SoylentNews is people
SoylentNews
Arthur T Knackerbracket has found the following story:
More than 25 previously unpublished "Dead Sea Scroll" fragments, dating back 2,000 years and holding text from the Hebrew Bible, have been brought to light, their contents detailed in two new books.
The various scroll fragments record parts of the books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Samuel, Ruth, Kings, Micah, Nehemiah, Jeremiah, Joel, Joshua, Judges, Proverbs, Numbers, Psalms, Ezekiel and Jonah. The Qumran caves ― where the Dead Sea Scrolls were first discovered ― had yet to yield any fragments from the Book of Nehemiah; if this newly revealed fragment is authenticated it would be the first.
Scholars have expressed concerns that some of the fragments are forgeries. [See Photos of the Dead Sea Scrolls Fragments]
These 25 newly published fragments are just the tip of the iceberg. A scholar told Live Science that around 70 newly discovered fragments have appeared on the antiquities market since 2002. Additionally, the cabinet minister in charge of the Israel Antiquities Authority (IAA), along with a number of scholars, believes that there are undiscovered scrolls that are being found by looters in caves in the Judean Desert. The IAA is sponsoring a new series of scientific surveys and excavations to find these scrolls before looters do.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 11 2016, @06:46PM
Just for giggles, replace bible, thorah, qu'ran,.... with "Harry Potter" or your favorite work of fiction and re-read the sentence. Suddenly the true value and importance of it all becomes apparent.
Suddenly these 'scholars' show their true worth and contributions to society.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 11 2016, @07:01PM
Name one other equal written work (e.g. before the advent of the Internet and modern mechanized printing) with one-tenth the distribution and human investment in terms of work and preservation effort than that expended on the collection of works that make up the Bible.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 11 2016, @07:08PM
Euclid's Elements [wikipedia.org]?
Also, it's not because lots of energy has been spent on it already that it is valuable. We've spent multiple hundreds of thousands of hours on astrology and it's rubbish as well. It just means that lots of energy has been spent on it and that's all. (Some of that is because if you questioned it, you were be treated to a little chat with some folks you'd never expect from Spain [youtube.com])
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 12 2016, @03:27AM
But games are what we live for. Didn't we collectively waste over a billion hours on Angry Birds? Pokemon Go?
At least the bible (and a few other ancient works of literature) had an arguably measurable impact on the development of western culture. Knowing your history is valuable. Killing screen pixels with other screen pixels, not so much.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 12 2016, @08:15AM
At least the bible (and a few other ancient works of literature) had an arguably measurable impact on the development of western culture.
Agreed, but whether that was for the better or the worse, I think you and I will have a difference of opinion there. (hint: I think its impact was for the worse)
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 11 2016, @07:08PM
Having a book shoved at you at the business end of a sword/gun does not a great publication history make. At least from a PR standpoint. Does the counter roll backwards when I burn them?
I just can't wait for the new "hidden truths" in the Dead Sea scrolls to justify torturing, killing, and enslaving people. How did that person used to call the god of those works? A genocide fairy? Seems to check out.
(Score: 2) by nukkel on Tuesday October 11 2016, @07:19PM
Just what I was thinking ... great, new fuel for religious zealots.
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Tuesday October 11 2016, @09:12PM
Having a book shoved at you at the business end of a sword/gun does not a great publication history make. At least from a PR standpoint. Does the counter roll backwards when I burn them?
I just can't wait for the new "hidden truths" in the Dead Sea scrolls to justify torturing, killing, and enslaving people. How did that person used to call the god of those works? A genocide fairy? Seems to check out.
Given that Judaism forbids proselytizing and makes conversion quite difficult, no one is going to be shoving a book "at you at the business end of a sword/gun."
Unless you're talking about Christianity. Which ignores most of what's referred to as the "Hebrew Bible" anyway.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 12 2016, @01:56PM
Ah, you're right. I was thinking of Christianity. (And let's not forget Islam since it has the same brain damage.) The Jews seem happy mutilating our genitals at birth and then keeping to themselves.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by ledow on Tuesday October 11 2016, @07:39PM
Aesop's Fables.
Predates the Bible by several hundred years.
I guarantee you that you've read and heard of dozens of the stories in there, or their derivatives.
Don't believe that the Bible is special just because lots of people believe it is.
It's nowhere near the oldest, not even close to being the most accurate or reliable under historical analysis, and is a highly selective edit of a MUCH larger work that has just as much providence in it but contradicts the main beliefs.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 11 2016, @07:46PM
For those interested, I'll leave this right here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesop's_Fables#List_of_some_fables_by_Aesop [wikipedia.org]
As OP points out, there are indeed many that you'll recognize...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 12 2016, @02:18AM
> Don't believe that the Bible is special just because lots of people believe it is.
Why not? If a lot of people "believe" in it, that means its stood the test of time.
The underlying ambition of religions far exceed the mundane question of the supernatural. They try to locate the tenets of a good life, of a wise life, of a kind life. They are interrogating the greatest themes. The important parts of religion are those that preach human life is quite difficult and that we are going to need a lot of assistance, a lot of guidance. And what religious life is trying to do is to provide us with tools for how to keep being the best version of ourselves.
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Wednesday October 12 2016, @06:21AM
Why not? If a lot of people "believe" in it, that means its stood the test of time.
Oh, you poor sorry example of humanity! Of course it means no such thing, since a lot of people can be complete morons for unbelievably long periods of time. That whole thing about stepping on a crack, and causing Donald Trump to grab somebody by the Holy Grail, how long did it take before that was debunked? Huh? Oh, you still believe that? Point made.
(Score: 2) by ledow on Wednesday October 12 2016, @07:07AM
A lot of people believe in astrology.
A lot of people believe the Sun goes around the Earth (seriously, not even joking, even in this day and age - and that's without the technicality that we believe the Earth goes around the Sun when they both orbit a common centre of gravity).
A lot of people believe in lucky streaks.
A lot of people believe in ghosts.
A lot of people believe that if you're nice to people, they'll be nice to you.
Just because a lot of people believe it, does not mean it's correct.
Now, if you preached values at me - not stealing, not killing, etc. then we'd be on the same page. But when you do it because some book said so, or because you think you'll be punished by a supernatural entity if you don't stick to those values, then we have a silly problem again. It's like a child being rewarded for following the playground rules while the teacher is there, arms folded, watching over them. And I'm afraid EVERY SINGLE Christian - and other religions but we're just talking about one here - I've ever met breaks an enormous number of rules they are saying they abide by. From worshipping graven idols (one of the commandments! Whether little men on crosses, or giant ones in churches), or eating pork, it quickly descends into an interpretation where THEY are obviously given the freedom to bend the rules, but nobody else is. And they like to reinforce this to you constantly, often against your will. Like here. The discussion was "is the Bible a particularly special document historically?" not the values of the Christian ethos.
Without getting into philosophical debate, the Bible is special because people think it is. Historically, it's not that significant in terms of age, accuracy or any other factor. And by any other metric you can argue (popularity), Harry Potter does better. In terms of citations, the Bible might win but that's about it. And that's a popularity contest.
If TV or the US election debate teaches you anything, it's that popularity is completely non-reflective of any kind of quality or special attribute.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 12 2016, @06:39PM
> A lot of people believe in astrology.
And you know what? Astrology works. I don't mean it predicts the future. It helps people see themselves. It is a form of counseling as all "fortune telling" is. People who believe in astrology talk to an astrologer who listens to them and helps them hear themselves. Cynics call it cold-reading. And sure, there are scam artists who are out to milk the gullible. But most astrologers aren't getting rich tricking their clients, they are just living normal lives with the equivalent of low-paying but chill job.
> A lot of people believe that if you're nice to people, they'll be nice to you.
A lot of people know that if you are shitty to people they'll be shitty to you. There really isn't any other choice if you want to get along with people.
> I've ever met breaks an enormous number of rules they are saying they abide by
Oh so you are one of those atheists. You think that in order to be religious you gotta be a fundamentalist. You aren't any smarter than the taliban. Grow up child.
BTW, I plagiarized that post, the one you are responding to. Its from a prominent atheist. You've got a lot to learn about how religion actually works. Hint: Stop listening to other mental midgets like dawkins and bill maher.
(Score: 2) by ledow on Thursday October 13 2016, @01:25PM
"And you know what? Astrology works. I don't mean it predicts the future. It helps people see themselves. It is a form of counseling as all "fortune telling" is. People who believe in astrology talk to an astrologer who listens to them and helps them hear themselves. Cynics call it cold-reading. And sure, there are scam artists who are out to milk the gullible. But most astrologers aren't getting rich tricking their clients, they are just living normal lives with the equivalent of low-paying but chill job."
Hippie rubbish. If you want to make someone feel better, don't tell them it's "in the stars" that their life is how it is. Astrology is 100% incorrect. Fortune-telling is 100% incorrect. If people want some form of therapy, amateur or otherwise, go to someone who marks themselves as a therapist, not a Tarot reader or astrologist. Nobody is saying placebo, or even positive reinforcement from a stranger, is wrong. In fact, the opposite, it's the cheapest method of healing there is. But ASTROLOGY is bollocks.
> A lot of people believe that if you're nice to people, they'll be nice to you.
"A lot of people know that if you are shitty to people they'll be shitty to you. There really isn't any other choice if you want to get along with people."
Flipping what I said to the negative is your error here. Be shitty, get shitty back. Be nice, get nice back is NOT true. Sorry, but it just isn't. Customer service, for instance. Though sensible people reciprocate, that it's a given isn't. Or no charity box would ever be stolen or charity case defrauded.
> I've ever met breaks an enormous number of rules they are saying they abide by
"Oh so you are one of those atheists. You think that in order to be religious you gotta be a fundamentalist. You aren't any smarter than the taliban. Grow up child.
BTW, I plagiarized that post, the one you are responding to. Its from a prominent atheist. You've got a lot to learn about how religion actually works. Hint: Stop listening to other mental midgets like dawkins and bill maher."
Hey, categorise all athiests the same and then slip in some extremist groups too... well done! That's showing tolerance!
I'm an agnostic atheist (can't prove it, can't care enough to bother) that says that if you're going to impose rules on others, you need to abide by them. Therefore, you either believe in ONLY certain parts of the bible (hence, edit the damn thing and publish your own) or you want others to believe in things that you don't. Saying "the entire bible is sacred" is dumb unless you want to go out stoning women, etc. That's what the newer testaments were FOR and nobody's bothered to update them in hundreds of years despite it all changing again.
Either the bible is sacred and "correct" in your religion and therefore the word of God in it is what you should follow, or it isn't. And if it isn't, then you need to highlight WHICH BITS aren't. And then you can't expect anyone to hold to even THOSE bits if you don't do that yourself (again, tolerance, etc.). And then you have to be open to the possibility that EVERY OTHER Christian on the planet should be able to do the same and hence come to their own values too. Rather than argue that the Bible is deathly sacred and never to be messed with.
Personally, I pay no attention to ANY prominent athiest. I've never read Dawkins in my life. Religion is just SO blah to me, mainly because of irrational and accusatory discussions like this within, what, two comments?, that I just don't care.
To be honest, I have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what religion most people I speak to, or even have heard of, are. People say things like "Oh, she's off today because it's a Jewish holiday" and I have no idea. Mainly because, to me, it makes no difference one way or another. I'm literally blind to it.
But I'm not blind to hypocrisy, unjustified anger, belief in the irrational, or plain contrarianism just because someone questions a belief. I've yet to EVER hear someone who's identified themselves as Christian to me say "Oh, that's cool, I never thought of it like that - I'm suppose I have a prejudice / preconcieved idea of that.. I'll have to think that through". Yet I've said it to THEM any number of times. First time was concerning Hell - if it's such a punishment, why is it allowed? The interpretation that Hell is merely a comparative feeling - of missing out on absolute Heaven, for instance - rather than a punishment designed as such. I was young, and that made me respect that person SO MUCH MORE, and think about it such that it sticks in my mind.
I don't BELIEVE it, but it's an interesting viewpoint and a great topic of discussion, and it's not hard to have an interesting, thoughtful discussion from opposing viewpoints over a glass of sherry in front of a fireplace without it turning into name-calling and insults.
However, you are acting as a prime example of exactly why I *don't* get into religious discourse without warning people that I don't tolerate childish arguments rather than a discussion of viewpoints whenever the subject is broached.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 12 2016, @08:17AM
And what religious life is trying to do is to provide us with tools for how to keep being the best version of ourselves.
muuuwaaahaaahaaahaaa... Oh, you're funny you... You're precious! Never grow up, kid, you won't like the real world...
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday October 12 2016, @05:21PM
Name one other equal hamburger with one-tenth the distribution and human investment in terms of work and preparation effort than the Big-Mac.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 11 2016, @07:11PM
Sure, understanding humanity's past is a pointless pursuit and adds nothing of value /s
All hail science, the answer to everything! Now get out there and produce some profit!
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 11 2016, @07:18PM
Oh, that's not what I meant... Understanding humanity's history most certainly is a worthwhile endeavour. It's a science a well, even... I think it's similar to dismissing the Greek Pantheon of gods, yet still be able to appreciate the culture, literature, architecture, accomplishments of the ancient Greeks.
The difference is that this is given more credence than it is worth because the number of believers in that piece of fiction is currently still above a certain threshold. I was just trying to point out that a "bible scholar" should not be given more credence or authority over anything than someone who calls him/herself a "Harry Potter Scholar" or a "Go the Fuck to Sleep [wikipedia.org]" scholar. It's all about books of fiction...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 11 2016, @07:40PM
Ok thanks, that is more clear. I am still going to play devil's advocate and say that it is worthwhile for the exact reason that so many people believe in it. At least they will have (hopefully) insightful feedback instead of taking some of the more disturbing passages literally. Our society is a product of our ancerstors' decisions, so just having some better insight into what they were thinking can help us understand problems today.
Sidenote: that website should be ashamed of its advertisements...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 11 2016, @07:44PM
At least they will have (hopefully) insightful feedback instead of taking some of the more disturbing passages literally.
While my hopes are similar to yours, I am pessimistic about those hopes...
(Hey, look at us, having a civilized discussion, on the internet even... whodathunk)
(Score: 2) by turgid on Tuesday October 11 2016, @07:28PM
How many wars have been fought over Harry Potter? How many people burned at the stake? How many crusades? Will these scrolls spill the beans about Jesus' family? How many children did he have? Wives? That will be truly entertaining.
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent [wikipedia.org].
(Score: 2) by Bot on Tuesday October 11 2016, @07:37PM
> Believing books cause wars
We are at a cargo cult level of naivety here.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 11 2016, @07:40PM
Yes, believing in those books does indeed require a high level of naivety...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 11 2016, @09:26PM
Not BOT person, but its not the books which cause the wars, they are only the justification some assholes use for war.
GOD WILLS IT!
** God wills it **
Its all for the greater good!
** The greater good **
SHUT IT!
(Score: 5, Interesting) by TrumpetPower! on Tuesday October 11 2016, @07:47PM
Yes -- and they already have...but not in the way Christians are hoping for. And I don't mean in the tabloid sense of salacious gossip.
You see, the Scrolls are actual original pieces of papyrus / whatever from Judea penned before, during, and after the time of Jesus's life...and they contain not one offhand mention of him or his antics. They are entirely unsullied by any trace of Jesus in any form whatsoever.
Philo of Alexandria was old enough to have been Joseph's older brother, and his writing career extended well beyond the end of Pilate's reign. And he did write of Jesus...but only of the ancient demigod (the one in Zechariah 6, the Prince of Peace, Crowned with Many Crowns, the Rising, etc.). And Philo equated Jesus with his own theological construction of the Hellenistic Logos. Of Jesus's physical manifestation at the time he was waxing poetical about him...Philo is perfectly ignorant.
Cheers,
b&
All but God can prove this sentence true.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by PartTimeZombie on Tuesday October 11 2016, @08:30PM
For what it's worth, I work with three Zoroastrians and as far as they're concerned the Jesus stories are lifted almost wholesale from their traditions.
There is no doubt the ancient Jews had contact with Zoroastrians, as it was the dominant religion of the various Iranian empires up until the Muslim conquests.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by TrumpetPower! on Wednesday October 12 2016, @12:08AM
It's not so much that they were lifted wholesale from Zoroastrianism or any other preceding religion...as that they're bog-standard common ancient theology. Pick any Mediterranean Pagan demigod and you'll find overlap with Jesus one way or another. With the Osiris / Dionysus death / resurrection / salvation variants, it's especially obvious...but, then again, so, too with the Divine Messenger gods like Mercury.
If you want a great example in the form of a laundry list of righteous Christian outrage, do a search within Justin Martyr's works for "sons of Jupiter." He was writing in the second century, the first of the Christian Apologists...and his big obsession was all the Pagan precursors to Jesus whom, Justin complained, were invented by evil daemons with the power of foresight who knew Jesus was coming and who wished to lead honest men astray, mostly by convincing them that Jesus was just another Johnny-come-lately.
Even the Eucharist, Justin bemoans, was thus stolen in advance by the cult of Mithra. Those knowledgeable of Christian scripture will note that the Eucharist is the closest thing to biographical detail to be found in the authentic Pauline Epistles....
Cheers,
b&
All but God can prove this sentence true.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 12 2016, @04:09AM
Yeah, but don't tell Christians their savior is just a stand-in for the Sun...
(Score: 2, Disagree) by mcgrew on Wednesday October 12 2016, @05:50PM
You're wrong. [wikipedia.org]
mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
(Score: 3, Insightful) by TrumpetPower! on Wednesday October 12 2016, @06:49PM
Josephus wasn't even born until after Philo died -- never mind that even the Catholic Church admits the main passage about Jesus is a blatant forgery and that the secondary passage is clearly about Jesus ben Damneus, not Jesus ben Joseph.
If you wish to be honest with yourself, you will admit that your faith is, as Paul described it in Hebrews 11:1, "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Had you solid evidence of the life and miracles of Jesus, you'd not need faith in them. Instead, you see not and yet hope for their substance.
If you're unhappy with the fact that you rely not on fact but faith, then your argument is with yourself and your ontology, not with the facts. But if your faith truly is paramount, why are you so desperate to convince others of things that are so unashamedly unsupported by facts?
Cheers,
b&
All but God can prove this sentence true.
(Score: 3, Funny) by VLM on Tuesday October 11 2016, @08:05PM
How many wars have been fought over Harry Potter? How many people burned at the stake? How many crusades?
To be fair, they have a 2000 year head start. Give H.P. fans a bit of time to catch up.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 11 2016, @08:14PM
I, for one, look forward to the ravening horde of Hufflepuffs sweeping through the major populated areas of Antarctica.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by bob_super on Tuesday October 11 2016, @09:03PM
Actually, more than a handful of zealots keep fighting to this day to keep the HP books out of their children's libraries, for there was no other source of tales to corrupt the weak minds with sorcery before they were written.
Which month are we in, again?
(Score: 2) by turgid on Wednesday October 12 2016, @08:10AM
It hasn't taken Jedi long to catch on :-)
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent [wikipedia.org].
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Wednesday October 12 2016, @05:46PM
No war was fought for religion, despite that's the reason given by the psychopaths who wage them. ALL wars are fought for money and power (or keeping someone else from grabbing money and power) and nothing more. If you think ISIS has anything to do with Islam, you're naive. IT'S ABOUT THE MONEY.
Likewise the witch burning (most were hanged): religion was just an excuse to kill someone you hated, despite the fact that the bible explicitly forbids it. Death penalty? The Bible says you need two eyewitnesses to to the crime to put someone to death. I doubt any of those hanged witches (read some history, son, hanging was common, burning VERY rare) had two eyewitnesses to them turning anyone into a newt (except perhaps Mr. Gingrich).
mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 12 2016, @02:37PM
If they found an authentic 2000 year old Harry Potter manuscript, that indeed would be a discovery that would dwarf even the biggest archaeological findings up to now. It would certainly question a lot of things we are taking for granted.
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Wednesday October 12 2016, @05:37PM
The Torah is mostly Hebrew history, told as the ancients saw it. Harry Potter? Religion has nothing to do with magic, and history, even when incorrect, is nonfiction.
<sarcasm>Yeah, that has no value at all...
mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org