score: 3, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @08:16PM

                        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @08:16PM (#263432) Journal

                        Circles? Yeah, maybe. Once again, the religion and political structure are composed of PEOPLE. We have our own documents, which include the constitution of the United States. Our elected officials claim to support and/or represent that document, but so many of those officials desecrate that document with every breath they take. Bush and Cheney for example.

                        You want a quote on the number of incompatible Muslims? Take your pick -

                        http://www.jihadwatch.org/2004/08/muslim-american-activist-fifty-percent-of-muslims-worldwide-support-extremists [jihadwatch.org]

                        http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/opinion-polls.htm [thereligionofpeace.com]

                        The site most agreeable to your claim says that 7 percent of Muslims support extremists:
                        https://encounteringislam.org/misconceptions [encounteringislam.org]

                        Then again, maybe the results vary with how the question is posed:
                        http://www.westernjournalism.com/shocking-new-study-reveals-just-how-many-muslims-support-isis-and-its-frightening/ [westernjournalism.com]

                        And, at the end of the day, logic and rationalism plays little if any role in the debate. Islam plays on poeple's fears, superstitions, and lack of education. Much of Islam denies education to women, and restricts the education of men, for a reason. The uneducated and ignorant are much more malleable than educated and sophisticated people. The Catholic church knew that, and capitalized on it for hundreds of years.

                        Islam is incompatible with English Common Law, Napoleonic Law, the Code of Hammurabi, Roman or Greek law - every legal system known to the western world. Islam is incompatible with every form of government that the western world has ever experimented with. Incompatible. One has to choose to be blind to fail to understand that.

                        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:33PM

                          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:33PM (#263459)

                          > Circles? Yeah, maybe.

                          No, definitely. I can't believe you wrote that and still went on to do it.

                          > You want a quote on the number of incompatible Muslims?

                          Nice pivot from harming someone to "support for extremism"

                          First off, numbers for actually harming someone - murder rate in the US 5 per 100,000, in Indonesia the largest muslim country 1 per 100,000. Turks, Egyptans, Malayasians 2-4 per 100,000. Catholic Brazil 15+ per 100,000, Catholic Venezuela 50+ per 100,000.

                          1 per 100,000 that works out to 99.998%
                          http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/15/no-islam-isn-t-inherently-violent-and-the-math-proves-it.html [thedailybeast.com]

                          Now to address your pivot, what you left out are comparisons.

                          Bombing and other attacks intentionally aimed at civilians:
                          Americans: 46% never justified
                          5 largest muslim countries: 74-86% never justified
                          http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0223/p09s01-coop.html [csmonitor.com]

                          When is it justified for individuals or small groups to target and kill civilans
                          Israel: 73% never justified
                          Palestine: 84% never justified
                          http://media.gallup.com/poll/graphs/MideastViolence010808Graph4.gif [gallup.com]

                          When is it justified for the military to target and kill civilians:
                          American Muslims: 78% never, 21% sometimes
                          American Protestants: 38% never, 58% sometimes

                          When is it justified for small groups to target and kill civlians?
                          American Muslims: 89% never, 11% sometimes
                          American Protestants: 71% never, 26% sometimes
                          http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/08/a-fascinating-look-at-the-political-views-of-muslim-americans/242975/ [theatlantic.com]

                          So even by your very own criteria, islam is more compatible than you are. Time for you to save the world and convert.

                          > And, at the end of the day, logic and rationalism plays little if any role in the debate.

                          you know yourself so well.

                          > Islam is incompatible...

                          blah blah blah more proof by assertion. All that is you wishing as hard as you can for something that isn't true. Because if you are wrong you'd have to face some harsh realities about yourself.

                          • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:43PM

                            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday November 14 2015, @09:43PM (#263465) Journal

                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deera_Square [wikipedia.org]

                            The worst excesses of the Christian religion, from all of history, distilled, and carried out on a weekly basis. All the worst crimes of Judaism, ditto. Plus, perhaps, all of the worst of Hinduism. Sanctimonious and fearful superstitious fools, murdering people by the scores and the hundreds, to protect their false beliefs in some crazy moon god. And, they will kill every man, woman, and child on earth to protect their belief.

                            It is incompatible with any other way of life.

                            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:23PM

                              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:23PM (#263480)

                              Lol. You are such a cliche. "Moon god" lololol.

                              Yeah public executions. What other country executes people? Oh yeah.

                              You could not have made a stronger capitulation as to the emptiness of your arguments if you had just stood up like a man said you were wrong.

                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:26PM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 14 2015, @10:26PM (#263482)

                      Well, 99.999, if you have 1 billion people who are muslim, that would mean 999,990,000 are non-violent normal people going about their lives, like you do. 10,000 are violent extremists.
                      I doubt there are that many violent [muslim] extremists actually. Like all those ISIS/ISIL people, they don't really seem to have any interest in islam, and more seem like those warlords or child soldier armies that run around in africa.

                      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday November 15 2015, @05:03AM

                        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday November 15 2015, @05:03AM (#263562) Journal

                        If that be true - then why has Islam not crushed those war lords for defaming the real Islam? And, where do those dirt poor war lords get the weapons used to torture, rape and kill their fellow Africans? I suggest that the rest of Islam is quite happy to see those apostates punishing the infidels. That whole "enemy of mine enemy" thing, with Chrisians, Hindus, animists, and the worshippers of other gods being the greater enemy.

            • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Sunday November 15 2015, @03:34AM

              by Reziac (2489) on Sunday November 15 2015, @03:34AM (#263551) Homepage

              And why are the ~80% who are peaceful people not doing something to restrain the ~20% who are not?

              --
              And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
        • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Sunday November 15 2015, @03:26AM

          by Reziac (2489) on Sunday November 15 2015, @03:26AM (#263547) Homepage

          All religions go through an early stage where they coerce membership and kill off the competition. All other major religions have outgrown this and learned to get along in a world where they're not the sole option. But Islam never outgrew its coercive stage, and seems to be built to ensure that it never will.

          --
          And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
          • (Score: 2) by Zz9zZ on Sunday November 15 2015, @08:07PM

            by Zz9zZ (1348) on Sunday November 15 2015, @08:07PM (#263743)

            It is going through this right now. Muslims are being murdered by other Muslims MUCH more than any other group.

            Also, I would like to point out that no religion has fully outgrown this. There are radical members in every group. Christianity, Judaism, hell even Buddhism!! Muslims have the stage right now for at least a few reasons: their countries have been messed with by almost all foreign powers so they have a lot of animosity especially towards the "West", and they are the largest religious group in the world so by default they have more of an impact.

            --
            ~Tilting at windmills~
            • (Score: 2) by Reziac on Sunday November 15 2015, @08:31PM

              by Reziac (2489) on Sunday November 15 2015, @08:31PM (#263751) Homepage

              Being messed with in the present doesn't explain over a thousand years of Muslims behaving in more or less the same way.

              --
              And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
              • (Score: 2) by Zz9zZ on Monday November 16 2015, @09:42PM

                by Zz9zZ (1348) on Monday November 16 2015, @09:42PM (#264115)

                The Roman Empire, the Crusades, etc.

                Long running feud that has mostly occurred in the Middle East. For a while they were able to take over some of Europe. "Repeat after me, stereotypes are bad!" While they are sometimes statistically valid over a population, applying them in every situation with a group of people is 100% going to result in problems.

                You claim they all want to kill us, so the solution is something something all Muslims something something. Doesn't much matter what you choose, its not the right course. Welcoming arms for all? Silly idea, some will be extremists and use that chance to hurt you. Violence and segregation for all? Silly idea, some are great people who will become bitter at being treated unfairly.

                ENDGAME: The world isn't black and white, and it takes courage to try and approach each and every situation with an open mind. That doesn't mean acceptance, that means being open to the idea that each person could be good or bad and to try and act accordingly.

                --
                ~Tilting at windmills~