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posted by martyb on Saturday July 23 2016, @11:47PM   Printer-friendly
from the for-certain-values-of-utopia dept.

Paraphrased: a Bloomberg Businessweek report that Nicole Antal, a librarian in Sharon, Vermont discovered that a Utah-based foundation had quietly purchased more than 900 acres of nearby farmland adjacent or close to the birthplace of Joseph Smith.

The mastermind of the purchases, a wealthy engineer named David Hall, made contact with Antal and was very forthcoming about his vision - sustainable, high-tech, high-density communities across the globe; with a trial run in Vermont based on the Plat of the City of Zion. While all that sounded a bit farfetched, Hall revealed that he already had more than 150 engineers working on technology and architecture for the project.

Vermont, famous for being fiercely proud, idealistic, and ornery (this guy being one of the more famous residents) were stirred into a frenzy, with the opposition concerned that Hall was attempting to start a cult.

Hall is a fourth-generation Mormon. "Joseph Smith was just the wildest guy out there," he says. "Lots of things he did were stupid, but in my view, he was a sage or a seer and didn't even understand what came to him." The more futuristic aspects of his plans include pedestrian communities which sustain individual privacy and views of nature. Rooftop farms will make use of advanced techniques drawn from marijuana cultivation, and box-shaped greenhouses will improve yields and prevent the spread of disease and insects. Ground-floor spaces will be occupied by businesses, all connected by enclosed walkways and space for moving "pods" that transport the sick and elderly.

The article is a bit long even for an adequate summary here, but there are many technological aspects of Hall's plans worth reading about, and it is refreshing to see that somebody is concentrating on the positive rather than the negative. What do you think?


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  • (Score: 0, Troll) by SomeGuy on Sunday July 24 2016, @02:00AM

    by SomeGuy (5632) on Sunday July 24 2016, @02:00AM (#379257)

    There is no such thing as "God" and anyone who does things because their imaginary sky fairy says so needs to up their meds because they are sick. Well, glancing at TFA it doesn't seem to spell out the exact motivations but with jebis this, magic underwear salesman that, it is fairly obvious.

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  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 24 2016, @02:15AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 24 2016, @02:15AM (#379262)

    These people were so inspired by their beliefs to attempt to build a revolutionary, technologically advanced, sustainable, earth-and-human-friendly ecosystem that they hope will help usher in human flourishing.
    You were so inspired by your so-called "non-beliefs" that you decided to shit on them for it.

    • (Score: 2) by SomeGuy on Sunday July 24 2016, @03:40AM

      by SomeGuy (5632) on Sunday July 24 2016, @03:40AM (#379284)

      That they hope will help usher in Mormon flourishing.

      There, fixed that for you.

      • (Score: 2) by PinkyGigglebrain on Sunday July 24 2016, @04:48AM

        by PinkyGigglebrain (4458) on Sunday July 24 2016, @04:48AM (#379294)

        If the Mormons can pull this off and it works then the tech used will be proven and other groups can copy/adapt it any way they want, including taking the whole religion thing out of it entirely.

        Be kind of interesting to see which variants work, those without religion, mixed, or those with religion as a core principle.

        Religion itself isn't bad, a belief in something greater than ones self can be a good thing. It depends on how it is applied. If you look at history religion has been the cause of some truly great works of art and literature, and sadly it has also been the cause of most of the wars and conflicts for all of Human history. All depending on how it was used.

        --
        "Beware those who would deny you Knowledge, For in their hearts they dream themselves your Master."
        • (Score: 3, Flamebait) by aristarchus on Sunday July 24 2016, @08:09AM

          by aristarchus (2645) on Sunday July 24 2016, @08:09AM (#379327) Journal

          Religion itself isn't bad, a belief in something greater than ones self can be a good thing.

          AA, bro? Religion is always bad. It is the influence of demons upon humanity. The "something greater" is rather lesser, pulled off by means of magic tricks, slight of hand, and willful submission. Religion is in itself evil, and it is time that all religions admitted as much. C'mon, Satanism already has! And what is the Flying Spagetti Monster if not the admission that all religion is delusionary evil and a frame for real estate scams like this one?

          "God gave us this land, seriously! No, Seriously!" Ugly bags of mostly water. Carbon-based lifeforms. Talking meat. Thinking reeds. Dust in the Wind.

          • (Score: 2, Interesting) by lcall on Sunday July 24 2016, @02:43PM

            by lcall (4611) on Sunday July 24 2016, @02:43PM (#379415)

            My religion is by far the best thing in my life. It helps me have peace and go forward in non-destructive ways through the hard times. It helps me have reasons to want to help others instead of just living selfishly. It helps me have reasons to want to learn, to be educated, to do good work including in science for the learning and usefulness it brings. Religion gives us reason to act with kindness and honesty even when no one is watching, because it tells us we are all accountable before God, and cannot ultimately hide our crimes (or sins). It gives confidence that wrongs will someday be righted, that those who mourn will be comforted, that it is worth it to try to do good even when others do not, that violence is generally not necessary nor good except to defend the safety of our families. It provides the foundation of private civic virtues (e.g., integrity when no one is watching) that are necessary for a civil society to function and avoid chaos. It gives us reason to be courteous and respect each other, even when we disagree. Religion gives us the Golden Rule.

            And, I personally have found it not only to be helpful, but to be true because the Book of Mormon and Bible together are amazing and have to be what they say they are, because the things they teach are elevating instead of denigrating, and based on my much life experience (testing these things). If you do not think so, I still respect you as an individual, and we are both free to choose our paths. I ask you to respect the choice and conviction of others, as I respect yours.

            • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 24 2016, @03:59PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 24 2016, @03:59PM (#379424)

              All of the things you describe are things that one should do simply because they are part of a civilized society. It is what sets humans apart from the monkeys we evolved from. It is part of making ourselves and humanity hopefully better, slowly continuing the evolutionary process. To improve, we can not hang on to archaic beliefs, even if they are warm and fuzzy. The universe is anything but warm and fuzzy, and to master it one must open their eyes and see it for what it is. It is worrisome that you think you need an imaginary friend as an excuse to do and be good. If you want to continue living in the dark ages, fine, but please permit any children you might have to follow different paths.

            • (Score: 3, Insightful) by aristarchus on Sunday July 24 2016, @09:09PM

              by aristarchus (2645) on Sunday July 24 2016, @09:09PM (#379508) Journal

              Religion gives us reason to act with kindness and honesty even when no one is watching, because it tells us we are all accountable before God, and cannot ultimately hide our crimes (or sins).

              This right here tells me that religious people are all sociopaths. If you need a Leviathan (Hobbesian) in the afterlife to scare you into doing right, I, for one, hope you do not lose your faith! But if there is no Sanity Clause, then what?

              Second, the infantile need for comfort, the belief that some "Heavenly Father" is in charge, seems rather pathetic. I can tolerate religious people, but it is very difficult to respect them. The operative emotion is pity. Especially those followers of Orpheus, what with their passports to the afterlife pressed on gold plates, looking for the white tree of truth and the well of remembrance on the path to Hades! Eleusian Mysteries! Such fear! And don't get me started on Mithra and Manichee! Why do all the truly crazy religions begin with the letter "M"?

              • (Score: 3, Insightful) by aristarchus on Tuesday July 26 2016, @08:05AM

                by aristarchus (2645) on Tuesday July 26 2016, @08:05AM (#380229) Journal

                Also tells me about the really prevalent tendency in religions, be they Judaic, Christian, or Islamic, to want to inflict punishment on anyone outside of their cult. Oh My God! I have been modded troll. You should be in fear, troll-modder, since you should know that trolls are sacred to Odin, he of the one-eye and eight-legged horse. Trolls are made of stone, which means your modding only makes the position contrary to yours more solid. This is why SoylentNews provided a "disagree" mod, so that you might avoid disturbing powers you cannot possibly comprehend!

                Why are religious people so sensitive to mockery? Yeah, I said "jehovah! Jehovah, jehovah, jehovah! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_hlMK7tCks [youtube.com] Are there any women here today? Of course, it is really hard to blaspheme Mormons, since they are a barnacle religion in the first place. Parasite of Americans upon ancient reformed middle-eastern religions that no one but the Djinn understand anymore. Rather like Pascal.

            • (Score: 3, Interesting) by turgid on Monday July 25 2016, @09:14AM

              by turgid (4318) Subscriber Badge on Monday July 25 2016, @09:14AM (#379713) Journal

              There are two more problems with this approach. first you have to abandon rationality in order simply to be able to believe in the deity. That opens up a huge can of worms. Secondly, all the great religions have "teachings" that can by used to justify and to encourage or demand behaviours of all kinds, so things like discrimination, bullying, slavery, torture, subjugation, sexual abuse and murder. If you are a follower and a believer you are therefore subject to the whims of your priest or whoever controls the information presented to you. Suicide bombing is one such consequence. Dawkins deals with this particular abhorrence in the God Delusion.

            • (Score: 0, Troll) by lcall on Monday July 25 2016, @02:10PM

              by lcall (4611) on Monday July 25 2016, @02:10PM (#379810)

              Religion has been misused, there are evil people in the world, and some of the things you all have said might apply to some other religions. Not to mine.

              If you read and understood the Book of Mormon you might see it differently: I urge you to find out more about what I am saying. The things you said all have answers that are good and real. It is not imaginary: I have tested repeatedly and know from experience.

              God lives, He has a plan, and everything will go better for all of us as we understand and follow that plan, regardless of what anyone else says or does.

              The longer I live the more things make sense, the more I can see why you say what you do (yes there are weirdness and problems with many religions and other things), and the more grateful I am for what I have learned. There are hard things, but I know it can be OK, and where we are headed, etc. I expect to be mocked but it doesn't have to be that way. You can know too, if you learn and test it. But you have to go find out for yourself, and not try to tell God how to do things, but see what he has already put in place for us all.

              • (Score: 4, Informative) by turgid on Monday July 25 2016, @06:15PM

                by turgid (4318) Subscriber Badge on Monday July 25 2016, @06:15PM (#379955) Journal

                Religion has been misused, there are evil people in the world,

                Religions are deliberately designed so that anything can be justified using them. That's why all of the great religions are full of contradictions. They are instruments of control.

                and some of the things you all have said might apply to some other religions. Not to mine.

                This very much applies to your version of Christianity as much as all the others.

                If you read and understood the Book of Mormon you might see it differently: I urge you to find out more about what I am saying.

                The origins of Mormonism are strikingly similar to the origins of Islam. I urge you to read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, God is not Great by Christopher Hitchins and Why I'm not a Muslim by Ibn Warraq.

                The things you said all have answers that are good and real. It is not imaginary: I have tested repeatedly and know from experience.

                If you understand the origins of religion, particularly the Abrahamic ones (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) you will begin to understand things better, You won't have any hard evidence of your experience because it is completely internal to your mind. Therefore you can't prove anything.

                God lives,

                God is a human construction, of the imagination.

                He has a plan

                There is no plan, because there is no god, and there is no empirical evidence for the plan. There is plenty of empirical evidence for other things, though.

                and everything will go better for all of us as we understand and follow that plan, regardless of what anyone else says or does.

                Following the millions of man-made imaginings of this so-called plan gives us murder, subjugation, slavery, war, disease, famine and all kinds of suffering through ignorance of physical reality in favour of belief in the fairy tail of the day.

                The longer I live the more things make sense, the more I can see why you say what you do (yes there are weirdness and problems with many religions and other things)

                Please enlighten us,

                I expect to be mocked but it doesn't have to be that way.

                Only a bigot would mock you. Compassionate people will gently help you and try to show you the truth and the evidence so that you can learn and grow.

                But you have to go find out for yourself, and not try to tell God how to do things, but see what he has already put in place for us all.

                Why is there a god? There is no evidence for it. God is specifically defined by most religions to be untestable and therefore there can exist no evidence for it. Therefore it can't exist.

                • (Score: 1) by lcall on Monday July 25 2016, @06:53PM

                  by lcall (4611) on Monday July 25 2016, @06:53PM (#379972)

                  If you want to be really intellectual about it, you might find the writings of Daniel Peterson interesting (at fairmormon.org, or his column in desnews.com).

                  But really, it boils down to deciding what is the nature of the Book of Mormon: where did it come from (rigorously, not based on guess or rumor), and if it is what it says it is, what does that logically imply? If it is not what it says it is I have little basis for what I am saying. If you read it and evaluate it based on its own internals, then put it to the test as it says in its last chapter, then we have something more to talk about. :)
                  All best wishes.

                  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by turgid on Monday July 25 2016, @07:33PM

                    by turgid (4318) Subscriber Badge on Monday July 25 2016, @07:33PM (#379995) Journal

                    It's well documented where the Book of Mormon came from. Someone tried to claim he was being divinely inspired as he dictated it to someone else. The someone else wasn't allowed to look, meanwhile the guy doing the divine inspiration bit was hiding and reading from something else. It's pretty much like how Islam started. Mohamed claimed to be illiterate but he was an accountant and had been taught by Jewish Rabis. That's why Islam is essentially recycled and watered-down Judaism with a bit of added Catholicism and then a bit of extra prophesising thrown in. You can read about it in peer-reviewed, verified historical studies. But you won't because it goes against your beliefs.

                    • (Score: 1) by lcall on Monday July 25 2016, @08:31PM

                      by lcall (4611) on Monday July 25 2016, @08:31PM (#380026)

                      What you say has been discussed academically much more than we are going to cover here. From wikipedia: "Since its first publication and distribution, critics of the Book of Mormon have claimed that it was fabricated by Smith[6][7][8] and that he drew material and ideas from various sources rather than translating an ancient record. Works that have been suggested as sources include the King James Bible,[34][35] The Wonders of Nature,[36][37] View of the Hebrews,[7][8][38] and an unpublished manuscript written by Solomon Spalding.[39][40][41] FairMormon maintains that all of these theories have been disproved and discredited, arguing that both Mormon and non-Mormon historians have found serious flaws in their research [42][43][44][45][46][47]".

                      The information required to "write" that book wasn't available to him personally; much of it wasn't available to academia in the US (like big structures in mesoamerica etc). A number of people felt and hefted the metal (gold) plates, and lived out their lives without denying it, and even though some became disaffected, they never denied their experiences with the Book of Mormon and the source plates. The Peterson reference from earlier are very interesting about the specifics of the history, and debunking many things. Then there are others like Nibley who wrote about 20+ books, the journals of many who knew Joseph Smith personally, etc.

                      There are the "fruits"/results of those beliefs in the lives of millions. The early Mormons were made refugees multiple times for their beliefs before landing in a place no one else wanted and where it said nothing could grow. My ancestors were there and I have been to the family reunions and read the journals and seen the effects in multiple generations of individuals' lives, of those beliefs (the best thing any of us have, frankly). And they built schools and homes etc etc. Tolstoy and Dickens saw & commented on those early people and their high character. (You can search if you want refs.)

                      For example, Nibley's analyses of the book's reflections of ancient near eastern culture, and of the cultures of the asian steppes, is fascinating, and shows the book has cultural connections that were frankly contrary to what academia thought at the time, but academic sources have learned much more since, that help it all fit together. It's comparable to walls of Jericho being discovered by archaeologists, when people thought those parts of the Bible were fictional. There is so much more, and over my small lifetime of personal study, it just keeps getting better and better.

                      But most importantly, and regardless of anything in the above being proven true or false, or anything: I have read the Book of Mormon itself, studied and tested it personally. It's amazing. We could debate endlessly and not convince each other, because it seems we want different things, so we will weigh and quote things differently ad nauseam. That's OK I guess.

                      You can read it and test it, too, and you will find it is nothing like the shallow work described by those who prefer to tear down than to build. I have read the book, tried it, and I know what I know. It helps me get through many things, and I am grateful! It's amazing.

                      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by aristarchus on Tuesday July 26 2016, @04:09AM

                        by aristarchus (2645) on Tuesday July 26 2016, @04:09AM (#380176) Journal

                        You can read it and test it, too, and you will find it is nothing like the shallow work described by those who prefer to tear down than to build.

                        Been there, done that, and it came to pass. The Book of Mormon is obviously fake. I especially liked the "Whore of Babylon" references, rather thinly disguised attacks on Catholicism. But the cake is the "Pearl of Great Price", allegedly translated by the illiterate Joseph Smith from some papyrus scraps he managed to purchase from some antiquities dealer. Of course, even better are the Salamander Letters, kind of a first draft of the Book, where a white salamander speaks to Joe instead of the Angle Moron. I suspect mushrooms.

                        I hope you reach the point where you can stand on your own and are not threatened by others pointing out that you are an obvious victim of a multi-generational con.

                        • (Score: 1) by lcall on Tuesday July 26 2016, @02:34PM

                          by lcall (4611) on Tuesday July 26 2016, @02:34PM (#380298)

                          I disagree, but those things have also been covered elsewhere in the sources I mentioned. I'm sorry your own reading experience was so different than mine. Each person can see and decide for themselves.

                          • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Tuesday July 26 2016, @08:06PM

                            by aristarchus (2645) on Tuesday July 26 2016, @08:06PM (#380423) Journal

                            But none is so blind, as those who will not see! Yes, everyone can decide what they want, but some of them will be deciding wrong. As someone said not too long ago, you may be entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts. The truth is one.

                  • (Score: 2) by turgid on Monday July 25 2016, @08:04PM

                    by turgid (4318) Subscriber Badge on Monday July 25 2016, @08:04PM (#380013) Journal

                    Doing a bit of googling, I found this [exmormon.org].

                    The section headed "What the Missionaries Will Not Tell You" is very informative.

                    Contemporaries of Smith consistently described him as something of a confidence man, whose chief source of income was hiring out to local farmers to help them find buried treasure by the use of folk magic and "seer stones." Smith was actually tried in 1826 on a charge of moneydigging. NOTES It is interesting that none of his critics seemed to be aware of his claim to have been visited by God in 1820, even though in his 1838 account he claimed that he had suffered "great persecution" for telling people of his vision.

                    So, a con man, no less! There's plenty more. Sounds like a false prophet to me.

                    • (Score: 1) by lcall on Monday July 25 2016, @09:02PM

                      by lcall (4611) on Monday July 25 2016, @09:02PM (#380045)

                      People said very many false things be cause they felt threatened. People continue to say many things, on both sides. Wikipedia has a more balanced treatment, in what I've seen at least, and is full of references. The main thing is to find out for oneself as described in my other post.

                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 26 2016, @08:21AM

                        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 26 2016, @08:21AM (#380233)

                        Wikipedia has a more balanced treatment, in what I've seen at least,

                        Well, of course, my dear Elder! Anyone can edit the Wikipedia entry, and no doubt the Elect have assigned a crack unit of Mormon Internet Missionaries to the task. But, this does not fool anyone, you know. I, for one, am personally aware that Joseph Smith once had carnal knowledge of a horse, because an Angel with a flaming sword forced him to. True story! Look for it soon on Wikipedia!

                        (Oh, Kolab? Not a real planet. Oh, Jesus? Son of God, so God. Satan? Angel, a creature of God, so not a God. President of the Church of the Latter Day Saints? Just Late, latter as in late, as in slow, as in retarded. Maybe you should consider Scientology? )

                        • (Score: 1) by lcall on Tuesday July 26 2016, @02:39PM

                          by lcall (4611) on Tuesday July 26 2016, @02:39PM (#380301)

                          Wkp can be useful as a way to refer to further references without having to rewrite them all myself, which is the use I had in mind here. It's easy to mock. The information is available for anyone whose purpose is to learn. I know what I have experienced and learned for myself over many years. Thanks for the discussion and best wishes.

                          (ps, off-topic: I provide source code for my AGPL personal organizer at https://github.com/onemodel/onemodel [github.com] , tutorials & FAQs etc are at http://onemodel.org [onemodel.org] . Like emacs org mode today in some ways, but stores info in postgres for present & big future capabilities that I missed there, like an easier UI, treating data like adhoc-modeled OO, and (hopefully this year or next) structured sharing between instances.)