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posted by martyb on Tuesday October 04 2016, @12:04PM   Printer-friendly
from the I-see-what-they-did-there dept.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) is notoriously secretive about the inner workings of its ruling hierarchy, the First Presidency and Quorum of Twelve Apostles. With an estimated annual income in the billions and assets in the tens of billions, the church does not release financial statements to its members or the general public. The meetings and decision-making processes of the Mormon leaders are similarly undisclosed.

That changed Sunday when a group called Mormon Leaks posted more than a dozen videos to YouTube, containing briefing sessions with the hierarchy. The briefings were apparently recorded "live" and include candid comments and discussion from the apostles in attendance. The leak appeared to be timed to coincide with the church's semi-annual conference that took place over the weekend.

Ironically, one of the briefings discusses WikiLeaks and the possibility of a similar leak targeting the church, but the apostles shown in the video appear to more concerned about Chelsea (nee Bradley) Manning's sexuality than they are about threats to their own secrets.

One briefing that is particularly troubling was given by a former U.S. senator from Oregon, Gordon H. Smith. Smith, a member of the church, admits that he values obedience to the hierarchy and loyalty to the church more than he does his office. He also describes using his office and staff to gain political favors for the church, and justifies the Iraq War by claiming that it will allow Mormon missionaries access to Middle Eastern nations. At one point (around the 26 minute mark), Smith possibly reveals classified information to the group, or at least his willingness to do so.

The videos appear to come from the same whistle blower who leaked a trove of church documents on-line about a week ago. Those documents are here and the leaker has announced that many more are coming.


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  • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 04 2016, @05:58PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 04 2016, @05:58PM (#410142)

    Sure...

    Education, as long as it doesn't make you doubt Mormonism's bizarre foundation myths. (Mormons are young-Earth creationists [reddit.com] who believe in archaeological fringe theories [wikipedia.org] about the population of the Americas.)

    Honesty, as long as the church's interests are protected [i4m.com]. (Note the use of the term "church broke" [wheatandtares.org] in the Sen. Smith video.)

    Work, as long as the church gets the benefit. Pay your 10% fire insurance [irr.org], skip time with your family while you do church callings, use yourself up in the service of the Lord by ignoring your grandkids to do senior missionary work for the church.

    Service and kindness, as long as the church gets the credit [thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com].

    No one doubts that individual Mormons are good people. Most people are good. The problem is the secretive group at the top, hell-bent on protecting the church's image and their own positions.

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  • (Score: 1) by lcall on Tuesday October 04 2016, @07:19PM

    by lcall (4611) on Tuesday October 04 2016, @07:19PM (#410230)

    "The problem is the secretive group at the top, hell-bent on protecting the church's image and their own positions."

    I have met them, interacted with them somewhat, seen in a degree how they live. I know many others really well who have interacted with them more than I have. What you say is untrue. They put in many unselfish hours for the benefit of others, into their old age, getting in many cases essentially no retirement rest. They could have made a lot more money and enjoyed a more selfish life if they had not accepted these assignments, which as far as I can tell they did not seek. One in particular that I know (from the quorums of 70) isn't even well-off financially and his relatives help him sometimes (though most are well-off, from their prior careers, like one was a famous heart surgeon, so he's OK, another ran his own import/export business and left it, others give up law practices or other careers; one, not a top leader, but with heavy church responsibilities and a wonderful family, that I knew quite well was a marine colonel before we met, another an air force general, etc). For them to give up their positions and simply retire would mean a tremendous comparative rest from a lot of stressful, hard work. I've seen enough to have no hesitation about that. One can't nominate oneself for these assignments, but accept them if they come.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 04 2016, @07:50PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 04 2016, @07:50PM (#410255)

      The Quorum of Seventy doesn't have nearly the perks or power of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (a bit of a misnomer; there are currently fifteen of them).

      It's not about money: it's about the power and adulation of adoring crowds. These men are unquestioned and not held to any account. They have all received their second anointing, allowing them to commit any sin (save the shedding of innocent blood, which is defined to mean betraying the church) and still get into the highest halls of Mormon heaven. In fact, because you haven't had the second anointing, you will be in a lower spot than they will.

      "Lying for the Lord" is second nature to these "general authorities". While I'm sure they've been nice to you (if you've really met any of them), they have historically run roughshod over the church membership and everyone else they encounter. Read D. Michael Quinn's The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power for some great scholarship on the topic.

      I know you'll disagree, but you're deep in a cult so seeing the cult leaders for what they are will be difficult for you.

      • (Score: 1) by lcall on Tuesday October 04 2016, @08:11PM

        by lcall (4611) on Tuesday October 04 2016, @08:11PM (#410277)

        Nah, good thing I don't worship them. The stuff you say sounds weird and foreign to me. Like, the 2nd anointing bit isn't a worry because if I keep the commandments (which is up to just me), it's then between me and God, and I trust he will get it right, even if he delegates -- he will see that it is right. In fact scripture (D&C 76) says everyone who makes it is then equal (the details on definition of equal I don't know but it's good enough for me). Call me a cultist, we can still be friends.

        • (Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 04 2016, @08:15PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 04 2016, @08:15PM (#410282)

          All Mormons are equal, but some Mormons are more equal than others.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 05 2016, @03:03AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 05 2016, @03:03AM (#410479)

            It can happen when allow overloading of the equality operator. Problems like this may be why some language designers do not allow operator overloading.

    • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Tuesday October 04 2016, @09:21PM

      by Gaaark (41) on Tuesday October 04 2016, @09:21PM (#410335) Journal

      I went with a friend to his church camp one time (reorganised church of Jesus Christ of latter-day freaking saints)(off-shoot of the Mormons): all was good.
      They all wanted to help their fellow man, learned it is better to buy a sandwich for a homeles person than to give them money, etc.

      All well and good.

      Supper came, then clean up time.
      Washing dishes got lots of volunteers because it is fun: singing, tossing dishes back and forth, fun!
      Clearing the table, not so fun, but got volunteers.

      Cleaning toilets?
      You could hear the fucking crickets!!!
      No hand went up. So I volunteered: the leader (minister???) looked all over calling for volunteers so that he didn't have to call on me.

      I freaking embarrassed them into picking people who hadn't volunteered just so they didn't have to pick me.

      PATHETIC!!!

      Organised religion only draws the weak and the people who need to belong.

      If you truly believe n a god, believe. Just don't rely on there to tell you what to think.

      --
      --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
      • (Score: 1) by lcall on Tuesday October 04 2016, @09:52PM

        by lcall (4611) on Tuesday October 04 2016, @09:52PM (#410361)

        As individuals, we are all definitely a work in progress, and need to keep trying to become better. That is what we are taught to do; the individual results are ... individual of course.

        • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Tuesday October 04 2016, @11:18PM

          by Gaaark (41) on Tuesday October 04 2016, @11:18PM (#410396) Journal

          And in that vein, why believe what you are taught by 'leadership'. Why not just commune with God yourself and let HIM tell you what to believe and how to act?

          Why the need to be Christian or Buddhist or Removable organised Eiffel of tomato (or is it tomato??) Day saints or.....

          Why not just be "I talk to God: I try to be good."

          Too much of Organised Church is "believe how and what we say, and give us money/power".

          --
          --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
          • (Score: 1) by lcall on Tuesday October 04 2016, @11:27PM

            by lcall (4611) on Tuesday October 04 2016, @11:27PM (#410399)

            Excellent question. He has an official organization on the earth to keep the doctrines pure & correct, to administer the ordinances like baptism with real authority under His direction, to help us all be stronger together than we could be separately, to teach us His laws, to keep records, to help us in so many ways that we simply couldn't or wouldn't do as individuals. Through many centuries, like the Bible shows, He has sent His representatives out to teach truth, but the people at various times have repeatedly rejected it as not agreeing with their own desires, so He later again sends prophets to give them whatever they are willing to receive at that point in time. We can do much more together, and He has commanded us to do it. Like serving the less fortunate. I'm not saying I'm remotely close to perfect or anything, but the Church really works at this. Truth isn't whatever each of us might prefer it to be, and one person couldn't teach the whole world. We can also try to help each other through the various kinds of hard times of life, what one person has called "to love each other in an organized way".

            Importantly: we believe that families can be together as families forever, through the ordinances of the gospel. I can't go write valid traffic tickets just because I feel like it, because I don't have the authority. Similarly to the ordinances of God: This sealing of families as eternal units can only be done by proper authority, in the place and manner that the Lord has specified, to be valid. Of course, then we have to strive always to keep the commandments, or we could lose the opportunity to be in that family forever.

            I hope that helps.

            • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Wednesday October 05 2016, @02:08AM

              by Gaaark (41) on Wednesday October 05 2016, @02:08AM (#410461) Journal

              One last:

              How did HE let it get to Hillary vs. Trump???
              :)

              As Depeche Mode say:
              "I don't want to start any blasphemous rumours
              But I think that God's got a sick sense of humor
              And when I die I expect to find Him laughing"

              --
              --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
              • (Score: 1) by lcall on Wednesday October 05 2016, @01:42PM

                by lcall (4611) on Wednesday October 05 2016, @01:42PM (#410582)

                I appreciate your sense of humor on that one. I'm probably going to vote for Evan McMullin (not because he's a Mormon but because he's makes the most sense of any I can find -- even the other 3rd-party candidates sound dangerous on some of their points, like Johnson's lack of knowledge on foreign policy). If you'll forgive my taking your question literally though, I think the reason it got to this point is 1) there are many prophecies that things will continue getting messier in the last days before His 2nd coming, so it's no surprise really -- expect more chaos and disasters, including some astounding ones; safety comes in repentance and following the prophet, just as in the days of Noah, and 2) He lets us choose, even badly until we get to the point of no return (see extended thread in another part of this discussion), I think so we have a chance to learn, consider our ways, and change by our freely given agency or our will, before it is really too late. I appreciate your questions.

            • (Score: 2) by arslan on Wednesday October 05 2016, @02:17AM

              by arslan (3462) on Wednesday October 05 2016, @02:17AM (#410465)

              I don't know about that. Any institution managed by humans are corruptible. Especially ones with "secret" top level operations. The devil isn't going to be the ugly self-centered mofo with a bad attitude and bad haircut, it will be the charitable charming well mannered guy in the suit.

              As someone else pointed out, it isn't about money, its about power. Some folks would do anything to covet it, especially once they're addicted, including giving up their retirement fund and well-earned rest to maintain or improve the status quo.

              Don't get me wrong, I'm not painting this in absolute terms, so I'm sure there's portion of these folks who are genuine. The problem is though, without transparency, you can't really sort them out from the devil-in-disguise. So why would you want to be part of such a scheme?

              If your faith is between you, yourself and your deity, go ahead with that but why participate in an organization that values its structural integrity above all else. Doesn't that smell wrong? Do you really think come judgement day that just because you have no direct part (or choose to be oblivious to it) in a power scheme which contributes to a number of sins makes you guiltless?

              • (Score: 1) by lcall on Wednesday October 05 2016, @02:40PM

                by lcall (4611) on Wednesday October 05 2016, @02:40PM (#410618)

                You have well expressed a *really* important question, IMO, that some others have been asking too (and I didn't think then of what to say). I think I can see now. I strongly sympathize with your line of thinking. Like with the old Oliver "Ollie" North controversy from the Reagan years -- even though some called him a patriot for supporting some partisans while hiding information, my answer is that sunlight kills germs, and without openness, there's no accountability, and in a representative government, that kind of hiding just isn't safe to the system.

                The deal here for me in my Church is, do I trust that our President Thomas S. Monson is a prophet of God, or not? And why would I, either way? I simply don't have the information to answer in detail about the financial arrangements, so do I trust the leaders? That kind of trust has led to bad problems so *very* many times in history, that the examples are tiring to think about. So here are some thoughts on the logical sequence:

                1) if the Book of Mormon isn't what it says it is, what is it and how did a work of such complexity and internal consistency get produced by a young person without formal education at the time, and with so many credible witnesses to what he was saying and doing and the state of his life at the time (not just the 3 and the 8, but many more in the early families, making observations in their journals etc)? And if the book is what it says it is, that means Joseph Smith was a prophet, a representative of God speaking on behalf of God like the ancient prophets did, and his successors are too, if they truly are his successors, and then logically it follows that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's official, authoritative organization on the earth. (Then there's the Book's influence on my personally, with a lifetime of study, but that's another topic.)

                2) If #1 is true (and I have concluded after long searching that it is--membership is just too much work if it weren't), then how much accountability and transparency should there be? Well, if they are speaking for God, and it is not a representative democracy (I believe it is not, no more than Jeremiah in the Bible was elected by the people, rather he was sent by God), then that changes the whole picture. It is now for me to learn, and not to direct. To question is OK, as the apostles have taught repeatedly, because that is how we learn and act as individual agents for ourselves. But (in my wording) we have to remember who makes the rules, and it is God, not me.

                3) What are their fruits? Examples like the Jamestown poisoning don't seem to fit here. Other examples have the signs of corruption (the purchasing of indulgences, leaders living large, building palaces to themselves). I'm not seeing them; nobody lives in the temples and they are closed on Sundays but there is work done there for doctrinal reasons mentioned in the Bible as well as modern revelation. Anyone can tour new ones before dedication to see what they are for, and I see that nobody is "living large" inside. Same for the meetinghouses. If any of the leaders is living large it is with money they earned in their own previous private careers, and some were quite successful. Most of them don't even get paid as far as I know, but I could be wrong, especially for the ones that used to be Church employees so didn't make a fortune their own career. What are the actual results of their doings? One might have to get to know some Mormons to know, realizing that we are all human individuals, but hopefully there's a trend, or see the humanitarian work, etc. Jesus said by their fruits ye shall know them. There will always be detractors, you have to look beyond that. They travel on weekends with heavy meetings schedules. I've known people who work in Church security and travel with them, and they work really hard, with no monetary rewards. I spoke briefly and privately with one of the twelve during a set of those weekend meetings where I lived at the time, and he had his security guy beside him, and probably tired (getting old) but was really nice to me even though I was kind of a nerd or a jerk at the time. So I have seen enough myself to dismiss all the "these guys are evil perverts out looking to cushion their own soft & corrupt lives" messages as nonsense. I've known others who travel with them, I've been at the meetings, and this stuff about "corrupt perverts" is complete nonsense. They found out that one of the 70 was consistently embellishing his storytelling ... and he was out of office in a flash. I lived in a small city with that guy's nieces and nephews, and they were all straight-laced, quiet, hard-working no-nonsense people, not rich. (As a young boy I got a job delivering for their twice-weekly local newspaper business, saw the printing and ad operations, they ran it frugally to support their large family. Years later one of their daughters was my high-schoolmate. I'll disclose here that my buddy and I soaped all their car windows one winter night as a prank on our friend; sometimes I was a stupid jerk back then.)

                4) Business things, from what I can gather: For an example, the recent City Creek development in downtown Salt Lake was really expensive, funded by church businesses (not tithing, they said), and they said the purpose was to preserve the environment around the temple, which when one sees the history of the area makes total sense--the downtown could have had bad urban decay over time, and that temple needs to be in a good environment for a list of reasons. So where did those billions of $ to build City Creek come from? The Church has businesses. Good thing, that time at least. Also the bookstore chain -- it is a good influence, plain and simple, for us as members. And nobody has to buy there, the actual needed Church materials are sold very cheaply to anyone, at cost (per http://store.lds.org). [store.lds.org)] The ranches in Florida?--those help feed people, and I've worked as a volunteer in 2 of the canneries that work produce from the farms (it felt odd to be shoveling frozen meat onto a conveyor belt; canning peaches is nicer). And I've seen the process of distributing that food from large warehouses, to the poor, for free. The media properties?--I don't really know but I'm glad the Church will be able to have some voice in these corrupt, weird times we live in. And I see the results of what they do. I've been around enough that I think I'd have seen corruption, and I see the opposite, everywhere I look. I've seen how & when they hire and let go. They are always finding ways to help us as members see that we need to be kinder, better people. Anyone can read the conference talks for decades (online since at least the 70's, much online detailed historical info, essentially everything they can find to publish, goes back to the 1820's) and see the kind of influence they are trying to have.

                Now anyone can certainly see it differently, and there are those who claim they've seen the corruption, but my eyes say otherwise and I'm getting older; I think the accusers have an agenda against the organization, but I'm really not their judge. But it really works for me, and I read a lot of history, from Genghis Khan to Hitler, Mother Theresa and that german doctor...Albert Schweitzer.

                If God speaks, it's my job to pay attention. If He doesn't, or if He is arbitrary & can't be trusted to act in our best interest at all times, or if God doesn't exist, it's a whole different deal.

                The Book of Mormon is the key, for me (again, free online). Yes there are bad apples in any org of almost 17 million, but I really believe the top 15, when they speak unitedly, will be removed by God before they go amiss, because He has said the Kingdom won't fail this time around, preparatory to His 2nd coming. It's OK to ask hard questions. Once we know we have a reason to trust (and each person has to decide for themselves) , then it is good to act on that trust, because God is perfect and trustworthy. Otherwise we simply couldn't believe what He says, like in the sermon on the mount.

                That's a long answer, but that's where I am.