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posted by cmn32480 on Friday December 04 2015, @11:33PM   Printer-friendly
from the they-will-just-have-to-hubble-along dept.

From Nature.com:

Hawaii's supreme court has ruled that the construction permit for the Thirty Meter Telescope (TMT) on top of the mountain Mauna Kea is invalid. The 2 December decision is a major blow to the international consortium backing the US$1.5-billion telescope, and a win for the Native Hawaiians who have protested against its construction on what they regard as a sacred summit.

And the top reddit comment on the article, which I found neatly summed up the situation.

I spent time in Hawaii and talked to locals that were born and raised there about this issue. Its polarizing.

People against it brought up the need for spirituality and respect for the Hawaiian culture lost over hundred of years of Western influence.

Argument for the telescope, however, claimed that building it would do nothing but respect their history. How did the ancient Hawaiians get to the island? They used the stars. It was "in their blood" to understand the heavens. Most of the those complaining are young disenfranchised people struggling in one of the crappiest economies in America.

Of course this could be a generalization based on second hand observation.

As for me, as big as these telescopes are, they look like ants on top of these massive volcanoes. Ruining the scenery is nonsense.

We covered the Groundbreaking for World's Largest Telescope nearly a month ago.


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  • (Score: 5, Informative) by Covalent on Saturday December 05 2015, @03:11AM

    by Covalent (43) on Saturday December 05 2015, @03:11AM (#272065) Journal

    Here's the problem: The TMT folks just went and followed the procedures. They got a permit and figured "Hey, we're good."

    I'm from Detroit, so I know better. ;)

    The reality is, if you want to get something done, and there's entrenched interests, you have to pay them. That's just the reality of doing business with "local community members" (aka Irrational Pseudo-Owners...see below)

    Now, before you go and say "Hey, this guy is using Detroit as an example! That shithole didn't get anything right!!!", I totally agree with you. I'm not at all suggesting that anyone should PURPOSELY emulate Detroit.

    But this situation is already mired in a Detroit-like state. You've got a group who holds considers the area "theirs" (the aforementioned Irrational Pseudo-Owners). They don't officially have rights to it, but they act like it's theirs and there is no way that will ever change. The locals in Detroit act very much like this. Try to close a school in Detroit and you'll see it in action, even though the population of school-aged children in Detroit is about 1/2 what it once was and the school is crumbling to pieces.

    So how do you get things done in a situation like that?

    1. You pay off the protesters.
    2. You publicly agree to build a "community center" nearby.
    3. You guarantee a certain amount of the employment to locals.
    4. You establish a foundation to help poor members of the community.

    Or, in shorter terms, you grease palms. Lots and lots of palms.

    Mike Illitch (owner of Little Caesars Pizza and the Detroit Tigers and Red Wings) wanted to build a new hockey stadium in Detroit to replace the dilapidated one they use now. The land he wanted was nearly worthless, as is much of the land in Detroit. But the minute he announced the plans for a new hockey stadium, suddenly those land owners cried foul. "This parcel is precious to me!" and that sort of thing.

    But Illitch has been doing business here for decades. It was amazing how quickly the sacred ground was acquired, and the city council appeased, and the county government approval was procured, and the state government was placated, and the federal government and on and on and on. Everybody got paid in one way or another. Doesn't hurt that Illitch is a billionaire many times over.

    tl;dr --> They didn't bribe enough people. That is why they are failing right now.

     

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  • (Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 05 2015, @03:18AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 05 2015, @03:18AM (#272069)

    You are a dick. Seriously, it takes a huge amount of dickhood to utterly dismiss people whom you've never met and don't know a thing about as looking for nothing more than a payout. Many of the people involved in this lawsuit are dirt poor because their ancestors got royally screwed out of their property when the islands were illegally annexed and yet they don't expect to make a dime from this. Don't be that guy who lives down to the stereotype of the haole.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 05 2015, @06:03AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 05 2015, @06:03AM (#272099)

      Many of the people involved in this lawsuit are dirt poor because their ancestors got royally screwed out of their property when the islands were illegally annexed...

      Legally. Legally annexed. You can't claim someone annexing your land is illegal when you have no law against it and openly welcome the annexation, or rather all the monetary benefits that went along with it. Hey, just like what they are doing here again, wanting money for nothing. Yeah, they are dirt poor. Yeah, they want money. Why is it surprising when people call bullshit on claims of beauty and spirituality when a poor person asks for more money? People that deny their own greed when holding out their hands for more should be utterly dismissed.

      As for your racism, when in doubt, switch words to see if you are a hateful bigot that deserves no respect on this earth or any other.

      Don't be that guy who lives down to the stereotype of the Jew.

      Don't be that guy who lives down to the stereotype of the wetback.

      Don't be that guy who lives down to the stereotype of the chink.

      Don't be that guy who lives down to the stereotype of the nigger.

      A slur is a slur even if you think you are right in using it.