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Paul Buchheit reports via AlterNet
While Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning and John Kiriakou are vilified for revealing vital information about spying and bombing and torture, a man who conspired with Goldman Sachs to make billions of dollars on the planned failure of subprime mortgages was honored by New York University for his "Outstanding Contributions to Society".
This is one example of the distorted thinking leading to the demise of a once-vibrant American society. There are other signs of decay:
- A House Bill Would View Corporate Crimes as "Honest Mistakes"
- Almost 2/3 of American Families Couldn't Afford a Single Pill of a Life-Saving Drug
- Violent Crime Down; Prison Population Doubles
- One in Four Americans Suffer Mental Illness; Mental Health Facilities Cut by 90 Percent
- The Unpaid Taxes of 500 Companies Could Pay for a Job for Every Unemployed American ...for two years ...at the nation's median salary of $36,000 ...for all 8 million unemployed.
Citizens for Tax Justice reports that Fortune 500 companies are holding over $2 trillion in profits offshore to avoid taxes that would amount to over $600 billion. Our society desperately needs infrastructure repair, but 8 million potential jobs are being held hostage beyond our borders.
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(Score: 5, Insightful) by ikanreed on Tuesday December 08 2015, @03:03PM
On the other hand, rejecting partisan interpretation when one major political party has had overwhelming success with pushing an agenda that actively promotes each of the indicators in the summary is perhaps more than a bit simplistic, and refuses answers simply because they are divisive.
To say that all the answers lie in partisan politics is naive, but your attitude is equally naive, as it's a dismissal of the nature and behavior of a national government in shaping the long term economic and social trends in a country. Fundamentally I'd even say that your attitude is partisan, though it's cloaked in neutrality, as a narrative of governmental irrelevance has become something of a right-wing obsession.
Now, if I came in here and rightly stated that Donald Trump is an out-and-out fascist with policies barely distinguishable from the Nazis in early 1930s Germany, that would be pointless contentious political debate that adds nothing to the discussion.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 08 2015, @03:21PM
The US is a fascist state already. Trump is simply taking it to the next logical step - Nazi.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by ikanreed on Tuesday December 08 2015, @03:31PM
On what grounds do you deem the core ideology of the United States fascist?
I do see the currents of nationalism and militarism carried all over the place, but that's not all it takes.
(Score: 5, Informative) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Tuesday December 08 2015, @03:36PM
The "Core ideology of the United Sates" and what the United States actually does are two very different things. On paper, the US is all about freedom, justice, peace and prosperity. In practise.... not so much.
I mean if I declare my "core ideology" to be pacifist and then immediately go about killing and eating people, would you judge me on my words or my actions?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by ikanreed on Tuesday December 08 2015, @03:47PM
The thing is that fascism is an ideology. You can be shitty and militaristic and violent without actively subscribing to fascism. You could certainly make the case that fascist ideologies is embedded in places of power rather than the citizenry or national identity, but I'd still be curious to where exactly you think that is.
(Score: 2) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Tuesday December 08 2015, @03:56PM
You've lost me. Who is the self-declared fascist here?
(Score: 2) by ikanreed on Tuesday December 08 2015, @04:00PM
Self-description isn't (strictly) important. Believing in the core elements of the ideology is. I want to know who you think the fascist believers are.
(Score: 5, Informative) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Tuesday December 08 2015, @04:43PM
The biggest fascists in the USA are in government, the military and in the boardrooms of the biggest (admittedly multinational) banks and businesses. They are all so closely intertwined that it's hard to pick them apart, to be honest.
I'm sure if you asked any of them they would describe themselves as definitely not fascist, but the fact is:
1 - They believe in government run by business, for business, to the extent that democracy has been effectively reduced to accountability theatre.
2 - They believe that war is just another way to make a profit.
3 - They believe that the population made to support their agenda via propaganda, using a combination of fear, fantasy and mental hackery (aka advertising) to make common people believe black is white and thereby fight against their own best interests.
4 - They promote the belief that the USA is the unrivalled, indisputable, eternal champion of everything. All others are ipso facto inferior.
5 - They promote the belief / attitude that "our way is the only way", or if you prefer, "with us or against us".
6 - They believe that no punishment is too harsh for those that don't fit into their worldview.
Is that fascism? Maybe not by the book, but it's pretty bloody close.
The real irony is that what the USA is supposed to stand for, and what most Americans believe it actually does stand for, is the exact opposite of what it currently is.
(Score: 2) by ikanreed on Tuesday December 08 2015, @04:55PM
I can tacitly accept that interpretation as valid.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by TobascoKid on Tuesday December 08 2015, @06:21PM
2 - They believe that war is just another way to make a profit.
Just another way to make a profit? Opening a restaurant is just another way to make a profit. War is second only to banking as a way to make a profit (third is the reconstruction business after a place has been rubbleized).
(Score: 4, Funny) by MrGuy on Tuesday December 08 2015, @04:24PM
Say what you will about the tenets of national socialism. At least it's an ethos.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 08 2015, @09:26PM
Actually no, fascism isn't an ideology, it is a societal model or form of governance based on absolute alignment of the populace behind the leadership and brutal suppression of any dissent. For practical reasons it has to be based on some form ideology (racist, socialist, whatever) but AFAIK it's inventors in the roman empire had no such thing.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Non Sequor on Wednesday December 09 2015, @01:20AM
Actually no, fascism isn't an ideology, it is a societal model or form of governance based on absolute alignment of the populace behind the leadership and brutal suppression of any dissent. For practical reasons it has to be based on some form ideology (racist, socialist, whatever) but AFAIK it's inventors in the roman empire had no such thing.
This is the most accurate characterization of fascism that I've seen in an online discussion. If you look at Germany, Italy, and (don't forget) Spain in the 30s, plus movements other places that didn't get a foothold, the common theme of the fascist movements was that they believed that the world needed their particular strain of thought to seize control. To them, brutality was just a sign of strength and will, which they viewed as needed to advance [INSERT GOAL HERE].
Fascism is what you get when people abandon the idea that they need to, in some manner, manage the level of disagreement over public policy.
Write your congressman. Tell him he sucks.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 08 2015, @08:59PM
That depends. If you are a muslim then we would be forced to say that you are a "lone wolf" and not representative of the other billion or so people who believe, or are forced to go along, with a social system which condones rape, theft, murder, slavery, subjectification of women, pedophilia, and worse who want to inflict this on the rest of the world.
I judge a person by their actions. Not by why they performed the action. I also judge people for their choices and reasoning.
(Score: 0, Troll) by VLM on Tuesday December 08 2015, @03:52PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism [wikipedia.org]
Emilio Gentile pretty much hits it on the node. Flynn, all the same.
Note that its a mistake to think shrill SJWs represent contemporary thought. They get attention precisely because they are so far from mainstream thought. Admittedly they control the irrelevant academic sector and journalism, but much like Russians under communism, nobody actually believed any of it, but went along silently. So thats how you fit something like "a civil ethic founded on total dedication to the national community, on discipline, virility, comradeship, and the warrior spirit" vs SJW doctrine... if the opposition is a fringe view, then mainstream must not be the opposition.
Not all the SJWs are anti-fascist. Paxton's definition is absolutely insane if you read it in the spirit of the Missouri BLM protesters. Like they literally cut and pasted him. Its crazy accurately it fits. Its insane that if you found someone under a rock who has no idea whats going on with BLM, you could just give them Paxton's quote in the linked article and they'd be totally accurately up to date on what they're doing and why. Its worth reading the article just to read the Paxton quote while thinking "BLM".
Politically I can't think of anyone domestically who I like less than FDR, but I can respect genius in the opposition when I see it, so I present:
"The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism — ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power"
Now read FDR's "group" as leadership by corporations and protesters, and you have America in a nutshell.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by ikanreed on Tuesday December 08 2015, @04:05PM
I hope you won't take this the wrong way, but it seems like you took one of the least specific definitions on that page(I've found Umberto Eco's definitions to be much better and more respected in that regard) and then stretched it to target your clearly personally disliked political opponents.
I can't help but feel that your statements are more axe-grinding and less anything resembling a coherent point about fascism in the US.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by VLM on Tuesday December 08 2015, @04:31PM
I didn't have to stretch very hard. Not because they as a little group are almost there, but because the whole country is almost there so naturally that little group I dislike fits under an only mildly stretched moniker. That's the interesting part, that our extreme left is none the less far right.
Its a display of absolute vs relative. In a relative sense the left is to the left of our right and they traditionally use "fascist" as a pejorative against those to the right but hilariously the whole country in an absolute sense is so incredibly far right fascist that even our most extreme brothers in the far extreme relative left are none the less so far right in an absolute sense that academic descriptions of fascism fit their behavior to a tee. Which is no surprise, they live in an ultra far right fascist country so even if they are far outliers toward the left, they will none the less still be to the right compared to reality or whatever.
Its like debating how Lenin could be to the left or the right of Marx in an abstract sense, but they're both kinda lefties no matter how far apart they may be from each other.
Rather than discussing relative extremes, we could just look at how theoretically moderate soccer mom style normie independent voters would none the less categorize somewhat fascist by any of a bazillion definitions.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by ikanreed on Tuesday December 08 2015, @05:19PM
I think that's pretty fair.
Fascism, by its nature, is populist. Thus all populism is likely to reek a bit of it.
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Tuesday December 08 2015, @08:14PM
You didn't have to stretch very hard because that definition is so vague it's completely meaningless. It sounds like it was written by one of those nonsense paper generators:
Seriously, WTF does this even mean?
a culture founded on mystical thought and the tragic and activist sense of life conceived of as the manifestation of the will to power, on the myth of youth as artificer of history, and on the exaltation of the militarization of politics as the model of life and collective activity;
(Score: 2) by NoMaster on Tuesday December 08 2015, @11:06PM
It sounds like something Heinlein would've written and creamed himself over.
And if they'd turned that book into a movie, that phrase would be followed by "Would you like to know more?"...
Live free or fuck off and take your naïve Libertarian fantasies with you...
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 08 2015, @04:20PM
The corporate crony capitalism that defines a fascist regime has been incrementally crafted via lobbying and "campaign contributions" since the 1960's, giving us a fascist government in fact if not law. We differ from Il Duce's Italy in that A) we have two corrupt parties, not one and B) we have a judicially-neutered Constitution instead of an impotent monarch.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by MrGuy on Tuesday December 08 2015, @04:30PM
Tell me, what do you expect the campaign contributions are used for?
As I see them, they're used by politicians to pay political consultants, craft fancy messages, and put out advertisements. Campaign contributions are used to persuade. They're not paying for jackbooted thugs to force you to vote for someone, or for retribution against enemies. Yes, politicians are corrupt for large donors, but they do so to fund campaigning.
And you know what? That means WE'RE the problem. If enough advertising dollars and slick messaging can get the "wrong" person elected, then shame on us for not being an informed electorate. Shame on us for being swayed by a cheap soundbyte. Shame on us for not knowing enough about major policy decisions affecting our country to be able to judge the merits of various approaches for ourselves.
You know how we reduce the influence of money on politicians? By NOT LISTENING. You don't need a handgun to protect you from morally bankrupt politicians. You simply need to identify them and vote against them.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by sjames on Tuesday December 08 2015, @04:50PM
It doesn't work that way. You aren't allowed to actually vote against someone, you can only vote for someone else. Not helpful when your choice is bungee or death.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 08 2015, @05:22PM
If only Candidate A was any less beholden to Wall $treet than Candidate B you might have a point. Hobson's Choice and all that. The mythical unicorn viable independent candidate doesn't exist in this universe. Key word: viable.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 09 2015, @12:06AM
Why aren't they viable? Because people don't vote for them. Quit being a coward and stop following things simply because they are popular. The only wasted vote is a vote for evil.
(Score: 3, Informative) by iamjacksusername on Wednesday December 09 2015, @03:11AM
1960s? Try 1760s.
This country was founded by a mercantilist sea empire. Initial expeditions were financed by the British East India Company, Dutch East India company, and agents financed by European trade consortium. The tea trade, the tobacco trade, the wood from the vast North American wilderness fueled the rising industrialism in Europe.
For more modern examples before the 1960s, start with "War is a Racket" by Major General Smedley Butler. That book should be required reading in every high school History class.
(Score: 1) by hulk smash on Tuesday December 08 2015, @08:12PM
...and so is the fate of democracy :[
(Score: 4, Insightful) by edIII on Tuesday December 08 2015, @05:54PM
I strongly disagree with you. It's greatly needed political debate (although not really political) and most certainly adds to the discussion. Trumps policies are fascist by definition, and are reminiscent of Nazi ideals. Trump is the officially endorsed candidate for white supremacy groups right now, calling him the "The Ultimate Savior" already.
I agree with you that most discussions involving Trump would devolve into divisive political discourse, but what you've mentioned is something we should have bipartisan support on; Trump is a dangerous bigot and racist. His most recent statements indicate a complete disconnect with reality, common sense, or an understanding of history. Trump is perfectly willing to bring back the Japanese internment camps, which is completely insane and deserving of the reactions it has received. Dick Cheney, who most consider to be pretty evil (popular), has come out and said Trump represents everything that the Republican party, and America, represent.
At this point I honestly think we can diverge from politics completely and just speak of Trump as what he is. A dangerously sociopathic bully willing to repeat the mistakes of history with blind aggression and hubris.
None of my comment here is intended to be political whatsoever. I don't consider Trump to be a real politician, or a serious contender for President. Just a bully, bigot, and racist that has no business in politics, much less a Presidential debate.
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 4, Informative) by edIII on Tuesday December 08 2015, @05:56PM
minor correction. Cheney has condemned Trump as not representing Republican ideals or American values.
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 2) by Kromagv0 on Wednesday December 09 2015, @03:20PM
Cheney has condemned Trump as not representing Republican ideals or American values.
To me that almost sounds like a reason to support Trump.
T-Shirts and bumper stickers [zazzle.com] to offend someone
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 08 2015, @06:36PM
Trump is the officially endorsed candidate for white supremacy groups right now, calling him the "The Ultimate Savior" already.
You are woefully misinformed.
The official title is " God Emperor Trump [imgur.com]".
(Score: 5, Touché) by aristarchus on Tuesday December 08 2015, @06:01PM
Now, if I came in here and rightly stated that Donald Trump is an out-and-out fascist with policies barely distinguishable from the Nazis in early 1930s Germany, that would be pointless contentious political debate that adds nothing to the discussion.
Well thank goodness that you did not come here and state that Donald Trump is an out-and-out fascist with unAmerican policies that were last seen in Nazi Germany or the Jim Crow South, because that would be pointless even though very true, and a clear and present danger to the continued existence of the United States of America as a Liberal Democratic country, and it would add nothing to the discussion. So thank you, ikanreed, for not bringing up that Trump is a fascist and member of the One Percent who makes money by fake bankruptcy and avoiding his fair share of taxes. This whole discussion could have gone sour. We dodged the bullet by not mentioning that Donald Trump is a fascist and the the likely winner of the Republican primaries to be the party's Presidential Candidate. It was a near thing. We are so lucky.