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posted by janrinok on Thursday September 15 2016, @06:03AM   Printer-friendly
from the quick-blame-somebody dept.

Edward Snowden is asking the US president to pardon him based on the morality of his action.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/13/edward-snowden-why-barack-obama-should-grant-me-a-pardon

Well, here is a completely opposite view from the other side, so to speak:

http://observer.com/2016/09/were-losing-the-war-against-terrorism/

"Since 9/11, NSA has been the backbone of the Western intelligence alliance against terrorism. Its signals intelligence is responsible for the strong majority of successful counterterrorism operations in the West. More than three-quarters of the time, NSA or one of its close partner Anglosphere spy partners like Britain's GCHQ, develops a lead on a terror cell which is passed to the FBI and others for action which crushes that cell before it kills. If NSA loses the ability to do this, innocent people in many countries will die.

Unfortunately, there's mounting evidence that NSA's edge over the terrorists is waning. It's impossible not to notice that jihadist emphasis on communications security and encryption, which is now gaining ground, began in 2013. That, of course, is when Edward Snowden, an NSA IT contractor, stole something like 1.7 million classified documents from his employer, shared them with outsiders, then defected to Moscow."

"However, our precious edge in the SpyWar is waning fast. We are no longer winning. We're about to hear a great deal of unwarranted praise of Ed Snowden thanks to the hagiographic movie about him by Oliver Stone that's to be released this week. Don't be fooled. Snowden is no hero. In truth, he and his journalist helpers have aided terrorists in important ways. Snowden and his co-conspirators have blood on their hands—and perhaps much more blood soon thanks to their aid to the genocidal maniacs of ISIS."


Original Submission

 
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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 15 2016, @06:05AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 15 2016, @06:05AM (#402151)

    Honestly, I don't feel like dignifying this with much more than "your stupid and your opinion is wrong".

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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Francis on Thursday September 15 2016, @06:26AM

    by Francis (5544) on Thursday September 15 2016, @06:26AM (#402159)

    Pretty much. We're losing the war with terrorists because we view it as a war. The only possible way of winning is to stop bombing brown people and just provide aid to groups engaged in peaceful activities.

    Or better yet, just leave well enough alone and let things sort themselves out. We've had the better part of 50 years of incompetent small dick diplomacy that has had consequences that are still working their way through. Every time we get involved in a bullshit war that has nothing to do with us or arm rebels we just add more chaos that has to work itself out.

    At this point, we've more than adequately proven that continually meddling in the affairs of sovereign states and trying to make things go our way backfires most of the time. Perhaps it's time we stopped sending troops into places and tried just supplying humanitarian aid with no strings attached?

    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 15 2016, @02:27PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 15 2016, @02:27PM (#402281)

      What do you mean "backfire?" There was an article on the other site yesterday about GCHQ pushing for a Great Firewall of the UK. Look at all the pork that's gone to drone manufacturers and the F-35, not to mention the security theater at airports.

      The EU is crumbling due to Muslim migration, and a US presidential candidate who's polling pretty well is running mostly on the idea that they should shut down all immigration of Muslims. Just think of the jobs program that border wall will create.

      If you're a lizard and don't really care about human lives beyond keeping them happy enough that they don't organize against you (and do something crazy like elect a democratic socialist or a libertarian), you would say it's been quite successful.

      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Jeremiah Cornelius on Thursday September 15 2016, @03:20PM

        by Jeremiah Cornelius (2785) on Thursday September 15 2016, @03:20PM (#402311) Journal

        "NSA has been the backbone of the Western intelligence alliance against terrorism"

        Just a bullshit thesis. A lie that makes the liar proud of himself and his worldview, based on hubris and delusional self-aggrandizement.

        "Well we can't show you evidence proving this claim, because revealing these secrets would further damage the mission that is saving us all from mortal danger and threatens national existence."

        Always the pearl-clutching security patriotism of the liar.

        --
        You're betting on the pantomime horse...
        • (Score: 5, Informative) by Jeremiah Cornelius on Thursday September 15 2016, @03:30PM

          by Jeremiah Cornelius (2785) on Thursday September 15 2016, @03:30PM (#402313) Journal


          Islamic Jihadi Immigrants 2
          US Far-Right Terrorists 5
          All "Islamic Jihadi" Terrorist including Americans 9
          Armed Toddlers 21
          Lightning 31
          Lawnmowers 69
          Being Hit By A Bus 264
          Falling Out Of Bed 737
          Being Shot By Another American 11,737

          SAVE US, NSA!

          --
          You're betting on the pantomime horse...
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 15 2016, @03:45PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 15 2016, @03:45PM (#402323)

            Citation needed.

          • (Score: 2) by takyon on Thursday September 15 2016, @03:56PM

            by takyon (881) <reversethis-{gro ... s} {ta} {noykat}> on Thursday September 15 2016, @03:56PM (#402330) Journal

            Falling Out Of Bed 737

            Congrats, I'm too scared to go to sleep now.

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          • (Score: 2, Insightful) by DavePolaschek on Thursday September 15 2016, @05:51PM

            by DavePolaschek (6129) on Thursday September 15 2016, @05:51PM (#402384) Homepage Journal

            Falling Out Of Bed 737

            I initially read that as "Falling out of a 737" and wondered how I had missed THAT news story.

            • (Score: 2) by Jeremiah Cornelius on Thursday September 15 2016, @06:22PM

              by Jeremiah Cornelius (2785) on Thursday September 15 2016, @06:22PM (#402396) Journal

              Interesting that the next item is 11,737.

              --
              You're betting on the pantomime horse...
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 16 2016, @12:11PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 16 2016, @12:11PM (#402724)

                Remember that 73.7% of statistics you read on the internet are made up.

          • (Score: 2) by srobert on Thursday September 15 2016, @11:03PM

            by srobert (4803) on Thursday September 15 2016, @11:03PM (#402521)

            I think somewhere between lightning and lawmowers is being stung to death by bees. Seems like we should wage war on bees and wasps before jihadis if we want to save more lives.

            • (Score: 2) by Fluffeh on Thursday September 15 2016, @11:50PM

              by Fluffeh (954) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 15 2016, @11:50PM (#402530) Journal

              Arguably, we are already wiping them out through our use of pesticides and the like. I don't think it will be too long before we REALLY start to feel the impact of their vastly diminishing numbers.

        • (Score: 2) by Jeremiah Cornelius on Thursday September 15 2016, @06:27PM

          by Jeremiah Cornelius (2785) on Thursday September 15 2016, @06:27PM (#402400) Journal

          Another ideological non-term, identifying someone who smokes their breakfast.

          --
          You're betting on the pantomime horse...
        • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Thursday September 15 2016, @11:23PM

          by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Thursday September 15 2016, @11:23PM (#402525)

          It looks to me like the US needs to keep these wars going because it is so lucrative.
          Here are a couple of links which show America's various wars:
          Lots of murdering of native people here [wikipedia.org]

          I haven't checked this [infowars.com]but it looks about right to me.

          If the country's major industry is killing people, you get pretty good at it. Creating your own market is what every business likes to do, so arming a bunch of people you can then go and fight is a good strategy, so is making people so angry they attack you.

          This is what the US does.

          Here is a list of some governments toppled. [globalresearch.ca]

          Some of those were democratically elected.

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Bot on Thursday September 15 2016, @05:54PM

      by Bot (3902) on Thursday September 15 2016, @05:54PM (#402386) Journal

      The only good way to deal with terrorism is to consider it normal crime. Find the perpetrators and fuck everybody who helped, directly or indirectly. You let the family of Bin Laden depart after 9/11? that means obstruction of justice, go behind bars. When whatever political decision is made because of terrorism, somebody will have profited from it.

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      • (Score: 2) by Wootery on Friday September 16 2016, @10:03AM

        by Wootery (2341) on Friday September 16 2016, @10:03AM (#402697)

        So your answer to Was Operation Neptune Spear (in which Bin Laden was killed) justified? would be an uncompromising Definitely not, then?

        The difference between ordinary crime and terrorism is that terrorism is far closer to an enemy-of-the-state situation than to, say, robbery.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 15 2016, @10:57PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 15 2016, @10:57PM (#402517)

      >The only possible way of winning is to stop bombing brown people and just provide aid to groups engaged in peaceful activities

      Tell it to France and Belgium, who do everything in their power to bring in more Muslims, pay them welfare to stay, and appease any and all of their demands. They still get bombed and shot up.

      • (Score: 2) by Post-Nihilist on Saturday September 17 2016, @04:47AM

        by Post-Nihilist (5672) on Saturday September 17 2016, @04:47AM (#403022)

        Maybe if Gaddafi and Saddam were still keeping the lid over those infuriated islamists, maybe, France would not have been cowardly bombed. And maybe if did not armed a bunch of blood thirsty Afghanis to fight against the Soviets maybe 9/11 would have been an ordinary day. But alas we cannot change the past.... However we could maybe stop seeding our future ennemies, maybe?

        --
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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by zocalo on Thursday September 15 2016, @07:01AM

    by zocalo (302) on Thursday September 15 2016, @07:01AM (#402172)
    Well, it's just an opinion, and you are entitled to your opinion of it. The submitter did say it was a "completely opposite view from the other side" - and it is:

    John Schindler [the author of the piece] is a security expert and former National Security Agency analyst and counterintelligence officer. A specialist in espionage and terrorism, he’s also been a Navy officer and a War College professor. He’s published four books and is on Twitter at @20committee.

    Taken in that light, it's an interesting piece on the kind of arguments that the pro-surveillance establishment are putting forwards to try and forestall the wave of Snowden sympathy and anti-NSA sentiment that Stone's film will probably bring, maintain the status quo of the mass surveillance state without any focus on the actual (and necessary) targets of surveillance, and ideally ensure that the next wave of pork is even larger than the last one. It might be distasteful commenting on it, but if the best rebuttal the public can come up with is "your [sic] stupid and your opinion is wrong" then they've already won, and that's double plus bad.

    --
    UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
    • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Bot on Thursday September 15 2016, @08:15AM

      by Bot (3902) on Thursday September 15 2016, @08:15AM (#402192) Journal

      My opinion is that if a professor and author of 4 books has an argument based on a correlation with one year granularity about things leaked by snowden, ignoring the fact that every half witted reader of spy stories knows what encryption is and what secret services around the world intercept, then Your stupid and your argument is wrong is a proper response.

      A secret service, after a leak, should go mea culpa (BECAUSE YOU ARE A SECRET SERVICE AND DEFECTORS SHOULD BE EXPECTED FROM THE START) and work to minimize the damage, not go mew mew about the leaker.
      Leaker of what. Personally I was not even 18 and the computers were 8 bit, and I learned that guys playing "diplomacy" by mail had an interview with the police because one sent a letter with "I concur on the attack on liverpool" or something like that.

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      • (Score: 2) by Geotti on Thursday September 15 2016, @01:34PM

        by Geotti (1146) on Thursday September 15 2016, @01:34PM (#402254) Journal

        Personally I was not even 18 and the computers were 8 bit, and I learned that guys playing "diplomacy" by mail had an interview with the police because one sent a letter with "I concur on the attack on liverpool" or something like that.

        Maybe, they're just using the situation to win public support for mass surveillance.

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Jeremiah Cornelius on Thursday September 15 2016, @03:33PM

        by Jeremiah Cornelius (2785) on Thursday September 15 2016, @03:33PM (#402315) Journal

        I kicked the figurative, living shit out of Schindler on Twitter. More than once.
        He's an idiot with no ability to either think or deduce. A useful amplifier of jingoisms.

        --
        You're betting on the pantomime horse...
      • (Score: 1) by xvan on Thursday September 15 2016, @05:31PM

        by xvan (2416) on Thursday September 15 2016, @05:31PM (#402373)

        They're not complaining about the leaked information, but the security awarness triggered by the media exposure of the leaked information.

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Bot on Thursday September 15 2016, @05:55PM

          by Bot (3902) on Thursday September 15 2016, @05:55PM (#402387) Journal

          Which seems like a burglar complaining about alarms.

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          Account abandoned.
          • (Score: 1) by boxfetish on Thursday September 15 2016, @08:57PM

            by boxfetish (4831) on Thursday September 15 2016, @08:57PM (#402471)

            More like a burglar complaining about a neighborhood watch, imo.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 15 2016, @05:01PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 15 2016, @05:01PM (#402365)

      It might be distasteful commenting on it, but if the best rebuttal the public can come up with is "your [sic] stupid and your opinion is wrong" then they've already won, and that's double plus bad.

      Read it again. Not "the best rebuttal." But the rebuttal that the piece deserves. A better rebuttal could be written. But in the face of that stupidity, why should one bother?

      Oh, and who has then won? Playing the pronoun game, are we?

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 15 2016, @05:03PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 15 2016, @05:03PM (#402367)

      they should establish a official "whistle blower" department:
      if shit looks like it's going to go south, just deploy a whistle-blower from said department
      and then blame everything on him/her .. then continue with business as usual: violate privacy
      and gobble up massive amounts of tax payer monies?

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Anal Pumpernickel on Thursday September 15 2016, @09:11PM

      by Anal Pumpernickel (776) on Thursday September 15 2016, @09:11PM (#402480)

      but if the best rebuttal the public can come up with is "your [sic] stupid and your opinion is wrong" then they've already won, and that's double plus bad.

      How many times do we need to give detailed responses about how liberty is more important than security, how the surveillance doesn't actually increase security, how the mass surveillance is unconstitutional, and how the government can't even be trusted to conduct mass surveillance on the populace because every single government in history--including the US government--abused its power? How many times does it need to be pointed out that mass surveillance threatens democracy for countless reasons? [gnu.org] When will they shut the fuck up and stop trying to violate our freedoms? Obviously, never. They're dishonest, reprehensible authoritarians and they should be treated with nothing but absolute contempt.

      It's interesting how if 'our side' gives a short and angry response, then we'll somehow lose, but if they keep repeating the same debunked garbage an infinite amount of times, that's fine.