SoylentNews is people
SoylentNews
Submitted via IRC for TheMightyBuzzard
Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/6440589/Date-rape-drink-spiking-an-urban-legend.html
Widespread spiking of drinks with date-rape drugs such as Rohypnol and GHB is an "urban legend" fuelled by young women unwilling to accept they have simply consumed too much alcohol, academics believe. A study of more than 200 students revealed many wrongly blamed the effects of a "bad night out" on date-rape drugs, when they had just drunk excessively.
Many are in "active denial" that drinking large amounts of alcohol can leave them "incoherent and incapacitated", the Kent University researchers concluded. Young women's fears about date-rape drugs are so ingrained that students mistakenly think it is a more important factor in sexual assault than being drunk, taking drugs or walking alone at night.
The study, published in the British Journal of Criminology, found three-quarters of students identified drink spiking as an important risk – more than alcohol or drugs. More than half said they knew someone whose drink had been spiked.
But despite popular beliefs, police have found no evidence that rape victims are commonly drugged with such substances, the researchers said.
Dr Adam Burgess from the university's School of Social Policy, Sociology and Social Research, said: "Young women appear to be displacing their anxieties about the consequences of consuming what is in the bottle on to rumours of what could be put there by someone else.
(Score: 2) by black6host on Tuesday September 20 2016, @09:06PM
This whole sex thing, at that age, is a lot different than it used to be when I was young. Back then it was pretty simple, "wanna bang?", "Yeah". :)
Now, it seems a fence of fear is being promoted. Yeah, I understand that there are abuses but damn, young kids didn't just turn into rapists over a couple of generations. Good thing my attorney drew up some consent papers to be signed as an affidavit of willingness to be witnessed by a notary or JP no more than 5 minutes before the game is on. Jeesh.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 20 2016, @09:09PM
Two words: Enthusiastic Consent.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Tuesday September 20 2016, @09:12PM
Two drunk words: Cellphone recording buzzed intercourse.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 20 2016, @09:17PM
#NotAnymore
(Score: 2) by black6host on Tuesday September 20 2016, @09:16PM
Well, yeah, that was how it was when I was young. And is now as well. For me. However, one can be quite drunk, and quite enthusiastic, and then claim they were not able to consent due to the fact that they were drunk or had their drink spiked. Enthusiastic Consent doesn't help there.
(Score: 3, Informative) by slinches on Tuesday September 20 2016, @09:34PM
Even if both parties are sober and give consent, if one party changes their mind later and claims that they didn't consent, the other's life is ruined (or the complaint is just ignored, depending on the genders). And written consent doesn't count if they're drunk. And who knows if either party is lying about being clean of STDs.
Sex is risky when no one deserves the benefit of the doubt.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 20 2016, @09:32PM
There are lots of different people in this world. Some of them have a fuzzier idea of "consent" than you might. Most of them "at that age" have zero experience with it. Is it any wonder that people make mistakes? Is it any wonder that those that are physically stronger and expected to be more assertive do a lot more damage than they mean to when they make mistakes? And when those people are otherwise important in their communities, such as the football heroes or the sons of local politicians, is it any wonder that they would be protected from their mistakes? These are not new problems; I'll give you that. These problems are older than dirt, really. And it's entirely reasonable to me that you may never have made such a mistake, or known anybody that did. But it does happen, and it never has to.
But let me swing a little bit back from that defense. No, you do not need a signed affidavit. No, you do not need anything formal at all. All you need is to know that the person you are with is happy with what you are doing. But let's back up a bit. You need to know that you are dealing with people who change their minds. People who have different desires and expectations. People in varying levels of lucidity. People. Not prizes. It's not a "score". It's a living person that you are going to have to level with in the morning.
And we need to stop trying to tell this just to ourselves and our young women. Young men need to know how not to make mistakes.
The premise of this article is...likely to get a lot of criticism. But it makes perfect sense to me. Most assailants are making a mistake, not being purposefully predatory. Spiking a drink takes a whole lot of malice aforethought that some people might engage in, but it can't be responsible for the majority of assaults.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by jdavidb on Tuesday September 20 2016, @10:13PM
And we need to stop trying to tell this just to ourselves and our young women. Young men need to know how not to make mistakes.
I'm teaching my children how I got married as a virgin. Everyone scoffs, but my dad raised me that way somehow, and my wife's parents raised her that way somehow, and it worked great for us. Maybe it's the programming that goes with our unique genetic code or something and wouldn't work elsewhere, but I would expect it will work about as well with our kids as it did for us. We're not a part of the culture this article is about, and never were. Which brings me to ...
Many are in "active denial" that drinking large amounts of alcohol can leave them "incoherent and incapacitated"
There's so much heat rather than light on both sides of this issue, but I was amazed when I read a woman explain that telling young girls not to go to bars or drinking parties was "blaming the victim." She went on to proudly assert her right to go to bars and drinking parties. And while I'd agree with her right, I'm still going to teach my girls and boys not to go to bars and drinking parties. I never did. It's not a part of my culture. And by not being a part of that culture and not engaging in those activities, I dramatically increased my chances of growing to adulthood unscathed, and my girls will increase their chances even more. The cost of keeping people safe goes way up in certain circumstances, and while I agree that people ought to be kept safe, I don't agree we should all have to bear that cost.
ⓋⒶ☮✝🕊 Secession is the right of all sentient beings
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 20 2016, @11:08PM
Or you will scare the bejesus out of your kids and they will grow up to be social misfits...
Oh wait, who am I replying to again??
(Score: 3, Insightful) by jdavidb on Wednesday September 21 2016, @03:10PM
Or you will scare the bejesus out of your kids and they will grow up to be social misfits...
I'm quite happy not fitting into most of society. I fit in quite well in my culture, which is not the culture of the larger society (which is a wreck, if you haven't noticed). I'm sure many people here can identify with being glad that they don't fit into the larger culture.
And I don't remember ever being scared growing up. Other than from abusers in school, I suppose.
ⓋⒶ☮✝🕊 Secession is the right of all sentient beings
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 20 2016, @11:17PM
I was amazed when I read a woman explain that telling young girls not to go to bars or drinking parties was "blaming the victim." She went on to proudly assert her right to go to bars and drinking parties. And while I'd agree with her right,
Its her right to go with the expectation of not being raped. Just like it is her right not to wear a burka with the expectation of not being raped. I'm not being facetious, conservative islam covers their women because they believe that men lack self control so the best way to avoid problems is to make sure women don't give men the opportunity to misbehave. It works, muslim countries have much lower rates of all kinds of crimes but it is an unstable point of equilibrium because men are so used to the expectation that they are animals that when given the opportunity to behave like an animal it is like they have a sort of internal mental "permission" to do it. Same thing with going to a drinking party if society assumes that women who drink too much are probably going to get raped then a man who finds himself with a drunk women is going to have a sort of internal mental permission to assault her.
(Score: 4, Informative) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Tuesday September 20 2016, @11:48PM
> It works, muslim countries have much lower rates of all kinds of crimes
Citation needed. My understanding was that the inverse is true: That the more sexually repressed a society and its womenfolk, the higher the frequency of sexual violence / rape. Of course getting good stats is hard because of reporting bias, but that should bias the figures in favour of the repressed countries[1]. Instead the data seems to back up my assertion above - conservative Islam is not doing anybody any favours.
http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/28803/title/Porn--Good-for-us-/ [the-scientist.com]
[1] A woman is far more likely to report a rape in the west, because, well... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23381448 [bbc.co.uk]
(Score: 2) by Immerman on Wednesday September 21 2016, @12:11AM
I was going to say the same. And the bias is going to be even more dramatic in cultures that view being a rape victim as infidelity/promiscuity for which the punishment lies somewhere between complete social exile and death.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 21 2016, @12:39AM
> Citation needed.
Hard to find due to differences in local definitions. But it is important to compare like to like.
So comparing a 1st world country to a 3rd world country, regardless of religion, isn't valid.
However the conservative practice of women not being alone with a man who is not family makes "date rape" practically impossible. That still leaves other forms of assault like spousal rape and incest. But those fit within the "men are animals" mindset.
(Score: 2) by Joe Desertrat on Wednesday September 21 2016, @09:55PM
However the conservative practice of women not being alone with a man who is not family makes "date rape" practically impossible.
So women should all stay home with their families until their parents marry them off or something? Jeez. There is no reason women should have to fear going out in public, at least no more so than men do. Maybe these "conservative practices" should include some sort of chivalry where men act honorably towards women and each other. The idea that women need to surrender rights to be protected in ordinary social situations is the idea that is wrong.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by khallow on Wednesday September 21 2016, @01:11AM
Its her right to go with the expectation of not being raped.
What does "right" mean in that situation? She has a right to expect whatever she wants to expect. If she wants to expect unicorns when she clicks her shoes three times, I don't see the state trying to jail her for that (though such an expectation might correlate with mental illnesses that a state would involuntarily commit someone for). But if you're trying to claim that someone should be able to do dumb shit without the risk of dumb consequences, then I think you fail to understand the role of a right.
Same thing with going to a drinking party if society assumes that women who drink too much are probably going to get raped then a man who finds himself with a drunk women is going to have a sort of internal mental permission to assault her.
So did the man who has "internal mental permission" to rape grant the woman the right to have an expectation of not being raped? I'm not seeing it, but then I'm not seeing the relevance either. Expectations are flimsy things and reality routinely has a habit of not meeting them.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 21 2016, @01:42AM
> But if you're trying to claim that someone should be able to do dumb shit without the risk of dumb consequences, then I think you fail to understand the role of a right.
Its her right not to be raped. Are you autistic or something? This is not complicated. You don't get to rape someone no matter what their mental state is, capiche?
> I'm not seeing it,
Probably because you are autistic and don't have clue 1 about human psychology.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by khallow on Wednesday September 21 2016, @02:01AM
Its her right not to be raped.
No, it was said earlier she had a right to expect not to be raped. That's very different.
Probably because you are autistic and don't have clue 1 about human psychology.
Let us note that is irrelevant noise. Society's ability to protect women from rapists is limited and highly dependent on women making good decisions to protect themselves. It is irresponsible to encourage people to make bad decisions which society can't effective protect against. This claim of a right to have unreasonable expectations when one engages in highly risky behavior is one such irresponsibility. And let's face it, who gets punished when such a "right" is violated? Why it's the person exercising the "right". That alone tells you all you need to know about whether this is a right or not.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 21 2016, @03:24AM
The Internet psychologists have already diagnosed you with autism, thereby instantly and forever defeating you. Continuing to argue with them will only result in even more Internet psychology.
(Score: 2) by jdavidb on Wednesday September 21 2016, @03:14PM
Its her right not to be raped. Are you autistic or something? This is not complicated. You don't get to rape someone no matter what their mental state is, capiche?
I'm pretty sure that nearly nobody disputes that. What I can't see is the connection from my teaching my daughter "There are a lot of good reasons to never go to a bar or a drinking party. I never did, and I am very happy for it, and my life is very happy and fulfilling and I believe that the addition of bars and drinking parties in my past or my present would subtract from that. In addition, you have an extra factor that I didn't have: if you avoid bars and drinking parties, you dramatically lower your chances of being raped. I certainly don't believe that women who drink deserve to be raped, but I don't think drinking is a good idea, and you can be much safer if you avoid this sort of thing like your mother and I always have" - not sure how teaching that to my daughters means that I somehow believe men have the right to rape women.
ⓋⒶ☮✝🕊 Secession is the right of all sentient beings
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 21 2016, @08:51AM
Sure. And it is my right to walk through any part of the city at any time with the expectation of not being robbed. And yet, if I'm walking alone at night through areas of the city known to be unsafe, I have to take some of the blame when getting robbed. Note that this does not lessen the guilt of the robber, nor does it mean there should not be made any effort to prevent robberies and catch robbers also in those areas.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by CirclesInSand on Wednesday September 21 2016, @08:57AM
There's no such thing as "some of the blame". Blame isn't a pie that you divide up among people.
People screw up. Just because you can point the finger at someone else making a mistake or a malicious choice doesn't mean that you haven't also made a mistake or a malicious choice.
There is no conservation of blame. Blame is merely pointing out when someone screwed up. In western society, we like to pretend that blame is a hot potato that only 1 person can hold. That's incredibly stupid.
(Score: 2) by Geezer on Wednesday September 21 2016, @11:32AM
Wanna bet? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causation_(law) [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Wednesday September 21 2016, @02:16PM
So you're basically agreeing with him but disagreeing with his terminology.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2) by jdavidb on Wednesday September 21 2016, @03:17PM
Sure. And it is my right to walk through any part of the city at any time with the expectation of not being robbed. And yet, if I'm walking alone at night through areas of the city known to be unsafe, I have to take some of the blame when getting robbed. Note that this does not lessen the guilt of the robber, nor does it mean there should not be made any effort to prevent robberies and catch robbers also in those areas.
I would never word that with the phrase "I have to take some of the blame." In the scenario you describe, the blame is 100% on the robber. However, you could have taken steps to keep yourself safer. That doesn't mean the blame for the robbery is yours.
ⓋⒶ☮✝🕊 Secession is the right of all sentient beings
(Score: 2) by jdavidb on Wednesday September 21 2016, @03:11PM
I was amazed when I read a woman explain that telling young girls not to go to bars or drinking parties was "blaming the victim." She went on to proudly assert her right to go to bars and drinking parties. And while I'd agree with her right,
Its her right to go with the expectation of not being raped. Just like it is her right not to wear a burka with the expectation of not being raped. I'm not being facetious, conservative islam covers their women because they believe that men lack self control so the best way to avoid problems is to make sure women don't give men the opportunity to misbehave. It works, muslim countries have much lower rates of all kinds of crimes but it is an unstable point of equilibrium because men are so used to the expectation that they are animals that when given the opportunity to behave like an animal it is like they have a sort of internal mental "permission" to do it. Same thing with going to a drinking party if society assumes that women who drink too much are probably going to get raped then a man who finds himself with a drunk women is going to have a sort of internal mental permission to assault her.
None of that changes my conviction that I'm much better off for never having been a part of a culture of bars and drinking parties and my desire to pass that on to my children.
ⓋⒶ☮✝🕊 Secession is the right of all sentient beings
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 22 2016, @05:44PM
(Score: 2) by jdavidb on Thursday September 22 2016, @06:15PM
ⓋⒶ☮✝🕊 Secession is the right of all sentient beings
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 22 2016, @08:18PM
Except for alcohol though, right? (Not trying to get a rise out of you, just maybe a grin.)
(Score: 3, Touché) by jdavidb on Thursday September 22 2016, @08:54PM
Grinning because that's a good question. Alcohol is explicitly mentioned in the Bible as something that God created to make people happy. It's hard to argue with that, though apparently many people do. Of course there are plenty of warnings about not abusing it. Like anything in this world, it was created good, but we can choose to use good things in ways that will lead to negative consequences.
I consider marijuana to be in exactly the same category.
ⓋⒶ☮✝🕊 Secession is the right of all sentient beings
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 23 2016, @02:05AM
(Score: 2) by jdavidb on Friday September 23 2016, @03:36AM
ⓋⒶ☮✝🕊 Secession is the right of all sentient beings