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posted by martyb on Thursday August 18 2016, @12:56PM   Printer-friendly
from the gradually-getting-Gitmo-gone dept.

Al Jazeera and Fox News (Tor-friendly archived copy) report that fifteen captives have been released from the Guantánamo Bay Detention Camp in Cuba. The prisoners, who were captured in Afghanistan and Yemen, are being transferred to the United Arab Emirates for settlement.

There remain 61 prisoners at the camp, of whom at least 19 have been cleared for release.


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  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by bziman on Thursday August 18 2016, @01:24PM

    by bziman (3577) on Thursday August 18 2016, @01:24PM (#389575)

    I haven't flown an American flag since this illegal and unethical camp opened, and I won't until every last soul there has been freed, or lawfully tried in a court by a jury of his peers. As an American, I'm embarrassed on behalf of my country that such a place even exists. And I'm ashamed of every elected official who has allowed it to continue to exist.

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  • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Thursday August 18 2016, @01:39PM

    by Thexalon (636) on Thursday August 18 2016, @01:39PM (#389579)

    And it's not just the place itself.

    The reason Obama has always cited for not shutting it down is that the Republicans in Congress wouldn't let him shut it down. The thing is, what the Republicans actually refused to do was have the prisoners transferred to prisons in the United States, which is missing the entire point of the exercise: The US Constitution says it's illegal to imprison anybody without due process, and these prisoners have never received anything remotely resembling due process. Instead, they get kangaroo courts where if they demonstrate that they are completely innocent, they get to go right back to their cell and wait around some more. It doesn't matter one bit to the prisoners whether the prison is in Cuba or Kansas or Egypt, what matters is regaining their freedom and maybe seeing their family again.

    So it's not simply shutting down the building that matters. Prove these guys were really deserving of the treatment they are getting, or let them go with reparations and an apology. There's no excuse for anything else: They've had 15 years to come up with a reason, and 15 years for any of the intel sources to protect themselves. Enough with this "they're guilty but we can't tell anybody why" business.

    --
    The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Thursday August 18 2016, @03:23PM

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 18 2016, @03:23PM (#389614) Journal

      There are problems with that due process thing. Those problems are precisely why the neocon regime created a new class of people, and a very special prison for them. See, there is no "due process" for prisoners of war. If you are an enemy, and you are captured, you are a prisoner for the duration, unless your nation makes some kind of prisoner exchange for you. There is no due process for POW's.

      Except - they aren't POW's either. Prisoners of war are entitled to all the considerations under the Geneva conventions, so this special class of "enemy combatants" was created to deprive them of any rights due to POW's. Including any possibility of being freed under a prisoner exchange agreement.

      There is no due process for any person who has been dehumanized. They aren't civilians, they aren't prisoners of war, they aren't anything really. They have no legal status, because the neocons deprived them of their very humanity. They are a new class of people, with no rights, period. There is no precedent in legal history, unless we compare them to the American Indian, or to the Jews in Hitler's Germany. No rights, no status, not even recognized as human, so human rights don't apply.

      There simply is no due process for them. They will rot in limbo, unless and until the government's embarrassment outweighs it's inertia. An object at rest tends to stay at rest, until acted upon by some external force. Government will sit on these people until pressure is brought to bear, sufficient to pry Uncle's ass off of them.

      • (Score: 2) by Jiro on Thursday August 18 2016, @10:03PM

        by Jiro (3176) on Thursday August 18 2016, @10:03PM (#389761)

        So tell me why Obama can't fix any of those things?

        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday August 18 2016, @11:52PM

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 18 2016, @11:52PM (#389796) Journal

          A combination of two things, I think. Republicans will be outraged if those prisoners are brought to the US, or if they are freed. That outrage will be translated into lost power for the democrats.

          That, and Obama has no stomach for the fight.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 19 2016, @03:18AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 19 2016, @03:18AM (#389874)

        Geneva convention rights only protect uniformed (not undercover or otherwise blending in with noncombatants) military of a country that signs and abides by the Geneva convention.

        Here, we had roughly none of that: no uniform, not actual military, not under control of a country, and certainly not abiding by the Geneva convention. Probably some of them were captured in territory that de-jure belongs to a country that signed the Geneva convention, counting a previous government for the signature and pretending that the current government actually controls the territory.

        They get the Geneva convention rights that apply to undercover enemy spies: none at all. By that standard, we're being nice. It's legit to go full medieval on them.

        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday August 19 2016, @06:01PM

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday August 19 2016, @06:01PM (#390192) Journal

          That is not a bad observation. But, I'll counter that all of the jihadists represent Islam. They are members of a military force of a political movement. Islam isn't just a religion, it is also a political, judicial, and social structure. Think of the Holy Roman Empire, for comparison.

          Uniforms. You've got me on that one. We captured spies? Execute them. That can be justified. Indefinite imprisonment, deprived of all human rights cannot be justified.

  • (Score: 2) by wonkey_monkey on Thursday August 18 2016, @01:59PM

    by wonkey_monkey (279) on Thursday August 18 2016, @01:59PM (#389588) Homepage

    Have you actually done anything about it, though?

    I'm not suggesting you haven't; just that I'd rather hear about any non-symbolic action you've taken (which would include taking time to explain to anyone who'll listen why you don't fly the flag). It sounds like you're pretty passionate about it, so it's probably influenced your voting habits, at the very least?

    --
    systemd is Roko's Basilisk
    • (Score: 2, Funny) by Ethanol-fueled on Thursday August 18 2016, @02:04PM

      by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Thursday August 18 2016, @02:04PM (#389591) Homepage

      What we should do about it is kill all the detainees and and let Allah sort them out.

      Then we should close Gitmo, completely normalize relations with Cuba, and get access to their medicine, tourism, and classic car market.

      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday August 18 2016, @03:26PM

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 18 2016, @03:26PM (#389615) Journal

        I don't like your solution very much, but it's better than the status quo. I gotta give you that, at least.

    • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Thursday August 18 2016, @02:16PM

      by Thexalon (636) on Thursday August 18 2016, @02:16PM (#389596)

      It sounds like you're pretty passionate about it, so it's probably influenced your voting habits, at the very least?

      It's hard to have it influence your voting habits when the existence of that particular injustice is part of a "bipartisan consensus", when all your congressional candidates and presidential candidates and such either support it or are silent about it.

      The good news, of course, is that there are presidential candidates who are against Gitmo (Johnson, Stein). The bad news is that they are very unlikely to win.

      --
      The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 18 2016, @05:46PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 18 2016, @05:46PM (#389663)

        The bad news is that they are very unlikely to win.

        Yeah, because no-one votes for them because no-one thinks they can win because no-one votes for them because no one things they have a chance of winning because...
        You get my point
        Just vote for them already then... Don't be a coward, vote for what you want, not against what you don't want!
        Break the cycle, man

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 18 2016, @07:41PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 18 2016, @07:41PM (#389703)

          Johnson isn't getting a vote because he's all about deregulating employment at a time when employment is already disproportionately in favor of the company rather than the work.

          And Stein isn't getting a vote because she publicly supports quack science.

          At this point I think my vote for 2016 is Barr. She wants us to pull financial support from Israel, has overall sensible policies across (even if I don't agree with all of them) and has been campaigning for at least 2 elections now, so you know she is serious.

          Additionally getting a third party that isn't just Republican/Democrat lite might be more refreshing to the long term goal of a diversified political landscape, even if it doesn't happen this election.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 18 2016, @02:51PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 18 2016, @02:51PM (#389603)

    Just curious. Have you ever flown an American flag?

    • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday August 18 2016, @03:31PM

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday August 18 2016, @03:31PM (#389616) Journal

      Pretty good question. Want to submit a poll? A show of hands thing, "Who flies the American flag?"

      Personally, I do. One flies on top of my rollaway toolbox at work, another flies from my car window, another flies from my motorcycle.

      Although I'm embarrassed by my government, I am an American, and I am proud of my country.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by bob_super on Thursday August 18 2016, @05:21PM

        by bob_super (1357) on Thursday August 18 2016, @05:21PM (#389656)

        > Personally, I do. One flies on top of my rollaway toolbox at work, another flies from my car window, another flies from my motorcycle.

        I don't, and never will on my car or toolbox.
        I don't fly any flags matching any of my passports, regardless of how happy I am to have had the luck of growing up where I did.
        I've tried to explain to Americans why we don't feel the need, but few people who grew up praising the flag which hangs overhead every day seem able to relate.
        The US flag in particular comes with an excessive baggage of pride and exceptionalism. I could fly it to tell the people around me "look, I'm one of us" or to tell others "look, you're not the same as me". Not interested in either. There are moments for flag-waving and patriotic displays, like there are moments to profess your faith out loud. The rest of the time, the Golden Calf should sleep in a closet.

        > Although I'm embarrassed by my government, I am an American, and I am proud of my country.

        Therein lies the rub...

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by NotSanguine on Friday August 19 2016, @12:33AM

        Although I'm embarrassed by my government, I am an American, and I am proud of my country.

        I felt the same way for a long time. That started changing significantly just before the invasion of Iraq in 2003. I thought invading Iraq was a dumb idea and hoped it wouldn't come to that.

        And so, as I happened to be Amsterdam on February 15, 2003 [wikipedia.org] and was wandering around that beautiful city, I saw the protesters against the invasion marching freely through the streets, followed at a distance by a few Dutch police.

        later that day, I was back at my hotel and saw CNN broadcasting from New York, where protesters had not been allowed to march, rather they'd been penned in with police barricades and surrounded by hordes of police in riot gear.

        I was appalled that my country was treating peaceful protesters so badly. On that day, I was ashamed to be an American.

        The stuff that's gone on in the thirteen years since has only made me more ashamed of my country and government.

        It's sad. The ideals under which the US was founded are steadily being replaced with fear mongering, profiteering and xenophobia.

        The flag is just a symbol. And what it's come to symbolize aren't the ideals of liberty and equality under the law.

        --
        No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by dry on Friday August 19 2016, @03:47AM

        by dry (223) on Friday August 19 2016, @03:47AM (#389897) Journal

        Americans are weird. I've never flown my countries flag, don't know anyone who has, and other then around the beginning of July when my nation was born, never see it except at government buildings and the Legion.
        It's not a matter of not being proud of my country, its more of a matter of it only being a country that I just happen to belong to due to no effort on my part.

  • (Score: 4, Interesting) by rts008 on Thursday August 18 2016, @04:31PM

    by rts008 (3001) on Thursday August 18 2016, @04:31PM (#389636)

    Ditto, only I add the repeal of the PATRIOT Act to the list, until then, my flag pole will stay bare.

    When asked[1], my answer seems cause consternation and confusion, then indignation and accusations that I'm un-American.(central Oklahoma)
    Gah! It's like talking to a battered wife: 'why do you stick by that drunken abuser?' 'cause he LOVES me!' ; stupid git(s).

    [1]I have always had a flagpole for my 5' x 7' US flag, and until the PATRIOT Act, proudly flew my nation's flag. It won't fly again until the US gov't. quits acting like an 'enemy of it's citizens' by repeal of that hypocritically-named PATRIOT Act, shuts down Guantanamo, disbands the TSA, and for good measure, ends the criminally insane 'War on Drugs' that has cost us taxpayers trillions of dollars.

    • (Score: 2) by JNCF on Thursday August 18 2016, @08:00PM

      by JNCF (4317) on Thursday August 18 2016, @08:00PM (#389718) Journal

      I find it interesting that the war on drugs makes your list of things that need to be changed before flying the flag again, even though it predates your decision to stop flying the flag. If you had the 1990s to do over again would you still fly the American flag, or has your perspective shifted enough in the interim that you wouldn't?

      • (Score: 2) by rts008 on Friday August 19 2016, @04:20AM

        by rts008 (3001) on Friday August 19 2016, @04:20AM (#389919)

        Don't know at this stage.

        It seems that the 1990's were so long ago, and I looked at things differently then.

        After some thought, it would depend on whether or not I was aware of Nixon's reasons for the debacle. If I knew, the flag would not have been flown, and I might have been tempted to take a little trip to Washington with one of my rifles.

    • (Score: 1) by Type44Q on Friday August 19 2016, @02:54AM

      by Type44Q (4347) on Friday August 19 2016, @02:54AM (#389865)

      (central Oklahoma)
      Gah! It's like talking to a battered wife: 'why do you stick by that drunken abuser?' 'cause he LOVES me!' ; stupid git(s)

      Shit, what do you expect from a place where 98% of the populace is so ignorant that they're actually ignorant of the meaning of the word "ignorant" (they think it means "belligerent!").