SoylentNews is people
SoylentNews is powered by your submissions, so send in your scoop. Only 18 submissions in the queue.
SoylentNews
BBC News and CNN (disable CSS if page appears blank) report that the Council of State, a French administrative court, has suspended the ban on "burkini" swimsuits enacted in the town of Villeneuve-Loubet. The court has not yet decided whether the ban is legal or not. In the ruling, the court said that the ban "seriously and clearly illegally breached fundamental freedoms." Several other towns have recently enacted similar bans.
The Guardian (safe for work) reported on an incident in Nice in which the ban was enforced: police appeared to make a sunbather remove part of her suit.
previously:
The French Solution - or How I Learned to Laugh More (subtitle: Cannes Bans "Burkinis" Over Suspected Link to Radical Islamism)
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
French Court Suspends Swimsuit Ban
|
Log In/Create an Account
| Top
| 66 comments
| Search Discussion
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
QOTD:
The forest may be quiet, but that doesn't mean
the snakes have gone away.
(Score: 5, Informative) by nishi.b on Sunday August 28 2016, @10:58AM
I can tell you that many french people react as you do (but probably not the majority).
I myself consider this ban useless, even if there is no doubt that women going to beaches wearing these are mostly doing this to shock others (this is France, not the US or UK : the idea that people might be segregated by community and live as distinct groups is not really accepted here).
There were a lot of muslims in the schools I grew up in (80's and 90's) but no girl was wearing a headscarf, and the only thing that was noticeable was that parents could ask for meals without pork for their kids.
Walking around wearing afghan clothes (such as the Burka) was totally unheard of, especially for people who were born in France.
It might because there is a lot of unemployment, and that immigrants and their families (2nd and 3rd generations now) are often living in poor suburbs with not much to do to get out of it, but many young people seem to reject France as their country and consider themselves as more moroccan/algerian/tunisian... than their own parents, even if they never lived there. And especially more muslim.
As I was growing up, no kid would speak of him/herself as muslim, jew, christian or atheist.
Now in my kid's school, some parents who bring their kid are dressing in a very visible muslim dress (shorts, long beard, white cloth on the head / black veil leaving only the face visible). As France is a very secular country were in 1905 a law was edicted to remove the influence of the church on the state, there is a tradition against religions in society.
However, there is still a large majority of muslims that don't try to shove their beliefs in your face with their clothing, so people wearing afghan or saudi outfits are usually showing that they are praticing radical islam.
Now, in the last few years, there have been a number of high-profile terrorist attacks (Toulouse : school kids killed in a jewish school, Paris : Charlie Hebdo, then last november stadium, bars and concert hall, Nice last july for Bastille day).
I was shocked myself as many friends and family members were near the Paris november attacks. There is a human trait that wants to take revenge. See the US after september 11th : people are afraid, they are ready to accept any stupid "solution" to the problem.
Going to the beach in Nice a few days after 86 people were killed in the name of islam while dressing like the islamists is perceived as a provocation. This is why some of the mayors who tried to ban "clothes that do not respect secularity" did so for "public order".
In Corsica, there has been an incident were a muslim family tried to keep a smal public beach for themselves, throwing rocks at people coming close to the beach, and attacking a tourist because he took pictures of the women bathing in burkini. A row erupted with local families with about 5 injured people (including one hurt by a fishing spear gun). The mayor there is one of those who banned the outfit afterwards.
Yes, this will probably help the islamists by reinforcing the "us against them" mindset, but I am surprised at the amount of noise in world media about a ban that was enforced for a few days in only 4 towns, with the highest administrative court now saying that this is illegal.
(Score: 2) by wonkey_monkey on Sunday August 28 2016, @11:36AM
Going to the beach in Nice a few days after 86 people were killed in the name of islam while dressing like the islamists is perceived as a provocation.
I wasn't aware the Nice attacker was wearing a burkini.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk
(Score: 2, Troll) by nishi.b on Sunday August 28 2016, @12:40PM
Islamists are the ones pushing for this type of clothing, you know what I mean. There are many muslim women in France on beaches wearing bikinis, the ones wearing burkinis are usually radical islamists. And I am yet to see people wearing Burkinis defending the right of Saudi women to wear bikinis, so asking for tolerance is a bit rich...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 28 2016, @05:25PM
> the ones wearing burkinis are usually radical islamists.
Just like nuns wearing habits on the beaches are "radical catholics."
Don't be that asshole who thinks conservative equals (a) radical and (b) evangelical.
Just because you are a big-time muslim doesn't make you an islamist.
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by vux984 on Sunday August 28 2016, @10:19PM
the ones wearing burkinis are usually radical islamists.
I don't think anybody spending their day dozing on a sandy beach is a 'radical' anything.
And I am yet to see people wearing Burkinis defending the right of Saudi women to wear bikinis
And I don't see you defending the right of these women to wear burkinis.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 29 2016, @12:04AM
Compare a news presenter being criticised for presenting the Nice atrocity while wearing a hijab [itv.com] Vs. ~26,000 complaints for this mid-90s TV performance. [youtube.com]
The latter was nothing to do with the donning of a balaclava or the fact that IRA paramilitaries were still active, everything to do with english racism against singer James Bradfield for being Welsh... right?
As the lyric would have it: I've been too honest with myself, I should have lied like everybody else!
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Sunday August 28 2016, @11:44AM
It might be?
How about a new view on this - As the percentage of the Muslim population increases, their demands also increase. Let's call it "critical mass", as Dr. Hammond suggests.
http://blog.godreports.com/2015/09/how-islam-takes-over-countries/ [godreports.com]
Remember, Islam has been spread by the sword for more than a thousand years. Islam has never "pacified" a country, nation, or region, peacefully. They start small, with a few residents. They they start making demands. Then more demands. Then they start murdering people they don't like. On and on it goes, until they have taken over, and YOU are the illegal, in your own native land.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by maxwell demon on Sunday August 28 2016, @01:38PM
Wait, you assume that a web site named "godreports.com" contains reliable information about Islam?
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday August 28 2016, @02:02PM
That site had the information I was looking for - and the informatin isn't "about Islam". It is about Islam and Europe, as well as Islam and Christianity, with a bit of Islam against the World added in.
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/medieval/ed-ok-732-battle-tours-charles-martel-hammer-preserves-western-christianity.html [warhistoryonline.com]
https://billmuehlenberg.com/2016/07/17/islam-versus-western-civilisation-lessons-history/ [billmuehlenberg.com]
http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/army/p/martel.htm [about.com]
This is the SAME ISLAM that invaded Europe long ago. This is the SAME ISLAM that Martel fought about 1300 years ago. Islam hasn't changed, although most of the world has changed.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 28 2016, @05:52PM
That site had the information I was looking for
Confirmation bias much?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 30 2016, @09:39AM
Cam you present a coherent counter argument? With evidence?
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Sunday August 28 2016, @02:18PM
As another article puts it, “The Islamic State is obsessed with history and honor”:
France is an old country with a long history. The Islamic State has a laundry list of grievances against France going back a thousand years. ISIS also hates Europe in general for its colonial past. It blames France, in particular, for the break-up of the Ottoman Empire and the abolition of the Caliphate following the First World War. France was one of the leading countries involved in the crusades in the 11th century, and it is where the early Islamic Caliphate’s advance into Europe was halted by French ruler Charles Martel at the Battle of Tours in 732.
The Islamic State is obsessed with seeing itself as the revived Muslim Caliphate. It is therefore essential to its worldview that Europe’s old colonial powers are defeated. For similar reasons, ISIS has long threatened to conquer Rome, which would represent a symbolic victory over the long defunct Roman Empire. Without that, the Islamic State cannot claim to avenge the centuries old grievances with which it is obsessed and thus cannot fulfil its claims to restore the ‘lost honor’ of the immah.
Yes history matters. It matters greatly to Muslims, but most Westerners do not give a rip, and are overwhelmingly historically-illiterate. As a result, we are ill-prepared to take on the challenges of contemporary Islamic terror. Indeed, given such a weak response by most European leaders to the threat of Islam, it looks like it may well be Islam this time that finally prevails.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 28 2016, @03:34PM
> Yes history matters. It matters greatly to Muslims, but most Westerners do not give a rip
Oh look, its Soylent's resident ISIS collaborator. Here to spread ISIS's message that the west is incompatible with being muslim. ISIS is not Islam. Out of 1,600,000,000 muslims in the world, ISIS is less than 100,000 most of which are there for a paycheck and adventure not ideology.
Stop doing ISIS's job for them you fucking traitor.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday August 28 2016, @05:56PM
No, ISIS isn't Islam. ISIS is not responsible for every Muslim atrocity around the world. They are only responsible for their own atrocities.
East is east, and west is west, and never the twain shall meet. It is what it is - Islam is incompatible with democracy and the western way of life. You don't have to believe me, ask a Muslim.
http://gatesofvienna.net/2016/04/hamed-abdel-samad-islam-is-not-compatible-with-democracy/ [gatesofvienna.net]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 29 2016, @02:21AM
That's a nasty looking javascript page. Anybody know what it does?
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday August 29 2016, @10:52AM
It flows through the intarweb, up into your computer, and as soon as there is 300 pounds of it accumulated, your computer emits a loud "snap" as it leaps on you. It will suck your brains out through your anus, then ooze back into the intarwebs, leaving no clue behind. And, you, will join the ranks of the lizard people, as a disguise for one of them.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 29 2016, @06:53PM
So... it's just like CNN then?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 30 2016, @09:42AM
Introduction
The video below contains an interview with Hamed Abdel-Samad by one of Germany’s public broadcasters, the ARD. Born and raised in Egypt and the son of a Sunni imam, Mr. Abdel-Samad is an author and an apostate from Islam under police protection. He came to Germany in 1995 at the age of 23.
The subject of the interview arises from recent statements by politicians of the Alternative für Deutschland (AfD) party to the effect that Islam is incompatible with liberal democracy (cf. Gates of Vienna). A draft policy has just been published and it contains an Article entirely devoted to Islam’s “strained relationship to the democratic world order”. The policy is to be discussed at a party convention to be held in two weeks’ time.
Deputy party leader Beatrix von Storch is quoted in the video interview from the Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung which reports her as saying that
“Islam is inherently a political ideology, which is incompatible with the Constitution,”
Referring to Islam’s paraphernalia, she said:
“We are in favour of a ban on minarets, on muezzins and for a ban on full body coverings.”
Alexander Gauland, party whip for the AfD in Brandenburg and a deputy party leader, made a statement along the same lines:
“Islam is not a religion in the same way as Catholic or Protestant Christianity, but is intellectually always connected with the takeover of the state. For that reason the Islamisation of Germany is dangerous,”
At the basis of these quotations is the party platform [pdf] of the AfD’s Federal Association (Bundesverband). The lengthy Article 7.6, “Islam in strained relationship with our liberal-democratic World Order”, contains the following section which provides an idea of the spirit of the document:
“The AfD rejects the minaret as an Islamic symbol of dominance as much as it does the call of the muezzin, according to which there is no God except the Islamic Allah. The minaret and the call of the muezzin stand in contradiction to a tolerant coexistence of the religions which the Christian churches practise in the modern age.” (Section 7.6.3, 19-22)
Article 7.6 contains the following sections:
7.6.1 Islam does not belong to Germany
7.6.2 Criticism of Islam must be permitted
7.6.3 Foreign financing of the mosques must be ended
7.6.4 No statutory corporation for Islamic organisations
7.6.5 Prohibition of full body covering
This last section (7.6.5) is noteworthy in that it is finally at least a quasi-official application of standards to Muslims which the Frankfurt School requires as a template only for the European cultural sphere:
The AfD calls for a general prohibition of the full body covering by the burka and niqab in public and in the public service.
Burka and niqab erect a barrier between the wearer and their surroundings and impede thereby cultural integration and social coexistence. A prohibition is therefore necessary and lawful pursuant to the judgement of the EuGH (European Court of Justice).
No headscarf is to be worn in the public service; in educational institutions, neither by teachers nor by students following the French model.
The headscarf as a religio-political sign of subordination of Muslim women to the man is inconsistent with the integration and equal rights of women and girls as well as the unimpeded development of personality.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 31 2016, @12:26AM
Links?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 28 2016, @02:44PM
> Wait, you assume that a web site named "godreports.com" contains reliable information about Islam?
Welcome to Runaway's hyper-ventilating witch-hunt logic where anything crazy about muslims is true and anything reasonable about muslims is false. Don't even bother trying to point out the insanity, you can't reason someone out of a position they never reasoned themselves into.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 28 2016, @02:58PM
Could you kindly enlighten, educate and elaborate upon the reasonable aspects of Islam?
*cough*
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 28 2016, @03:20PM
> Could you kindly enlighten, educate and elaborate upon the reasonable aspects of Islam?
As someone who married a girl from a muslim family, I can say their reasonable aspects are the same as all the major religions.
> *cough*
How many hours have you spent around muslims?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 28 2016, @03:42PM
Ahmadi? [theguardian.com]
As an atheist living in a secular society, religion is irrelevant to me. You will forgive me for not running a stopwatch every time I interact with somebody from an identifiable religious denomination. That said; It was an eye-opener when I'd be drinking in a bar with a muslim friend and other muslims would just walk up and punch him in the face. "an Asian thing" apparently and my friend was adamant that I not involve myself.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 28 2016, @05:17PM
> Ahmadi?
Sunni. As if it matters. Nobody reasonable judges all christians by the actions of the westboro baptists, the lords army, the IRA or the KKK. But you and your ilk are ready to dehumanize all muslims based on the actions of the equivalent of those assholes.
> You will forgive me for not running a stopwatch every time I interact with somebody from an identifiable religious denomination.
I will not forgive you for running your mouth when you know jackshit about the topic.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 28 2016, @06:13PM
What? Show me a Christian country where people are still stoned to death? [youtube.com] Perhaps your wife's family disagree with Sharia but that would make them apostates and their fate would likely be the same as mine! This endless, multilateral, internecine war waged between the muslim sects is up to muslims to resolve. The only place we still have this sectarian bullshit between Christians in the UK is at football matches. [eveningtimes.co.uk] As a society, not only do we condemn it and view those involved as idiots but, additionally, those who fail to condemn it are likewise viewed as idiots.
What topic?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 29 2016, @11:09AM
Look, my half-witted freind: There might be a couple hundred Westboro freaks. Those freaks are ostracized by most of America's Christians. The smallest of Muslim sects has a following of millions.
There really aren't very many differences between on sect and another. And, all of the differences seem to center on one or another of the pedophile's perversions.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 28 2016, @03:27PM
Islam isn't the issue, its the right to believe whatever the fuck you want thats the issue. The clothing you wear, whether its a burka or nothing at all, is not "forcing your beliefs" on anyone, its better known as "freedom of expression".
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 28 2016, @03:48PM
To avoid contradiction, list a single Islamic country that enjoys these freedoms.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 28 2016, @05:22PM
> To avoid contradiction, list a single Islamic country that enjoys these freedoms.
Basically all of them. The Saudis are dicks, but they don't proclaim themselves to be anything more than dicks. Being better than one of the most autocratic regimes in the world is nothing to be proud of.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 28 2016, @06:34PM
Really? [wordpress.com]
1/7 - I'm not going through them all.
(Score: 2) by isostatic on Sunday August 28 2016, @07:13PM
Did I read somewhere it's illegal to be topless on a US beach?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Monday August 29 2016, @11:12AM
Another idiot. Muslims don't recognize YOUR RIGHT to believe whatever you want. Once there are enough Muslims in your country, you'll need special permission to build a church. No permission needed to build a mosque, but a church or a synagogue needs almost universal approval of the community. And, you ain't getting it.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by isostatic on Sunday August 28 2016, @07:11PM
Remember, Islam has been spread by the sword for more than a thousand years. Islam has never "pacified" a country, nation, or region, peacefully. They start small, with a few residents. They they start making demands. Then more demands. Then they start murdering people they don't like. On and on it goes, until they have taken over, and YOU are the illegal, in your own native land.
You're talking about the US right?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Monday August 29 2016, @11:14AM
Yes, of course. And, where do you think we took our lessons? The pirates of the Barbary Coast were good teachers, if not good pirates.
(Score: 1, Troll) by isostatic on Tuesday August 30 2016, @12:32AM
Ahh yes, the us's first steps in colonialism. Projecting force thousands of miles away. And still you wonder why half the world hates you.
(Score: 2) by pe1rxq on Sunday August 28 2016, @12:31PM
So he had a big fight between large groups where rocks and spear guns were used and somehow the mayor decided that banning a piece of clothing was the best response?
The mayor should have banned 'stupid'. It would not heave been an achievable goal, but at least it would be honest.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 28 2016, @12:36PM
There's no need to resort to calling Islam 'stupid', all religion is stupid!
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Sunday August 28 2016, @01:41PM
Yeah, I'm sure that Muslim family would have been entirely OK with the tourists photographing their women it if those women had worn bikinis instead of burkinis. ;-)
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 28 2016, @01:43PM
It goes both ways really. It is not, as you may think, that only radical islamist are wearing such clothing. Many moderate people started doing so because they perceive any reaction toward Muslims of not-Muslim people as an attack. And this shifts them ever more towards one side of the conflict, until they too, count as radicals. On the other side of the debate, people who used to be very tolerant are also shifting towards more strict attitudes towards immigrants, Islam, etc. I would not be surprised in the least to see the numbers of burkinis actually increase as a result of this ban (the fact that the court now prevented it does not matter, the damage is done), whereas the other-side will feel they "lost" because of the court decision and will not push for more strict regulations in another form. It is an ever increasing spiral reinforcing the us-against-them mentality that is happening on both sides. And it is very hard to break out of this.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 28 2016, @01:57PM
How so? Muslims attack, main and murder other muslims more frequently than any other group.
There is only one side to the "debate"...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 28 2016, @05:28PM
> How so? Muslims attack, main and murder other muslims more frequently than any other group.
Don't forget black on black crime! Because, you know, BLM is a terrorist group!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 31 2016, @12:41AM
Really pal, do you want to go there?
Black gun crime is 30 times... THIRTY FUCKING TIMES,,, not 30% but 30 times that of the white population! The black community have a problem and they can damn well deal with that before they dare start playing victim! George Soros's money is stretching thin!
(Score: 4, Interesting) by goodie on Sunday August 28 2016, @05:09PM
To add to your argument, I think that, and I mean no disrespect, people in the UK and North America simply do not realize how much French people expect everybody to be more or less the same when it comes to these things (and money etc.). Like parent said, nobody was dressed differently or behaved really differently for religious reasons. Now this does not mean that it is a good expectation or that French people did everything right when it comes to immigration etc. What is really worthy of note here is that this has skipped a generation. The previous generation did not wear burkas etc. as stated by parent. So the question is why now and why does the older generation not do more to try and alleviate these things?
WRT the burkini story, a North American person will often say "Why don't they let her do what she wants?" and a French will say "Why can't she wear a swimsuit like everybody else on the beach?". This is a stereotype but the mentality with regards to immigration, religion etc. are fundamentally different in France.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by jdavidb on Monday August 29 2016, @02:08AM
WRT the burkini story, a North American person will often say "Why don't they let her do what she wants?" and a French will say "Why can't she wear a swimsuit like everybody else on the beach?". This is a stereotype but the mentality with regards to immigration, religion etc. are fundamentally different in France.
The mentality that people should be made to do what others think is best is wrong whether it is French, American, or Klingon.
ⓋⒶ☮✝🕊 Secession is the right of all sentient beings