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"The abuse of the system is real, and media reports are validating what we have argued against for years, including the fact that Americans are training their replacements."
(Grassley-Durbin Bill press statement, Nov 11)
There has been much ado about the H1-B and L1 visa programs for foreign workers, with some in favor, and some against. What is pretty clear though, is that abuses do happen.
Now Senators Chuck Grassley (R-IA) and Richard Durbin (D-IL) have introduced legislation to try and curb some of these abuses. Among other things, their bill proposes to prohibit companies with more than 50 employees of hiring H1-B employees if the company already employs more than 50 percent of H1-B and L1 visa holders, and to establish a wage floor for L1 workers.
Working conditions of similarly employed American workers may not be adversely affected by the hiring of the H-1B worker, including H-1B workers who have been placed by another employer at the American worker's worksite. In addition, it explicitly prohibits the replacement of American workers by H-1B or L-1 visa holders.
Full text of the bill here (pdf), supporting statement by IEEE USA here.
Given election times and all, what chance do you think this bill has to make it into legislation?
(Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Wednesday November 25 2015, @01:19PM
I don't know about this. H1B abuse is a problem, but is this a good response? This strikes me as an anti-foreigner idea that has been provided an opportune moment thanks to the terrorist attacks in Paris. It is also posturing. Looks okay on the surface, but doesn't address the underlying issues.
This is akin to outlawing marijuana. People who want or need marijuana are driven underground. Similarly, employers who are determined to hire cheap, exploitable foreigners will still find a way. They may threaten to move their businesses offshore. What's much better is for employers to not be so hot to hire foreigners. How do we assure that? What about enforcing existing labor laws, for starters? Employers in the US very nearly have carte blanc now. Part of the attraction to hiring foreigners is that in practice they don't have the same protections citizens do. The bit about the foreign workers having to leave the country within 2 weeks if they lose their jobs gives employers tremendous leverage. No citizen can compete in that race to the bottom. This is ten times worse for an illegal. If the employer cheats them of pay, what can foreign workers do about it? Turn to the American public for support? Not likely!
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 25 2015, @02:03PM
>employers who are determined to hire cheap, exploitable foreigners will still find a way.
> What about enforcing existing labor laws, for starters?
Doesn't have exactly the same problem?
Myself, I'd like H1B visas to be mandatory fast-track for green cards. None of this waiting 7+ years. Green card in 18 months max. That way we encourage brain-drain into the US and the potential to exploit them limited, especially for the cases where they bring them in and train them up and then send them home to do the work overseas - which is way more common than you'd expect from the rhetoric. Once they've got a green card they'd be much less likely to WANT to go back.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 25 2015, @02:48PM
Brain drain does not always benefit us. Making other places shittier because we took all their doctors to be our nurses is not really a good idea, especially if the places we took the doctors from have say an ebola outbreak.
And brain drain, regardless of how it is done, will always depress local wages in the long run. The depression may be less than if it was under current regime, but it will still happen.
Still the real problem is we are well past the point where you can grow the economy by increasing population via immigration. That was a stop-gap measure to keep the last regiment (one that depended on exponential local population growth) going for a decade or two.
All those old economic models are dated and useless. As is the idea that you can invite all the smart people into a small place, make them rub elbows together and here come an economic boom out of no-where. It is just wishful thinking. It's akin to opening up another casino to increase revenue from gambling. It is short-sighted and totally useless.
Only thing you will get out of that is totally disruptive technologies, that while creating a short-term localized boom, will likely eviscerate entire industries causing multitudes of job losses.
Maybe I'm just a madman on a morning rant, but whatever. I still got mine and I guess I shouldn't care, but seeing other people do shit entirely wrong just pisses me off :)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 25 2015, @02:55PM
We need population growth for another reason - to counter the growing economic force of China and India, which is ultimately driven by their massive populations. Unlike those two, we have room for more people.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Wednesday November 25 2015, @05:55PM
> we have room for more people.
Sure, but the most attractive quarter of the USA is the one where there's already not enough water under the current usage patterns.
There's lots of room in Detroit people! Cheap! This way! Free blizzards for the first 200000 settlers!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 27 2015, @06:23AM
> Sure, but the most attractive quarter of the USA is the one where there's already not enough water under the current usage patterns.
That's entirely due to agricultural water consumption, which is responsible for at least 40% of the water usage in the state, urban usage is only about 11%.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 25 2015, @03:08PM
And brain drain, regardless of how it is done, will always depress local wages in the long run. The depression may be less than if it was under current regime, but it will still happen.
There is literally no evidence to back that up. The evidence that actually exists shows that immigration of high-skilled people increases wages for everybody because its not a zero-sum game. More smart and skilled people creates more growth, that's why places like SF, Boston, NYC have high wages and high concentrations of skilled workers while places with low concentrations of skilled workers have lower wages for the same jobs.
The only group that is hurt by immigration are low-skilled workers (high-school education at best) who are hurt by immigration of similarly skilled people. They tend to suffer a small wage depression because they can't benefit - they can't start new businesses themselves. But even low-skilled workers benefit from immigration of high-skilled workers because those new people hire people to do landscaping, build houses, babysit their kids, etc.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday November 25 2015, @11:12PM
Brain drain does not always benefit us. Making other places shittier because we took all their doctors to be our nurses is not really a good idea, especially if the places we took the doctors from have say an ebola outbreak.
Ok, how much of a problem is that really? Plus, they'll send money back for their relatives.
And brain drain, regardless of how it is done, will always depress local wages in the long run. The depression may be less than if it was under current regime, but it will still happen.
Unless it results in higher employment overall. For example, suppose that the New World had been left alone. How many high tech societies would they have now? There would be some advanced spots in central America and the western coast of South America, but probably they would probably be more at the Medieval era rather than today's cutting edge. I don't see the high tech jobs in the New World without the immigration that brought in the best, brightest, and most ambitious over the past few centuries.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 25 2015, @02:04PM
It's very easy to sound erudite to criticize somebody else's posting without actually contributing. (Note that I apply this both to myself in responding to you as well as you responding to the bill.) However that rarely actually gets us anywhere.
I don't fully agree with all your analogies, but I do think you have at least some point. Some of the ideas in the bill seem half-baked or not thought through (such as the 50% maximum H1B employment... it sounds intuitive but also sounds like it will have very unintended secondary effects). However some of them on the surface seem reasonable to me (such as the salary floor).
In my opinion, though, more important than the actual implementation at this point is the recognition from politicians that the current system isn't working and is being abused. This is especially good considering how much lobbying money is out there to increase H1Bs. Even if the actual solution they are proposing is imperfect, I think they should be commended on even floating this idea. It seems like at least a step in the right direction.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 25 2015, @04:02PM
GP was criticizing the bill, not TFS/TFA which reported on the bill. So that should be exempt from the "whining w/o contributing" charge. I agree that the bill does not sound especially well thought out, it focuses on current statistics but doesn't address legitimate issues, like the business about having to train replacement workers in order to collect severance.
(Score: 1) by PocketSizeSUn on Wednesday November 25 2015, @04:14PM
50% H1-B is targeting *specifically* the massive H1-B contract houses like TATA, WIPRO, INFOSYS and dozens more that hoard a huge percentage of the H1-B visas available and are notorious for gaming the system (understating titles, paying horribly low wages, and finally providing mostly useless bodies for seats).
Large companies and good employers simply don't have a majority of their workforce on H1-B / L1 which is why, for example, the Google's and Microsoft's direct H1-B hires do get comparable to normal (US Citizen/Green Card) wage.
Heck I'd even be in favor of the big Indian consulting firms being banned from holding H1-B / L1 and B-series visas given their on-going abuses. Just removing those jokers and the whole FWD.us crowd has access to more H1-B visas than they can use.
(Score: 2) by davester666 on Wednesday November 25 2015, @08:09PM
This is more like passing laws outlawing marijuana, but not having the DEA.
Congress can pass all the laws it wants, when there is nobody willing and able to actually enforce the laws, it makes no difference.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 26 2015, @08:09AM
" Similarly, employers who are determined to hire cheap, exploitable foreigners will still find a way. "
And what happens when those employers are discovered, ratted out, and brought to trial for having illegal, cheap, exploitable foreigners? I don't know exactly but it'll be a lot less beneficial to them than having the government's blessing to have those same cheap exploitable foreigners. So yes, I think it is a good idea to curb the abuses. I think Americans should be thinking of themselves before worrying about being anti-foreigner. If there are jobs, then let the citizens fill them before you drag people from other countries just to boost your own unemployment rates among the people that actually call the country home.